The compiled list of CAP uniform suggestions....

[Hawk200]

Didn't look like anything was getting added on the other thread, so here's the compiled list.

1.   Replace ultramarine blue cloth with navy blue for all accoutrements on BDU's. (6)
2.   Authorize SM Officers to wear cloth grade insignia on BDU caps. (4) {Somebody listened!}
3.   Produce a grade insignia for C/AB. Utilize a shield without chevrons (3)
4.   Produce and authorize distinctive CAP Senior Member NCO grade insignia. (3)
5.   Standardize to a single recruiter ribbon. (3)
6.   Authorize cloth name/aviation badge patch on flight suit. (3)
7.   Authorize a cloth version of the Commanders badge for BDU's. (3)
8.   Authorize light gray BDU or six pocket pants for wear with the blue golf shirt. (2)
9.   Authorize khaki, or light gray BDU uniform for summer. (2)
10.   Eliminate American flag on BDU's. (2)
11.   Require Cadet Airman rank on both collars for all uniform variations. (2)
12.   Eliminate Group Commander badge; mirror USAF wear standards (2)
13.   Authorize sewn on color grade for green flight suit. (2)
14.   Approve brown leather A-2, with distinctive CAP nametag, for wear with Blues. (2)
15.   Require wear of only tapes, grade, cloth badges and wings on the BDU uniforms. (2)
16.   Produce and authorize a cloth Model Rocketry badge, mirroring the existing metal badge in design. Require wear on left pocket. (2)
17.   Eliminate golf shirt as a mission uniform. Casual wear in garrison. (2)
18.   Require Nomex flightsuits for flight. (2)
19.   Approve blue pants/white shirt as alternate uniform; eliminate white/grays. (2)
20.   Eliminate CAP cutouts from light blue shirts for SM and SM NCOs. (2)
21.   Implement a phase out date on the older service coat. (2)
22.   Eliminate corporate uniforms. (2)
23.   Approve no-shine brown (tan?) boots with utility uniforms. (2)
24.   Authorize a standard physical fitness uniform.
25.   Produce aircrew wings for scanners and aircrew other than pilot/observer.
26.   Eliminate Blue BDU's.
27.   Consolidate uniforms to one Air Force version, and one corporate version.
28.   Combine the Corporate Service Dress Uniform and CAP Distinctive uniforms.
29.   Authorize cadet officers to wear cloth rank insignia on flight uniforms.
30.   Return to cadet enlisted wearing rank on one collar, "CAP" insignia on other.
31.   Require "CAP" under/over rank insignia on headgear.
32.   Standardize epaulettes for cadets and seniors to a single color (gray?).
33.   Eliminate jumpsuit.
34.   Permit wear of any badge on flightsuit leather nametag; allow multiple badges.
35.   Remove metal insignia from new corporate service coat. Use same insignia as blues.
36.   Approve a single color cord for scholastic honor cadets. Wing would approve wear.
37.   Approve a ribbon for honor cadets. Add clasps for additional years or semesters.
38.   Change SMWOG to Officer Candidate, and utilize a blank CAP slide as grade insignia.
39.   Reduce the number of senior achievement ribbons.
40.   Eliminate the requirement for senior members of having badges/ribbons fall below notch of service coat, and below the tip of collar of shirts/blouses.
41.   Utilize black grade slides, ROTC style. CAP letters embroidered same as current slides.
42.   Utilize standardized nametags for all ranks. Potentially, use an Air Force nametag.
43.   Authorize a dark blue/black Gore-Tex parka with BDU's.
44.   Approve black fleece (Army issue) jacket for wear with BDU's.
45.   Approve heather gray beret as an optional item with blue BDU and Aviator Uniform.
46.   Authorize high visibility outer-garments (yellow?) for wear with utility uniforms.
47.   Require blue patrol cap to be worn with Blue BDU's in the field.
48.   Authorize special activities patches to be worn one-half inch below the American flag.
49.   Authorize wear of the golf shirt with jeans.
50.   Utilize an orange hard hat for ES missions instead of the white helmet liner.
51.   Redesign awards and decorations similar to those of the USAF such as Achievement and Commendation Medals.
52.   Allow any earned military badge to be worn on the Air Force type uniforms.
53.   Transition to the Airman Battle Uniform.
54.   Redesign cadet officer rank insignia to one gold dot for 2ndLt, one silver for 1st, two silver for Capt, one gold diamond for Maj, one silver for LtCol, and two silver for Col.
55.   Authorize a blue beret as optional Cadet headgear, utilizing a CAP shield.
56.   NBB participants wear NBB patch on BDU's; St. Albans Cross badge on right pocket of blues.
57.   Authorize a "USAF AUXILIARY" tape on BDU's to replace "CIVIL AIR PATROL" tape.
58.   Eliminate vivid colors on Civil Air Patrol patches; utilize subdued colors mirroring the Air Force.
59.   Wear flag on left shoulder of BDU's; allow activity/qualification patches on right shoulder.
60.   On corporate service dress nametag, move "CIVIL AIR PATROL" lettering to below name. Use on all service uniforms.
61.   Replace epaulettes on service coat with epaulettes of gray cloth. Pin on metal rank insignia.

A few interesting suggestions were made, and a few explanations changed my own view points on a couple of things. A few suggestions made were selfserving, but were included anyway.  All in all, this was an enlightening excercise.

[pixelwonk]

wow.
Like a gawker at a crash scene, I just can't help but stare at the carnage.

[TankerT]

 

[DNall]

Obviousyl some of that contradicts & some go together. Three items at least off that list are already being authorized at or above the listed standard. A couple others I know are already under consideration. A couple are absolutely no goes via the AF for cause & that isn't changing. Oveall you can see a break down of where people stand on the AF relationship. It's interesting.

[lordmonar]

1.   Replace ultramarine blue cloth with navy blue for all accoutrement's on BDU's. (6)--why?
3.   Produce a grade insignia for C/AB. Utilize a shield without chevrons (3)--Why
They should not be C/AB all that long.  USAF does not have a mark for AB's, so again why?  The duel CAP's work fine.

4.   Produce and authorize distinctive CAP Senior Member NCO grade insignia. (3)--Why...we don't have distinctive CAP SM Officer grade insignia.

5.   Standardize to a single recruiter ribbon. (3)--Good I support this one!

6.   Authorize cloth name/aviation badge patch on flight suit. (3)--Again Good!

7.   Authorize a cloth version of the Commanders badge for BDU's. (3)--I just made that suggestion up my chain of command.  Hopefully it will get presented at the next NB.

8.   Authorize light gray BDU or six pocket pants for wear with the blue golf shirt. (2)--Okay.

9.   Authorize khaki, or light gray BDU uniform for summer. (2)--No got enough uniforms as it is.

10.   Eliminate American flag on BDU's. (2)--6 of one half dozen of the other.

11.   Require Cadet Airman rank on both collars for all uniform variations. (2)--Good
12.   Eliminate Group Commander badge; mirror USAF wear standards (2)--Good

13.   Authorize sewn on color grade for green flight suit. (2)--Do you mean color on blue or color on OD green (like the US Navy wears)?

14.   Approve brown leather A-2, with distinctive CAP name tag, for wear with Blues. (2)--Won't happen but we can hope!  And add the Flight suit to the list.

15.   Require wear of only tapes, grade, cloth badges and wings on the BDU uniforms. (2)--I would expand that to squadron patches too and maybe special team patches (A Ground Team Patch, Aerial SAR Team patch, Color Guard Team Patch).  But not NCSA or anything of that nature.

16.   Produce and authorize a cloth Model Rocketry badge, mirroring the existing metal badge in design. Require wear on left pocket. (2)--why?  We want to eliminate the patch all together.

17.   Eliminate golf shirt as a mission uniform. Casual wear in garrison. (2)--No...if it is a uniform it is a uniform.  Either eliminate all together or not at all.

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

19.   Approve blue pants/white shirt as alternate uniform; eliminate white/grays. (2)--Good

20.   Eliminate CAP cutouts from light blue shirts for SM and SM NCOs. (2)--Good

21.   Implement a phase out date on the older service coat. (2)--Good

22.   Eliminate corporate uniforms. (2)--Can't with out USAF lifting weight/grooming standards and/or CAP establishing them.

23.   Approve no-shine brown (tan?) boots with utility uniforms. (2)--NO!  Looks like ass with BDUs!

24.   Authorize a standard physical fitness uniform.--Good

25.   Produce aircrew wings for scanners and aircrew other than pilot/observer.--6 of one half dozen of the other.

26.   Eliminate Blue BDU's.--Can't...see 22 above

27.   Consolidate uniforms to one Air Force version, and one corporate version.--Good

29.   Authorize cadet officers to wear cloth rank insignia on flight uniforms.--They could but they would have to change it so often.  No...I'll say pass on this one.

30.   Return to cadet enlisted wearing rank on one collar, "CAP" insignia on other.--Only if we follow through and make the cadet officers do the same.  No.

31.   Require "CAP" under/over rank insignia on headgear.--No

32.   Standardize epaulets for cadets and seniors to a single color (gray?).--Yes

33.   Eliminate jumpsuit.--already done.

34.   Permit wear of any badge on flight suit leather name tag; allow multiple badges.--Good

35.   Remove metal insignia from new corporate service coat. Use same insignia as blues.--Yes

36.   Approve a single color cord for scholastic honor cadets. Wing would approve wear.--No, approve wear of cord at national level.

37.   Approve a ribbon for honor cadets. Add clasps for additional years or semesters.--If you go to ribbon then nix the chord.

38.   Change SMWOG to Officer Candidate, and utilize a blank CAP slide as grade insignia.--Good.

39.   Reduce the number of senior achievement ribbons.--We only have 5 as it is.  Which one would you eliminate?

40.   Eliminate the requirement for senior members of having badges/ribbons fall below notch of service coat, and below the tip of collar of shirts/blouses.--Good

41.   Utilize black grade slides, ROTC style. CAP letters embroidered same as current slides.--Bd...use blue like USAF slides.

42.   Utilize standardized name tags for all ranks. Potentially, use an Air Force name tag.--Good.  Blue 3 line for the the blues and silver three line with the service coat.

43.   Authorize a dark blue/black Gore-Tex parka with BDU's.--no BDU camo Gortex.

44.   Approve black fleece (Army issue) jacket for wear with BDU's.--already allowed.

45.   Approve heather gray beret as an optional item with blue BDU and Aviator Uniform.--No.

46.   Authorize high visibility outer-garments (yellow?) for wear with utility uniforms.--already allowed.

47.   Require blue patrol cap to be worn with Blue BDU's in the field.--No anymore that we should require the BDU patrol cap to be worn in the field.

48.   Authorize special activities patches to be worn one-half inch below the American flag.--No eliminate them all together.

49.   Authorize wear of the golf shirt with jeans.--No.

50.   Utilize an orange hard hat for ES missions instead of the white helmet liner.--No.  Just eliminate the White helmet liner altogether.  ES mission should be able to wear any safety gear they need to with reference to the regulations.

51.   Redesign awards and decorations similar to those of the USAF such as Achievement and Commendation Medals.--Needs more work but I kind of like this idea.

52.   Allow any earned military badge to be worn on the Air Force type uniforms.--No sorry.  Just would not look right with army marksman and marine expert rifle man danglies.   I think maybe we need to expand what can and cannot be worn but no necessarily ALL military badges.

53.   Transition to the Airman Battle Uniform.--maybe

54.   Redesign cadet officer rank insignia to one gold dot for 2ndLt, one silver for 1st, two silver for Capt, one gold diamond for Maj, one silver for LtCol, and two silver for Col.--okay

55.   Authorize a blue beret as optional Cadet headgear, utilizing a CAP shield.--either make it mandatory or not at all.

56.   NBB participants wear NBB patch on BDU's; St. Albans Cross badge on right pocket of blues.--No...eliminate all NCSA patches.

57.   Authorize a "USAF AUXILIARY" tape on BDU's to replace "CIVIL AIR PATROL" tape.--No...our name is not USAF Auxiliary it is Civil Air Patrol.  You would not expect the USAF to wear "Americans Aerospace Power" in stead of "U.S. Air force on their uniforms would you?

58.   Eliminate vivid colors on Civil Air Patrol patches; utilize subdued colors mirroring the Air Force.--No...the color help separate us from the USAF and that is the only thing that allows us the wear their uniforms.  Plus there is no need for subdued colors other than a need to play army!

59.   Wear flag on left shoulder of BDU's; allow activity/qualification patches on right shoulder.--No...eliminate activity patches.

