Duty Performance Promotion Blues

[RNOfficer]

I would like to ask about anyone's experience with "Duty Performance Promotion".

I'm a Nurse Officer, a Major. I've got time-in-grade that makes me eligible for a Duty Performance Promotion to Lt Col.

This would be a promotion without completing the Paul E. Garber Award. In fact, because the Garber Award requires Master rating in a specialty and Nurse Officers have no rating, I'm not eligible for the Garber Award unless I develop another specialty and rise to Master.

I've been performing my duties in an exemplary manner (I think) which should make me eligible to Lt Col. However, I have heard, informally, that Duty Performance Promotions  are rarely granted because of resentment applying for the promotion without earning the Garber Award.

Anyone have any actual experience with this? Any Commanders willing to discuss it?

[RiverAux]

It looks like the reg would back you up on this although the citation that professional development isn't necessary for health services folks is in the professional appointment section rather than the duty performance section of 35-5. 

Personally, I think allowing such promotions without going through the PD program is a mistake, but CAP allows it. 

However, if I was a commander a health service person would have to REALLY be exemplary before I'd promote them to Lt. Col..  And the regs would give me the leeway to make that call.  I'd want to see them running group or wing level programs that would be the equivalent of Masters level work in one of the PD programs. 

[cap235629]

what is a "Nurse Officer". There is no such animal in CAP

[tmurphy]

From my understanding it is the title one gets when you take on HSO, but when you're a nurse the title is called Nurse Officer. Similar to if a doctor takes on the HSO track and gets the title Medical Officer. Everyone else in the health service scope is simply called an HSO.

Edit: Found it under CAPR 160-1, Section D, Paragraph 8

[Eclipse]

I've been performing my duties in an exemplary manner (I think) which should make me eligible to Lt Col. However, I have heard, informally, that Duty Performance Promotions  are rarely granted because of resentment applying for the promotion without earning the Garber Award.

Advanced promotions based on professional skills still require that you catch up your professional development before being promoted to the next level.  The regs are clear that it is not just time in grade after the initial promotion.

It isn't resentment, it is the way the program is run, and for good reason.

See 160-1 & 35-5 for more details:
"SECTION D – QUALIFICATIONS OF HEALTH SERVICE PERSONNEL
8. Appointment standards for health service personnel. Any health professional or technician may qualify for a health service appointment in CAP, provided that proof of current unrestricted licensure, registration, or certification, where such is required by law or regulation, is furnished. (See the attached listing of specific disciplines). Only physician categories will have the title of "medical officer." Only nurse categories will have the title "nurse officer." All others will be known as "health service officers."

9. Members in any of the foregoing health disciplines may serve as a unit's health service program officer. If a unit has more than one health professional assigned, the most senior in terms of level of education and training should be the designated health service program officer and any others as his/her assistants.

10. Initial Appointment and Promotion: CAPR 35-5 prescribes appointment and promotion procedures for health service personnel.

The three levels technician, senior and master currently do not apply to medical or legal officers. They are covered under separate provisions of CAPR 35-5. Essentially after completing Level I, medical officers qualify for appointment as a Captain and after a year in grade promotion to Major. After that duty performance promotion requirements apply. "

[jimmydeanno]

I think the kicker is that there isn't a master rating option for hsos...

[RNOfficer]

I've been performing my duties in an exemplary manner (I think) which should make me eligible to Lt Col. However, I have heard, informally, that Duty Performance Promotions  are rarely granted because of resentment applying for the promotion without earning the Garber Award.

Advanced promotions based on professional skills still require that you catch up your professional development before being promoted to the next level.  The regs are clear that it is not just time in grade after the initial promotion.

It isn't resentment, it is the way the program is run, and for good reason.

No, you are completely mistaken. Professional Development is not required for HSO.

CAPR 35-5

5-2. Training Requirements. Professional personnel must complete Level I prior to
appointment to CAP officer grade. Health Service personnel, legal officers, professional
educators serving as aerospace education officers and financial professionals serving as finance
officers are exempt from all other training requirements prescribed for promotion to additional
grades.

As the Regulation explicitly states, HSO are exempt from all other training requirements  All, of course, includes the Garber Award.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

what is a "Nurse Officer". There is no such animal in CAP

RN Officer is a Registered Nurse.

In the Army, Navy, Air Force and U.S. Public Health Service, Registered Nurses are Officers.

[BillB]

Since Region is the approval authority for LtCol send in the form 2 citing 35-2, 5, 2 and see what happens. If Region knows the regulation, there should be no problem. This situation is probably new and Region will have to check the regulations.

