Processing time on Lvl III

[jeders]

Ok, I'm pretty sure this has been answered here within the last year, but I can't seem to find it. How long should/does it usually take for the form 24 for level 3 to be processed?

My situation is this, about 10 weeks ago, another member of my squadron and I completed our Level 3 and submitted our F24's. about two to two and a half weeks after that, his was posted to eServices. Five weeks after mine was submitted, however, there still had been no movement on it by wing. Finally at the beginning of June wing said they just received it, in other words they lost it and didn't really care. For two weeks it sat on the wing admins desk. Now it has been sitting with the Wing CC for signature for two weeks, or at least I have to assume that because now wing is just ignoring me.

I know this isn't normal, but is there a time limit that wing is supposed to act on these things by?

[Thrashed]

I'm six months and waiting. I'm wondering if this professional development stuff is worth it.

[Tubacap]

I think your finding a lot of this sort of thing.  This might be an area where computer validation should be considered as good as an actual signature.  It is way easier to look at qualifications that are all in the computer somewhere, upload any information that is not included, and then have it go through a validation path.  I don't think a lot of this lag time is intentional, I think it is just there is no centralized desk, and a computer interface can provide that. 

I just sent in four CAPF 2as today for the Wing CC to sign.  They came back right away, but that is an awful lot for one guy to do if I'm sending him four and someone else sends him stuff.  It would be way easier to click yes on a checkbox for things that don't need to be legally signed.

I'm sure Colgan will have some insight!

[DBlair]

Mine was posted on eServices within (can't remember exactly) maybe 2 weeks.

The certificate was an entirely different story-- I received it later that year when presented (delivered) by USPS, so much for an official presentation or making it feel like much of an accomplishment. 

In your situation, I'm thinking that it probably sat on several desks for a while, each time under a stack of other papers until they finally noticed it again-- seems to unfortunately be very common. To my knowledge, there is no time-limit as I've heard some horror stories of around a year or longer. I'd say to check on it every so often and have commanders encourage things along.

[jimmydeanno]

When I did mine, about 4 years ago, it took 2 days.  YMMV.

[a2capt]

It took about 3 days for my Level IV to happen, and that was within the last few months,  IIRC,  and the Level III was even less, back then. We did it all via eServices. No Form 24. Perhaps thats the problem here? Something that can actually get lost.

[jeders]

I'm six months and waiting. I'm wondering if this professional development stuff is worth it.

Wow, guess I shouldn't stress 2 and a half months so much then.

When I did mine, about 4 years ago, it took 2 days.  YMMV.

At first glance I thought you were saying that it took 4 years to process. I'm glad to hear that some wings are on the ball when it comes to the sorts of things.

[ßτε]

It took about 3 days for my Level IV to happen, and that was within the last few months,  IIRC,  and the Level III was even less, back then. We did it all via eServices. No Form 24. Perhaps thats the problem here? Something that can actually get lost.

I'm pretty sure it cannot be done in eServices. But the CAPF 24 can be submitted in an email with electronic signatures. It shouldn't take much longer than a few days if done this way. If you are submitting a paper CAPF 24, I can see it taking up to a month. If it is more than that, you should probably follow up with the wing PDO. 

[Eclipse]

Assuming all required substantiation is included, anything more than a week is unacceptable.

There isn't an echelon in this organization that is doing more than a handful a month, and most wings less than a few a year.

NHQ posts them same or next day, so the lead time is in front of that, and artificially imposed via either inertia or negligence.

[Patterson]

I just sent in four CAPF 2as today for the Wing CC to sign.  They came back right away, but that is an awful lot for one guy to do if I'm sending him four and someone else sends him stuff.  It would be way easier to click yes on a checkbox for things that don't need to be legally signed.

Wow!  I must send any items needing action by higher HQ to my Group, wait for them to approve, then they send it to Wing and if I am lucky they send it Maxwell.  When it is something I must get Region to sign off on, I figure I have a fifty-fifty chance.

As a Squadron Commander, I get really tired of the "wait and hope" game.  I wish I could send my items to the Wing Commander directly!!

I have been waiting on my Level IV for nearly 5 months.  It is truly a shame that before computers, CAP seemed to act much quicker on these types of things!