60.   On corporate service dress name tag, move "CIVIL AIR PATROL" lettering to below name. Use on all service uniforms.--okay

61.   Replace epaulets on service coat with epaulets of gray cloth. Pin on metal rank insignia.--Do you know how much that would cost?!  When they had to retro fit the officer coat back in the 90's it was like $25-$50!  The coat costs enough as it is without adding extra costs to it.

[Hawk200]

44.   Approve black fleece (Army issue) jacket for wear with BDU's.--already allowed.

I would like to see a reference on this one. I haven't heard of it yet.

52.   Allow any earned military badge to be worn on the Air Force type uniforms.--No sorry.  Just would not look right with army marksman and marine expert rifle man danglies.   I think maybe we need to expand what can and cannot be worn but no necessarily ALL military badges.

52 was my suggestion, and I think I need to clarify. I do not mean marksmanship badges. I mean specific qualification badges that most branches wear above the pocket/ribbons. The CMP badges have a pretty consistent policy across the branches, and they're already authorized, so I'm not really addressing those..

To me, if a guy earns an Air Warfare badge from the Navy, I don't see any problem with him wearing it. Just an opinion, yours may vary.

The only stipulation I would have is that it be on a DD214 (or equivalent for the Guard), or  on paperwork that shows it was "awarded in writing by competent military authority".

[carnold1836]

Just out of curiosity what do you have against people displaying their participation in one of the NCSAs? They are hard earned and I know that my cadets that have gone are very proud of their achievements. How else do you propose they display their achievements?

[DNall]

Holy crap this is going to be long, but too the point.

1.   Replace ultramarine blue cloth with navy blue for all accoutrement's on BDU's. --why?

Most think ultramarine blue looks hideous. Dark blue maintains the distinction while reducing the tendency to vomit. Honestly, I'd prefer white on OD background, and that may even be theoretically possible given we'll still be in BDUs when the AF goes to ABUs. Ultramarine is merely a holdover from OD fatigues that came prior to BDUs, when OD tapes were shot down on BDUs no other alternative was ever proposed. Do we need subdued patches & tapes so as to hide in the woods, certainly not, but neither do ROTC/JROTC cadets who do wear subdued tapes regardless of not being on a military contract. Anything that improves professional appearance while following the AF example makes us more marketable & improves retention.

3.   Produce a grade insignia for C/AB. Utilize a shield without chevrons --Why? They should not be C/AB all that long.  USAF does not have a mark for AB's, so again why?  The duel CAP's work fine.

I agree there should be no device for C/AB. If we go back to "CAP" one collar for C/enlisted then use "CAP" on both sides for AB, just for logistics reasons & for them to learn where/how to pin grade on when they get it. Otherwise, nothing is fine, just like the AF.

4.   Produce and authorize distinctive CAP Senior Member NCO grade insignia. --Why...we don't have distinctive CAP SM Officer grade insignia.

Agree, no reason to produce distinctive adult enlisted stripes. The people wearing the AF stripes have earned them in the military & that's the stripes the AF wants them wearing. If we reshape CAP & add an adult enlisted corps the way it used to be from the beginning to the 70s, THEN I'd support making distinctive stripes.

8.   Authorize light gray BDU or six pocket pants for wear with the blue golf shirt. (2)--Okay.

This & the same gray BDU pants w/ the aviator shirt were & are the alternate proposal rather than BBDUs. Now that we're going to the alternate corporate blues & grays are hopefully going away at some point, those blue BDU pants are also acceptable for use w/ the golf shirt or white aviator shirt for field work.

9.   Authorize khaki, or light gray BDU uniform for summer. (2)--No got enough uniforms as it is.

Agree, hate this idea. Anyone on the gulf coast, like me, will respect hot weather issues, but this is stupid. The thickness & weave of the material (summer weight) makes the difference, much more than the color. We're part of the AF family, we need to act like it, not keep running off to do our own thing.

13.   Authorize sewn on color grade for green flight suit. (2)--Do you mean color on blue or color on OD green (like the US Navy wears)?

Same color grade on blue we wear on everything else. Full color grade on OD (like the navy now & us in the old days) would be better, but that won't happen.

14.   Approve brown leather A-2, with distinctive CAP name tag, for wear with Blues. (2)--Won't happen but we can hope!  And add the Flight suit to the list.

Right, but maybe if you used a distinctive color cloth name patch? Maybe with no grade on it? It's low priority, add hard to modify to make distinctive, & expensive... that's why it hasn't & most likely won't happen.

15.   Require wear of only tapes, grade, cloth badges and wings on the BDU uniforms. (2)--I would expand that to squadron patches too and maybe special team patches (A Ground Team Patch, Aerial SAR Team patch, Color Guard Team Patch).  But not NCSA or anything of that nature.

The issue is that in full color they begin to look like a hundred merit badges & highly unprofessional. Get them down to bare bones first, then we can talk about color subdued patches (AF style) for mission related quals, however, I tend to think those are best covered by specialty badges. Just watch the slippery slope to the girl scout uniform.

16.   Produce and authorize a cloth Model Rocketry badge, mirroring the existing metal badge in design. Require wear on left pocket. (2)--why?  We want to eliminate the patch all together.

This got pulled out of another item that I guess we forget to put on this list. Drop ALL patches. Use embroidered versions of ALL metal badges in the same positions on all uniforms.

17.   Eliminate golf shirt as a mission uniform. Casual wear in garrison. (2)--No...if it is a uniform it is a uniform.  Either eliminate all together or not at all.

It wasn't created to be a uniform & certainly is not one in anything but the technical sense. It should be removed all together, but at very least should not be seen in public when people are counting on us to go find their family & read our competence in the image we project. #49) golf shirt w/ jeans... are you psychotic?

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

Actually there's several active CAP members alive now because they wore nomex, and others not because they didn't. We do some pretty dangerous general aviation flying. Lots of flight suits are avail from surplus, even some of the blue ones. You can also find both versions in most any size from ebay or online suppliers in nomex for $60 give or take. If you're going to fly you should do it safely, not cheaply. O-flights & non-members would be exceptions to this policy. A lot of wings do this already, it would just be taking it nationwide.

22.   Eliminate corporate uniforms. (2)--Can't with out USAF lifting weight/grooming standards and/or CAP establishing them.

That is AF doing away with the already slackened standard applied to CAP, or CAP doing away with members that don't meet it. The AF isn't changing, and CAP couldn't do that all at once without being in some trouble. Over time maybe, and watch out for that new NIMS credentialing system with PT requirements. I wouldn't count on it though.

23.   Approve no-shine brown (tan?) boots with utility uniforms. (2)--NO!  Looks like ass with BDUs!

Those were designed to be field boots for people in active combat situations that don't have time to do the extra maint to take care of their feet properly. They look bad w/ BDU/ACU/ABU. We'll go to whatever the ABU standard is when the time comes, until then, shine your boots & think about the people in combat that have so much more to do rather than whine about the little extra work you have to do as part of your service.

24.   Authorize a standard physical fitness uniform.--Good

It doesn't even have to be standardized items, just a description of an acceptable range of items & statement that while wearing such items during CAP activities that this is considered a uniform.

25.   Produce aircrew wings for scanners and aircrew other than pilot/observer.--6 of one half dozen of the other.

Actually, part of the badge proposal we worked on in the portal covered this, for professional image & retention reasons more than adding stupid bling. That thought process involved taking all the complex new technical systems we have (highbird, P25 support, RadMon, FLIR, ARCHER, SDIS... and the list will get longer & more complex over time) and & juxtaposing that with our basic observer rating. What emerged was that much of what is now required for observer would drop down under the scanner/aircrew rating, and the technical sign offs & mission commander capability would rise to the new navigator/observer rating. Here's the sample (that's color enamel centers AF-style outers):

26.   Eliminate Blue BDU's.--Can't...see 22 above

Can, see #8 above as alternative.

29.   Authorize cadet officers to wear cloth rank insignia on flight uniforms.--They could but they would have to change it so often.  No...I'll say pass on this one.

They don't tend to promote quickly in the C/ officer grades. The issue is they can't put grade on the name patch, just "CADET." This would be an OPTIONAL way for them to designate grade on that uniform if they choose.

30.   Return to cadet enlisted wearing rank on one collar, "CAP" insignia on other.--Only if we follow through and make the cadet officers do the same.  No.

What the hell do C/officers have to do with it? Obviously they wear their grade on blues in very different ways, and for a specific symbolic reason. The issue is that it is VERY expensive for Sqs to maintain enough stock of the various stripes to keep everyone in uniform. So expensive it tends not to happen, which leaves people getting promoted w/ no insignia or just not wearing any, and that greatly effects retention. This is a financial & logistics issue. Have HQ send me $500 worth of insignia each year & I'll do it your way, otherwise the old way was better & there's a lot of talk about it going back on the enlisted side.

31.   Require "CAP" under/over rank insignia on headgear.--No

Agree, no. This was posed months ago as a way to get AF to approve grade on BDU headgear. They've approved it now w/o this so the idea is gone, it did work for Goretex though.  

32.   Standardize epaulets for cadets and seniors to a single color (gray?).--Yes

No. Cadets will stay in blue slides cause they don't have the same officer insignia as the AF. Adults will for now stay in gray so we aren't confused w/ military officers. There may be some point in the future when our requirements/standards/training/professionalism nearly matches that of the AF & they decide to grant us something like blue or black w/ "CAP" & standard grade insignia when they think we deserve it, right now we don't & we aren't remotely aiming to try.

33.   Eliminate jumpsuit.--already done.

Is it? The dark blue utility uniform shown in 39-1 under the blue flight suit? It looks like it's still authorized to me & it's a bad thing.

34.   Permit wear of any badge on flight suit leather name tag; allow multiple badges.--Good

I don't know about any. Could we limit that to mission related. I don't need to see your cadet programs or AE badge under your observer wings.

36/37: Academic excellence ribbon/cord: pick one. Standard in ROTC is a ribbon. We could just use the same ribbon/devices already authorized on AF uniform & adapt the standards & SOP for getting grades & such.

39.   Reduce the number of senior achievement ribbons.--We only have 5 as it is.  Which one would you eliminate?

All. Are we talking about the PME ribbons for Lvl 1-5, if so those should go. They are indicated by the grade you're wearing. The stars on the leadership ribbon are covered by badges for everything now. Get rid of the Membership & Leadership ribbon. Consolidate the next three into one PME ribbon w/ devices for level 2-5.

40.   Eliminate the requirement for senior members of having badges/ribbons fall below notch of service coat, and below the tip of collar of shirts/blouses.--Good

What, why? It's the AF's uniform, wear it how they say or not at all.

41.   Utilize black grade slides, ROTC style. CAP letters embroidered same as current slides.--Bd...use blue like USAF slides.

AF blue slides w/ CAP & grade would be preferable, but that will NEVER EVER EVER again be authorized, EVER. No matter what. If CAP spots ossma bin laden trying to sneak a nuclear bomb across the border & saves the freaking world, AND also requires college degrees, PT, & a serious OTS for every officer... still NEVER EVER will blue slides be authorized to CAP, ever. That might as well be chiseled in stone by God almighty. Black is a compromise with precedent in that it's used by AFROTC/OTS/Academy.

42.   Utilize standardized name tags for all ranks. Potentially, use an Air Force name tag.--Good.  Blue 3 line for the the blues and silver three line with the service coat.

The one line Blue AF name tag is used in AFROTC/JROTC where most are not in the real AF. It would be much less expensive to use the blue one line name tag on adult & cadet versions of blues, white aviator, etc. Same one line silver AF name tag on service coat. We don't need 6 variations. We need smart & simple, which is almost always the AF way since they're already doing volume business.

43.   Authorize a dark blue/black Gore-Tex parka with BDU's.--no BDU camo Gortex.

Right Woodland Camo is now authorized w/ BDU using the new grade slide. Authorize same grade slide on Coast Guard dark blue goretex as OPTIONAL outterwear w/ coporate-style combinations.

44.   Approve black fleece (Army issue) jacket for wear with BDU's.--already allowed.

no it's not, you're thinking with BBDUs where you have some latitude. Only the M65 & now the goretex is authorized w/ BDU. We're in the AF family, not the Army.

45.   Approve heather gray beret as an optional item with blue BDU and Aviator Uniform.--No.

What's the weather like over there? Absolutely NO. I don't like us using berets. Use a ribbon if you have to, a cord if you absolutely must, a patch here & there if you must, and almost never a beret. Just because it's a corporate STYLE uniform doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. It should still be pressed & worn exactly as well as the AF-style uniform or not at all, and it should be configured with respect & deference to the AF way of doing things.

47.   Require blue patrol cap to be worn with Blue BDU's in the field.--No anymore that we should require the BDU patrol cap to be worn in the field.

