Should uniform inspections be a required part of senior member meetings?

[mmouw]

An idea about not having time is keeping a uniform in your car. I have a flight suit in the back of my car for the moments notice of a SAR. My gear is there as well. Unless you change your meeting night every week, then you know when and where it is. So have your uniform with you in your car and change when you get there. I can't imagine that it would take more that 10 mins to change. If you are proactive then you never have to react to the unseen circumstances.

[A.Member]

Personaly I am tired of seeing bloated membership levels.  We can't go to NHQ with the claim of retention when close to 25% or more of the "active" membership roster is people that don't show or are a hazzard because they refuse to work with in the regs and guidlines, which is just as bad. I know that wearing the uniform improperly isn't hazardous but it just shows that the member is possibly not willing to follow safety regs as well.

If we have to get rid of dead weight then so be it. If it cuts into our membership numbers, so be it. If it makes NHQ see taht there other issues out there besides uniform options, great.

Sometimes you have to prune a tree for it to grow new life, sometimes that pruning is drastic. I say lets get pruning and get on with Civil Air Patrol growing new life and becoming healthy once again.

I agree.   The focus should be on quality, not quantity. 

I also have no concerns about a reduction in membership levels - quite the opposite actually.  I worry we attract too many people that truly aren't committed - some comments in this thread illustrate that point.  Quite frankly, that's not what's needed.  We could use a little RIF of our own - or "pruning" as it was stated. 

As for not wearing a uniform to a meeting, there really is no excuse - whether cadets are there or not.  This requires an absolute minimum amount of effort.  If a person can't do that, then perhaps they really need to be asked why they're here.  Those that aren't interested in wearing a uniform and just want to fly can start their own flying club or SAR group - there are a lot of other organizations out there.

BTW, our comp. squadron has ~70 members (+/- a few) with average weekly meeting attendance in the ~60%+ range.   With the exception of 2 members, everyone wears the USAF-style uniform - "legally".  It's a concept we continually reinforce and ultimately something we take pride in.  With the rare exception of an occasional visitor, we never see those lame golf shirts (which represent the very minimum standard for adherence).     

[Hotel 179]

An idea about not having time is keeping a uniform in your car. I have a flight suit in the back of my car for the moments notice of a SAR. My gear is there as well.

Hello Again,

It's not an issue with us....most of the members wear the golf shirt/slacks combination for the meetings unless we are doing an outdoor activity.  

I've had a couple of back messages regarding the bermuda shorts and sticky name tag....everyone is all for it.  When it shows up in CAPR39-1, remember you heard it here first.

Semper vi, y'all.

Stephen

[DrJbdm]

  I personally think the more we nitpick on things like uniforms, the more of a standard we will set in all things, as Lt. Arnold and Dnall pointed out, if you slack off in one thing what else are you willing to slack off in??

  excellence is attained thru attention to detail, and attention to details is first taught at the more relatively minor things like uniforms and the spacing of ribbons, badges so forth. If we maintain a high standard in every aspect, we will follow thru with that high standard in all other aspects...including our personal and professional lives outside of CAP. We are what we become.

 Yes, CAP is a volunteer organization but all that means is that CAP is not providing your monetary income, it doesn't mean that it needs to be or should be treated any different then your professional job or even the Military. I'm a volunteer at my job, I volunteered to apply for it, I volunteer to go in every day and I can also choose to volunteer to leave...I can walk into my Chiefs office any day I choose and lay down my gun, badge and ID card and walk out. fact is we are all volunteers in all we do. it's time we treat CAP as a Professional organization versus the "volunteer" organization that some people choose to treat it as. If they can't or will not follow our procedures and our regulations then Yes, do what Chris and DNall said and FIRE them! We will gain the respect of more people by being willing to ENFORCE our rules and regulations and getting rid of those who willfully choose to not follow them.

[lordmonar]

 I personally think the more we nitpick on things like uniforms, the more of a standard we will set in all things, as Lt. Arnold and Dnall pointed out, if you slack off in one thing what else are you willing to slack off in??

That is not necessarily true.  You may let some slide on a uniform issue but still jump down his throat on a safety issue.

Just because if don't think one thing is important does not mean you think all things are not important.

excellence is attained thru attention to detail, and attention to details is first taught at the more relatively minor things like uniforms and the spacing of ribbons, badges so forth. If we maintain a high standard in every aspect, we will follow thru with that high standard in all other aspects...including our personal and professional lives outside of CAP. We are what we become.

No...excellence is attained by getting the job done.   This is a nit pick...but it is possible to get so bogged down in the minor details that you fail to complete the mission.  This is not to say attention to detail is NOT important but that with out completing your mission....it does not matter how well you have crossed your t's and dotted your i's.