[RiverAux]

Seems to me that we've got two conflicting regulations here.  35-5 says no PD requirements at all while 160-1 says PD is necessary to get promoted to Lt. Col., though not for below that. 

[ßτε]

Seems to me that we've got two conflicting regulations here.  35-5 says no PD requirements at all while 160-1 says PD is necessary to get promoted to Lt. Col., though not for below that.

Can you show where in CAPR 160-1 it says PD is necessary to get promoted to Lt Col?
I cannot find it.

[RiverAux]

See the quote in Eclipse's post above. 

[ßτε]

See the quote in Eclipse's post above.

If you are referring to

The three levels technician, senior and master currently do not apply to medical or legal officers. They are covered under separate provisions of CAPR 35-5. Essentially after completing Level I, medical officers qualify for appointment as a Captain and after a year in grade promotion to Major. After that duty performance promotion requirements apply. "

it is not in CAPR 160-1.

[RiverAux]

My mistake.  I thought he was quoting from it.  But, if he is quoting from 35-5 then that reg appears to be conflicting with itself. 

[ßτε]

I don't know where that part of the quote is from, but it is not part of CAPR 35-5 either.

[flyboy53]

I've been performing my duties in an exemplary manner (I think) which should make me eligible to Lt Col. However, I have heard, informally, that Duty Performance Promotions  are rarely granted because of resentment applying for the promotion without earning the Garber Award.

Advanced promotions based on professional skills still require that you catch up your professional development before being promoted to the next level.  The regs are clear that it is not just time in grade after the initial promotion.

It isn't resentment, it is the way the program is run, and for good reason.

See 160-1 & 35-5 for more details:
"SECTION D – QUALIFICATIONS OF HEALTH SERVICE PERSONNEL
8. Appointment standards for health service personnel. Any health professional or technician may qualify for a health service appointment in CAP, provided that proof of current unrestricted licensure, registration, or certification, where such is required by law or regulation, is furnished. (See the attached listing of specific disciplines). Only physician categories will have the title of “medical officer.” Only nurse categories will have the title “nurse officer.” All others will be known as “health service officers.”

9. Members in any of the foregoing health disciplines may serve as a unit's health service program officer. If a unit has more than one health professional assigned, the most senior in terms of level of education and training should be the designated health service program officer and any others as his/her assistants.

10. Initial Appointment and Promotion: CAPR 35-5 prescribes appointment and promotion procedures for health service personnel.

The three levels technician, senior and master currently do not apply to medical or legal officers. They are covered under separate provisions of CAPR 35-5. Essentially after completing Level I, medical officers qualify for appointment as a Captain and after a year in grade promotion to Major. After that duty performance promotion requirements apply. "

If I can add something here to what Eclipse said, IMHO you should really be taking this issue up with your commander and/or the health service officer at your next echelon of command.

When you do, please keep this in mind:  Aside from initial appointments, there is a general rule throughout CAP that higher the rank dictates higher levels of responsibility. The whole point of the professional development program is to prepare an officer to become productive and successful program managers at those higher levels of responsibility: ie, group, wing, region or even NHQ.

Of course, Health Services Officers are a special breed of CAP officer, especially if they are performing their specific duties. However, promotions of people to the grade of lieutenant colonel, without completion of the professional development, incur a lot of resentment among peers -- and I'm not talking about other health service officers -- I'm talking about others of your same rank and that could be very embarrassing for your commander.

Perhaps the HSO at the next level of command could recommend a solution, an additional duty or duty assigment that would warrant the higher rank and then mentor/sponsor you through that process. Are you prepared to accept that challenge?

[RiverAux]

I wonder why it is that with the other professional appointments you actually have to serve in the applicable CAP duty position to be eligible, but apparently not with health services folks either for the initial rank bump or later ones (except you do have to be a unit HSO to get the bump to Major as a doctor). 

[Eclipse]

The quote is from the KB.

As Lt. Col is a Region-level approval, the odds of getting it based on nothing more than TIG as an NO are near zero, and that assumes it is first approved by the unit, group, and wing.  Lt. Col., in all its flavors, represents the pinnacle and "end" for most CAP members who will never ascend to a corporate officer position.

Considering the current conservative nature of CAP in regards to Health Services, an MD or RN cannot provide anything more than an EMT in terms of training or services, so to me, to allow them to receive the highest grade most members will attain, while providing very little in terms of staff service and not having shown any CAP experience or knowledge that is exhibited by completing the four levels of PD most other members require.

Every other professional appointment has to catch up their PD, why should HSO be different?

