Should uniform inspections be a required part of senior member meetings?

Started by RiverAux, December 12, 2006, 04:25:20 AM

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flyguy06

You make good points, but how do you enforce this? I understand what the regs say, but what do you do if a member doesnt pay attention to the regs? They will continue to say "This is a volunteer organization" and I hate it when they say that. So how do you enforce it? You cant take any pay or forbid them from participating in activities. SO, what do you do?

CAP428

Well, the first time they violate a uniform reg (like wearing unauthorized combos or something, not just having insignia an 1/8th of an inch off skew or anything) you can say, "Next time you come to a CAP meeting/event/whatever, you need to wear the proper uniform."

If next time they show up and it's still wrong, you offer them a last warning: "Wear the uniform properly or you will not be allowed to participate."

And if heaven forbid they do show up a third time w/o being in compliance, you tell them they must either change clothes or leave.

I can think of one way to enforce it:  My school has a nice box of not-quite-fashionable and not-quite-so-well fitting garments that were left at school and stuff for those that violate dress code.  You could get a similar collection of donated/old clothes and if all the above things do not get them to change, you can tell them to wear the clothes in the box or go home.  [Note: since uniform wear is required during CAP activities, you will probably rarely actually need to force someone to wear them, since they wouldn't be able to actually actively participate in civilian clothes anyway.  If your option is wear the box of clothes or go home, they will probably go home and arrive in proper uniform the next time.]

In other words, only being firm and stubborn will solve it.  It is simple.  If they are not in proper uniform compliance, they may not participate.  Just as if they didn't have a CAPID or something like that.

Limit their options, and they are more likely to comply.

lordmonar

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 12, 2006, 10:37:37 PM
So how do you enforce it? You cant take any pay or forbid them from participating in activities. SO, what do you do?

Sure you can!  "If you are not in an appropriate uniform...you will be asked to leave."

It is as simple as that.

If you see a member not wearing his uniform properly (either in a formal inspection of at any meeting) you tell him what needs to be corrected and tell him you expect it is correct the next time you see him or you will ask him to leave.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

shorning

Quote from: CAP428 on December 12, 2006, 11:02:24 PM
I can think of one way to enforce it:  My school has a nice box of not-quite-fashionable and not-quite-so-well fitting garments that were left at school and stuff for those that violate dress code.  You could get a similar collection of donated/old clothes and if all the above things do not get them to change, you can tell them to wear the clothes in the box or go home.  [Note: since uniform wear is required during CAP activities, you will probably rarely actually need to force someone to wear them, since they wouldn't be able to actually actively participate in civilian clothes anyway.  If your option is wear the box of clothes or go home, they will probably go home and arrive in proper uniform the next time.

Take a minute and think about what you're suggesting.  Are you really suggesting that members not in the proper uniform should wear one from "a nice box of not-quite-fashionable and not-quite-so-well fitting garments"?  How does that fix the problem?

ZigZag911

Most SUIs (Subordinate Unit Inspections, conducted by Group or Wing) include an inspection of ALL personnel.

Perhaps in the context of preparing for that event, a periodic uniform inspection might be worthwhile.

Also, consider a periodic 'uniforms, customs & courtesies review' for senior members only....open the floor to questions, have some one knowledgeable but not condescending lead the session

RiverAux

QuoteI disagree that they should be the only way, which is basically what RiverAux is proposing. 
I didn't say that a formation of officers where uniforms would be inspected was the only way to do it.  What I said was that the current regulation, which as was pointed out, requires commanders to ensure compliance, isn't working. 

This is like saying that it is required that CAP members fly safely but then not specifying how squadrons and Wings should make sure this happens. 

Yes, a real squared away CAP commander would probably not need this prod, but it it is obvious that these are not all that common, at least in regards to uniform wear. 

In cadet squadrons this can easily be accomplished by having the seniors in formation getting inspected at the same times the cadets are.  With composite squadrons in which all officers and cadets meet on the same night, they could also take care of it in this fashion.  I'm sorry the say, the problem probably mostly lies with senior squadrons or in composite squadrons in which the cadets and officers meet on different nights. 

Yes, the wearing of the golf shirt is becoming more and more prevelant (I have even started wearing one every now and again) and I'm not sure what to do about that.  Not a lot to inspect there. 

flyguy06

Quote from: lordmonar on December 12, 2006, 11:48:49 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 12, 2006, 10:37:37 PM
So how do you enforce it? You cant take any pay or forbid them from participating in activities. SO, what do you do?

