Ground Teams should stay out of the woods

[lordmonar]

I've been sitting on this one for a while now....but this perfectly illistrates my heart burn with military (and CAP) safety types.

I understand that they are honestly trying to do their job to keep us safe.....but they seem to have zero understanding about our people and our mission.

Idiots push their plane into a hanger......everyone needs to watch a video.
Cadet trips on a root......everyone needs to stay out of unknown areas...or do a daylight walk through.

What we do as part of our programs and missions are risky.

Accpet it.

Stop trying to use a single incident to apply a blanket fix.

[/rant]

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Had to think about it for a while.

Even the Army knows and uses ORM. Even though, men and women die every day during ground operations, I know CAP is not in a war nor are we combatants, but the same idea and lessons can be learned from. You can't control who dies or why, what they did wrong, what we did wrong, who is at fault or what. You just got to accept that there is risk involved in our job, it's just part of what we do.

Shugart and Gordon knew that when they went to secure a helicopter site in Somalia. They knew they were taking a huge risk. They knew it and still went in and they did it full knowing that they would probably die. We in CAP do not go into a search and rescue mission thinking we will die, but we will go in knowing that there is some risk to what we do. We could fall into a ditch or ravine and break an arm or a leg. Soldiers do it for each other. We do it for those who cannot save themselves in an environment that is in many cases their backyard.

We just need to remember that no matter what there is risk involved in what we do. We cannot always see what that risk is, but we will always do our best to mitigate that risk with ORM and common sense.

No matter what there is risk involved in what we do. But if we weren't there to do it, there would be many lives that are lost. I would gladly sprain an ankle if it means that I was helping to save a fellow American's life.

[desertengineer1]

The fundamental premise is as it sounds - risk management.  The risks in a particular activity are managed accordingly. 

Night missions, for example, would include flashlights, reflective vests, and maybe glow-sticks on personnel, with more active accountability procedures.

Wooded areas with significant trip hazards = same.  Closer spacing.  Slower pace.  Visual contact with team members.

Hangar rash = additional mitigation techniques.  Marked spots on floors, reduction of clutter around parking areas, even "stop rails" anchored into the floors.

This is NOT to prevent activities, just additional, proactive measures concentrated on "landmines" that would have prevented previous incidents.

I don't understand why we continue to have members who just don't "get it" with respect to risk management.

Out here in the AOR, we do the same thing.  Because a large number of non-combat related injuries and deaths are due to people getting run over by vehicles at night or during times or reduced visibility.  Therefore, you have to wear reflective belts on operational bases during those conditions.  Our guys are consistantly injured while cutting communication cables - therefore extra emphasis is placed on protective gloves, removal of jewelry, and safety observers.  Those, in-turn, are briefed before every work shift.

It's a simple process.

[RiverAux]

desert, I don't think anyone is against a practical approach to conducting operations, but that isn't what was being passed down in this case. 

[JeffDG]

ORM is risk management, not risk avoidance.

Let's take the example of a ground team in the woods on an exercise. 

What's wrong with having someone survey the area for potential hazards in advance of the exercise?  You have a known risk situation, so why not try and mitigate that risk?

Are you going to be able to pre-survey on an actual ground search...no.  But that's not the point.  You assess risks with as much information as possible.

If you want to make the training realistic, have someone other than the people on the ground team do the pre-survey and simply brief on the significant hazards that are found.  You don't need to brief every tree root or rock, but if there's a sudden drop off in one area, it is helpful to know that.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Sometimes the Safety types are silly, and sometimes they're spot on.

For example, I applaud the decision to go forward with the ANSI Class II vests. Good decision all around.

This, however, is silly. A tree root is not what a normal person would consider to be a risk. If tree roots were a risk, than most people's front yards would be no different than a mine field.

And there may be no statement from National saying this, but there is the less-than-Urban Myth that drives CP folks to demand that we wrap Cadets in bubblewrap (with Triangle Thingies painted on each bubble, mind you) and followed around by lawyers.

Sometimes, no matter how hard you try to prevent it, people get hurt. Sometimes badly.

Blanket fixes wont solve the problem.

[Spaceman3750]

You don't need to brief every tree root or rock, but if there's a sudden drop off in one area, it is helpful to know that.

A drop off steep enough to be dangerous should show on a topographic map, which the GTL and navigator should have reviewed the search area on and have briefed the team on any indicated obstacles.

[HGjunkie]

You don't need to brief every tree root or rock, but if there's a sudden drop off in one area, it is helpful to know that.

A drop off steep enough to be dangerous should show on a topographic map, which the GTL and navigator should have reviewed the search area on and have briefed the team on any indicated obstacles.

But what about a hole in the ground covered by natural debris, or a ditch?

[Eclipse]

But what about a hole in the ground covered by natural debris, or a ditch?

Or a Pit Trap set by the so-called "victims" designed to capture CAP members for food...and lets not forget the Predators!

[Spaceman3750]

Kidding aside, abandoned wells are a pretty big hazard to our ground teams. I suppose the best way to mitigate that risk is ask about the area you're going in to. In theory, the local PD, park ranger, whatever should at least have some inkling as to what lies in a given set of woods.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Or, (here's the big shocker) we could just keep doing as we were doing before the horrible tree root incident...