[MSG Mac]

What it says is that no PD is  requirement. required up to Major. For LtCol you must complete the Garber.

[ol'fido]

I was at a meeting yesterday where my wing commander stated that he expects everyone to complete the PD requirements for their grade. He stated that we are "corporate" officers who should not expect to do one "thing"( i.e. flying, HSO, legal, et al) to the exclusion of the rest of the program. I, myself, was indifferent to the idea but after hearing his explanation, I find that I agree with him.

[Pylon]

I was at a meeting yesterday where my wing commander stated that he expects everyone to complete the PD requirements for their grade. He stated that we are "corporate" officers who should not expect to do one "thing"( i.e. flying, HSO, legal, et al) to the exclusion of the rest of the program. I, myself, was indifferent to the idea but after hearing his explanation, I find that I agree with him.

Poor choice of wording, however.  Corporate officers means something entirely different in CAP:  members who are on the corporation's national board of directors, and legally empowered to obligate the corporation (aka: Wing/Region/National Commander and a select group of others).

[ol'fido]

Granted, but you get my point, right?

[flyboy53]

Granted, but you get my point, right?

You mean your commander's point; which I'm assuming to mean professionalism. It has nothing to do with individuals who chose to only fly or be communicators or some other speciality. As a former group commander, I would agree with him sans the reference to corporate officers because that last corporate officer in any wing is the wing commander. The rest of us are all volunteers.

I have earned a GRW. Although the process has been a challenge,  I can honestly say, in retrospect, that I'm a better officer for having done what was necessary as I strived to achieve that goal. All CAP officers should strive to do the same.

As this string started, certainly a nurse officer is valuable to the CAP. However, someone in the grade lieutenant colonel should be expected to have that valuable training and reference experience that would allow them to assume a leadership role in critical situations. Someone without that training may be less successful.

[AirAux]

Speaking from experience, I had an EMT that was recently promoted from Major to Lt. Col., based upon time in grade as a HSO only in our squadron.  Send in the paperwork.  It should go through.  That's the Reg's. 

[Eclipse]

Speaking from experience, I had an EMT that was recently promoted from Major to Lt. Col., based upon time in grade as a HSO only in our squadron.  Send in the paperwork.  It should go through.  That's the Reg's.

How did an EMT get Major to start with?

[IceNine]

I think there is a funamental misunderstaning here.

First in terminology.  The promotion being requested is a "Professional Appointment" not  "Duty Performance"

Members that are eligible for a "Professional Appointment" are only eligible for additional promotions in that category if they meet the criteria for said grade.  So in this case a Nurse is only eligible for Professional Appointment up to 1st Lt unless they have a Doctorate in a medical discipline.

They can continue to receive promotions in that category ONLY if they are advancing their education to a level that meets the chart.  So for instance an LPN gets 2nd Lt and in 6 months finishes RN Training they are then eligible for 1st Lt but under the heading of RN will never be eligible for promotion to Capt unless they complete a Doctoral Program.

The elimination of PD requirements only lasts as long as the education level is commensurate with the grade as listed in 35-5 page 17.  Once that is exhausted it's back to earning the appropriate levels and playing in the PD sandbox.

The only people that are always and completely exempt from the PD program (excepting Level 1) are Military Officers and Chaplains (who have their own track)

[arajca]

Cite?

The reg says
"Health Service personnel, legal officers, professional educators serving as aerospace education officers and financial professionals serving as finance officers are exempt from all other training requirements prescribed for promotion to additional grades."

If you are refering to para. 5-3 c., that only covers INITIAL appointment, not subsequent promotions, which are covered in para 5-2 (generally) and 5-4 (specifically), noted above.

Now, promotions are specifically covered in para 5-4, which reads in part
"5-4. Promotions.
a. After initial appointment, professional personnel may be eligible for future promotions by satisfying the requirements outlined in paragraph 2-1, except:
(1) Health service personnel and legal officers are exempt from senior member professional development requirements after Level I. Legal officers, however, must complete the National Legal Officers' College prior to promotion to the grade of lieutenant colonel."

Since this paragraph specifically addresses promotions, please show where it requires advancing degrees to get a promotion.

If you're looking at Figure 7, HSO column, it covers initial promotion and includes a TIG reduction for HSOs with a doctorate serving as an HSO to make Maj in one year after after making Capt. It does not require continued advancement of degree in order to promote.