You're thinking of the boonie hat. The patrol hat is required w/ BDUs, an should be w/ BBDUs.

48.   Authorize special activities patches to be worn one-half inch below the American flag.--No eliminate them all together.

I'm for getting rid of the flag actually & minimizing the color explosion. Go to one tab for each NCSA, you can wear your choice of two on one shoulder (whichever one is most appropriate). I'd go for making those arched & allow wings to make flat tabs for Wg special activities & let you wear one of those also.... this gets out of hand fast though.

50.   Utilize an orange hard hat for ES missions instead of the white helmet liner.--No.  Just eliminate the White helmet liner altogether.  ES mission should be able to wear any safety gear they need to with reference to the regulations.

The hardhats are stupid & pretty worthless really. CARRY a bright colored climbing helmet & wear a patrol cap unless rocks are in position to fall on you or you are in position to fall down a hill.

51.   Redesign awards and decorations similar to those of the USAF such as Achievement and Commendation Medals.--Needs more work but I kind of like this idea.

Dump current service awards that recognize training & not service - SaR, Disaster, CN, any thought of creating HLS or border patrol. You should get an achievement award for 50-100 hours/25 sorties in an operational area (SaR/disaster/HLS/etc), the rest needs to go on your 101. Dump the current political matrix of recognition awards that seem to require senior staff positions at the region or higher level. Reset a new merit based system that really recognizes major individual contributions. Also talk to the AF about publishing an AFI drawing AF personnel's attention to those military decorations awardable to CAP members on AFAMs, and the procedures for recommendations - streamline that process as much as possible. Fill holes left outside that with appropriate CAP decorations. Restrict certain additional awards to cadets only - IACE, NCC, Encampment. Work on a firearms program at encampments that meets the standards for award of the AF firearms expert ribbon.

52.   Allow any earned military badge to be worn on the Air Force type uniforms.--No sorry.  Just would not look right with army marksman and marine expert rifle man danglies.   I think maybe we need to expand what can and cannot be worn but no necessarily ALL military badges.

CIB & most any Navy badge look pretty silly too, but they earned them just as legit as the AF logistics guy earned his. I'd tend to agree though that we need to expand the list, but maybe restrict it to one mil badge.

53.   Transition to the Airman Battle Uniform.--maybe

It's a foregone conclusion, just the timing is in question. Let the AF get over to it, then let the supply of surplus BDUs dry up completely & the supply of surplus ABUs come on line. THEN we'll transition. So probably sometime between 2009 & 2011. I think I mentioned earlier that we have an opportunity while in BDUs & with them in ABUs to clean the thing up some & let it transition over when we change to the new stuff later.

54.   Redesign cadet officer rank insignia to one gold dot for 2ndLt, one silver for 1st, two silver for Capt, one gold diamond for Maj, one silver for LtCol, and two silver for Col.--okay

I understand where that logic came from, but these are NOT CAP specific insignia. They are used much more widely than CAP & recognized by many folks familiar with the military. If you want to change them, then use the AFROTC system.

55.   Authorize a blue beret as optional Cadet headgear, utilizing a CAP shield.--either make it mandatory or not at all.

Again, no berets. Blue beret is already cleared for NBB grads. De-authorize the stupid orange hats used for hawk mountain. They can use a beret also if it'll shut them up, red or whatever, but I'd prefer they be in blue also w/ a dif flash, same deal with some of the other Wg ES schools that shuld be consolidated accoridng to the NEAT plan I saw on another thread here a couple days ago... That is a system of Nationally recognized ES academies (like Hawk Mtn), run over 5-days (overlapped w/ encampments, 3 for national curriculum, 2 for state specific or additional items - ex. swiftwater, helo ops, etc), at the Wing or region level.

57.   Authorize a "USAF AUXILIARY" tape on BDU's to replace "CIVIL AIR PATROL" tape.--No...our name is not USAF Auxiliary it is Civil Air Patrol.  You would not expect the USAF to wear "Americans Aerospace Power" in stead of "U.S. Air force on their uniforms would you?

As much as I'd like it to, this won't happen. However, the item did include a request to congress to authorize CAP to also do business as USAF Auxiliary & all abreviations thereof (minus USAFA, which belongs to the academy). That may actually happen at some point in teh future, but there's some other business to be handled first.

58.   Eliminate vivid colors on Civil Air Patrol patches; utilize subdued colors mirroring the Air Force.--No...the color help separate us from the USAF and that is the only thing that allows us the wear their uniforms.  Plus there is no need for subdued colors other than a need to play army!

Seperate is right. The form of CAP uniforms is exactly the measure of the closeness of the CAP & AF relationship (not the working relationship between CAP & CAP-USAF that's quoted to us). The color explosion looks idiotic & people in the military think so too. There's no need to "play army" but there is a great need to appear professional & exude competence, real or not, and that includes to the public as well as to the military. We already fight teh boy scouts w/ airplanes image, or the flying club that volunteers to fly around on the govt's dime looking for people... we have to work real hard to be seen as a professional agency with extensive training & experience being out there on the job w/o need of adult supervision by some crew of retirees serving on a CERT team. The AF will be fine with it if it presents a professional image on their uniform & doesn't make AF personnel think they should salute or follow your orders. They just have to stick to the geneva convention.

61.   Replace epaulets on service coat with epaulets of gray cloth. Pin on metal rank insignia.--Do you know how much that would cost?!  When they had to retro fit the officer coat back in the 90's it was like $25-$50!  The coat costs enough as it is without adding extra costs to it.

It'd be more than 25-50 for this major overhaul I think, and I'm very scared of the quality tailoring we'd see come back. It's one thing if you asked a seamstress at a military base to do it, quite another when the korean lady at the local cleaners a few hundred miles away gets the job, or God forbid someone tries to do it themselves. We can either change the color of the slides to something like black that'll blend in a bit more, keep them the same, or maybe go to some kind of shoulderboard like ROTC uses on outerwear.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Item 61:  The sew-on epaulet with metal rank would not be as expensive as you think, since you would save like $75 by buying an enlisted jacket to convert.  The quality is still a major issue, and would probably end up very uneven to put it kindly.

54:  The cadet officer insignia mirrors the ROTC insignia for both the AF and the Army.

53:  The Airman Battle Uniform will happen, but not for about 8-10 years.

51 and 39:  Our ribbons are in need of a major overhaul.  We have way too many.

[Hawk200]

OK, folks, I think I need to clear up a couple misunderstandings.

One: All I did was compile a list. Period. These are not all my suggestions, they are a simple compilation. The entries with numbers next to them indicates how many people agreed with that particular idea.

Two: Although I did compile a list, I do not understand the reasoning behind every suggestion. You will have to ask the person that put forward the suggestion in the first place. That will probably require digging into the old thread.

This was a personal interest item to me, but I thought I would share it with everyone here. I think it does point to some peoples ideas as to how they feel we stand with the Air Force.

I must say though, that some of the continued discussion has been enlightening, and I have changed some of my personal viewpoints based on how some folks presented their concepts.

[aveighter]

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

Good point!  Until your the one on fire.

[PA Guy]

Just out of curiosity what do you have against people displaying their participation in one of the NCSAs? They are hard earned and I know that my cadets that have gone are very proud of their achievements. How else do you propose they display their achievements?

Actually the majority of NCSAs don't require a cadet to meet a performance standard.  If they show up, don't get in trouble and get sent home they "graduate".  I'm not sure what the "achievement" is in doing that.

[DNall]

bragging rights I guess. Most of them are "familiarization" or "orientation" courses meant to get kids fired up about potential career oportunities.

[smj58501]

Looks like this is going to keep on going like the Energizer bunny, so I'll throw this one out there...

Reference the golf shirt summer uniform. I hope we keep it, even if it is restricted to garrison or mission base activities. It is definitely NOT a ground team uniform, and arguments can be made in both directions regarding its appropriateness for aircrew wear. Be that as it may, this is not the purpose of my post.

It is without question the easiest, cheapest uniform to procure and maintain, and it is pretty straightforward (with one exception/ suggested change I will detail below)... you put it on, tuck in the shirt, put on a black belt and shoes and abracadabra you are in uniform. Its a great starter uniform for new, inexperienced officers to use while they get the hang of the rest of them and CAP in general. Sometimes we may take for granted what a big change uniforms are for new members (especially those who have never been exposed to military/ paramilitary organizations). In short, it allows new seniors to meet the spirit, intent, and letter of 39-1, they feel part of the team right away because they are not as self conscious about if their uniform is correct, and requires minimal investment and maintenance up front as they get used to CAP and determine if it is the right organization to dedicate to long term. It is also a great meeting uniform for any senior.... especially if you have no time to run home and change after work. Everything you need is easy to bring with to work and slip into before the commute to the meeting.

The one change I would suggest.... 39-1 states "medium grey" for the slacks. This color description in my opinion creates too much "grey" area (pardon the pun). There definitely have been a few "thats not medium grey" "ok, what is medium grey?" "I don't know but thats not it" "what makes you so sure" arguments in our state. The solution in my opinion is simple... make the slacks black. They look fine with the golf shirt and match the existing belt, shoe, and sock requirement. Most importantly, black pants are generally black pants. Arguments can be made on shades/ degrees of black, but there is definitely less wiggle room than there is with medium grey.

[lordmonar]

Just out of curiosity what do you have against people displaying their participation in one of the NCSAs? They are hard earned and I know that my cadets that have gone are very proud of their achievements. How else do you propose they display their achievements?

Nothing really against this except that the BDU's are too busy as they are.  I would like to see Wing, Squadron, name tape, CAP tape and duty badges.  Then maybe we can develop "team" badges for membership on specific teams.

I know that NBB and PJOC and a Flight Academy are all great and the participants worked hard...but at a mission base....I don't really care.  Nor does it tell anyone of your abilities and or what you are doing there at the mission base.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[lordmonar]

Most think ultramarine blue looks hideous. Dark blue maintains the distinction while reducing the tendency to vomit. Honestly, I'd prefer white on OD background, and that may even be theoretically possible given we'll still be in BDUs when the AF goes to ABUs. Ultramarine is merely a holdover from OD fatigues that came prior to BDUs, when OD tapes were shot down on BDUs no other alternative was ever proposed. Do we need subdued patches & tapes so as to hide in the woods, certainly not, but neither do ROTC/JROTC cadets who do wear subdued tapes regardless of not being on a military contract. Anything that improves professional appearance while following the AF example makes us more marketable & improves retention.

Ultra marine dark blue they both look the same to me.  If we can't go subdued....why change?  BTW...the USAF used to wear the ultra marine and white back in the 70's-80's.  That is where CAP got the idea.

This & the same gray BDU pants w/ the aviator shirt were & are the alternate proposal rather than BBDUs. Now that we're going to the alternate corporate blues & grays are hopefully going away at some point, those blue BDU pants are also acceptable for use w/ the golf shirt or white aviator shirt for field work.

Okay....as a replacement for BBDU's maybe.  So if our field uniform will be gray...should we change the blue flight suit to gray as well?

The issue is that in full color they begin to look like a hundred merit badges & highly unprofessional. Get them down to bare bones first, then we can talk about color subdued patches (AF style) for mission related quals, however, I tend to think those are best covered by specialty badges. Just watch the slippery slope to the girl scout uniform.

That is why we should stick to the basics...using the USAF as a model.  Name, CAP, Wing and Squadron, specialty badge and sometimes a special team badge and nothing else. 

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

Actually there's several active CAP members alive now because they wore nomex, and others not because they didn't. We do some pretty dangerous general aviation flying. Lots of flight suits are avail from surplus, even some of the blue ones. You can also find both versions in most any size from ebay or online suppliers in nomex for $60 give or take. If you're going to fly you should do it safely, not cheaply. O-flights & non-members would be exceptions to this policy. A lot of wings do this already, it would just be taking it nationwide.

I don't know...I've got to call you on this one...do we really have that many crashes that involve fires?  And how many of those crashes that invovle fires were so large that it does not matter what you were wearing?  If it is so dangerous why are we letting non members and cadets flying around with out protecitive clothing?  No....Nomex is a good idea...but a requirment?  No the cost/benifit ratio just does not equate.

24.   Authorize a standard physical fitness uniform.--Good

It doesn't even have to be standardized items, just a description of an acceptable range of items & statement that while wearing such items during CAP activities that this is considered a uniform.

Like I said.  Gray sweats, tops and bottom.  Cheap, easily available, slight variations don't show that much.

29.   Authorize cadet officers to wear cloth rank insignia on flight uniforms.--They could but they would have to change it so often.  No...I'll say pass on this one.