Yes, CAP is a volunteer organization but all that means is that CAP is not providing your monetary income, it doesn't mean that it needs to be or should be treated any different then your professional job or even the Military. I'm a volunteer at my job, I volunteered to apply for it, I volunteer to go in every day and I can also choose to volunteer to leave...I can walk into my Chiefs office any day I choose and lay down my gun, badge and ID card and walk out. fact is we are all volunteers in all we do. it's time we treat CAP as a Professional organization versus the "volunteer" organization that some people choose to treat it as. If they can't or will not follow our procedures and our regulations then Yes, do what Chris and DNall said and FIRE them! We will gain the respect of more people by being willing to ENFORCE our rules and regulations and getting rid of those who willfully choose to not follow them.

Good point.  We are free to quit at anytime and we are free to ask those who don't follow the rules to quit.

On the other hand (just to play the devils advocate)....in relation to uniforms....is it really worth it?

As I said before....excellance begins in completing the mission.  If (and that is a big if) your uniform enforcement policy starts to force out your members....can you continue to meet your mission requirements?  On that same thread....what you are wearing is not going to make fly any better or worse.  Focusing on the mission is our primary concern.  Getting the job done.

Now...having said that...CAP has more missions than just flying.  We also have individual missions as CAP members.  One of them is presenting a good public image and a good professional image to our ES peers.  Uniforms help us with that mission.

So...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?

On the other hand...we got a guy who just does not wear any uniform (corporate or USAF) to any meetings or ES function.  A much grosser violation of both the letter and spirit of the regulation.  Do we loose his skills just for a uniform (or lack there of).

Again, we like to see things in black and white but it just ain't so.  We have hard and fast rules and we have some not so hard and fast ones.

We are not the military and we can't punish people other than sending them home, but we still have to get the mission done.

[davedove]

So...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?

Just a quick note, the CIB is one of the military badges that can be worn on the AF style uniform.

I do understand your point about mission accomplishment though.  We don't want to get so hung up on the details that we miss the big picture.  We don't want to find out someone has died when we arrive five minutes too late because the team wasn't allowed to leave until Officer Joe repositioned his rank insignia properly.

At normal meetings though, is the time to notice the details.

[carnold1836]

So...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?

I for one am not going to tell the individual that ERANED the CIB he can't wear it because it's not specifically stated he can. I will fall back on the reg that refers to ribbons and being awarded by a competent military body or some such thing and say he can wear it.

On the other hand...we got a guy who just does not wear any uniform (corporate or USAF) to any meetings or ES function.  A much grosser violation of both the letter and spirit of the regulation.  Do we loose his skills just for a uniform (or lack there of).

Try to find out what his objection to wearing the uniform is. As for ES missions (AF assigned mission number) he is REQUIRED to wear the uniform in accordance to CAPM 39-1 to be covered under insurance. As for meetings the rgulations state a uniform must be worn during any CAP activity. So he can come to the meeting wearing the uniform, even the (dreaded by me) golf shirt/ gray slacks combo and contribute or he can come to the meeting not wearing a uniform but do nothing.

[DrJbdm]

Yes, getting the mission done and having it done right is the most important issue...However that being said, everything plays into the next. If you make a concerted effort to make your uniform correct and wear it in a manner that is sharp and professional and you mandate that same standard and enforce it, well the details you put into that small aspect will work it's self into the next aspect...everything is linked together. The guy on the mission who is the most capable is probably the same guy who wears his uniform sharply. We train people to that mission level competence by first getting them focused on the smaller things, it's a building process. Sometimes seemingly unrelated items are actually related.

   Will some people leave CAP because we make them wear a military style uniform (TPU or AF) to the same standards as the military? sure they will. But will others join because of it? of course. The point here is to maintain good order and discipline and those are things that are very much a part of any mission...and yes, correct and sharp uniform wear is a big part of it. it's all interrelated.

  My opinion on uniforms?? ditch the Golf shirt (unless your going golfing, then give me a call!!) ditch the gray slacks/white shirt combo (can't stand that uniform) and stick with the AF style and the white shirt/blue AF pants (TPU?) both of those uniform combos are sharp, both look close enough to create uniformity, and the standards for wear are the same...except for weight. And if you can't meet the grooming standard then I think the golf shirt is OK, I kinda like it better then the white shirt/Grey slacks thingy anyway... just my opinion and not really the topic of this discussion.

