Nominating self for award?

[NCRblues]

JC0004 "I also think it is quite unnecessary to say the things that you've said (under both accounts) of the OP."

Getting off topic seems unpopular, but since you threw this crazy accusation out there:

I only have one account on CAPtalk: anonymous former c/col

The 3digitspaatz person is not me -  I am not a 3 digit Spaatz.

Does it surprise you that 2 people would have the same opinion?  Don't accuse me of doing something that violates the code of conduct on this account.  I think it's very clear I believe in honor and integrity.

Are you showering us with your wisdom of years as a senior members in this organization?.... oh wait, i guess not, seeing as you have none.

Its always nice to hear from our Spaatz cadets that get triple diamond fever. I might report it to the CDC and see what they think about containing it....

[JC004]

That's about enough of all that.  "anonymous former c/col" is wasting our energy and that's silly for us to engage in.  Clearly there's a problem here and that can be taken care of elsewhere.

Back to the topic...

As someone who has written, reviewed / signed, and / or up-channeled a fair amount of 120's, I have no issue with a member preparing either form itself
or a narrative supporting it, etc.   In some cases it is the only way to get all the details necessary to tell the "whole story"...

...however...

...the person who is being submitted for the decoration should never be the one signing as "requester", regardless of who actually typed the form, and
that includes for promotions and service awards.

The requester should always be "someone else", and the approver always the commander, especially at the unit level.

I pretty much agree with Eclipse here, I guess. 

I've been asked to write recommendations for awards for myself twice (not in CAP) because I was supposed to be the person who knew the details best.  Luckily, I sucked someone else into doing it because I felt silly doing it and he knew enough about what I do to get it done well.  INITIATING my own award would be strange for me, but I guess that I can see the position of the folks who have Commanders who don't pay enough attention to awards.

I also can see the position of the folks who see others getting awards for what they view as much less than what they contribute, and those people feeling like they should get one if the other did.  WIWAC, I remember a lot of cadets getting upset about other cadets getting Commander's Commendations for just winning the color guard competition.  I know some of those cadets worked on things like program development and were offended that their contributions didn't get any attention from the SMs.  I fixed that in one case by writing my first F120...  I would think that this kind of thing would make some people feel like they should write their own if nobody else would do it.

[Eclipse]

I'd be curious, since we're on the topic, what the OP felt was so significant that it deserves a dec (to the point of being frustrated and writing his own).

Without any comment of the respective service (since I have no idea), competent execution of one's duties, even at the expense of copious amounts of time, do not necessarily rise to the level of decoration.  This is understandably frustrating, especially for new members, who see people they believe are
doing "less", yet they have more jelly beans and less open wall space.

If you read the actual guidelines and requirements for decorations, it can be pretty hard to actually meet the level of expectation for just about anything,
since the minimum is generally "over and above their peers".

On the one hand, just putting in the time and effort for most unit staff jobs is "commendable" in the abstract, especially since we're all volunteers.  On the other hand, getting past the gate of "minimum expectations" can be pretty hard when you look at what staffers are supposed to be doing as a matter of course.  The fact that it is "a lot of work" doesn't mean it is any different than others in the same boat, and in some cases it is because the
unit is so undermanned that people are burning themselves out wearing 5 hats.

[lordmonar]

I don't quite understand your position there Eclipse.

Either the standard is work up to such and such level.....and then everyone who reaches that level gets an award.

Or you look around you and Officers X, Y, Z getting awards for this level........but you do the same or more and get nothing.

I have read the guide lines and it is not hard to meet any of them.

Remember.......just volunteering and then doing the job.....any job already puts you above 50% or the rank and file of most CAP members.

So by using the average member theory of "above and beyond"  simply doing your job competantly already puts you in the upper percentile.