They don't tend to promote quickly in the C/ officer grades. The issue is they can't put grade on the name patch, just "CADET." This would be an OPTIONAL way for them to designate grade on that uniform if they choose.

I woud go for that. 

33.   Eliminate jumpsuit.--already done.

Is it? The dark blue utility uniform shown in 39-1 under the blue flight suit? It looks like it's still authorized to me & it's a bad thing.

I thought we were talking about the old smurf suit.  As for the blue utility uniform...is is not identical to the blue flight suit just not Nomex?  If we kill one we should kill them both.

39.   Reduce the number of senior achievement ribbons.--We only have 5 as it is.  Which one would you eliminate?

All. Are we talking about the PME ribbons for Lvl 1-5, if so those should go. They are indicated by the grade you're wearing. The stars on the leadership ribbon are covered by badges for everything now. Get rid of the Membership & Leadership ribbon. Consolidate the next three into one PME ribbon w/ devices for level 2-5.

I would go for that.  We can do the same for the cadets as well.  Eliminate all acheivement and milestone awards and have a Cadet Programs Award with lots of pips and a Professional Develpment Award with only 4 pips.

40.   Eliminate the requirement for senior members of having badges/ribbons fall below notch of service coat, and below the tip of collar of shirts/blouses.--Good

What, why? It's the AF's uniform, wear it how they say or not at all.

Actually the USAF does not have this restriction any more.  If you got put the wings up on the shoulder seam...that where they have to go.

41.   Utilize black grade slides, ROTC style. CAP letters embroidered same as current slides.--Bd...use blue like USAF slides.

AF blue slides w/ CAP & grade would be preferable, but that will NEVER EVER EVER again be authorized, EVER. No matter what. If CAP spots ossma bin laden trying to sneak a nuclear bomb across the border & saves the freaking world, AND also requires college degrees, PT, & a serious OTS for every officer... still NEVER EVER will blue slides be authorized to CAP, ever. That might as well be chiseled in stone by God almighty. Black is a compromise with precedent in that it's used by AFROTC/OTS/Academy.

Well actually you mean CAP will never be authorised blue with CAP again.  We wore them back in the 80's before the "CAP Maj and the USAF armory" incedent.

42.   Utilize standardized name tags for all ranks. Potentially, use an Air Force name tag.--Good.  Blue 3 line for the the blues and silver three line with the service coat.

The one line Blue AF name tag is used in AFROTC/JROTC where most are not in the real AF. It would be much less expensive to use the blue one line name tag on adult & cadet versions of blues, white aviator, etc. Same one line silver AF name tag on service coat. We don't need 6 variations. We need smart & simple, which is almost always the AF way since they're already doing volume business.

I agree with you...except I know the USAF will not go for it because of the "mistaken identity" issue.

44.   Approve black fleece (Army issue) jacket for wear with BDU's.--already allowed.

no it's not, you're thinking with BBDUs where you have some latitude. Only the M65 & now the goretex is authorized w/ BDU. We're in the AF family, not the Army.

Let me clarify.  If its cold out side and you are wearing a black fleese under you BDU...I can't see anyone objecting.  We can wear black turdle necks, black T-shirts, and any color thermal underwear.

Brown or black. Either V-neck, U-neck, crew neck or athletic style without pockets. Black or brown turtlenecks, dickeys, or thermal
undershirts without pockets may also be worn. EXCEPTION:
members may wear white thermal undershirts even if exposed at neck.
Unit commanders may prescribe color, unit designation, and cloth or
silk screen emblem, to be worn on left side of chest not to exceed 5
inches in diameter.

so if the black fleese is worn as a thermal undershirt...it is already authorised.

47.   Require blue patrol cap to be worn with Blue BDU's in the field.--No anymore that we should require the BDU patrol cap to be worn in the field.

You're thinking of the boonie hat. The patrol hat is required w/ BDUs, an should be w/ BBDUs.

I thought they were saying the blue patrol cap instead of a squadron cap or some such.  I don't think we should be allowed the boonie cap at all.

48.   Authorize special activities patches to be worn one-half inch below the American flag.--No eliminate them all together.

I'm for getting rid of the flag actually & minimizing the color explosion. Go to one tab for each NCSA, you can wear your choice of two on one shoulder (whichever one is most appropriate). I'd go for making those arched & allow wings to make flat tabs for Wg special activities & let you wear one of those also.... this gets out of hand fast though.

I can see where you are going...but why not just eliminate the NCSA patches all together?

[lordmonar]

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

Good point!  Until your the one on fire.

I understand...Nomex is a good idea....but a requirement?   A cost benifit analysis just does not prove the case. 

[BillB]

Can someone give me any logic on #54 of such a change? The original cadet grades were all NO grades, no officer grades. Then there was a change to have Cadet 2LT, 1LT and Captain. The next change added Cadet major to the list, and the final change in the late 1950's allowed Cadet LTCol and Colonel. Except for a short period where a gold single pip was authorized for cadet Flight Officer, the system of Cadet grades has been in effect for 50 years or so. It mirrors all JROTC grades. If a CAP C/Col with two diamonds meets a AFJROTC C/LTCol with two diamonds who has the higher grade? There seems no logical reason to change.

[fyrfitrmedic]

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

Good point!  Until your the one on fire.

I understand...Nomex is a good idea....but a requirement?   A cost benifit analysis just does not prove the case. 

That may appear to be the case until one factors in the incredibly high cost of burn aftercare.

[AlphaSigOU]

54:  The cadet officer insignia mirrors the ROTC insignia for both the AF and the Army.

Not quite. The cadet officer insignia is modeled after the Army ROTC/JROTC cadet officer insignia. Modern Army ROTC/JROTC cadet officer grade is just a plain piece of metal; the CAP cadet officer grades are modeled after the Army ROTC/JROTC versions introduced in the 1950s, with the hatch pattern in the middle.

AFROTC cadet officers use shoulder boards/shoulder marks with stripes a la Navy while AFJROTC cadet officers use a hideous (in my opinion, which doesn't count for much) pin-on insignia that looks like NCO stripes.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[arajca]

Quote
50.   Utilize an orange hard hat for ES missions instead of the white helmet liner.--No.  Just eliminate the White helmet liner altogether.  ES mission should be able to wear any safety gear they need to with reference to the regulations.
The hardhats are stupid & pretty worthless really. CARRY a bright colored climbing helmet & wear a patrol cap unless rocks are in position to fall on you or you are in position to fall down a hill.

As the initial proponent of the hard hat idea, there is one important point not shown - OHSA Compliant - on the hard hat idea. Hard hats are excellent protective equipment when used correctly. There is also a cost issue. A good hard hat with ratchet adjustment headband costs ~$10 - 15. A climbing helmet costs $75+. If hard hats are worthless, why do wildland firefighters wear them? If I were doing rock climbing or similar activities, I'd wear a climbing helmet, but for disaster cleanup type work, the hard hat is more appropriate.

As for the orange color, I suggested it as a quick means of id'ing CAP personnel in the midst of a larger group of responders, but I'm not too concerned about the color, just the protection offered by the helmet. Also, the hard hat is to be worn when it is appropriate, not for all ES activities.

[JohnKachenmeister]

My old squadron used to issue white hard hats, that were donated by a constrction safety company.  We kept them as unit property, but issued them to individuals as needed for GT activities. 

The teams did not wear them all the time, just if engaged in something potentially hazardous or around wreckage.  We attacked a CAP seal to the front, and used a Dymo labelmaker to make a white tape of the wearer's last name on the back.

Nothing else was authorized, but cadets being cadets, leeping the "Smiley Faces,"  flowers, comic stickers, etc. off helmets required constant vigilance.

We would attach them to the outside of a pack so we could access them readily, but would normally wear the BDU cap.  This also let me keep an eye out for any unauthorized attachments.  (Although something about responding to a crash or disaster with a "Have a Nice Day" sticker did appeal to my warped sense of humor!)

Then, when we were on a training mission, some Uniform Nazi told me that they were unauthorized, and I was "Setting a bad example... Poor image of CAP... Clearly outlined in CAPR 39-1... Blah, Blah, Blah."  You know, the usual stuff.

I was too lazy to actually look up the regulation to see if I was, in fact, violating it.  It was easier to just tell everybody to stuff the hard hats in their packs.  I figured this is one of those situations where compliance with regulations over-rides common sense and safety.

"I'm very sorry, Mrs. Cadetsmom, about your son's concussion.  You might, however, be comforted in knowing that he was knocked senseless while in proper uniform, though."

[DNall]

Ultra marine dark blue they both look the same to me.  If we can't go subdued....why change?  BTW...the USAF used to wear the ultra marine and white back in the 70's-80's.  That is where CAP got the idea.

I think it's horrible & a lot of other people do to. I know the AF used white on ultramarine on OD fatigues prior to changing over to BDUS. At that time, CAP also used the same white on ultramarine tapes on ODs, and had blue slides & metal grade. When we changed to BDUS, some lawyers on the AF side siad we shouldn't have subdued tapes cause it would be hard to read & people would think we were in the real AF. No one ever thought to ask for anything else. Dark blue matching BBDUs would look much better. OD tapes w/ white lettering would be even better.

Okay....as a replacement for BBDU's maybe.  So if our field uniform will be gray...should we change the blue flight suit to gray as well?

You missed it. This is not the gray BDUs item This is the gray or in my version blue BDU pants w/ golf shirt/aviator for field work. I'm still very much against gray or khaki BDUs.

That is why we should stick to the basics...using the USAF as a model.  Name, CAP, Wing and Squadron, specialty badge and sometimes a special team badge and nothing else. 

The AF doesn't wear Sq, Wg, Command pathces. What they do wear is too much, and they're taking it all off slowly. In other words, no Wg or Sq patches. Fix the specialty badges to indicate more useful information (ie you can add mission skills to some non-mission related specialty fields - admin/pers = MSA to Admin section chief; suddenly seeing that badge on a mission is more useful).

I don't know...I've got to call you on this one...do we really have that many crashes that involve fires?  And how many of those crashes that invovle fires were so large that it does not matter what you were wearing?  If it is so dangerous why are we letting non members and cadets flying around with out protecitive clothing?  No....Nomex is a good idea...but a requirment?  No the cost/benifit ratio just does not equate.

You can use that argument for seatbelts too can't you? I just don't see the cost benefit issue as being there. It's really no more expensive than other uniforms. A used flight suit & the stuff you have to put on it is cheaper than a new set of BDUs & all the crap you put on them, plus like I said they are readily avail from surplus & discount suppliers.

I know a guy that died because of an in-flight fire that disabled him & caused the plane to spin into the bay, where he was killed by fire floating unconcious in three feet of water. Good friend of mine & my immediate boss in CAP at the time. There's a story someone else told on here about a CAP crash, in California I beleive, where one person was wearing nomex including gloves & the other was not; the one that was get cuts & bruises, the other was disfigured & still getting surgeries years later. This isn't that big a deal. It'd be even eaiser if active aircrew (on 101) can wear flightsuits to meetings & such in place of BDUs when appropriate. That'd cut you down from buying another uniform.

I thought we were talking about the old smurf suit.  As for the blue utility uniform...is is not identical to the blue flight suit just not Nomex?  If we kill one we should kill them both.

We have to have the blue flt suit, as you so gracefully mentioned on corporate uniforms. There's just no reason to have any kind of jump suit. Is that for the CAP tank crews or what? I think the tendancy would be for people to get that for flying versus used nomex, and then you can ref above.

I would go for that.  We can do the same for the cadets as well.  Eliminate all acheivement and milestone awards and have a Cadet Programs Award with lots of pips and a Professional Develpment Award with only 4 pips.

Cadets get about 20 extra awards cause they're kids w/ low attention spans & small self esteem that need constant pats on the back to stay interested... at least compared to adults, theoretically anyway. One award covers four levels. You get the ribbon (COP), then bronze (Lvl 3) /silver (lvl 4) /gold star (lvl 5), just like we do on the leadership ribbon now. I don't mind giving decorations to motivate performance, but you don't need the superstack when you hadn't been around 20 years. If you make decorations easy to earn & common then they become meaningless.

Well actually you mean CAP will never be authorised blue with CAP again.  We wore them back in the 80's before the "CAP Maj and the USAF armory" incedent.

There was more to it then that. Anyway, that's correct. the AF has justified keeping us out of blue slides w/ CAP on them by saying they were too close to AF officers & the ensuing confusion would be a violation of the geneva conventions. By invoking it that way, it meant forever, and frankly look at the quality of every individual CAP member & tell me they deserve to be confused w/ AF officers at this point. Black is a solid compromise that we may be able to earn.

I agree with you...except I know the USAF will not go for it because of the "mistaken identity" issue.