Either way, uniforms are required, are there limited exceptions for meetings?? sure..sometimes we come right from work and we forget our uniform..it's the exception rather than the rule... I think we are all talking about the people who on a regular basis fail to meet the standard. Those are the people who need to be addressed and addressed quickly. If you let it slide, it will only get worse and the whole unit will suffer for it. have one standard and enforce it, anything less is unacceptable.

[CAP428]

Take a minute and think about what you're suggesting.  Are you really suggesting that members not in the proper uniform should wear one from "a nice box of not-quite-fashionable and not-quite-so-well fitting garments"?  How does that fix the problem?

Oh, I know exactly what I'm suggesting.  And yes, it would work.  It does in school, and CAP is really no different.

Perhaps you misunderstood; the Box is not full of uniform items, it is full of clothes like the free giveaway NASCAR t shirts and ugly ripped jeans.

Trust me, most members would much rather go home and properly assemble their uniform than have to wear the clothes from the Box.  It would work, and it would fix the problem.  In other words, this system works because it assumes people have a certain level of pride.  And the vast majority of people would rather wear a uniform properly than be told to take off a uniform and substitute it with crappy, 10-XL tshirts.

Once again, limit their options (ugly tshirt, or neatly-arranged uniform) and they are much more willing to comply.  It would work, and I yes, I know what I'm suggesting.

[DrJbdm]

CAP is vastly different then school. We are not some young High school junior whom can be told to change clothes into these "rags" We're (or at least supposed to be) professionals and you would never see such a thing as a box of clothes in main stream corporate America. My wifes law Firm doesn't have such a box and my brother in laws corporation doesn't have such a box, I don't see that working any better then asking them to simply go home and change. Thats what works in corporate America.

[Hawk200]

So...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?

This surprises me, lordmonar. This is in the manual. Civil Air Patrol Manual 39-1. The uniform manual.

For further reference: Page 116, Table 6-5, US Military Badges Authorized on CAP Service Uniforms and BDUs, Line 3, Combat Infantry or Army Medical Badge.

Why didn't you know that? Not a challenge, I'm legtimately wondering.

Second, if we educate people as to why we wear the uniforms, instead of just forcing compliance, we get a team. Not a bunch of conscripts. Same principle as leading a horse to water.

[shorning]

Why didn't you know that?

Because if he needed to know it, he would have looked it up.  Not everyone has a copy of the reg open to the proper page when posting to an internet forum.  Additionally, there are subtle differences between the Air Force and CAP uniform manuals.

[MIKE]

Probably because the latest AFI 36-2903 is far more restrictive on wear of such badges.

[Eclipse]

...Not everyone has a copy of the reg open to the proper page when posting to an internet forum... 

You're right!  Why look something up and quote an authority when you can speculate wildly online!   

[MIKE]

Chillax Eclipse.

[Hawk200]

Why didn't you know that?

Because if he needed to know it, he would have looked it up.  Not everyone has a copy of the reg open to the proper page when posting to an internet forum.  Additionally, there are subtle differences between the Air Force and CAP uniform manuals.

I see that point. But I'm hoping that he did not just tell the person that it wasn't unauthorized. And it's something that you can always tell someone that you'll look it up and get back to them.

This disturbs me somewhat because if that person read the manual later, and discovered that it was authorized, it will hurt that persons trust in you. I make a point of telling someone I will get back to them, unless I've recently something about in the reg and am sure of it.

[shorning]

You're right!  Why look something up and quote an authority when you can speculate wildly online!   

I wasn't talking about your posting style...


Relax.  Un-bunch your shorts.  Go look for someone to 2b or something.

[Chaplaindon]

Two points:

1. As far as adult "Officers" are concerned, uniform wear is NOT mandatory except while directly administering the cadet program or flying in a CAP aircraft.

For the VAST majority of members it is wholly optional.

To wit, I suspect that members put out by the high-horse-i-ness of a unit commander demanding they stand for inspection would elect to either (a) "miss" the meeting when the inspection is to be held or (b) elect to wear civies. In either case "voting/vetoing with their feet" the inane policy. In short, it won't work, it can't work.

2.  As a near 25 year veteran of CAP, VERY active in ES and operations (and an IC to boot) my observations (albeit anecdotal) lead me to conclude that an overwhelming majority of those who complain the loudest about professionalism and appearance in uniform are the LEAST adept at anything resembling operational competence.

I say let the "fashion/uniform nitpickers" enforce their petty tyrany --like Miss. Manners at a debutante tea party-- while the "real CAP" membership seeks to save lives and defend our borders.

To CAP as a whole, where uniforms are concerned, I say GROW UP.

