Snack food for thought

[arajca]

1. Why do seniors even need a pocket rocket? Seniors already have specialty track badges that cadets can't wear. What's the point of adopting one of their badges for seniors?

Not what I'm proposing. I'm proposing putting a star on the Yeager ribbon, not SM's wearing the Model Rocketry badge.

2. Combined recruiting ribbons? Like the idea. Set it at five. Clasps for each additional seven (May seem an off the wall number, but second award should take more work. They know what they need after the first one.)

Not so off the wall. The senior recruiting ribbon requires seven for the first award.

3. ES ribbon?
    a. Then people come to SAR-EX's to get a ribbon, rather than to actually maintain skills.
    b. Then there are some people that will get a patch, a badge (possibly two), and a ribbon for maintaining an ES specialty.
        1.  As far as that goes, it's inequitable.
        2.  Two, the military has a stipulation for decorations that you can not recieve more than one award for a single action. We should follow suit. It should make sense to people as to why.

a. If it motivates them to do training, what's the issue? The end result is the same - trained personnel. What about personnel who come to missions to get a ribbon? The SAR ribbon is just that. Yes, there are people who do that. For many of CAP's awards, there are people who will meet the requirements just so they can get the award. The higher purpose that most of us believe in doesn't apply to them.
b. You get badge(s) and the patch for qualifying for an ES rating. Once qualified, you never lose them - even if you are no longer currently qualified. For maintaining currency, you get nothing. Zip. Ziltch. Nada.
b.1. How? The requirement for the ribbon is the same for everyone - senior, cadet, base staff, GT, AC, etc.
b.2. How does this apply? Currently, a member getting their first ES rating gets a patch - this applies to all members. GTM, MO, MP get a badge and the same patch. Right there you've violated the 2-for-1 principle. My idea has the member earning the ribbon after participating in two training exerises AFTER receiving their first rating. So they've already received the patch and badge (if appropriate). Also, it doesn't matter how many days or sorties you participate in on an exercise, each exercise counts as one toward the ribbon - whether you're there for one day, two days, one sortie, five sorties, etc. For continued exercise participation, there currently is no form of acknowldgement or recognition.

[DNall]

Spacewings are a whole dif thing. I don't think we're going there. I'm tellin ya though, it'd be really good to combine badges & program specs w/ AFJROTC on this one. Absolutely no badge for adults, sticking to a device on Yeager, and I still say that should be for rocketry instructor (some training plus do the program a couple times).

On this recruiter ribbon thing. I really do think it's good to have the initial award for cadets set at 2. Like I said, that's about motivating them right out the gate. I tell ya what... make it 2 for cadets, 5 for adults on the initial, then both req 5 for additional clasps. For sure get that down to one ribbon though. Maybe use the other one in place of the HLS ribbon they're trying to get going. 

A longevity ribbon is fine, I got no problems with that. The membership ribbon is really the waste of space. You want to keep the red service (please rename it, Longevity ribbon?) & cut membership (please rename that too, CAP training ribbon?) then I'm good with that too.

I also vote NO on an ES ribbon. We got service ribbons (SaR, DR, CN, and now HLS coming, maybe border patrol too if that mission ever materializes). That's supposed to cover this aspect.

[Hawk200]

a. If it motivates them to do training, what's the issue? The end result is the same - trained personnel. What about personnel who come to missions to get a ribbon? The SAR ribbon is just that. Yes, there are people who do that. For many of CAP's awards, there are people who will meet the requirements just so they can get the award. The higher purpose that most of us believe in doesn't apply to them.

So we should pander to the lowest common denominator? That's lowering your standards. There really isn't anything else to call it. You would throw out a carrot to people to simply maintain the qualifications that they volunteered to do.  Are you changing your priorities from retaining people that want to do the job, to try to retain people by bribing them?

b. You get badge(s) and the patch for qualifying for an ES rating. Once qualified, you never lose them - even if you are no longer currently qualified. For maintaining currency, you get nothing. Zip. Ziltch. Nada.

Good point as far as badges go. Maybe we should reconsider that.  As far as the patch goes, 35-6 says "Current and qualified in accordance with CAPR 60-3, CAP Emergency Services Training and Operational Missions as a general emergency services member with one additional specialty qualification". So it's possible to lose it.

My idea has the member earning the ribbon after participating in two training exerises AFTER receiving their first rating....Also, it doesn't matter how many days or sorties you participate in on an exercise, each exercise counts as one toward the ribbon - whether you're there for one day, two days, one sortie, five sorties, etc. For continued exercise participation, there currently is no form of acknowldgement or recognition.

OK, I put aside the double award principle, and address the training excercise criteria. I pretty much have to ask: How do you think this will help? What purpose does it really serve? Recognition for practice?

Maybe I spent to much time in the military, but people rarely got decorations for participating in excercises, voluntarily or not. They got it for going above and beyond. They didn't get it for maintaining their skills.

Besides, how do propose smoothing down the ruffled feathers for the people that got Find ribbons, Saves, and Disaster Relief ribbons? They wouldn't be very happy about a SAR-EX ribbon. If you're going to stroke egos for SAR-EX participation, you have to account for the people that actually earned something on a real mission. Turns into a vicious cycle.

And just out of curiousity, if this ribbon was approved, would you receive it immediately, or would it take two of those excercises you were talking about?