Sure you can!  "If you are not in an appropriate uniform...you will be asked to leave."

It is as simple as that.

If you see a member not wearing his uniform properly (either in a formal inspection of at any meeting) you tell him what needs to be corrected and tell him you expect it is correct the next time you see him or you will ask him to leave.



That sounds great, but if I did that I would never see them again and we are talking about most members in my unit

carnold1836

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 13, 2006, 04:38:50 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 12, 2006, 11:48:49 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 12, 2006, 10:37:37 PM
So how do you enforce it? You cant take any pay or forbid them from participating in activities. SO, what do you do?

Sure you can!  "If you are not in an appropriate uniform...you will be asked to leave."

It is as simple as that.

If you see a member not wearing his uniform properly (either in a formal inspection of at any meeting) you tell him what needs to be corrected and tell him you expect it is correct the next time you see him or you will ask him to leave.



That sounds great, but if I did that I would never see them again and we are talking about most members in my unit

I hate to be the one that says this, but if the member will not wear a uniform correctly to the specified regulation then maybe they don't need to be a member.

Regulations and manuals are there for a purpose, they are the guidelines as to how this organization works. They are very much like employee handbooks of private sector corporations, you don't abide by the employee handbook and are unwilling to correct your actions you get fired.

Just because this is a volunteer organization doesn't give someone the right to forgo the regulations. I personaly dislike the excuse of "I'm a volunteer, what can they do, fire me?" Quick answer, YES!!! If it gets to that point simply note all discussions and if it comes to it ask the member to not come back untill they have corrected the infraction. The reason you note these discussions is so there is documentation of what was said jsut in cas the member gets froggy and decides to take the "legal" route. I dearly hope no one ever has to go through that great amount of work just to get someone to wear thier uniform correctly.

Being a volunteer means I am freely giving my time to assist in the mission of this organization and will follow all rules and guidelines set forth by said organization.

Again just my .02
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

A.Member

Quote from: carnold1836 on December 13, 2006, 01:51:54 PM
I hate to be the one that says this, but if the member will not wear a uniform correctly to the specified regulation then maybe they don't need to be a member.

Regulations and manuals are there for a purpose, they are the guidelines as to how this organization works. They are very much like employee handbooks of private sector corporations, you don't abide by the employee handbook and are unwilling to correct your actions you get fired.

Just because this is a volunteer organization doesn't give someone the right to forgo the regulations. I personaly dislike the excuse of "I'm a volunteer, what can they do, fire me?" Quick answer, YES!!! If it gets to that point simply note all discussions and if it comes to it ask the member to not come back untill they have corrected the infraction. The reason you note these discussions is so there is documentation of what was said jsut in cas the member gets froggy and decides to take the "legal" route. I dearly hope no one ever has to go through that great amount of work just to get someone to wear thier uniform correctly.

Being a volunteer means I am freely giving my time to assist in the mission of this organization and will follow all rules and guidelines set forth by said organization.

Again just my .02
x2!
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

Eclipse

Quote from: A.Member on December 13, 2006, 02:40:38 PM
Quote from: carnold1836 on December 13, 2006, 01:51:54 PM
I hate to be the one that says this, but if the member will not wear a uniform correctly to the specified regulation then maybe they don't need to be a member.
x2!

x3

"That Others May Zoom"

DNall

Quote from: carnold1836 on December 13, 2006, 01:51:54 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 13, 2006, 04:38:50 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 12, 2006, 11:48:49 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 12, 2006, 10:37:37 PM
So how do you enforce it? You cant take any pay or forbid them from participating in activities. SO, what do you do?

Sure you can!  "If you are not in an appropriate uniform...you will be asked to leave."

It is as simple as that.

If you see a member not wearing his uniform properly (either in a formal inspection of at any meeting) you tell him what needs to be corrected and tell him you expect it is correct the next time you see him or you will ask him to leave.

That sounds great, but if I did that I would never see them again and we are talking about most members in my unit

I hate to be the one that says this, but if the member will not wear a uniform correctly to the specified regulation then maybe they don't need to be a member.