[mmouw]

I don't agree at all. It has been my experience that those not in uniform are usually there for one thing, flying. The 25 years that you have been in I am sure there have been many changes. In the 15 that I have been around for, the flying clubs have for the most part disappeared. What remains are the true CAPers that are there to help those in need and not to get low cost flying time. This has happened because of the revision in the publications that have given more responsibility to the members in all aspects of CAP.

Is it the end of the world if we don't all meet uniform standards, no but it does speak volumes about your professional image and that of ALL CAPers out there. So excuse me if I have standards that I will never waiver from in order to present CAP in the highest possible light. We wonder why the Air Force is distancing themselves from us, it is because we are to wrapped up in not doing something we were told we have to by the AF. If anyone needs to grow up, it would be those who stick their noses up in the air when it comes to all regulations including 39-1.

If you are in a Composite Squadron, then you are directly influencing the cadets, even if you don't think so. I have been a cadet guy since the beginning and I can tell you they don't have time or respect for someone who doesn't conform to the standards. It seems to be the Officer who needs the most help is the one who always sticks their nose in a cadet's face to question improper uniform issues. NOT ON MY WATCH!!!!

[DNall]

So...we got some ex army guy who just has to wear his Combat Infantryman's Badge (which I believe is not authorized) do we loose what ever skills he brings to the table for a badge?

Just a quick note, the CIB is one of the military badges that can be worn on the AF style uniform.

I do understand your point about mission accomplishment though.  We don't want to get so hung up on the details that we miss the big picture.  We don't want to find out someone has died when we arrive five minutes too late because the team wasn't allowed to leave until Officer Joe repositioned his rank insignia properly.

At normal meetings though, is the time to notice the details.

With due respect, we also don't want to have the CAP plane crash & there be no insurance coverage for the families because the member wore gray BDU pants w/ his golf shirt.

You don't show up with a cadet GT & & go run DnC in teh parking lot for an hour to test their attention to detail before you take them in the field. Back in garrison is the time & place to take care of attention to detail, then that officer won't show up to a mission in incorrect uniform & force the risk mgmt judgement call on the IC/GBD/AOBD about if they need to be sent home or not.

By the way, whoever that was talking about showing up to a SaREx w/ a two-week beard & green flt suit, I'd have made you shave or go home before you could sign in, AND would have some choice words for your commander - that's actually how I'd treat you for a real mission, being it's a SaREx that's the good mood treatment. If I'm having a bad day yuo might get the choice words direct from the source & sent home. There's no tolerance on that, especially when you can walk in the bathroom & fix it.


By the way, on the CIB & few other things, there's an issue on that. CAP regs say in a couple places that only badges auth on the AF uniform (ref AFI) are allowed. That's the directive from the AF. Then 39-1 gives a quick ref table that shows COB among others & was drawn from an interpreation base don the old AFI.  

The older AFI was less restrictive. If I'm not mistaken, it said a longer list of badges earned w/ other services could be retained when no longer serving w/ that service. For instance, I knew a TACP guy serving as a recruiter who wore some Army stuff.

The official CAP interpretation at that time was that if there was any circumstance under which it would be allowed on an AF uniform then it was good to go for CAP.

Then the new AFI came along. It says a shorter list of badges are auth ONLY while serving with & drirectly attached to an Army (other service) unit, BUT they must be removed when you come back to the AF (even for a course over a certain duration).

So, the new official CAP interpretation is that those badges are NOT authorized for CAP because you are not in your capacity as a CAP member directly assigned under the command of an Army unit. The same thing applies to AF duty badges (cops, fire, etc) in which those badges are auth in the AF while serving in that capacity, which you are not doing as a CAP member.

It gets a little fuzzy on some things. Basically what they're saying right now is the chart in the reg is out of date, but if it lists it there then it is authorized until the reg is fixed, otherwise if it's open to interpretation then it's generally not auth.

Now should you tell that person they can't wear the badge & potentially lose them over it? Well that's rough, but you really can't be blackmailed into breaking regs because you're scared of losing people. I've seen Ranger & SF tabs that I won't say anything about cause I don't think I have the right to tell that person they can't wear it, but otherwise I'll mention it privately & show them the refs then leave it up to them. As long as it's not so freakin obvious as a CIB then it's not so bad. I'm much more worried about serious violations that harm CAP's image, endanger our insurance/liability coverage, and reflect an attention to detail and/or attitude toward regs that makes me think this person is dangerous to be around. I'm not sayin I don't have the fortitude to tell one of those guy to take off his tab & hold him to it, but I'd excercise my latitude to take care of the big problems & work my way toward the back of the list. To be honest, most people just don't know & really would do the right thing with just a little instruction. It's the ones that can't or won't that you need to worry about.