[AirAux]

Andrew, you are correctomundo.  It amazes me how many members can not read a very simple and straightforward Regulation and not have a clue what it says or means.  Folks, they don't get any easier than this one.  It is what it is and you need to quit trying to put your own personal spin on it because you don't like it.  Get over it.  The EMT was a Major because she had enough time in grade as a Captain, etc.  Simple, yes?? 

[RNOfficer]

I was at a meeting yesterday where my wing commander stated that he expects everyone to complete the PD requirements for their grade. He stated that we are "corporate" officers who should not expect to do one "thing"( i.e. flying, HSO, legal, et al) to the exclusion of the rest of the program. I, myself, was indifferent to the idea but after hearing his explanation, I find that I agree with him.

That's the Illinois Wing Right? Col Gordon Larson?

Thanks for the information.

This is completely against Regulations.

KB Answer ID 1452

Can a squadron create additional requirements for promotion other than those stated in the official CAP regulations?

   No. CAP REGULATION 35-5 (E) CAP OFFICER AND NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER APPOINTMENTS AND PROMOTIONS makes it clear that criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

Note however that no CAP member is entitled to a promotion simply by fulfilling the training and time-in-grade requirements. Commanders still have the obligation to recommend or not recommend individuals for promotion based on criteria such as job performance, contributions to the unit, involvement, human relations, leadership potential and other factors which require some subjective evaluation and judgment.

See below from  CAPR 35-5 CAP Officer and NCO Appointments and Promotions 16 MARCH 2010

SECTION A - GENERAL PROVISIONS
1-1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

[Eclipse]

What you are missing entirely is the final subjective say of a commander, or in this case, commanders in the chain of approval for a promotion.  Mere eligibility is not enough to warrant a promotion, and a respective commander does not need any more excuse than "I don't think you are ready". To deny a promotion request.

If you go around waving the same sense of entitlement in person as you are showing here, don't be surprised if the chain is not interested in encouraging that by promoting you.

No one has asked you yet what you feel you have done to deserve what is considered to be the pinnacle of the program for most members, and takes a considerable amount of effort and years of work to accomplish.  I am talking about internal to CAP, not your external qualifications.

Being the NO isn't the right answer, as you can't do anything more for CAP than an EMT or a member with a first aid card.

[RNOfficer]

What you are missing entirely is the final subjective say of a commander, or in this case, commanders in the chain of approval for a promotion. 

The relevant Regulation:

Health Service personnel, legal officers, professional educators serving as aerospace education officers and financial professionals serving as finance officers are exempt from all other training requirements prescribed for promotion to additional grades.

What you are REALLY saying is that although Professional Appointment are explicitly exempt from "all other training requirements" for promotion, Commanders will use their "subjective say", to deliberately violate the Regulation and not promote on the pretext that the Officer is "not ready".

If you think so little of the CAP to believe that, I frankly don't know why you're a member of this organization. Commanders are bound by Regulations just like everyone else (even National Commanders we have seen).

[RNOfficer]

Andrew, you are correctomundo.  It amazes me how many members can not read a very simple and straightforward Regulation and not have a clue what it says or means.  Folks, they don't get any easier than this one.  It is what it is and you need to quit trying to put your own personal spin on it because you don't like it.  Get over it.  The EMT was a Major because she had enough time in grade as a Captain, etc.  Simple, yes??

And was performing duties in an exemplary manner.

[Eclipse]

If you think so little of the CAP to believe that, I frankly don't know why you're a member of this organization. Commanders are bound by Regulations just like everyone else (even National Commanders we have seen).

A commander exercising personal judgement in denying someone a promotion, despite their on-paper minimum eligibility, is not only not a violation of regulations, but their fiduciary responsibility to the organization.

Perhaps you would understand that better if you spent some time completing CAP PD.

[tsrup]

I was at a meeting yesterday where my wing commander stated that he expects everyone to complete the PD requirements for their grade. He stated that we are "corporate" officers who should not expect to do one "thing"( i.e. flying, HSO, legal, et al) to the exclusion of the rest of the program. I, myself, was indifferent to the idea but after hearing his explanation, I find that I agree with him.

That's the Illinois Wing Right? Col Gordon Larson?

Thanks for the information.

This is completely against Regulations.

KB Answer ID 1452

Can a squadron create additional requirements for promotion other than those stated in the official CAP regulations?

   No. CAP REGULATION 35-5 (E) CAP OFFICER AND NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER APPOINTMENTS AND PROMOTIONS makes it clear that criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

Note however that no CAP member is entitled to a promotion simply by fulfilling the training and time-in-grade requirements. Commanders still have the obligation to recommend or not recommend individuals for promotion based on criteria such as job performance, contributions to the unit, involvement, human relations, leadership potential and other factors which require some subjective evaluation and judgment.