I don't know, if you cite precedent like AFROTC/JROTC wearing the same nameplates despite not being in the military; then you cite how we have to pay for all this ourselves & it's highly inefficient (expensive) to do it this way, which displaces members & decreases mission capability (cause we can't spend on those items). I think if you put it up there in a well pitched way (including precendents) as part of a series of changes under the heading of "cleaning up CAP uniforms to better become part of the AF family," then I bet they'd take it, if not then so be it.

I can see where you are going...but why not just eliminate the NCSA patches all together?

I can support taking them off all together, or compromising to this tab system, just so we don't take it too far & end right back up with the girl scout uniform. What we need to put on the uniform for whatever reason should be understated, professional, and in the AF example if at all possible.

[DNall]

Quote
50.   Utilize an orange hard hat for ES missions instead of the white helmet liner.--No.  Just eliminate the White helmet liner altogether.  ES mission should be able to wear any safety gear they need to with reference to the regulations.
The hardhats are stupid & pretty worthless really. CARRY a bright colored climbing helmet & wear a patrol cap unless rocks are in position to fall on you or you are in position to fall down a hill.

As the initial proponent of the hard hat idea, there is one important point not shown - OHSA Compliant - on the hard hat idea. Hard hats are excellent protective equipment when used correctly. There is also a cost issue. A good hard hat with ratchet adjustment headband costs ~$10 - 15. A climbing helmet costs $75+. If hard hats are worthless, why do wildland firefighters wear them? If I were doing rock climbing or similar activities, I'd wear a climbing helmet, but for disaster cleanup type work, the hard hat is more appropriate.

As for the orange color, I suggested it as a quick means of id'ing CAP personnel in the midst of a larger group of responders, but I'm not too concerned about the color, just the protection offered by the helmet. Also, the hard hat is to be worn when it is appropriate, not for all ES activities.

Hard hats are useless. The OSHA requirement is to wear such a  protective device in an area where such protection is appropriate, which is never what we do. If you're doing mountain work - be that ropes or worried about falling - then you need something like a climbing helmet. If not, you need to wear your patrol cap & act like you work for the AF, cause you do. We don't do disaster cleanup. We're specifically restricted from doing what FEMA classifies as urban SaR, which involves collapsed structure search. Outside of walking your GT onto a construction site, there is no place where you need or should wear a hard hat. By the way, wildland firefighters do NOT wear hardhats. They wear similiarly shaped fire helmets that cost the same as a climbing helmet, which starts in the $35 range & goes up to 150 if you want to be stupid about it. If you don't NEED such a thing, you shouldn't buy it.

[shorning]

This is off topic, but I'm amazed at all the griping that has been done about the recent uniform changes to come out of NHQ, yet here we are with a long list of even more proposals.  Sheesh!  This whole thing screams "wannabee" to me.


YMMV...

[DNall]

Sir, either CAP is part of the AF family, or it's edging toward the girl scouts. I'm not in CAP to be involved w/ ES. I don't mind helping out a bit when I'm needed, but CAP is not a SaR agency, it's an AF support agency. I don't think the ANG feels like they're wannabes to the AD AF, and I think you'd find them pretty pissed off if you took AF off their tapes & made them wear funny looking 3rd-class kiddie uniforms. This kind of thing makes us look stupid & incompetent to the public & official agencies (ie our customers), and it harms retention, quality, & in turn mission capability.  Either we serve a REAL purpose in the AF mission, or frankly everything we do can be accomplished better faster cheaper in other ways with added benefit to the country. Either we cen get it together & reflect on the outside what we need to be seen as/what we want outsiders to think we are on the inside, or we can close up shop. There's no reason to play games on the taxpayer's dime. You can complain about how much energy goes into uniform discussions, but you keep clicking on them, and the same discussions happen in active duty military forums too. It's part of the culture to care what kind of image you project, and it's meant to be.

[pixelwonk]

This whole thing screams "wannabee" to me.


YMMV...

Maybe it's "Watanabe!"
Watching Cruise get his butt kicked by the samurai was neato.

[shorning]

This whole thing screams "wannabee" to me.


YMMV...

Maybe it's "Watanabe!"
Watching Cruise get his butt kicked by the samurai was neato.

When I hear "Watanabe", I think of Kimo Watanabe.

[aveighter]

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

Good point!  Until your the one on fire.


I understand...Nomex is a good idea....but a requirement?   A cost benifit analysis just does not prove the case. 

Requirement?  Naw!

Me and your cost-benefit analyst will send flowers.

What was your address?

[lordmonar]

Can someone give me any logic on #54 of such a change? The original cadet grades were all NO grades, no officer grades. Then there was a change to have Cadet 2LT, 1LT and Captain. The next change added Cadet major to the list, and the final change in the late 1950's allowed Cadet LTCol and Colonel. Except for a short period where a gold single pip was authorized for cadet Flight Officer, the system of Cadet grades has been in effect for 50 years or so. It mirrors all JROTC grades. If a CAP C/Col with two diamonds meets a AFJROTC C/LTCol with two diamonds who has the higher grade? There seems no logical reason to change.

Does AFJROTC use circles and dismonds?  They did not back in my day...and the last time I worked with AFJROTC cadets (last year) they still did not.  The used a chevron system sort of like the navy's.

[Major Carrales]

18.   Require Nomex flight suits for flight. (2)--Why?  Let's be honest.  How many lives have we lost or injuries could have been prevented if the air crew were wearing nomex instead of something else?  This would just make it harder to fly.  You would need to have one for all your O-flight rides.

Good point!  Until your the one on fire.

That is illogical...to mandate Nomex.  Why...one might ask?

Because one can still fly in "rip-stop" BDUs as well as in the dreaded Golf-Shirt Combo...or still, in White Greys...or (breath!!! gasp) in the White Shirt/blue shoulder marks...et al.

One would have to limit flying to flight suits for CAP flying...which will cost a pretty penny to some.  

[Major Carrales]

Uniform discussions... (fill in the blank!)

[lordmonar]

Quote
50.   Utilize an orange hard hat for ES missions instead of the white helmet liner.--No.  Just eliminate the White helmet liner altogether.  ES mission should be able to wear any safety gear they need to with reference to the regulations.
The hardhats are stupid & pretty worthless really. CARRY a bright colored climbing helmet & wear a patrol cap unless rocks are in position to fall on you or you are in position to fall down a hill.

As the initial proponent of the hard hat idea, there is one important point not shown - OHSA Compliant - on the hard hat idea. Hard hats are excellent protective equipment when used correctly. There is also a cost issue. A good hard hat with ratchet adjustment headband costs ~$10 - 15. A climbing helmet costs $75+. If hard hats are worthless, why do wildland firefighters wear them? If I were doing rock climbing or similar activities, I'd wear a climbing helmet, but for disaster cleanup type work, the hard hat is more appropriate.

As for the orange color, I suggested it as a quick means of id'ing CAP personnel in the midst of a larger group of responders, but I'm not too concerned about the color, just the protection offered by the helmet. Also, the hard hat is to be worn when it is appropriate, not for all ES activities.

I don't have a proble with the orange hard hats at all...but I have a problem with them being "uniform" items.  They should be special equipment and as such you can use them no matter what 39-1 says IMHO.  That is all I am saying.  So sure....if you need a hard hat to do your mission where it....local conditions and local dirctive will apply.  Add it to the task guides for required equpment but not to 39-1.

[Major Carrales]

Quote
50.   Utilize an orange hard hat for ES missions instead of the white helmet liner.--No.  Just eliminate the White helmet liner altogether.  ES mission should be able to wear any safety gear they need to with reference to the regulations.
The hardhats are stupid & pretty worthless really. CARRY a bright colored climbing helmet & wear a patrol cap unless rocks are in position to fall on you or you are in position to fall down a hill.

As the initial proponent of the hard hat idea, there is one important point not shown - OHSA Compliant - on the hard hat idea. Hard hats are excellent protective equipment when used correctly. There is also a cost issue. A good hard hat with ratchet adjustment headband costs ~$10 - 15. A climbing helmet costs $75+. If hard hats are worthless, why do wildland firefighters wear them? If I were doing rock climbing or similar activities, I'd wear a climbing helmet, but for disaster cleanup type work, the hard hat is more appropriate.

As for the orange color, I suggested it as a quick means of id'ing CAP personnel in the midst of a larger group of responders, but I'm not too concerned about the color, just the protection offered by the helmet. Also, the hard hat is to be worn when it is appropriate, not for all ES activities.

I don't have a proble with the orange hard hats at all...but I have a problem with them being "uniform" items.  They should be special equipment and as such you can use them no matter what 39-1 says IMHO.  That is all I am saying.  So sure....if you need a hard hat to do your mission where it....local conditions and local dirctive will apply.  Add it to the task guides for required equpment but not to 39-1.

Debating hard hats is a pretty moot point, don't you think?  Think of it less as a uniform issue and more as a equipment one.

Still...having one [hard hat] as an option based on what conditions allow would be sound thinking.  Wearing it to meetings, in reviewing columns and other "status symbol" events is meshuggah! Apocryphal!  And countless other $1.98 words.

[lordmonar]

That is why we should stick to the basics...using the USAF as a model.  Name, CAP, Wing and Squadron, specialty badge and sometimes a special team badge and nothing else. 

The AF doesn't wear Sq, Wg, Command pathces. What they do wear is too much, and they're taking it all off slowly. In other words, no Wg or Sq patches. Fix the specialty badges to indicate more useful information (ie you can add mission skills to some non-mission related specialty fields - admin/pers = MSA to Admin section chief; suddenly seeing that badge on a mission is more useful).

Excuseme....we certainly do.  We wear MAJCOM, WING and Squadron patches.  MAJCOM and Squadron at a minimun....and then some members place the honor guard, prime beef, red hores, desaster preparedness team...and a host of other patches over the right breast.  And las I checked they still have not made a decision about whether there will be patches on the ABU or not.  

I would go for that.  We can do the same for the cadets as well.  Eliminate all acheivement and milestone awards and have a Cadet Programs Award with lots of pips and a Professional Develpment Award with only 4 pips.

Cadets get about 20 extra awards cause they're kids w/ low attention spans & small self esteem that need constant pats on the back to stay interested... at least compared to adults, theoretically anyway. One award covers four levels. You get the ribbon (COP), then bronze (Lvl 3) /silver (lvl 4) /gold star (lvl 5), just like we do on the leadership ribbon now. I don't mind giving decorations to motivate performance, but you don't need the superstack when you hadn't been around 20 years. If you make decorations easy to earn & common then they become meaningless.

Never under estimate the value of a warm fuzzy to an adult too.  I like ribbons and bling.  I'll admit it!   Here is an alternitive for the cadet side of things.  A phase I ribbon that replaces curry, arnold and feik (that's 1 ribbon with 2 props) The Wright Brothers that will cover through Mitchel (that is 1 ribbon with 5 props) The Mitchell with props for each acheivement until Earhart and the the Earheart with two pips per acheivement. Kill the eaker and leave the Spaatz as is!

Well actually you mean CAP will never be authorised blue with CAP again.  We wore them back in the 80's before the "CAP Maj and the USAF armory" incedent.

There was more to it then that. Anyway, that's correct. the AF has justified keeping us out of blue slides w/ CAP on them by saying they were too close to AF officers & the ensuing confusion would be a violation of the geneva conventions. By invoking it that way, it meant forever, and frankly look at the quality of every individual CAP member & tell me they deserve to be confused w/ AF officers at this point. Black is a solid compromise that we may be able to earn.

The funny part is that we are are legal targets under the Geneval Conventions anyway!  A lawful combatant is anyone who wears a uniform and carries a weapon (and an Radio or a Cessna constitutes a weapon).  I thing the "Geneva Conventions" aregument is just white wash so that they don't have to use their true argument. "we are not comfortable with you looking to much like REAL officers"

I can see where you are going...but why not just eliminate the NCSA patches all together?

I can support taking them off all together, or compromising to this tab system, just so we don't take it too far & end right back up with the girl scout uniform. What we need to put on the uniform for whatever reason should be understated, professional, and in the AF example if at all possible.

Agreed.

[lordmonar]

Sir, either CAP is part of the AF family, or it's edging toward the girl scouts. I'm not in CAP to be involved w/ ES. I don't mind helping out a bit when I'm needed, but CAP is not a SaR agency, it's an AF support agency.