Regulations and manuals are there for a purpose, they are the guidelines as to how this organization works. They are very much like employee handbooks of private sector corporations, you don't abide by the employee handbook and are unwilling to correct your actions you get fired.

Just because this is a volunteer organization doesn't give someone the right to forgo the regulations. I personaly dislike the excuse of "I'm a volunteer, what can they do, fire me?" Quick answer, YES!!! If it gets to that point simply note all discussions and if it comes to it ask the member to not come back untill they have corrected the infraction. The reason you note these discussions is so there is documentation of what was said jsut in cas the member gets froggy and decides to take the "legal" route. I dearly hope no one ever has to go through that great amount of work just to get someone to wear thier uniform correctly.

Being a volunteer means I am freely giving my time to assist in the mission of this organization and will follow all rules and guidelines set forth by said organization.

Again just my .02
x4

And, just to back that up.
1) "It IS a volunteer organization. You're free to voluntarily join, and you're free to voluntarily quit. At no other time are you free to do whatever you want unless you want me as your commander to voluntarily kick you the hell out."

2) Of course warn your people a month in advance that you'll be starting this & taking it seriously, including the range of penalties that WILL be used. It doesn't have to be a 1st/2nd/3rd violation kind of thing, just a range & a concept of how quick it can move to the bad end. And do those refresher classes (that's a good idea) 15-30min a night for that month. Then get down to business.

3) You'll go with the take those blue slides off blue shirt phase first, then go home & we'll see you next time with it right, then take a week off to think about what you're doing here & if you're willing to live by the rules or not, THEN you're talking about restricting people on to formal suspension for a period, and really once they've repeatedly refused to comply with orders to follow regs then you're starting into 2b territory, which is a threat I'd never oull out.

By the way, we're starting something... we're going to do formal inspections first two nights of the month - opening, then cadets open ranks & run their inspection, seniors lined up on the side (colors just went up) stay in line & get looked over by Sq CC. I don't even care if it helps the quality of their uniforms, I like that cadets see them being inspected even though they can't hear or see what's being said/done. That shared experience I think makes a difference. Now, since we're doing it, that will also give the commander the chance to broach the subject with people that have been a problem (I wasn't kidding about blue slides on a blues shirt, w/ an enlisted flt hat too - oh & one time w/a confederate kepi).

lordmonar

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 13, 2006, 04:38:50 AM
Quote from: lordmonar on December 12, 2006, 11:48:49 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on December 12, 2006, 10:37:37 PM
So how do you enforce it? You cant take any pay or forbid them from participating in activities. SO, what do you do?

Sure you can!  "If you are not in an appropriate uniform...you will be asked to leave."

It is as simple as that.

If you see a member not wearing his uniform properly (either in a formal inspection of at any meeting) you tell him what needs to be corrected and tell him you expect it is correct the next time you see him or you will ask him to leave.



That sounds great, but if I did that I would never see them again and we are talking about most members in my unit

Well, there you go.  You can't have your cake and eat it too.  If you think enforcing uniforms standards are going to hurt your squadron...you have to make the call.  We are a volunteer organization we have no other recourse to enforce our standards except to say...if you don't tow the line...then you can't play.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

flyguy06

Oh, I agree with you totally. I dont think folks take so seriously to warrent legal action though, its not worth the costs. They will just leave and not come back. And there lies the problem. We already have a recruiting problem, so wher edo we draw the line between doing the right theng and retaining our members? Hey, You all know I am straight up military so I am all about following the regs, but when you deal with civilain volunteers it can get kind of scetchy.

flyguy06

Plus, I am not the Commander. I cant make the final decisoion (although I wish I could) and the commander is an elderly guy that wants to make noce with everybody

lordmonar

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 13, 2006, 03:31:59 PM
Oh, I agree with you totally. I dont think folks take so seriously to warrent legal action though, its not worth the costs. They will just leave and not come back. And there lies the problem. We already have a recruiting problem, so wher edo we draw the line between doing the right theng and retaining our members? Hey, You all know I am straight up military so I am all about following the regs, but when you deal with civilain volunteers it can get kind of scetchy.

That is the nub of the problem.  How seriously are you going to take the uniform reg?  The bottom line though...is that you (the commander) sets the tone.  You let your members know what is expected of them and then you enforce it.  If you piss off a bunch of your members and they quit...you are just going to have to bite that bullet if/when it comes.