[ol'fido]

I see it as the difference between an objective standard(ex. Excuse me,sir, I have been a member for two years as of the 25th. Here is my 2a for a Red Service ribbon. Could I get your signature please.) and a subjective standard(ex. Excuse me , Sir, I feel that I have done some extraordinary work this past year that should be recognized the CAP Achievement Medal. Here is my CAPF 120. Could you sign it and give me my medal at the next awards ceremony. Thanks so much.)

Good, bad, or indifferent, we are at the mercy of the commanders whims in these cases. If they choose not to recognize you for outstanding work that is their perogative. If they feel your work doesn't stand out from the pack they may not feel you deserve to be recognized. How you deal with that is up to you. You can complain about it. You can transfer to another unit that is more "awards friendly". You can go join organizations that have nothing better to do than to hand out awards to their members.  I personally would feel about 2" tall putting myself in for an award, but that's just me being "subjective".

[JC004]

On a related note, I think this may be an opportunity for our personnel people, command people, and the like here to consider maybe using the Certificate of Appreciation more often (but not like crazy, so it becomes meaningless).  There is no ribbon, but it's a nice thing to give someone and will please most.

At least...once the unauthorized Triangle Thingy logo is off of it, it will be a nice thing.

You can also do your own unit awards and I encourage that as well.  As someone who came from a unit in which the members didn't get a lot of awards they deserve, I encourage all commanders to consider a unit awards program and CAP awards in general. 

The President's Volunteer Service Award is a good program to use for cadets and seniors.  The Congressional Award is great for cadets and young SMs.

[Spaceman3750]

JC0004 "I also think it is quite unnecessary to say the things that you've said (under both accounts) of the OP."

Getting off topic seems unpopular, but since you threw this crazy accusation out there:

I only have one account on CAPtalk: anonymous former c/col

The 3digitspaatz person is not me -  I am not a 3 digit Spaatz.

Does it surprise you that 2 people would have the same opinion?  Don't accuse me of doing something that violates the code of conduct on this account.  I think it's very clear I believe in honor and integrity.

They don't go by opinions, they go by IP addresses. So unless you're sharing your computer...

Or a network. Similarly, at work, I can post on one day and post from the same computer the next day and not have the same IP address - we have a handful of external addresses.

[Eclipse]

Remember.......just volunteering and then doing the job.....any job already puts you above 50% or the rank and file of most CAP members.

So by using the average member theory of "above and beyond"  simply doing your job competantly already puts you in the upper percentile.

You missed my point - as an aggregate we're all commendable since we're all volunteers, but within that paradigm there are seat warmers and
those who go above and beyond.

Competent performance is the expectation, not something which is commendable within this context.

Probably the best example of this is the SUI and the expectations it sets for staff members.  A legit "Satisfactory" for a unit takes about 10 people
at  minimum focusing fairly heavily on just their staff jobs.  Anything above a sat means they are exceeding the checked boxes, probably
creating some new processes, and in general providing both their members and CAP, Inc. with a high ROI.

Outstanding?  I have yet to see a unit or wing that actually warranted it, and I've conducted and reviewed quite a few SUI's, and a few CI's as well.
This doesn't mean the efforts to maintain the squadron were unappreciated or unnecessary, etc., it simply means that the bar of "sat" is so high
already that most units have to reach pretty hard just to hit that level.  That's probably why the terminology was changed to "Successful", because
it doesn't marginalize the hard work of the unit staff as badly as "satisfactory" did, but it's still the same thing.

The same logic applies to staffers. 

Take a CAP mission pilot.  It's a far commitment and effort to become a Form 91 pilot, and moreso to maintain it. 
First, you have to be a pilot, which is no small feat these days, then you have to have a couple hundred hours, knock down a F5, and work through
2 Sqtrs (at least).  For most members that is a 1-2 year+ process.

But when you're done, you're "just" one of hundreds of other pilots, and while keeping up your hours, certs, and re-currency may be a lot of work,
especially if you have a life outside CAP, doing so "just" keeps you on the flight roster.  It takes more again to be considered for decs, be that
mission success, some outstanding related single achievement or "other". Granted "pilot" isn't actually a staff job, it was just a handy example.