[Tubacap]

Wow!  I must send any items needing action by higher HQ to my Group, wait for them to approve, then they send it to Wing and if I am lucky they send it Maxwell.  When it is something I must get Region to sign off on, I figure I have a fifty-fifty chance.

As a Squadron Commander, I get really tired of the "wait and hope" game.  I wish I could send my items to the Wing Commander directly!!

I have been waiting on my Level IV for nearly 5 months.  It is truly a shame that before computers, CAP seemed to act much quicker on these types of things!

The only reason is I'm the Wing Staff Officer that takes care of these things, and for finds, the approving authority is the Wing CC as opposed to all echelons.

[Al Sayre]

Whenever possible, use the electronic form and send it via email.  Attach the form and scan in and attach any supporting documents and then in your email quote the appropriate note from the forms page.  If it doesn't show up at national, forward the original email again and add something polite like "you must have missed this the first time I sent it..." Most the one I've processed as a SQ/CC took less than a week to post at NHQ.

[EMT-83]

When submitting scanned documents, make sure they are very high quality. They will be printed, signed and scanned again and emailed to NHQ. I've had forms that were of such poor quality that they couldn't be read. Then the member takes offense that I ask for the original documents.

Proof of attendance at conferences is the item that holds up more Level 3 applications than anything else. An actual certificate of attendance or a participation letter from your CC will speed things along. Plan ahead – get the documentation at the time of the conference.

I do PD paperwork twice per month, which is how often I meet with the Wing CC. I happen to think that's a reasonable time frame. Once NHQ gets the applications, Level 3 and 4 show up in eServices within a couple of days. The actual certificate arrives within a couple of weeks.

Level 5 goes into the black hole at Region; they can take several months, and then just show up randomly.

[EMT-83]

It took about 3 days for my Level IV to happen, and that was within the last few months,  IIRC,  and the Level III was even less, back then. We did it all via eServices. No Form 24. Perhaps thats the problem here? Something that can actually get lost.

Level 2 through 5 all require a Form 24. Level 2 is submitted directly to NHQ by the squadron.

[Eclipse]

It took about 3 days for my Level IV to happen, and that was within the last few months,  IIRC,  and the Level III was even less, back then. We did it all via eServices. No Form 24. Perhaps thats the problem here? Something that can actually get lost.

Where in eServices?  PD levels are one of the last vestiges that require "paper" (virtual or otherwise), because most require submitting
verification of things like conferences or similar which aren't recorded in eServices.

[Grumpy]

Mine was posted on eServices within (can't remember exactly) maybe 2 weeks.

The certificate was an entirely different story-- I received it later that year when presented (delivered) by USPS, so much for an official presentation or making it feel like much of an accomplishment. 

In your situation, I'm thinking that it probably sat on several desks for a while, each time under a stack of other papers until they finally noticed it again-- seems to unfortunately be very common. To my knowledge, there is no time-limit as I've heard some horror stories of around a year or longer. I'd say to check on it every so often and have commanders encourage things along.

You shouldn't have to do that but, unfortunately, you do.  I had a member get his Level III handed to him by the Group Commander while at a SAREX.  The Group/CC walked up to him in passing and handed him an envelope as if to say, "Oh, by the way, here".

Our squadron commander finished his in February.  He's still waiting.

[a2capt]

Thats what I meant, electronic Form 24, emailed via "the chain", not eServices. In 3 days and it showed on eServices, is where I got the eServices from. About a month later the certificate came in the mail to group HQ and when I saw the group CC at the evaluated SAREX, he presented it to me. Odd setting, but still cool, it worked. Some people saw it.

[Grumpy]

That's what I meant, electronic Form 24, emailed via "the chain", not eServices. In 3 days and it showed on eServices, is where I got the eServices from. About a month later the certificate came in the mail to group HQ and when I saw the group CC at the evaluated SAREX, he presented it to me. Odd setting, but still cool, it worked. Some people saw it.

Regulations say that certain awards will be awarded by certain individuals, commanders, politicians (Yuk), etc.  I haven't seen our group commander at a squadron meeting in his four years as Group CC.  Have you?