You simply can't have it both ways.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

DNall

I don't know about you guys, but I've never seen a recruiting problem in CAP. I can throw people out left & right & it seems like they'll replace themselves w/ zero effort on our part just as fast. The only reason I actually recruit is to get a batch of cadets at one time rather than regular strgglers spread over the quarter. The problem we have is retention, and I don't want to retain people that litterally cannot follow insptructions after multiple attempts to get them to comply with regs. I teach cadets that they learn drill, in order to learn things like discipine & bearing, which in turn mean professionalism & skill, which in turn mean the differecen between someone getting hurt or killed in the field or not. The same is true of uniforms. If they refuse to follow the reg & blatantly flaunt that fact, what about when it's a silly little safety reg, or flight checklist item that's never mattered before? There's a reason we do the things we do the way we do them, get with that or get out - if they leave then you'll get a darwinian sort of process to a more squared away looking unit, either wy you're going to get there. If I'm going to have a retention problem, I might as well get some good out of it.

By the way folks, there's a whole range of options before making people leave or not come to a meeting... take off the offending item if possible, simplly telling them what's wrong, reminding them that it's again wrong & they need to fix it, explaining WHY it is important to comply w/ regs & this one especially, explain the range of more serious options you're about to get into if thay don't straighten up. You see just telling people there's a problem & it won't be tolerated is the biggest step. I doubt very seriously it'd ever come to pushing someone out.

mmouw

Proper uniform wear and use is MANDITORY!!! There is no almost right or close enough when it comes to image. Image is everything in CAP. I am not talking about uniforms only, but the image that you project to the public by our actions and ideas. The uniform is an extension of this image. We would not allow someone who is knowing stealing items from the local WalMart to remain in CAP because it would project a bad image of our morale character. And yes we would all be judged by what another member does!!

I am not talking about holding an open ranks inspection and acting like a DI (TI-AF). Hold your inspections politely but firmly inform them of their errors and move on. Holding uniform classes would also help teach them how to. 39-1 is not a tuff read by any means, and it even has pictures. So if you don't have former or current military members, it is all right there.

I have been in squadrons that are 95% military and one that was just me being fromer AF. Surprisingly there were more uniform violations with the military than with that one little squadron. The non military squadron had the desirer to want to do right and it showed. When I first arrived there I guessed by the way they performed and looked they were all former military. Addressing each other by grade and last name, proper customs and curtices, and uniform wear. Again it is all about image and self respect!!!

When you look, are treated, and act like a CAP officer you will be a CAP officer. Once again image is everything.
Mike Mouw
Commander, Iowa Wing

Hotel 179

Hello All,

We have members who are often coming straight to the meeting from another meeting and have been running all day.  I'm the squadron commander so I budget my time to allow a quick change into something "CAP" but the fact is that sometimes my Ground Team Leader has just parked his CAT and jumped right off....One of my Mission Pilots is a real estate agent and has been showing homes.  The majority follow my lead, but sometimes the decision has to be, "Do I go to the meeting in jeans and work shirt or not?".  Of course I want them to come to the meeting.

I got dinged last month for showing up at a SAR wearing my green flight suit, nomex jacket and a two-week beard.  (Chief, I know that you are reading this :) ) My zipper on the blue flight suit is busted and the decision to grow a beard was a result of a little good natured ribbing from some of the folks at work but I was flying our little red/white/blue aircraft on a actual mission with a two-week growth of beard on my face.  Now you know as well as I do that the decision to not allow beards in the military has more to do with gas-mask seals and regulators than anything else, but the rule is the rule.  There was not an issue made of the beard at the time, we had a job to do.  I did have an e-mail in the in-box later that night reminding me that facial hair and the military style uniform is a no-no   :o

The most vocal opponents of the uniform wear comes from my former military folks that wore one at work every day and now prefer to not wear one if they don' t have to.....same goes for the ribbons.  They'll say, "Spend the money and buy me a beer instead....I don't want to look like a Panamanian Dictator."  Down here on the coast we are pushing for a Bermuda shorts/flowery shirt combination  with the stick-on HELLO, MY NAME IS tags.

Semper vi, y'all.