[Major Lord]

Kidding aside, abandoned wells are a pretty big hazard to our ground teams. I suppose the best way to mitigate that risk is ask about the area you're going in to. In theory, the local PD, park ranger, whatever should at least have some inkling as to what lies in a given set of woods.

So is this a purely potential threat ?( Like Unicorn attacks, East Australian Wombat Death Syndrome, etc.) Or have any of your ground team people actually gone down a well? Are your ground teams accident prone? I have never heard of a GTM falling down a well before.

Major Lord

[JC004]

Kidding aside, abandoned wells are a pretty big hazard to our ground teams. I suppose the best way to mitigate that risk is ask about the area you're going in to. In theory, the local PD, park ranger, whatever should at least have some inkling as to what lies in a given set of woods.

So is this a purely potential threat ?( Like Unicorn attacks, East Australian Wombat Death Syndrome, etc.) Or have any of your ground team people actually gone down a well? Are your ground teams accident prone? I have never heard of a GTM falling down a well before.

Major Lord

My ORM matrix always includes unicorn attacks. 

[Spaceman3750]

Kidding aside, abandoned wells are a pretty big hazard to our ground teams. I suppose the best way to mitigate that risk is ask about the area you're going in to. In theory, the local PD, park ranger, whatever should at least have some inkling as to what lies in a given set of woods.

So is this a purely potential threat ?( Like Unicorn attacks, East Australian Wombat Death Syndrome, etc.) Or have any of your ground team people actually gone down a well? Are your ground teams accident prone? I have never heard of a GTM falling down a well before.

Major Lord

No, none of our people have gone down a well (that I'm aware of). I was simply stating the fact that they're out there and they do pose a problem.

[tsrup]

You don't need to brief every tree root or rock, but if there's a sudden drop off in one area, it is helpful to know that.

A drop off steep enough to be dangerous should show on a topographic map, which the GTL and navigator should have reviewed the search area on and have briefed the team on any indicated obstacles.

But what about a hole in the ground covered by natural debris, or a ditch?

We had that issue on a missing person search a few years ago.  Our search area was littered with abandoned mine shafts which are pretty hard to see if you're not careful.  How did we solve the problem?

It was mentioned in a safety briefing, something along the lines of "Watch where you put your feet".  Seemed to cover tree roots, gopher holes, sharp rocks, badger's nests, mine shafts, and yes, predator pits. 

Unicorns on the other hand are masters of ambush...

Clever Girl..

[Major Lord]

Okay, so by "hazard" we mean "anything likely to result in death or injury, no matter how statistically unlikely, and even if it has never actually occurred. ". Got it, but that is a pretty wide statistical window to walk through. I think it rates a "watch out you don't fall in a hole" verbal warning at best, as opposed to a Well-Threat Power-Point safety briefing and mandatory 500 Yard safety perimeter. ( You "well-wishers" would be exempt if it is pre-approved by your Chaplain as a bona fide religious practice) FYI, those Unicorns would kill you and everyone you love given half a chance.......

Major Lord

[davedove]

Okay, so by "hazard" we mean "anything likely to result in death or injury, no matter how statistically unlikely, and even if it has never actually occurred. ".

Remember, the ORM matrix has both severity and probability.  For instance, it is always possible that a meteorite could strike one of our vans.  What is the probablity - pretty small, plus there is not much that can be done about it, so it isn't considered very long.  If it is known that abandoned wells and the like are in an area, then a word of caution is warranted, at least.

Unicorn attacks are fairly infrequent, but very severe.

[sardak]

I hate to post this for several reasons, not the least of which is the tragedy, but at the same time I couldn't pass up an opportunity.

FYI, those Unicorns would kill you and everyone you love given half a chance.......

Unicorn attacks are fairly infrequent, but very severe.

Man killed by goat in Olympic National Park

With two pointed horns, the ram fatally gored Boardman in the thigh, then stood over the man as he lay bleeding, staring at people trying to help.

"The mountain goat was terribly aggressive," Jessica Baccus, who was hiking with her family. "It wouldn't move. It stared us down."

As for the ORM.

Boardman's death on Saturday was the first human death caused by an animal in the 72-year-old history of Olympic National Park, park spokeswoman Barb Maynes said.

"[The goat] has shown aggressive behavior; however, nothing led us to believe us it was appropriate to take the next level, of removal," she said. "This is highly unusual.

"There's no record of anything similar in this park. "It's a tragedy. We are taking it extremely seriously and doing our best to learn as much as we can."

Park officials had posted signs at trailheads warning hikers to be watchful of all mountain goats and to stay at least 100 feet from the animals. Hikers are also warned not to urinate on or near the trail, because goats are attracted to the salt.

http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20101019/NEWS/310199988/hiker-died-while-warning-others-of-aggressive-mountain-goat
http://home.nps.gov/applications/digest/headline.cfm?type=Incidents&id=5419&urlarea=incidents

Mike

[C/Martin]

I am going to create a business that makes human sized bubble wrap and sell it through Vanguard to CAP parents for their cadets.  It'll be reflective, luminous and have flashing LED strobes to boot.  It'll come with a matching helmet and all.

Ill go into business with you. Should we also advertise as "fashionable for school too?"