See below from  CAPR 35-5 CAP Officer and NCO Appointments and Promotions 16 MARCH 2010

SECTION A - GENERAL PROVISIONS
1-1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

Emphasis mine

[Larry Mangum]

RNOficer - You stated in your initial post, "I've been performing my duties in an exemplary manner (I think)", what does your commander think of your duty performance? As a HSO what do you bring to your squadron, group or wing.  Be prepared to document what you have done or are doing, as most people will not know what a HSO does.

[RNOfficer]

RNOficer - You stated in your initial post, "I've been performing my duties in an exemplary manner (I think)", what does your commander think of your duty performance? As a HSO what do you bring to your squadron, group or wing.  Be prepared to document what you have done or are doing, as most people will not know what a HSO does.

Thank you for reminding me. I intend to document it extensively. I'm prepared to fully justify my promotion.

What I am not prepared to do is complete requirement expressly not required. The Regulations don't require CAP Professional Development deliberately. All Professional Appointments must complete mandated Continuing Education Requirements. Most will do more. A CAP Officer who is a tire salesman doesn't have that burden.

[tsrup]

RNOficer - You stated in your initial post, "I've been performing my duties in an exemplary manner (I think)", what does your commander think of your duty performance? As a HSO what do you bring to your squadron, group or wing.  Be prepared to document what you have done or are doing, as most people will not know what a HSO does.

A CAP Officer who is a tire salesman doesn't have that burden.

instead they have to complete all of the PD.  That same tire salesman may also be a comms officer or PAO or a multitude of other useful positions for CAP.

We as a volunteer organization would do best not to judge other officers by their employment outside of CAP.

[JeffDG]

I was at a meeting yesterday where my wing commander stated that he expects everyone to complete the PD requirements for their grade. He stated that we are "corporate" officers who should not expect to do one "thing"( i.e. flying, HSO, legal, et al) to the exclusion of the rest of the program. I, myself, was indifferent to the idea but after hearing his explanation, I find that I agree with him.

As others have said, it's entirely the commander's prerogative to decide if someone is eligible for promotion.  It is not, however, in the commander's prerogative to add requirements (in the case of HSOs, completing Professional Development levels which from which they are specifically, by regulation, exempted).

If a commander looks at each candidate and says "yea" or "nay", that's fine.  But to make a blanket statement that they will not receive promotions unless they complete the PD levels, is an abuse of command authority, IMHO.

[Eclipse]

What I am not prepared to do is complete requirement expressly not required. The Regulations don't require CAP Professional Development deliberately. All Professional Appointments must complete mandated Continuing Education Requirements. Most will do more. A CAP Officer who is a tire salesman doesn't have that burden.

Excellent attitude - the difference being the tire salesman will actually have to work CAP's program instead of relying on an attitude of entitlement based on outside qualifications that are of dubious value to CAP.

The mere fact that you would belittle a non-professional member is indicative of where you believe you exist in the universal hierarchy.

You also ignored the question about what you think you have done for CAP that entitles you to the grade of Lt. Col. ahead of your peers.  These conversations are why most units don't appoint HSO's.

[arajca]

Actually, the promotion for HSO's that requires them to be appointed to that staff position is Capt to Maj for Medical Officers with a doctorate. Otherwise, there is no requirement to be serving in that duty assignment. Right, Wrong, or Otherwise, that's what the reg says.

[Eclipse]

Actually, the promotion for HSO's that requires them to be appointed to that staff position is Capt to Maj for Medical Officers with a doctorate. Otherwise, there is no requirement to be serving in that duty assignment. Right, Wrong, or Otherwise, that's what the reg says.

True enough, but few region CC's are going to promote someone to Lt. Col. if they aren't even serving in a staff position.
Without a staff job you aren't an HSO, you're just a member who happens to be a medical professional, and it is going to
be difficult to me the "serving" criteria for promotion.

[AirAux]

Eclipse, you noted, "You also ignored the question about what you think you have done for CAP that entitles you to the grade of Lt. Col. ahead of your peers.  These conversations are why most units don't appoint HSO's."  I failed to see anywhere that RNOfficer was attempting to get promoted AHEAD of his/her peers.  RNOfficer noted she/he had time in grade.  All Major's with completed requirements, including time in grade are on equal footing to RNOfficer for promotion and there are no slots, so no one is left behind.  I am disappointed at your open disdain for HSO's.  I thought CAP welcomed everyone.  I have never known a HSO or Legal Officer that did not do more than their professional rating in a squadron.  They are well educated, highly motivated, very professional, well disciplined, and almost always willing to do anything asked of them.  Most of them understand teamwork better than your local bluecollar worker, and I am not maligning them, only stating personal experience.