Stephen
Stephen Pearce, Capt/CAP
FL 424
Pensacola, Florida

carnold1836

Quote from: flyguy06 on December 13, 2006, 03:31:59 PM
Oh, I agree with you totally. I dont think folks take so seriously to warrent legal action though, its not worth the costs. They will just leave and not come back. And there lies the problem. We already have a recruiting problem, so wher edo we draw the line between doing the right theng and retaining our members? Hey, You all know I am straight up military so I am all about following the regs, but when you deal with civilain volunteers it can get kind of scetchy.

Where do we draw the line on keeping someone that refuses to wear a uniform correctly. The first action we need to do is find out why the member is haveing difficulty wearing the uniform of their choice in a way that is wrong. Are they incapable for some reason? Are they ignorant and need training? Are they Lazy? Do they just don't care? Find out help them fix the issue, if they are willing. If they aren't willing then they don't need to be here and show them the door. As DNall pointed out, if they can't/won't follow this regulation what other regs are they going to cut corners on.

If they don't care/lazy I say good ridance. We don't have a recruiting problem, we have a retention problem. Personaly I am tired of seeing bloated membership levels.  We can't go to NHQ with the claim of retention when close to 25% or more of the "active" membership roster is people that don't show or are a hazzard because they refuse to work with in the regs and guidlines, which is just as bad. I know that wearing the uniform improperly isn't hazardous but it just shows that the member is possibly not willing to follow safety regs as well.

If we have to get rid of dead weight then so be it. If it cuts into our membership numbers, so be it. If it makes NHQ see taht there other issues out there besides uniform options, great.

Sometimes you have to prune a tree for it to grow new life, sometimes that pruning is drastic. I say lets get pruning and get on with Civil Air Patrol growing new life and becoming healthy once again.
Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron

carnold1836

Quote from: Hotel 179 on December 13, 2006, 04:08:44 PM
Hello All,

We have members who are often coming straight to the meeting from another meeting and have been running all day.  I'm the squadron commander so I budget my time to allow a quick change into something "CAP" but the fact is that sometimes my Ground Team Leader has just parked his CAT and jumped right off....One of my Mission Pilots is a real estate agent and has been showing homes.  The majority follow my lead, but sometimes the decision has to be, "Do I go to the meeting in jeans and work shirt or not?".  Of course I want them to come to the meeting.

That is understandable, as long ss it is the exception and not the rule. By no means am I saying kick the sorry SOB out because he showed up right after work and din't get a chance to run home and change. Just don't make it a every meeting thing.

QuoteI got dinged last month for showing up at a SAR wearing my green flight suit, nomex jacket and a two-week beard.  (Chief, I know that you are reading this :) ) My zipper on the blue flight suit is busted and the decision to grow a beard was a result of a little good natured ribbing from some of the folks at work but I was flying our little red/white/blue aircraft on a actual mission with a two-week growth of beard on my face.  Now you know as well as I do that the decision to not allow beards in the military has more to do with gas-mask seals and regulators than anything else, but the rule is the rule.  There was not an issue made of the beard at the time, we had a job to do.  I did have an e-mail in the in-box later that night reminding me that facial hair and the military style uniform is a no-no   :o

In my opinion this was handled in the proper fasion. Should you have shaved before going since you knew your blue nomes was not operational, sure but you made a decsion not to an were reprimanded accordingly. This doesn't seem to be an on going situatin with you so who ever sent you the notice noted it and went on.

QuoteThe most vocal opponents of the uniform wear comes from my former military folks that wore one at work every day and now prefer to not wear one if they don' t have to.....same goes for the ribbons.  They'll say, "Spend the money and buy me a beer instead....I don't want to look like a Panamanian Dictator."

I can understand there hesitance to put the monkee suit back on, but if they want to serve here in CAP they HAVE to abide by the regulations. It is their choice to serve, but it is not there choice to not wear the uniform. As for the ribbons if I'm not mistaken those are optional on the AF/Aviator shirt only uniform and as for the AF/Corp service coat I belive it states some or all, correct me if I'm wrong.

QuoteDown here on the coast we are pushing for a Bermuda shorts/flowery shirt combination  with the stick-on HELLO, MY NAME IS tags.
Semper vi, y'all.

Stephen

Personaly I'm all for it put me in as a yes vote. With the understanding that it is used as a "garrison" uniform when not handling missions or dealing with cadets.

Chris Arnold, 1st Lt, CAP
Pegasus Composite Squadron