[Eclipse]

Regulations say that certain awards will be awarded by certain individuals, commanders, politicians (Yuk), etc.  I haven't seen our group commander at a squadron meeting in his four years as Group CC.  Have you?

Only for cadets.

Have you had any Mitchells in that time?  That is a Group CC's award.

[Grumpy]

Regulations say that certain awards will be awarded by certain individuals, commanders, politicians (Yuk), etc.  I haven't seen our group commander at a squadron meeting in his four years as Group CC.  Have you?

Only for cadets.

Have you had any Mitchells in that time?  That is a Group CC's award.

Yes, we've had several.  We held them and held them and finally gave them out ourselves.  The good news is that with the automated system, they are recorded in eServices.  The whole system needs work.  I'm hoping after August things will change.

[Eclipse]

Yes, we've had several.  We held them and held them and finally gave them out ourselves.

That's just wrong, and a case where cages should be rattled at the Wing, then, and if they don't want to force the issue, provide someone to
present the award.

Mitchell is the highest a lot of cadets ever get, and it does represent a fair amount of effort and engagement.

[Grumpy]

I agree 150%.  Like I say, there are going to be some changes coming up.  I hope they're for the best.

[a2capt]

Yup, and we've had others present them, too. But there are times when after the things have been sitting in the closet and they are now going on 2 and 3 pips.. that you just gotta do what you gotta do. When your awards banquet comes around and it's gone on that long, and they are even on the invitation list and they still don't show.. what do you do?

[bosshawk]

An interesting group of posts about awards.  I deliberately had my levels three, four and five mailed to me, as I had an issue with the Wing CC.  Then, I was awarded an ESA and the Wing CC grabbed it and held it for 18 months: claimed that he was waiting to see me to award it.  The Region CC refused to help.  After I left CAP, I elevated the issue to the National Commander.  She demanded the award from the Wing CC, handed it to the Region CC and ordered him to mail it to me.  He did and I got my award.  It is resting comfortably in my bottom drawer, along with my Levels III, IV and V certificates.

I am happily out of CAP, mostly due to crap like what I described above.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

I think a lot of this depends on the Professional Development staff at group and higher. Training and the awards that follow are the job. Why hold an SLS, CLC, etc if your not going to make sure the graduates get the recognition that goes with it. The Senior Program Award certificates get mailed to PD. They need to follow up on getting them presented.

[jeders]

I will say that in TXWG, they are usually pretty good about getting awards and certs. out to people and not holding onto them for a long time. Hopefully this will continue with our new commander.

And yes, everything was done electronically, no trees were harmed in the submission of this award.

[Grumpy]

bosshawk, I'm sorry to say that I have to agree with you on this.  It's still going on and one individual has such a hatred for our unit that it's down right ugly.  Spelled with a capital "UG".

[SARDOC]

I finished my Level III in April and it posted in eServices in about a week.

[arajca]

Something I've seen add to processing time is commanders who have an awards committee review EVERY award that comes through them. Committee meets once a month or quarter (some still haven't figured out this whole electronic process thingamagigy yet) to review every CAPF 2A, 24, and 120 that is sent up the chain. If they get it 5 minutes after the meeting, it sits until the next meeting.
Then up to group, wing, and region for repeat performances.

For higher level awards (ESA, DSA, and up), this type of review, if done promptly is appropriate. For "do this, get that" awards, it's not appropriate. What are they going to do, turn down the Level II, III, etc award even though all the requirements have been met?

[a2capt]

The way the winds of politics play, I wouldn't put it past some people to just sit on applications because of the source. When something is denied, they should say why, right away. But if they play never got it, then they have not to worry about it at all.

[jimmydeanno]

I've seen commanders sit on PD paperwork because they didn't want their subordinate passing themin the PD program.  Kind of petty and pathetic if you ask me, but crap like that does happen.

[bosshawk]

Just to expand on my situation: My Level Two sat on the Wing PD Officers desk almost a year: he was waiting for me to come to Wing to award it to me.  In my 18 yrs in CAP, I went to Wing Hqs twice(both times for inspections when I was the CDO).  I finally had a friend on the Wing Staff mail it to me.  Learned on that one and had the same friend intercept the next three and mail them to me.  I got all of those in good times and I am not sure that the PDO or the Wing CC ever knew that I had gotten them.  When you live 250 miles from Wing Hq, you don't tend to go there very often, especially for an award.