[freeflight]

The Consumer Product Safety Commission requires that "G" power level model rocket motors of any kind, be sold only to persons age 18 or older, but there are no regulations prohibiting a younger person from assembling and flying a "G" motor. Rocket motors with more than 62.5 grams of propellant (a few large G motors and all motors H and above) are "High Power Rocket Motors" which cannot be purchased or flown by persons under age 18, and which also require a Low Explosive Users Permit from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. The minimum age for this permit is 21 years old. Refer to BATFE Explosives Law and Regulation, Sections 843 (b)(1) and 842 (d)(1). 

This would effectively put and end to the idea of high power rocketry for cadets seeing as most of them quit after they turn 18. I would suggest looking at the Arizona Wing's supplement to CAPR 50-20. It covers Cadets and Officers.

Personally I would love to get my Level One but I don't want the BATFE to be able to enter my house without a warrant which getting the permit will allow them to do.

As for the other ideas I don't have an opinion.

[CAPLAW]

While Vanguard is making the senior pocket rocket lets design and approve a Police badge for seniors that are LEO.

[Hawk200]

While Vanguard is making the senior pocket rocket lets design and approve a Police badge for seniors that are LEO.

Dude, that wasn't right.....


Funny, but not right...

[arajca]

a. If it motivates them to do training, what's the issue? The end result is the same - trained personnel. What about personnel who come to missions to get a ribbon? The SAR ribbon is just that. Yes, there are people who do that. For many of CAP's awards, there are people who will meet the requirements just so they can get the award. The higher purpose that most of us believe in doesn't apply to them.

So we should pander to the lowest common denominator? That's lowering your standards. There really isn't anything else to call it. You would throw out a carrot to people to simply maintain the qualifications that they volunteered to do.  Are you changing your priorities from retaining people that want to do the job, to try to retain people by bribing them

My idea has the member earning the ribbon after participating in two training exerises AFTER receiving their first rating....Also, it doesn't matter how many days or sorties you participate in on an exercise, each exercise counts as one toward the ribbon - whether you're there for one day, two days, one sortie, five sorties, etc. For continued exercise participation, there currently is no form of acknowldgement or recognition.

OK, I put aside the double award principle, and address the training excercise criteria. I pretty much have to ask: How do you think this will help? What purpose does it really serve? Recognition for practice?

Maybe I spent to much time in the military, but people rarely got decorations for participating in excercises, voluntarily or not. They got it for going above and beyond. They didn't get it for maintaining their skills. ?

Believe it or not, the recognition/reward practices from the fifties/sixties/seventies aren't applicable to most people today. A current generational trend is to expect recognition for doing what is expected. Many companies are struggling with this issue. The upper management expects that a lunch with the boss or a photo with the CEO provide sufficient incentive, however, for Gen X and Gen Y, those don't cut it.

When I was AD, I saw a number of folks getting awards and commendations for doing their job. It's not uncommon.

If recognition is bribery, why to we have the DR, SAREX, encampment, NCSA, Command Service, Red Service, etc ribbons? Do they not recognize members for doing what CAP wants?

How many folks actually get to use the skills they practice and maintain outside of training? We've noticed a downward trend in the number of real mission CAP gets called out on overall. That translates to less opportunities to use the skills we maintain. I have seen members stop maintaining those skills because there isn't a need for them because CAP doesn't get called out. These are usually member who have been in three or four years and have honed their skills for no appearent purpose. If giving them a ribbon means they continue to maintain the skills, is that not worth it?

Besides, how do propose smoothing down the ruffled feathers for the people that got Find ribbons, Saves, and Disaster Relief ribbons? They wouldn't be very happy about a SAR-EX ribbon. If you're going to stroke egos for SAR-EX participation, you have to account for the people that actually earned something on a real mission. Turns into a vicious cycle.

I don't see that as an issue. The ES training ribbon does not replace the Find, Save, DR, etc. The only reference to those ribbons is that the ES training ribbon follows them, not replaces them.

And just out of curiousity, if this ribbon was approved, would you receive it immediately, or would it take two of those excercises you were talking about?

That would depend on how the reg is written, but I would expect for everyone to start with a zero count and work up from there.

[arajca]

4) Finally, I don't see why we have an AE badge w/ star for master rate AND a crossfield ribbon (and no other rating has a ribbon). I got nothing but love & respect for Scott Crossfield & really enjoyed meeting & listening to him. I think we can do something better with his name & that ribbon. I say Wg AEO of the year, bronze star for region, silver for national (additional Wg/reg awards indicated by bronze/silver traingles).

I think the Crossfield is a hold over from before we had the AE badge.

[DNall]

Nope.

[Hawk200]

And just out of curiousity, if this ribbon was approved, would you receive it immediately, or would it take two of those excercises you were talking about?

That would depend on how the reg is written, but I would expect for everyone to start with a zero count and work up from there.

I like that answer. A few people want awards that they would get instantly. Your concept is more fair and equitable to everyone.

I think the Crossfield is a hold over from before we had the AE badge.

No, I do specifically remember the Crossfield ribbon coming later. There was an AE badge just being implemented when I first came in, but the ribbon didn't come until a few years later.

[arajca]

I think the Crossfield is a hold over from before we had the AE badge.

No, I do specifically remember the Crossfield ribbon coming later. There was an AE badge just being implemented when I first came in, but the ribbon didn't come until a few years later.

OK. I've been wrong before, I'll be wrong again.

[arajca]

And just out of curiousity, if this ribbon was approved, would you receive it immediately, or would it take two of those excercises you were talking about?

That would depend on how the reg is written, but I would expect for everyone to start with a zero count and work up from there.

I like that answer. A few people want awards that they would get instantly. Your concept is more fair and equitable to everyone.

And it's easier to track. Although for those who already have an ES qual or ten, they would not have to get another ES qual to start counting.