Well here I got to call you on.  We ARE a SAR agency...and that is how we support the USAF.  END OF STORY.  We cannot support the USAF in any other way.  The USAF cannot use us to support combat operations.   That means 98% of the stuff going on on base.  The USAF needs services troops, cooks, cops, and host of very technically oriented specialties.  Even the Administration Troops are all now fully qualified computer geeks.  Understanding the personnel system is a full time job (heck there are Personnelists who don't know how to do their job).  How can CAP support the USAF other than taking on a group of missions and doing it the best we can.  SAR.  Border Security. DEA Support.  These are the jobs the USAF would be doing if we were not there.  How much more do you think we can do?  And just because our primary customer is the USAF....why can't we be the SAR agency for the entire country?  State, local, and federal?  Why can't we support private organizations if we find that we have some cross over ability.  Flying blood and organs.  Animal tracking for universities.

I understand you want to be closer to the USAF...it's what I want too.  But you are a little myopic in your vision.  Believe me.  If the USAF could find a way to use our talents, they would.  But there is just no other jobs that they can legitimately give to us.

[aveighter]

Major Joe Sez;

Debating hard hats is a pretty moot point, don't you think?  Think of it less as a uniform issue and more as a equipment one.

Still...having one [hard hat] as an option based on what conditions allow would be sound thinking.  Wearing it to meetings, in reviewing columns and other "status symbol" events is meshuggah! Apocryphal!  And countless other $1.98 words.

I agree with the good Major on this one.  We should mandate the wearing of Service Caps!  That will take care of this silly hat issue once and for all.

(I understand there will be a Nomex version available from Vanguard soon for flight operations and a plastic safety version for field operations)

[A1Steaksauce]

21. Implement a phase out date on the older service coat. (2)

AHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOO, I myself like the old service coat and despise the new along with most male cadets I know. The reason being is that it looks a lot like the female coat and it looks way to "businessy" and not very military.

[DNall]

Excuseme....we certainly do.  We wear MAJCOM, WING and Squadron patches.  MAJCOM and Squadron at a minimun....and then some members place the honor guard, prime beef, red hores, desaster preparedness team...and a host of other patches over the right breast.  And las I checked they still have not made a decision about whether there will be patches on the ABU or not.

The information I heard was that it was all coming off DCUs soon & would not be on ABUs. It's WAY too much, and only feasible because it's subdued patches with an in-garrison thought process behind them. In full color, that looks beyond stupid, and in the field it's spanish general looking. We should just get it down to a minimum & THEN have a conversation about what might NEED to go back on in what understated sort of form, & just keep it professional looking.

There may be some logic in the AF to wearing an org chart on your chest, but in CAP we come togther from many units to form a unified chain of command on the fly. I don't think wearing patches that say you answer to a unit/Wg chain of command, or that tell a story unrelated to your usefulness in the field is all a bad idea.

Never under estimate the value of a warm fuzzy to an adult too.  I like ribbons and bling.  I'll admit it!   Here is an alternitive for the cadet side of things.  A phase I ribbon that replaces curry, arnold and feik (that's 1 ribbon with 2 props) The Wright Brothers that will cover through Mitchel (that is 1 ribbon with 5 props) The Mitchell with props for each acheivement until Earhart and the the Earheart with two pips per acheivement. Kill the eaker and leave the Spaatz as is!

Actually, I'm fine w/ cadets getting a ribbon at each level. Just like JROTC, there are a ton of ribbons earned for minor accomplishments to keep immature minds jumping. Adults are by no means above that, but the SCALE of the accomplishment deserving recognition should be larger. If you follow the couple ribbon items from me, you'll see I'm not actually decreasing the overall number of decorations at all, in fact I'd be increasing them. I'd prefer to move to a system that puts more weight (& more ribbons) on merit based accomplishments, not just checking off a sheet. Certinly you can get people to do some crazy stuff for a silly piece of ribbon, and we should use that to our advantage, but it only works if the ribbon is made meaningful.

The funny part is that we are are legal targets under the Geneval Conventions anyway!  A lawful combatant is anyone who wears a uniform and carries a weapon (and an Radio or a Cessna constitutes a weapon).  I thing the "Geneva Conventions" aregument is just white wash so that they don't have to use their true argument. "we are not comfortable with you looking to much like REAL officers"

That's about right. I do think it's a smokescreen to avoid saying they just don't respect us as officers... which is completely valid given our entrance/education requirements, lack of any PT, OTS, etc resulting in un-earned grade by chumps off the street. Yeah I wouldn't want to say that to an org that exists to support me either.

The conventions by the way just say you can't dress up civilians in such a way that enemy combatabts may think they are in the military, and can't confuse people into thinking someone holds an officer's commission that does not. They pulled that out on metal grade w/ "US" on the new corporate service coat, and also on blue CAP slides on blues. The problem is once they invoked the geneva convention, anyone looking back on this in the future is going to see that & understand it to be a closed legal matter out of the AF's hands.

CAP not a sar agency:
Far as being a SaR agency, we're not. It's one of a few things we do some of the time, it's not WHO we are.

ELT tech is changing & while there will still be SOME missions, the majority (which were non-distress in the first place) will dry up over time. They hype is that we save the AF lots of money cause they might have to be out there w/ a C130 doing every one of these searches, but that's not remotely true. They're required to run AFRCC & to back up mutual aid w/ military resurces in emergency situations. Does that mean C130s? Maybe, but why couldn't they just send the funding for our fleet to state police aviation units via DHS? They'd get a LOT more bang for the buck that way & states would fund the flying & training of professional crews. They don't need our cadet program with the rise of JROTC, and they don't need to educate teh public on the need for a strong air & space force the way they needed to in the 40s & 50s. The fact is the CAP we started out as is just about obselete, and if it were thre seperate orgs running each of those missions, all of them would have been done away with long ago.

We have to evolve now. ELT tech & NIMS are the straw that broke the camels back on this one. We can't be who we were & survive. To undertake such a transformation requires vision for sure (there's some good material out there, but we might be lacking in the leadership to get it done), and requires us to accept that just maybe we aren't as bullet proof & all fired critically important to the AF as the hype says we are. I've spun that same hype to unsuspecting politicians before, but that doesn't mean we need to believe our own BS. We have to move beyond the denial phase, then we can get to making some changes.

[MIKE]

21. Implement a phase out date on the older service coat. (2)

AHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOO, I myself like the old service coat and despise the new along with most male cadets I know. The reason being is that it looks a lot like the female coat and it looks way to "businessy" and not very military.

What shade trousers do you have? 

[RiverAux]

Although I'm not a propoenent of requiring NOMEX for all flight activities I did find it interesting that the Marines are issuing NOMEX flightsuits to their armor and some of their infantry units in Iraq to reduce burn injuries caused by IEDs. 


I had thought that tank guys were already in NOMEX because I've seen them in jumpsuits I assumed were NOMEX before. 

[lordmonar]

We have to evolve now. ELT tech & NIMS are the straw that broke the camels back on this one. We can't be who we were & survive. To undertake such a transformation requires vision for sure (there's some good material out there, but we might be lacking in the leadership to get it done), and requires us to accept that just maybe we aren't as bullet proof & all fired critically important to the AF as the hype says we are. I've spun that same hype to unsuspecting politicians before, but that doesn't mean we need to believe our own BS. We have to move beyond the denial phase, then we can get to making some changes.

That is true...but we are still a SAR agency.....we need to find out what we can become...I agree with this....but if we are not a SAR agency then the USAF has no need for us anymore and we need to break with the USAF-AUX crowd and become CAP.  The Civil Air Patrol.  We do what you need in the air.  Be you USAF, DEA, FBI, HSA, FEMA, Red Cross, County Sheriff, Highway Patrol.  We can fill a lot of shoes if we break from being just the USAF-AUX.  Until that happens we can not change our basic paradigm.

So....now it comes down to it.  Do we break from USAF-AUX or do just become obsolete and go the way of the F-4?

[lordmonar]

Although I'm not a propoenent of requiring NOMEX for all flight activities I did find it interesting that the Marines are issuing NOMEX flightsuits to their armor and some of their infantry units in Iraq to reduce burn injuries caused by IEDs. 


I had thought that tank guys were already in NOMEX because I've seen them in jumpsuits I assumed were NOMEX before. 

The army tanker uniforms have been nomex for a long time.  The change may be that the troopers in the back are now wearing nomex instead of their BDU's. 

[Major Carrales]

The Good (I assume by now) Capt says...

I agree with the good Major on this one.  We should mandate the wearing of Service Caps!  That will take care of this silly hat issue once and for all.


My serive cap wearing days have been be reduced to service coat days in that I once again have a flight cap.

I had been wearing the prior because I has lent out the two that I owned to new aviators from our units that better needed them.  I have since been returned one and have ordered another one.

I may wear the service cap to our unit Holiday shin-dig on 11 December 2006.

The "dogpile" on the Major begun some months back is now a moot point.

You know, I ought to go around wearing the service cap just despite some of my detractors.

Naw...

[DNall]

We have to evolve now. ELT tech & NIMS are the straw that broke the camels back on this one. We can't be who we were & survive. To undertake such a transformation requires vision for sure (there's some good material out there, but we might be lacking in the leadership to get it done), and requires us to accept that just maybe we aren't as bullet proof & all fired critically important to the AF as the hype says we are. I've spun that same hype to unsuspecting politicians before, but that doesn't mean we need to believe our own BS. We have to move beyond the denial phase, then we can get to making some changes.

That is true...but we are still a SAR agency.....we need to find out what we can become...I agree with this....but if we are not a SAR agency then the USAF has no need for us anymore and we need to break with the USAF-AUX crowd and become CAP.  The Civil Air Patrol.  We do what you need in the air.  Be you USAF, DEA, FBI, HSA, FEMA, Red Cross, County Sheriff, Highway Patrol.  We can fill a lot of shoes if we break from being just the USAF-AUX.  Until that happens we can not change our basic paradigm.

So....now it comes down to it.  Do we break from USAF-AUX or do just become obsolete and go the way of the F-4?

We're not a SaR agency & the AF doesn't need us. CAP doesn't get to decide its relationship w/ the AF, congress does that. They say we exist to serve the AF & the AF owns us (in a figurative sense). If & when they decide we're obselete, CAP will not be allowed to spin off & will not remain affiliated with some other part of the govt. It would be dissolved & a couple laws changed to transfer the aircraft fleet back to the govt & redistribute it to state police or the like. W/o the AF & their strong support, both financial & emotional, there is no CAP. You can't spin off seperate parts of the org or attach it to some other agency. The govt will pay for the Aux of the AF, not some civilian flying club that tries to help people but isn't really qualified.

We don't need to find out what we can become, we need to decide & dynamically move to it, THEN show the AF what new options we've made avail to them. Be bold, get it done, then ask forgivness after the fact if necessary. Even if it's forgiveness, it'll cause resolution.

[arajca]

:off topic:
AFJROTC cannot replace the CAP cadet program because the number of JROTC units is governed by law and agreements among the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines. Each branch gets a set percentage of the toal number of JROTC units available. Additionally, JROTC units are tied to a specific school. If you don't go to a school with JROTC, you can't be in JROTC. The CAP cadet program gives the Air Force an advantage over the other services (admittedly a small advantage) in the number of Air Force based cadet units it has available to it. From my researches, no other military cadet program has the full nation-wide coverage CAP does. Some may have a unit or two in every state, but not all do.
:return to topic:

[DNall]

You know how much money the AF spends each year for what amounts to fewer than 2000-2500 kids even elgible to enter military service eash year? JROTC produces tens of thousands & generally does a better, or at least more consistent job of it. Cadet Programs is the only reason I care to be involved with CAP anymore, and I can certainly sell it when I want to, but the AF is gaining very little from us that they don't already have, and spending a truck load more per CAP cadet turning 18 each year than per graduating AFJROTC cadet. The decent geographic coverage, opportunity for homeschool/private school types, loop hole around JROTC limits, etc is all nice, but not nearly worth the money.

[lordmonar]

This is way off topic form the original thread..so maybe we should split it off.

I don't understand your point of view DNall.  If we are locked into the USAF and our only reason for being is going away...then CAP is going away.  End of story.  There is nothing that I can see that we can bring to the table other than what we already are.

There are no more missions that the USAF is doing or may be doing in the mid term future that CAP is in anyway shape or form ready to take on.  And there is nothing that I can see that we can do to change it.

The only thing I can see that CAP can do is to find a different sponsor.  If the USAF is done with us.  Let's see if the DEA can use a fleet of Cessna's (that belong to the corporation the USAF CANNOT TAKE THEM BACK.  It just don't work that way our fleet is not u.s. government property.)

If the DEA can use us...how about HLS, or FEMA, or Department of Energy or the Coast Guard!  Our specialty is air born search and rescue.  We only need to find a customer that has that need or a need close to it that we can transition to.