In my case, it was a plain case of a Wing CC who had it in for me, even though I had run one of the Wing's most successful programs for a long time.  He didn't even see the 120 for my ESA when it went to Region.  Of course, I wasn't a cadet and he only paid attention to cadet things.

[PA Guy]

Of course, I wasn't a cadet and he only paid attention to cadet things.

I think there are a fair number of CP folks in CAWG that would argue just the opposite.  As to your, Grumpy's and others  general sentiment on this topic I agree..

[Grumpy]

I'm trying to be polite here.  I have left out the gory details.  I tend to tell it like it is and that would not be nice.

[MSG Mac]

One holdup is several respondents have indicated they are sending the F24's through Group and there is no requirement or place on the form for a Group Commander, unless you are a member of the Group (not TDY)

[Grumpy]

One holdup is several respondents have indicated they are sending the F24's through Group and there is no requirement or place on the form for a Group Commander, unless you are a member of the Group (not TDY)

Or have a Group/CC that is a micro manager and has put down the edict that EVERYTHING goes through him.

[Eclipse]

Or have a Group/CC that is a micro manager and has put down the edict that EVERYTHING goes through him.

Some of that is shielding both sides from each other, which is the Group's job.

I didn't want to see 24's, but I did want everything else passing over my desk on the way to Wing, since I wanted to make sure
things were correct and solid before they went up to prevent delays.  A day or two with me might prevent a month long
"wrong, send it back" circle of love.

It is somewhat shocking what some CC's would send up as "complete"...

There were / are more than a couple people in my wing who insisted on using the US Mail or fax  for documents even though they
were told in short sentences with pro words that this almost guaranteed a delay or loss, with some CC's in the wing, myself included,
refusing to even consider hardcopy documents.

My favorites were when people sent things "signature required" to me or wing, requiring that I physically go to the USPO to
retrieve a 2A or CAPDL app that they had spent $5 to insure, return receipt, etc., only to find they hadn't signed it, etc.

[arajca]

One holdup is several respondents have indicated they are sending the F24's through Group and there is no requirement or place on the form for a Group Commander, unless you are a member of the Group (not TDY)

Or have a Group/CC that is a micro manager and has put down the edict that EVERYTHING goes through him.

Or have a wing/cc that says everything follows the chain and will send the 24s back to group of approval before approving them.

[wuzafuzz]

My Level III papers were submitted electronically to wing on 6/27.     It'll be interesting to see how long it takes.

[Thrashed]

My L3 just posted to eServices! It's about time.

[Grumpy]

My Level III papers were submitted electronically to wing on 6/27.     It'll be interesting to see how long it takes.

As far as the new electronic system goes, I'm as guilty as anyone of us old guys who might be fighting the change.  Electronic signatures!  Who ever heard of such a thing.  I find that people can sit on approving electronic paper as wel as hard copy. 

[bosshawk]

And, I suspect, Grumpy, that it can get lost just as easily.  Just think, you don't need as many big, black trash bins anymore.

[Grumpy]

And, I suspect, Grumpy, that it can get lost just as easily.  Just think, you don't need as many big, black trash bins anymore.

It's called the delete button.

[EMT-83]

... and you press the Forward button, and keep sending it!

[jeders]

Quick update, after nearly three months since it was first submitted, my level 3 finally posted to eServices. Now let's see how long they hold up my promotion.

[Grumpy]

Quick update, after nearly three months since it was first submitted, my level 3 finally posted to eServices. Now let's see how long they hold up my promotion.

If you've jumped through all the hoops, and it's a duty performance promotion, you can do it line and get promoted just as fast as it takes the approving authorities click the button.  Could as short as five minutes to who know how long.

[jeders]

Oh I know, it's already been initiated by my SQCC in eServices. But then again, it should take all of five minutes to electronically "sign" a F24. So we'll see.

[Grumpy]

Good luck and congratulations on the Level III.  We have a great program.  It's just too bad we have to rely on people and their personalities to run it, if you know what I mean.

[Flyer]

Just finished my OBC for Level 2. Within a week I was e-mailed back with a certificate.