[Eclipse]

The "peers" in this case are not other majors or other HSOs, they are RNofficer's fellow unit members that he/she will need to
look in the face wearing clusters while they all participate in RSC, SLS/CLC, and the other PD that makes them well-rounded, informed members.

Legal officers can ply their trade in CAP, MD's, RN's, LPN's, and EMT's, etc., cannot, at least at a professional level beyond what anyone with a first aid card can do.

In many wings general medical practitioners can't even teach first aid classes because the wing wants a professional organization to assume that liability and issue the certification.  As I have said before, when MO's start giving free flight physicals to pilots and related disciplines start providing medical treatment at no cost you will have my attention, until then, there is little need or use for HSO's specific to their professional skills - any more than we need brick layers, or cable installers.

That doesn't lesson our need for educated people with professional managerial skills, only that because of CAP's conservative nature they can't do anything they have been trained to do.  This is no different, really, than a comm guy in a unit with no radios, or a professional adolescent counselor in a unit with no cadets.

My question is valid considering the level of entitlement exhibited - you appoint someone to an unnecessary staff position, promote them based on skills CAP can't use, and then instead of "thank you, now I will learn about CAP to show I deserve this grade", you get "more, please".

[RNOfficer]

What I am not prepared to do is complete requirement expressly not required. The Regulations don't require CAP Professional Development deliberately. All Professional Appointments must complete mandated Continuing Education Requirements. Most will do more. A CAP Officer who is a tire salesman doesn't have that burden.

Excellent attitude - the difference being the tire salesman will actually have to work CAP's program instead of relying on an attitude of entitlement based on outside qualifications that are of dubious value to CAP.

The mere fact that you would belittle a non-professional member is indicative of where you believe you exist in the universal hierarchy.

You also ignored the question about what you think you have done for CAP that entitles you to the grade of Lt. Col. ahead of your peers.  These conversations are why most units don't appoint HSO's.

Just when you thought the level of discussion could sink no lower, along comes someone to set a new standard.

[RNOfficer]

If you think so little of the CAP to believe that, I frankly don't know why you're a member of this organization. Commanders are bound by Regulations just like everyone else (even National Commanders we have seen).

A commander exercising personal judgement in denying someone a promotion, despite their on-paper minimum eligibility, is not only not a violation of regulations, but their fiduciary responsibility to the organization.

Perhaps you would understand that better if you spent some time completing CAP PD.

I know this is asking a lot of someone with your skill level but if you would read the previous posts, you would understand that HSOs, legal Officers, Finance Officers, and Chaplains cannot participate in CAP PD because PD requires that one's specialty field have levels. Professional Specialties don't.

[EMT-83]

I know this is asking a lot of someone with your skill level but if you would read the previous posts, you would understand that HSOs, legal Officers, Finance Officers, and Chaplains cannot participate in CAP PD because PD requires that one's specialty field have levels. Professional Specialties don't.

Absolutely not true. Of course you can participate in the Senior Member Professional Development program.

If you or your commander need guidance in this area, check with NHQ.

[davidsinn]

If you think so little of the CAP to believe that, I frankly don't know why you're a member of this organization. Commanders are bound by Regulations just like everyone else (even National Commanders we have seen).

A commander exercising personal judgement in denying someone a promotion, despite their on-paper minimum eligibility, is not only not a violation of regulations, but their fiduciary responsibility to the organization.

Perhaps you would understand that better if you spent some time completing CAP PD.

I know this is asking a lot of someone with your skill level but if you would read the previous posts, you would understand that HSOs, legal Officers, Finance Officers, and Chaplains cannot participate in CAP PD because PD requires that one's specialty field have levels. Professional Specialties don't.

Nothing is preventing you from meeting the same requirements that I must meet to promote. I suggest you meet them whether they're required or not, you might learn something along the way.

[RNOfficer]

Nothing is preventing you from meeting the same requirements that I must meet to promote. I suggest you meet them whether they're required or not, you might learn something along the way.

And I invite you to complete thirty hours of Continuing Education a year like I do.

[jeders]

Nothing is preventing you from meeting the same requirements that I must meet to promote. I suggest you meet them whether they're required or not, you might learn something along the way.

And I invite you to complete thirty hours of Continuing Education a year like I do.

Kudos on you.