If you see we have to be locked in with the USAF, and they don't want our SAR capability....what missions do you think we can pick up from the USAF?  I'd really like to know.

[DNall]

Well certainly we are drifting well off topic, but it started out tying in.

I'd start by disputing that SaR is or was ever our only reason for being. Too many people take on that belief, but it's never been the case. We've always had many other major ES missions. There was a time before mandatory ELTs when CAP did little SaR. Then during the height of the cold war when we were again shifted into a civil defense force as the top job. Now we're facing a new reality where HLS dominates the short term world & 80-90% of SaR is going away.

You can throw that FLIR on the side of the plane & do a hell of a lot, same deal with advanced RadMon & chem/bio gear coming out that can be used from HAZMAT to terrorism. We already do a few front line disaster gigs in some states, I've heard some ambitious plans for how to field an organic combined air/grd team for assessment, rescue support, comm support - in fact a range of airborne comm options that were dynamite. There's lots of HLS work & dollars to be had, maybe some money for border defense if the Congress decides to let us play. There's an environmental mission like you see the CG running that the AF runs w/ larger planes & sats in conjunction w/ NOAA but maybe there's a place for us there. I thik just about everything the National Guard or 1AF does is on the table, plus a big percentage of domestic fixed wing avaition in the Army (which is a lot), then comes augmentation/support/supplement, working in conjunction w/ the AFA for one thing... there's a lot we CAN do, and that's the stuff we'd put in public versus what 1AF likes to play at.

Are we prepared to take that kind of thing on? I'm not so sure. In the days when CAP was created it was a simpler world, one w/o computers to start with. It was fine to have a bunch of civilians flying around using mark one eyeballs out the window of a surplus trainer to find someone that made a forced landing in a remote area & had no way to call for help. Today NIMS is professionalizing the standards for emergency responders around us & may well put a lot of CAP memebrs out of business (you saw the medical/phisical requirements on the way mentioned in that other thread right? And, the standrards are pretty serious stuff in their own right).

Does that mean CAP is obselete? Well, yes & no. The CAP of old has certainly seen its time come & go. We don't need hobbiests flying around looking for downed pilots. However, I think we can transform the organization into being capable of taking on all of those missions listed above. We've talked at length about what I'd like to see in the way of adult standards & professional development for the officer grades & to bring in enlisted or warrant grades & how to work those. I think that's the biggest thing is start by living up to AF standards, or rather 80% of an ANG/Res officer of the same grade type standard. Turn CAP into something more like a national Air-SDF, like how we started life. The people drawn to us will change when you change those aspects of our identity & culture, that will change our capabilties.


Oh, and so far as the planes staying w/ CAP, they wouldn't. They are property of the CAP corporation, but governed by the AF. The AF sets the fleet size they are willing to support & CAP can't fund them w/o those dollars so sells down accordingly. Likewise, the AF requests funds for the new planes, and can just as easily ask for that to be redirected thru DHS to state police aviation or whatever. There's also little item that allows CAP to sell the planes & keep the money. You see normally if you use appropriated fund to buy a non-expendable item & then you see that item, the money goes back to the govt. Congress can reverse that & take the cash or planes when the fleet gets ratcheted down. Bsically, they can sqeeze the fleet out of us in as little as 2-5 years if they want. They can doa lot of things really. They have more iherent power over CAP than anyone in CAP would like to admit. Really, if Congress wanted to, they could dissestablish the corporation & sieze our assets pending investigations, then with us dead can absoard the assets for redistribution. It never was free money & it won't end that way if they put us down.

[Major Carrales]

Emergency Services if one of our main Missions (remember Emergency Services, Aerospace Education and Cadet Program?)

Now, I would say that qualifies us as a SAR organization, if not, what is Emergency Services?  The USAF cannot use CAP in cobat operations or even support unless the US is under attack.

I should say that I prefer to do SAR than to live through the conditions of an all out invasion of CONUS.  I do not pray for disaster to be activated, but we must be vigilant (semper vi, remember) to meet those conditions.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Joe, you got it right.  SAR is part of what we do, we are not, to the exclusion of all other missions, a SAR agency.

We can perform ANY "Non-combat" mission of the Air Force.  SAR is one of them. 

We are in a position to be the US Air Force's major contribution to homeland defense, but two conditions have to be met:

1.  We have to get our own act together, and

2.  We have to shoot all the lawyers at Maxwell.

[Ned]

You know how much money the AF spends each year for what amounts to fewer than 2000-2500 kids even elgible to enter military service eash year? JROTC produces tens of thousands & generally does a better, or at least more consistent job of it. Cadet Programs is the only reason I care to be involved with CAP anymore, and I can certainly sell it when I want to, but the AF is gaining very little from us that they don't already have, and spending a truck load more per CAP cadet turning 18 each year than per graduating AFJROTC cadet. The decent geographic coverage, opportunity for homeschool/private school types, loop hole around JROTC limits, etc is all nice, but not nearly worth the money.

Where are you getting your figures?

The last time I checked, it looked like the USAF's cost/cadet/year in appropriated dollars was:

AF JROTC: $358

CAP: $127.

Which makes sense if you consider the hundreds of paid JROTC instructors that have no counterpart in CAP.

Have you checked the CAP vs. JROTC commissioning/enlistment/zoo admittance rates on a per capita or cost basis?

I think you'll find that CAP does very well for our Air Force stakeholders.

[DNall]

Where are you getting your figures?

The last time I checked, it looked like the USAF's cost/cadet/year in appropriated dollars was:

AF JROTC: $358

CAP: $127.

Which makes sense if you consider the hundreds of paid JROTC instructors that have no counterpart in CAP.

Have you checked the CAP vs. JROTC commissioning/enlistment/zoo admittance rates on a per capita or cost basis?

I think you'll find that CAP does very well for our Air Force stakeholders.

That's HIGHLY misleading. We have CAP cadets for up to 9 years, they have cadets for a max of four years. We also carry a lot of cadets on our rosters that are not actually active. If you read what I wrote, it says per cadet turning 18 (becoming elgible to enter military service) per year. If you run those numbers you'll find a VERY different picture.

I have seen statistics, though I don;t know where to find them now, that say cadets with a certain amount of active CAP service/advancement have I think a 22% better pass rate in initial military programs than do individuals with one year of JROTC or other cadet program experience, I'm just going by rough memory though so don't quote me on that. The thinking is more that this is a function of it requiring greater determination & self-discipline to advance as a CAP cadet, so the lower number that do are naturally going to be mnore successful when tested again.

Joe, you got it right.  SAR is part of what we do, we are not, to the exclusion of all other missions, a SAR agency.

We can perform ANY "Non-combat" mission of the Air Force.  SAR is one of them. 

We are in a position to be the US Air Force's major contribution to homeland defense, but two conditions have to be met:

1.  We have to get our own act together, and

2.  We have to shoot all the lawyers at Maxwell.

That's right, it's not WHO we are. SaR is one thing in ES, along with CN, HLS, DR, etc. We are a broad adaptable agency that does SOME search (no rescue to speak of) in the midst of a lot of other things, and all of that just makes up a third of what we do. For instance, a police department may from train its members & from time to time participate in a search for a missing person, that doesn't mean the police department is a SaR agency, it's a LE agency that may be able to also do some limited SaR work when it needs to, kinda like CAP.

I'm making a point about this because IF you believe we are primarily a SaR agency  & are a part of CAP to be a part of SaR activities, then when that goes mostly obselete here in the near future, then we indeed will be rather useless to the AF. If you drop the hype we thrust on ourselves & the snow job we send at them, you can see we're almost there already. The point where you're identified as useless is not the time to be looking for money to change into something else. You have to rock & fire off a success to change things before they're needed, otherwise you sink.

We can do ANY domestic AF mission that doesn't involve direct combat, which does include combat support. Tat's prety musch what we have been doing all along, they just restated it to encourage us to broaden our thinking.

NOW, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Ned]

That's HIGHLY misleading. We have CAP cadets for up to 9 years, they have cadets for a max of four years. We also carry a lot of cadets on our rosters that are not actually active. If you read what I wrote, it says per cadet turning 18 (becoming elgible to enter military service) per year. If you run those numbers you'll find a VERY different picture.

I have seen statistics, though I don;t know where to find them now, that say cadets with a certain amount of active CAP service/advancement have I think a 22% better pass rate in initial military programs than do individuals with one year of JROTC or other cadet program experience, I'm just going by rough memory though so don't quote me on that. The thinking is more that this is a function of it requiring greater determination & self-discipline to advance as a CAP cadet, so the lower number that do are naturally going to be mnore successful when tested again.

Oh, I dunno.  I think it's a little more misleading to suggest that we "have cadets for up to nine years" when we both know that most CAP cadets don't stay more than a year or two, and less than 5% stay over 6 years.

And to the extent that units carry non-active cadets on the rosters, that just makes us more efficient in our contact time with cadets that DO actively participate.

And while I appreciate the fact that you where trying to compare CAP cadets at age 18 to the average JROTC high school graduate, I simply repeat my request:

Where did you get those numbers?  As a CP kind of guy, I'm genuinely interested.

But given your figures, I'm a little concerned that we are comparing apples and oranges here.  Most CAP cadets do not remain until age 18, and you are excluding cadets who have left by age 18 and still go on to enlist or commission.  Surely these cadets have some value to our USAF stakeholder? 

But given that those cadets who DO remain after age 18 are our most enthusiastic and arguably  most successful cadets, I'd really like to "run those numbers" as you suggest to try to get some differential success/cost effectiveness figures.

And even given my limited imaginaion, I still have trouble imagining how CAP spends more on our 18+ cadets than our <18 year olds.  So tell me again, what is wrong with the hard numbers I posted?

[DNall]

AFROTC produces an annual report covering JROTC w/ stats. There's some other data too. There were some studies a few years back that I can't find anymore that compared varrious cadet programs (CAP, NSCC, ACA, JROTC) in terms of enlistment/commission rates, success in military programs, etc. You have to go looking for yourself to track it all down again.

I realize we virtually never have a cadet for 9 years, JROTC cadets tend not to stay four years either, that was far from my point. My point was we have a wider age distribution. Even if you cut off the 18-21 cadets, the fact that we take kids as young as 11-12yo versus freshmen skews our numbers. Run those figures by distribution to see the gross number we can theoretically place in military service each year versus JROTC. And what gross number DO we place in enlisted, academy or college ROTC service after HS (I grant the percentages are better for CAP, but it's such a minascule program it doesn't matter). Then subtract the inactive numbers from our roster & divide against the total spent on cadet programs (which is a pretty good amount); the result will be a dramatically higher figure than JROTC (remember school districts rather than the AF pay most of the expenses for JROTC).

Oh and sorry, I'm not restricting it to active CAP cadets turning 18. The study I saw, which I'm trying to ref from memory, used a standard of cadet advanced to a certain point in the program. JROTC involved I believe 1-2 years. CAP involved a mid-NCO level (even if they quit after that at 13, they'd be counted for CAP in the year they turned 18), the others had some similiar standards. There was some differential above my math skills applied to cancel out dual members. None of this was written to compare one program versus another, it was a DoD sponsored study to help justify the expenditure. I believe I saw it as a ref in a War College paper, or maybe Joint Defense, I forget something like that though. I think CAP ref'd it at the time, this would be about 5 years back. It's still true today though, maybe even moreso given our recent retention slide.

I'm also a cadet programs kind of guy, and franly would have passed on all the BS CAP comes with if it weren't for the opportunity to work with & help such outstanding young men & women as they reach for & attain their dreams (tear  ).  I'm not advocating getting rid of our cadet program, or any part of CAP for that matter. I'm not saying it isn't a good thing that the AF appreciates. I'm saying you have to take a hard look at the big picture & wonder if it is SO valuable to them that they aren't willing to consider better solutions. If it's not that explicitily critically important to them, then we need to change so it is & they see that it is, or we're going to be in trouble down the road.

[JohnKachenmeister]

DNall:

Where does it say we are restricted to domestic missions?

[Major Carrales]

I should say that these are non-combat roles that the USAF could charge us with...


Not so probable missions in that the conditions do not exist at present...
1) Transporting aircraft, CAP Pilots could be rated to transfer aircraft as in WWII.  That is if we were ever in the need of USAF pilots in theater.

2) Operating Domestic (CONUS) communications for the USAF.

3) Providing passive security at USAF installations

More likely missions
1) Inland SAR

2) Communications net as per the CAP networks

3) Man recruiting stations

4) Border Surveylance

5) Augmenting pool for Reserve Officers

Anyone else want to be creative and add to this list?