I have to say that at the unit level, especially, it is very difficult to participate in activities that have the scope, sustained effort, or overall impact
to warrant decorations.  Most of the members I know who have been decorated have received them because of, or related to, activities outside
the normal routine of unit meetings and squadron administration, myself included.

[adamblank]

I would say as long as it is not out of control, write the ribbon...if ribbons make someone do awesome work for CAP, its not my top reason I want you doing great things, but it doesn't limit the organization in any way.

[anonymous former c/col]

JC0004 "I also think it is quite unnecessary to say the things that you've said (under both accounts) of the OP."

Getting off topic seems unpopular, but since you threw this crazy accusation out there:

I only have one account on CAPtalk: anonymous former c/col

The 3digitspaatz person is not me -  I am not a 3 digit Spaatz.

Does it surprise you that 2 people would have the same opinion?  Don't accuse me of doing something that violates the code of conduct on this account.  I think it's very clear I believe in honor and integrity.

We do not make crazy accusations.

If clear, it would only be through the words of an anonymous individual, not through actions or in any way be tied to the reputation of a known person.

Crap.

This is reference to the above quote:

You made a false accusation.  Since you just admitted in PM that you know I am not posting under a different name, how about a public  apology, or a public admission you made a false accusation?


Mod Edit: Posts combined

[Майор Хаткевич]

What a great example of a Spaatz Prior...

[SarDragon]

I keep wondering what the Kool-Aid flavor is. 

[JC004]

I combined the posts for you since I think that is what you were trying to do.

Based on the information I have, there is an issue here that you can discuss with MIKE.

We are not discussing this on this thread anymore.  This thread is about awards.

[anonymous former c/col]

This is what it comes back to everytime with the same group of people:

1) I was a Spaatz cadet.

2) I am not, have not been, and will not be a senior.

In your eyes I don't have years of SM experience so my opinion as a former cadet doesn't matter.  My Spaatz must be tarnished from not going SM.  Nice message as a SM.  Cadets are inferior to you?

The moderator made a false accusation in a public forum, and it is not unreasonable to ask for an apology or admission.

As far as how this reflects on my status as a Spaatz... do you want my Spaatz crap?  I'm ready to throw it away with the way some of you attack people on this forum.

[SarDragon]

This is what it comes back to everytime with the same group of people:

1) I was a Spaatz cadet.

That's great. It means that you spent a lot of time and effort to achieve a worthwhile goal.

2) I am not, have not been, and will not be a senior.

Therein lies your problem. No matter how much time you spent as a cadet, you haven't "walked a mile in a senior member's shoes" to give you credibility in that area. They are two very different worlds, and you need to experience each to truly realize the differences.

In your eyes I don't have years of SM experience so my opinion as a former cadet doesn't matter.

Your opinion is important, as that of a former cadet. See above.

My Spaatz must be tarnished from not going SM.

Not really. That's a personal choice. I know others who have done the same thing, for their own reasons, and I have no isses with them, either. I left the program for six years, but came back because of the contributions I thought I could make.

Nice message as a SM.  Cadets are inferior to you?

Nope. Used to be one myself.

The moderator made a false accusation in a public forum, and it is not unreasonable to ask for an apology or admission.

And you have done nothing, as far as I know, to disprove the accusation. There are two people posting from the same IP. That generally indicates the same computer. It is highly unlikely that a random IP would come up for two different people, using different computers, on such a small forum. Do you have any explanations?

As far as how this reflects on my status as a Spaatz... do you want my Spaatz crap?  I'm ready to throw it away with the way some of you attack people on this forum.

Again, a personal choice.