You are right that the regs say you don't need to do the regular PD, but you also forget that the Wing HSO has to recommend you before the Wing CC approves. If you really want to know if you deserve a promotion, talk to your squadron commander and the Wing HSO and go from there.

As an aside, when I was a squadron commander, if I had someone being such a poor example of CAP's Core Values, not only would I not endorse your promotion request, I would want to look into demotion. Of course the attitude you've shown leads me to wonder, do you know what CAP's Core Values are and do you think that you are exhibiting them here?

[Eclipse]

I know this is asking a lot of someone with your skill level but if you would read the previous posts, you would understand that HSOs, legal Officers, Finance Officers, and Chaplains cannot participate in CAP PD because PD requires that one's specialty field have levels. Professional Specialties don't.

As noted, there is no restriction for members to participate in PD, regardless of their specialty or staff posting, and as a matter of fact, Chaplains receiving special appointments must meet normal PD and TIG for subsequent promotions.
Not required does not equal = not allowed.

Nothing is preventing you from meeting the same requirements that I must meet to promote. I suggest you meet them whether they're required or not, you might learn something along the way.

And I invite you to complete thirty hours of Continuing Education a year like I do.

Your continuing education is a requirement of your professional accreditation and employment, not relevant to CAP.  When you add up the things members do to complete PD like SLS/CLC/TLC/RSC, they generally add up to at least that much or more every year.

[RiverAux]

RN, you may not have realized this when you posted, but there are a fair number of people on CAPTalk who question the value of the professional and mission-related skills promotion system in the first place.  There is also a very sizable contingent of folks who believe that CAP's entire rank system needs re-working but that in the interim commanders should put a whole lot more emphasis on the "serving in an exemplary manner" requirement and not just promote automatically when all the boxes have been checked. 

[AirAux]

After all, RN, you are already way overpaid for your CAP work and we just can't afford adding another Lt.Col. to the retirement rolls.  Someday, when you grow up and become a real Wannabee, whether it be military, Emergency Services and/or Search and Rescue Hero, come back and talk to us.  After all, we truly believe that if you're not with us, you're against us.  Of course nobody knows or cares whether you are trained in mass casualty triage/treatment, epidemic speciality, or a psychiatric nurse trained in working with stressed CAP volunteers.  My advice, type up your own promotion and submit it.  If it isn't approved for a valid reason, file an IG complaint and follow up with a discrimination law suit.  Obviously if you are a Major, you have several years with CAP and have contributed to some degree.  I apologize for my colleagues, we're not all of the same mold.  If you need help, let me know.   

[RNOfficer]

As an aside, when I was a squadron commander,

You wouldn't be my Squadron Commander. I wouldn't be in a Squadron where the CC did not deserve respect.

Fortunately, for CAP, you're no longer a Squadron Commander.

[DakRadz]

You wouldn't be my Squadron Commander. I wouldn't be in a Squadron where the CC did not deserve respect.

Fortunately, for CAP, you're no longer a Squadron Commander.

This is the other part of his post- you seemed to have missed it, or deleted it before reading, but it is a rather key part.

someone being such a poor example of CAP's Core Values, not only would I not endorse your promotion request, I would want to look into demotion. Of course the attitude you've shown leads me to wonder, do you know what CAP's Core Values are and do you think that you are exhibiting them here?

[MSG Mac]

I know this is asking a lot of someone with your skill level but if you would read the previous posts, you would understand that HSOs, legal Officers, Finance Officers, and Chaplains cannot participate in CAP PD because PD requires that one's specialty field have levels. Professional Specialties don't.

Chaplains have been required to participate in Professional Development for several years now. If the CAPR 160

[SarDragon]

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.

RN, I suggest that you consult the Membership Code of Conduct before making any more posts on here.

[EMT-83]

A serious question, I'm not busting your chops: what exactly do you do as Nurse Officer?

You said that you perform your duties in an exemplary manner. Could you expand on that, so I can understand your position?

[davidsinn]

Of course nobody knows or cares whether you are trained in mass casualty triage/treatment, epidemic speciality, or a psychiatric nurse

And these help our missions how exactly?

I could make a pretty good argument that my professional skills are more useful to CAP than that of a nurse given the current state of our regs. I am a drafter and among my skillset I am trained to draw maps. I am trained to interpret technical documents and process data and turn it into a coherent whole. Since my tool is a computer I'm pretty good at making them work and maintaining them. These are skills that directly help our missions. I do not get any advanced promotion for them nor do I think I should.

I do not appreciate the holier than thou attitude that I see exhibited by every HSO I've met, nor the entitled attitude exhibited by the OP.