[afgeo4]

LOVE the new badge design, but to cut costs and ridiculousness, eliminate the enamel please.  Aircrew badges don't have to be very distinctive from military since they don't suggest military affiliation (a civillian could wear wings and it's not against the law).  Also, create a Recruiting occupational badge since there is a recruiting/retention career field in CAP now.  Perhaps something similar to the USAF one?  On that note, create a badge for EVERY CAP career field.  Also create a cloth version of each one.

A++ on overall design though!

(AFROTC shoulder boards aren't black, they're navy blue to reflect USAF Officers.  The Army ROTC wears black ones to reflect Army Officers.)

Bigger than any of those questions I think is... do we transform to ABU's, stay with BDU's or go with Corporate Utilities after 2011 (proposed mandatory wear date for ABU in USAF)?  What would our uniforms look like with current insignia in ABU colors?  I know we have photoshop wizards out there!  Please no patches since USAF is eliminating them from ABU's.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Ferrying aircraft is never going to happen.

"Passive" security... What's that?  I could see assisting in Pass and ID, and doing traffic/crowd control at big base events, or perating an information booth.  But that would be about it as far as security.

CONUS commo... maybe backup in an emergency.

PA support.  We could provide journalists and other staff to base newspapers and magazines.

Weather briefers.  We have pilots that, with a little orientation training, could augment base operations as pilot briefers.

Medical support.  We have doctors, nurses, EMT's that could assist in on-base medical support.

Legal.  Our lawyers could assist deployed families with legal matters, write wills for deploying troops, etc.

Personnel.  In the event of a reserve deployment, our admin folks could assist in getting records complete, arranging required briefings, etc.

[JohnKachenmeister]

LOVE the new badge design, but to cut costs and ridiculousness, eliminate the enamel please.  Aircrew badges don't have to be very distinctive from military since they don't suggest military affiliation (a civillian could wear wings and it's not against the law).  Also, create a Recruiting occupational badge since there is a recruiting/retention career field in CAP now.  Perhaps something similar to the USAF one?  On that note, create a badge for EVERY CAP career field.  Also create a cloth version of each one.

A++ on overall design though!

(AFROTC shoulder boards aren't black, they're navy blue to reflect USAF Officers.  The Army ROTC wears black ones to reflect Army Officers.)

Bigger than any of those questions I think is... do we transform to ABU's, stay with BDU's or go with Corporate Utilities after 2011 (proposed mandatory wear date for ABU in USAF)?  What would our uniforms look like with current insignia in ABU colors?  I know we have photoshop wizards out there!  Please no patches since USAF is eliminating them from ABU's.

The AF Uniform Board has already authorized the ABU for CAP, but the wearout date of the BDU has yet to be determined.  Also, OUR NB has to change the regs.  In this case the suspersonic part of the Air Force is actually ahead of the power curve.  Look to add about 5 years on to the phase in of the ABU to be fully phased in to CAP.  That's been about standard for uniform changes.

DNall did a lot of research, and the enamel does NOT add to the cost.  Current manufacturing techniques make enamel badges cost the same as bare metal.  Also, the status of "Auxiliary Pilot" needs to be differentiated from the "Air Force Pilot."  But I want to see the CAP Form 5 for "Astronaut."    If you do a Form 5 ride in a Shuttle, does that also qualify as a 5G? 

[Hawk200]

Also, create a Recruiting occupational badge since there is a recruiting/retention career field in CAP now.  Perhaps something similar to the USAF one?  On that note, create a badge for EVERY CAP career field. 

There is a "Recruiting and Retention" badge. It's on page 121 of 39-1(that's the page marked as 121, not page 121 of the PDF file.). For ease of reference, I've included that page as an attachment. The badge is on the bottom right.

Weather briefers.  We have pilots that, with a little orientation training, could augment base operations as pilot briefers.

As someone that went halfway through Air Force weather school, I can tell you it's not as easy as you might think. I attended four months of an eight month course for weather at Keesler AFB, before a cantankerous lady named Katrina interrupted my training. The block on weather briefing alone was over a month long. That was one of those blocks that I hadn't gotten to yet, but I heard the horror stories from both students and instructors.

Although it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to recruit anyone in weather that you can find. The Air Force, Coast Guard and Marines go through the exact same course now, the Navy attended part of it(they branched off later). The Army has a weather observer MOS (13W) that probably has enough training to brief pilots. And all of them probably know where to get weather reports for their area. It's kind of a geek type job, once you're in it, you're always checking the weather. (BTW, that isn't intended as an insult, it's a very intensive field of study.)

[DNall]

DNall:

Where does it say we are restricted to domestic missions?

I don't know that it does, but that's a bit TOO far out of the box. First things first anyway. If for instance they decide to use our chaplains overseas, I would hope they pay them per diem & either give them reserve commissions or list them as contractors. The Geneva convention doesn't exactly cover the volunteer category.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Actually, the Geneva Convention (For what its worth against OUR enemies) does cover "Civilians accompanying an armed force" and specifies that they are to be extended POW status.  However, in the case of a chaplain, their GC Category is "Retained Person," which is a class of persons limited to chaplains and medical personnel.

I was thinking actually of augmentation at overseas bases, however.

[DNall]

LOVE the new badge design, but to cut costs and ridiculousness, eliminate the enamel please.  Aircrew badges don't have to be very distinctive from military since they don't suggest military affiliation (a civillian could wear wings and it's not against the law).  Also, create a Recruiting occupational badge since there is a recruiting/retention career field in CAP now.  Perhaps something similar to the USAF one?  On that note, create a badge for EVERY CAP career field.  Also create a cloth version of each one.

A++ on overall design though!

(AFROTC shoulder boards aren't black, they're navy blue to reflect USAF Officers.  The Army ROTC wears black ones to reflect Army Officers.)

Bigger than any of those questions I think is... do we transform to ABU's, stay with BDU's or go with Corporate Utilities after 2011 (proposed mandatory wear date for ABU in USAF)?  What would our uniforms look like with current insignia in ABU colors?  I know we have photoshop wizards out there!  Please no patches since USAF is eliminating them from ABU's.

Actually the AF is very particular about CAP having badges that can be confused with theirs. That's why the outter wings & are not allowed to be the same as AF aviators - we're not on their level. Using color enamel centers allows us to put together a classy badge that gets much closer to the target while being clearly distinctive. The AF officers that've seen those designs to date have been very impressed. It'll be moving up the chain soon.

AFROTC/Academy/JROTC does in fact have black grade slides. Here's the reg, check page 40, fig 10-1: http://afrotc.iit.edu/cadets/files/rotci36-2008.pdf

The practical reason we wear AF uniforms is because they are avail from surplus & at low cost do to production volume so as to minimize the cost on our cadets. As such, we WILL move to ABUs when the BDU supply is getting tight & surplus ABUs are showing up in enough volume to make it reasonable. Generally that means two years after the AF mandatory wear date will be the CAP initial wear date. The last info I saw is that the AF will be mandatory into ABUs in 09, which puts CAP starting into them around 2011. Are you asking what our badges/tapes would look like on that material? White on ultramarine versus dark blue versus OD on ABU material? Well, I'd be glad to photoshop something up for you, but I don't have access to a good sample of the material yet. I also don't know what the AF intends to do as far as a background for their own badges/tapes. I assume keep the same blue on OD.


John,
You mean if we had a domestic augmentation program that it could be run teh same way by overseas units at overseas bases? That's reasonable, within certain limits. I mean pissing off some local idiot is a bit different than an international incedent, and the treat picture is differnt even if you're talking about the UK.

I have a quesiton on that by the way. I know we have overseas cadet Sqs at military bases. It is restricted to that? For instance, if you had a compound of American oil workers living with their families in Saudi Arabia, and they have a CAP unit in their private HS inside the walls? I mean apparently they can have a little league team that goes to the world series & all the players are from the US.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I have never heard of a CAP overseas squadron operated anywhere but on a military base for dependent children.

I don't know if there is a regulation limiting that or not.

The biggest issue I can see is wear of the US uniform in foreign lands.  In some cases it may be illegal, (Which is why we put IACE in blazers) and in Saudi Arabia it may be unhealthy!

[JohnKachenmeister]

Also... how you gonna do O-flights? 

[JohnKachenmeister]

And overseas augmentation, I was just looking ahead.  I could see how, with manpower reductions in the USAF to favor the Army and Marines, the AF might get to a point that they may actually be dependent on CAP. Packing up some CAP medical people and chaplains from the US to help with a rush of casualties coming in to Germany, for example.

[SarDragon]

I have never heard of a CAP overseas squadron operated anywhere but on a military base for dependent children.

I don't know if there is a regulation limiting that or not.

The biggest issue I can see is wear of the US uniform in foreign lands.  In some cases it may be illegal, (Which is why we put IACE in blazers) and in Saudi Arabia it may be unhealthy!

See CAPR 35-4. It is very specific about the requirements for establishing an overseas squadron. I used to be in the one at Misawa AB, Japan, as did MSgt Harris some years later.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Also, create a Recruiting occupational badge since there is a recruiting/retention career field in CAP now.  Perhaps something similar to the USAF one?  On that note, create a badge for EVERY CAP career field. 

There is a "Recruiting and Retention" badge. It's on page 121 of 39-1(that's the page marked as 121, not page 121 of the PDF file.). For ease of reference, I've included that page as an attachment. The badge is on the bottom right.

Weather briefers.  We have pilots that, with a little orientation training, could augment base operations as pilot briefers.

As someone that went halfway through Air Force weather school, I can tell you it's not as easy as you might think. I attended four months of an eight month course for weather at Keesler AFB, before a cantankerous lady named Katrina interrupted my training. The block on weather briefing alone was over a month long. That was one of those blocks that I hadn't gotten to yet, but I heard the horror stories from both students and instructors.

Although it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to recruit anyone in weather that you can find. The Air Force, Coast Guard and Marines go through the exact same course now, the Navy attended part of it(they branched off later). The Army has a weather observer MOS (13W) that probably has enough training to brief pilots. And all of them probably know where to get weather reports for their area. It's kind of a geek type job, once you're in it, you're always checking the weather. (BTW, that isn't intended as an insult, it's a very intensive field of study.)

Hawk:

I don't think the briefer needs to be a meteorologist, just somebody who can collect, analyze, and interpret weather trends and advise a pilot on a specific route of flight.

That's what pilots do every time they fly.

The training would be for lazy sligs like me who never use weather data to develop my own analysis, but rather calls 1-800-WX-BRIEF and asks intelligent questions.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The weather data is included on all pilot written exams, but a lot of us never use ALL the charts and data available, and consequently we get rusty.

[WheelsUp]

Ya know, CAP spends ENTIRELY too much time worrying about doggone uniform issues than on the doggone mission. Does Vanguard OWN CAP?

  I, for one, am here as a volunteer. I pay to be here. Last thing I need is to spend more $$ on seemingly endless uniform changes. I was in the Army for 7 years, and we had nowhere near this rate of change.

  Anyone think it would be worth pointing this out to Maxwell? Or would a motivated volunteer like me get the smackdown for that?

 

[DNall]

CAP has no authority over the mission, and for the most part can't do anything about many of the problems we face, those items are in the hands of AF & Congress. So, CAP acts out by responding to the need for change in a way they can control. There are other things they can & should be doing, but that's slow tedious hard work that'd run off members. They also do a lot of unifoorm work to placate members so they'll stay around. They're actually pretty responsive to needs expressed from the field, just for retention sake.

[MIKE]

It would be better if the uniform changes were less frequent.  It seems like every time the NB meets there is something new or changed with the uniform.  I think there should be a lot more input from JoeMember too, before implementation.

[AlphaSigOU]

AFA grade slides are blue and silver on the light blue shirt; the hard shoulder boards for service digs/ mess dress are black on silver.

[FARRIER]

"The last time I checked, it looked like the USAF's cost/cadet/year in appropriated dollars was:

AF JROTC: $358

CAP: $127.

Which makes sense if you consider the hundreds of paid JROTC instructors that have no counterpart in CAP."

http://www.afoats.af.mil/afjrotc/instructors.asp

AF JROTC instructors are retired military officers and NCO's. Can every cadet and composite squadron say that about their cadet programs officers? Even as a cadet in the 1980's. it was only a 50/50 chance that cadet programs officers would have any kind of military background.

[PDCT042]

Ya know, CAP spends ENTIRELY too much time worrying about doggone uniform issues than on the doggone mission. Does Vanguard OWN CAP?

  I, for one, am here as a volunteer. I pay to be here. Last thing I need is to spend more $$ on seemingly endless uniform changes. I was in the Army for 7 years, and we had nowhere near this rate of change.

  Anyone think it would be worth pointing this out to Maxwell? Or would a motivated volunteer like me get the smackdown for that?

 

I second the former.