general question about finds and saves

[starshippe]

. . if u tracked down an elt for a find, and it resulted in a save, would u get both ribbons?

thanks,
bill

[davidsinn]

Only if the paperwork was filled out.

[Eclipse]

Just an FYI, there is no charge for the use of proper punctuation and grammar.

See CAPR 60-3: http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R060_003_075A4369FBA8E.pdf

1-27. Criteria for SAVE Credit. A SAVE is the preservation of a human life as a result of actions taken by emergency services (ES) forces. The determination as to whether or not a SAVE is made rests with the controlling agency (for example: AFRCC for SAR missions) based on the recommendation of the appropriate IC or participating emergency services element. In the case of a medical evacuation, the attending physician must attest to the SAVE. Normally, a SAVE will be credited to the element of the ES force making the recovery; however, a search force including incident staff and other aircrews and teams involved may be credited with a SAVE if it locates the SAR objective and directs the retrieval force to a successful recovery.

1-28. Criteria for FIND Credit. A FIND is awarded by the wing commander or higher commander (or a subordinate commander if authority is delegated by the wing commander) to any CAP member of the wing, and is classified as distress or non-distress. A distress FIND is defined as one involving downed aircraft or persons in distress. Normally a definite search objective must have been assigned, located, and positively identified. All other finds will be classified as non-distress, e.g., location of distress beacons accidentally activated. Credit towards FIND ribbons is normally given to the aircrew and/or ground team that located the objective; however, a search force including incident staff and other aircrews and teams involved may be credited with a FIND. More specific guidance for issuance of find ribbons can be found in CAPR 39-3, Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons, and Certificates.

[starshippe]

. . thank u for the responses.
. . yes, i am aware of the documentation requirements involved.
. . and yes, i am aware of the activity required for each. 
. . my question was more along the lines of whether it would be considered double dipping if i were to claim a find, along with a save. to me, a save would imply, in itself, a find.
. . so, if u dfed an elt, and found an aircraft, and saved the occupants, would u submit the paperwork for both a save and a find?
. . a "yes" or a "no" will do just fine here.
. . my apologies if my punctuation is different. i like it.

thanks again,
bill

[Eclipse]

. . my apologies if my punctuation is different. i like it.

Seriously, you will get a lot more respect and response here if you use the language properly.

A find and save is almost always documented at the time of the activity.  Finds are usually straightforward - you find them it / them or you don't.
In most cases, unless the ELT is silenced, you don't get a find, even if you are reasonably certain you know where it is.

Saves have to be submitted up the chain and they are reviewed by a committee to determine if the actions actually contributed to the saving of a life.

I've seen find ribbons processed the next day, saves take a year.  It is not double dipping as the decorations are for different actions.

[sardak]

Saves have to be submitted up the chain and they are reviewed by a committee to determine if the actions actually contributed to the saving of a life.

That's something local as it's not required per 60-3 or 39-3. In the wings I've been in, and having been on both on the receiving side and the determining side of saves, the award can be taken care of in a day.

Getting a save and a find for the same event is not double dipping if the find resulted in a save.

Mike

[IceNine]

He didn't word that quite right.

Saves are determined by the the controlling agency in most cases that will be AFRCC but could be whatever agency we are working for at the time.

[Eclipse]

The lowest level a CRL can be awarded is Wing, and 39-3 requires an awards comittee at each echelon and that the CRL be forwarded for consideration:

(3) Recommendations for the Commander's Commendation Award and Certificate of Recognition for Lifesaving will be forwarded through channels to the appropriate wing or region commander for approval.

[starshippe]

. . thanks.

bill

[IceNine]

Not the same thing buddy.

Save does not always equal a Lifesaving ribbon.

[RiverAux]

There is no "save" ribbon either. 

[IceNine]

Actually now I'm questioning that.

60-3 and 39-3 seem to be conflicting.  60-3 defines a save for the purposes of a mission, as well as approval authority.

39-3 outlines CRL but insinuates that a save and crl are the same thing.

So I suppose the question really is.  When on a mission on which a save is credited, does that criteria trump 39-3? OR do you use the save credit as justification for the CRL?

[Eclipse]

Not much point in getting a "save" if it doesn't come with the fancy ribbon (the extra human beings notwithstanding).

I would say you use the save substantiation on the 120 for the ribbon.

[sardak]

As we know CAP regs are interpreted differently everywhere . My experience in two wings, in different regions, are similar.

On a mission in which AFRCC and the IC determine that CAP saved a life or lives IAW CAPR 60-3 para. 1-27, the CRL is deemed to be appropriate. The IC decides which members are actually awarded the CRL. In both wings the preference is that the IC complete the 120. This sometimes happens, often not. The IC forwards the 120s to the commanders of those earning the award. The 120s generally reach the wing commander without much delay because there is really no reason for others to discuss them. The wing commander approves the 120s. If there are questions along the way, the IC, not a review board, is asked. Distress finds go through the same process involving the IC.

Mike