The continuing education argument thrown out earlier doesn't fly either because that's really no different than mandatory overtime for anybody else. We mere mortals are expected to do PD. Heck even the chaplains are expected to now and they work weekends which is when most PD is.

[flyboy53]

As an aside, when I was a squadron commander,

You wouldn't be my Squadron Commander. I wouldn't be in a Squadron where the CC did not deserve respect.

Fortunately, for CAP, you're no longer a Squadron Commander.

And so, you have debated the issue in this forum without seeking the advice of those in your chain of command. I understand your frustration, but I question the attitude you have displayed, especially since I know of a practicing medical doctor who is a lieutenant colonel and who has completed all the PD requirements for that rank....all the while never questioning that requirement.

Remember this, regulations aside, as a promotion, especially to the rank of lieutenant colonel, winds its way through the chain of command, it will be put before a promotion board to determine merit at least once or twice. Certainly, the approving or nominating commander is to determine promotion criteria uniformly. However, the commander does and will set policy throughout his or her command that could result in a denial of promotion. That's why he or she is the COMMANDER.

I have served in three wings where the wing commander set a policy limiting promotions of lieutenant colonels for exactly the same reasons my estemed colleagues have tried advise you in this forum.  That's just the way it is, the commander has the authority to recommend or reject a promotion request based on merit (his intrepretation). And if not the wing commander, it WILL be the region commander. Look for that policy to be reinforced strongly in larger wings or regions.

Admittedly, I know very little of the duties, training and professional requirements of a CAP nurse officer, I do know that in a board situation, more than your professional qualifications will be reviewed for justification. Certainly, as a nurse officer, you are invaluable to the CAP. However, in a board situation, I'm certain the nod for promotion may go first to that member who has completed all the requirements for that rank and demonstrated a devotion to duty that has resulted in him or her being noticed and deemed worthy of the promotion.

[jeders]

As an aside, when I was a squadron commander,

You wouldn't be my Squadron Commander. I wouldn't be in a Squadron where the CC did not deserve respect.

Fortunately, for CAP, you're no longer a Squadron Commander.

So because I would want you to be an example of CAPs Core Values (because they're not just for cadets) I don't deserve respect, which is a core value. That's...interesting.

[Hawk200]

As an aside, when I was a squadron commander,

You wouldn't be my Squadron Commander. I wouldn't be in a Squadron where the CC did not deserve respect.

Fortunately, for CAP, you're no longer a Squadron Commander.

So because I would want you to be an example of CAPs Core Values (because they're not just for cadets) I don't deserve respect, which is a core value. That's...interesting.

I would have used the word "telling."

[ol'fido]

I was at a meeting yesterday where my wing commander stated that he expects everyone to complete the PD requirements for their grade. He stated that we are "corporate" officers who should not expect to do one "thing"( i.e. flying, HSO, legal, et al) to the exclusion of the rest of the program. I, myself, was indifferent to the idea but after hearing his explanation, I find that I agree with him.

That's the Illinois Wing Right? Col Gordon Larson?

Thanks for the information.

This is completely against Regulations.

KB Answer ID 1452

Can a squadron create additional requirements for promotion other than those stated in the official CAP regulations?

   No. CAP REGULATION 35-5 (E) CAP OFFICER AND NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER APPOINTMENTS AND PROMOTIONS makes it clear that criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

Note however that no CAP member is entitled to a promotion simply by fulfilling the training and time-in-grade requirements. Commanders still have the obligation to recommend or not recommend individuals for promotion based on criteria such as job performance, contributions to the unit, involvement, human relations, leadership potential and other factors which require some subjective evaluation and judgment.

See below from  CAPR 35-5 CAP Officer and NCO Appointments and Promotions 16 MARCH 2010

SECTION A - GENERAL PROVISIONS
1-1. General. Criteria for promotion of CAP senior members will be applied uniformly throughout Civil Air Patrol. CAP unit supplements to this regulation in the form of publications or oral instructions that change the basic policies, criteria, procedures, and practices prescribed herein are prohibited.

That's right. Col. Larson. Col. Larson came inot this organization after serving in the USAF . He flew O-2 FACs in RV and KC-135s in Desert Shield/Desertt Storm.. As a retired  USAF O-5, he came into the program as a Lt. Col.. He did not have to go back and go through the PD program, but he did because he felt he should learn the CAP way of doing things and because he felt it was the right thing to do. He didn't rest on his laurels and I have the utmost respect for him because he leads by example.

[MSG Mac]

Can we end this thread. It has turned into a pi***** contest.