In your initial post, you asked a couple of questions about days gone by, and were welcomed as a Spaatzen, and encouraged to resume participation in a couple of different ways. Then you got a really harsh attitude and a chip on your shoulder when some of the posts apparently offended you. Someone questioned your personal perception of the grand CAP timeline, and we almost had WW III. The Oakley thread was similarly disastrous.

Coming in here and throwing your weight around in a manner I perceive as "starry-eyed idealist" is NOT the way to win friends and influence people. BTDT, lost the t-shirt.

I have my own problems on here, and get called on them regularly. The tenor of my responses, however, differs significantly from yours. You might want to think about that a bit.

CAP is an imperfect world, but many of the folks on here are trying to improve things. We don't all agree. In some areas, there are almost as many opinions as there are active posters. But we still try.

[lordmonar]

This is what it comes back to everytime with the same group of people:

1) I was a Spaatz cadet.

Good on you....

2) I am not, have not been, and will not be a senior.

Then what are you doing here then?  No seriously.....you want to come here and tell us how to do things...and we are all doing wrong in your opinion.....why not put your money/time/effort where your mouth is?

In your eyes I don't have years of SM experience so my opinion as a former cadet doesn't matter.

Just because you graduate High School does not mean you are qualified to be teacher. 

My Spaatz must be tarnished from not going SM.

One wonders where we went wrong.....if you got to Spaatz and did not develope into someone who wants to give back to the organisation that helped form you as are today

Nice message as a SM.

How would you know....you've never been one nor sat on this side of the fence.

Cadets are inferior to you?

Well.....yes.....that's why the are cadets....if they were superior to me or my peers they would be called senior members.

The moderator made a false accusation in a public forum, and it is not unreasonable to ask for an apology or admission.

Sure if someone has made a false accusation....then one should own up to it.  However.....that's the flip side of dealing with anonymous people....you have no reputation to damage....ergo don't rate a full apology.

As far as how this reflects on my status as a Spaatz... do you want my Spaatz crap?  I'm ready to throw it away with the way some of you attack people on this forum.

Well.....let's be honest.....you started it.

[lordmonar]

Dave....you are reading my mind again!

[SarDragon]

I don't know what to say. 

[JC004]

It seems to me, over the time that you have been here, you have got an eye for an eye.  You started from almost the beginning with questioning people’s integrity, honor, leadership ability, and the like.  You personally attacked people like SARDragon.  People responded to you as you responded to them. 

You said things like “shameful,” and absolutely attacked people for applying for the Oakley program, quoting part of their page but not the information about the other individuals who are eligible.

You now seem more reasoned after MANY revisions (dozens) to your entries on this thread.  Now you can say that you are being attacked, now that you’ve removed your things about coming here because of a “well-placed” person (who is obviously better than us), calling CAP “pathetic,” saying “Time for self-examination: Is CAP filling some hole in your life and self-esteem that normal adult life isn't fulfilling?,” and otherwise meeting the expectations that people ALREADY have of you.

In my personal opinion, SARDragon and lordmonar are correct.  You have attacked people and the organization at the heart of who they are and what it is.  You’ve set this expectation of you since you started here and people have continuously reacted to you in the same way since you started with that.

In my moderator opinion, this thread has gotten out of control after I have warned twice about it going back on topic.  I hoped that after people had addressed your first attack, it would go back on track and stay there.  So my opinion there is that this thread must go for review by the senior moderators and is therefore temporarily LOCKED until they get to do that and either unlock it or fix what needs to be fixed.

As I have already said, you can take your issue up with MIKE.  The moderators here are fair, look at facts, consider things, VERY rarely block anyone, and if they make a mistake, they fix it.

Until then, if you feel the need to discuss what happens to Spaatz cadets who don’t become senior members but show up on forums decades later, start a thread on that.

Keep the following in mind IAW the forum rules:
1. You may not go rehash a locked thread.  If they want to unlock it (and they may), then they will.
2. You may not "redact" or otherwise nuke your posts, as is ALREADY the rule here.