Who owns their own narrowband radio?

[Custer]

I'm coming back to CAP after a long break.  24 years actually.  When I left there were no computers, no cell phones.  We were alerted via pagers and message traffic was received on what even then were ancient teletypewriters driven by crystal controlled radioshack scanners.

From what I understand texting to cell phones has replaced the pagers, and email has replaced the teletype.  But I'm not clear on the radios.  I know the modified ham radio gear is out due to the change to narrowband.  I thought the new radios were out of my price range but apparently an ICOM IC-F14 can be had for around $200 which is about what I paid for my IC-02AT back in the day.

How much justification is there to buy your own handheld nowadays?  In the three meetings I've been to so far I noticed not one person was carrying one.

[arajca]

I do have my own EFJ 5100 - with all the encryption and digital stuff. Bought it used for $650, including two batteries, speaker mike, and charger.

Few members have their own since very little traffic is passed on the radios.

Before buying your own, check how many channels you'll realisitcally need in your wing. COWG has 22 repeaters plus the simplex channels, so the IC-F14 has limited use here.

[Major Lord]

I have  six Icom F30GS's. They are okay because they have been in service for quite a few years with CAP, but they are not digital or encrypted, and would not be a good choice for an on-going purchase. an APCO NB radio is an expensive animal!

Major Lord

[Eclipse]

How much justification is there to buy your own handheld nowadays?  In the three meetings I've been to so far I noticed not one person was carrying one.

Very little.  If you are not ES qualified there's no need to have one - the nets are used only for confidence checks and even at that
only a small percentage of members participate.

Unless you are on a mission or doing training, there's not much reason to be carrying around a CAP radio.

[RADIOMAN015]

How much justification is there to buy your own handheld nowadays?  In the three meetings I've been to so far I noticed not one person was carrying one.

Very little.  If you are not ES qualified there's no need to have one - the nets are used only for confidence checks and even at that
only a small percentage of members participate.

Unless you are on a mission or doing training, there's not much reason to be carrying around a CAP radio.

Well if you can afford to get a compliant radio, portable, base, or mobile, please do.   When emergencies come up, regardless of your ES training status if a radio station can be utilized it will be.   

Also if you get your amateur radio license you could use your radio also for the ham 2 meter band as well as cap.  You would at least need the 6 to 9 simplex channels (depending upon wing's programming plan) and maybe a few repeaters right in your area.

There's "safety in numbers" so to speak, and getting more CAP members to buy compliant radios (especially if they are hams that can also use the radio in amateur radio), adds synergy to the radio network, and it makes it more flexible to responding to emergencies.
RM     
   

[Eclipse]

Well if you can afford to get a compliant radio, portable, base, or mobile, please do.   When emergencies come up, regardless of your ES training status if a radio station can be utilized it will be.

Um...no.

The only people allowed in CAP to use CAP radios in ES situations are those with ES qualifications - an ROA is not enough.

[Custer]

Well if you can afford to get a compliant radio, portable, base, or mobile, please do.   When emergencies come up, regardless of your ES training status if a radio station can be utilized it will be.

Um...no.

The only people allowed in CAP to use CAP radios in ES situations are those with ES qualifications - an ROA is not enough.

I'm an amateur "tech plus" as I qualified back when we actually had to know code.  And getting a basic ES qualification back does not appear to be that difficult.

My main question is that the new radios such as the Icom F14 have preset channels.  Can you set those yourself or does the comm officer have to do it?  I've found out what the CAWG channels are, and except for the two that are inbetween where channels used to be (and so my scanner can't tune them) I can already at least listen with a scanner I already have.  I don't hear anything, not even the "beep and rush" we used to hear in my army days when you could pick up the transmission but your decoder was set wrong.  So there isn't encoded traffic on those either.

I've been told the day is coming when CAP radio traffic will even be encrypted, and I know from my military experience that means only certain radios and someone responsible to go around with a key setting those.  I can't really see how privately owned radios will be able to do that.

At least the days when I had to carry a second radio for talking to the airplane are over.

[Eclipse]

I'm an amateur "tech plus" as I qualified back when we actually had to know code.  And getting a basic ES qualification back does not appear to be that difficult.

Its not a "basic" ES qualification - whatever that is.  Unless you are aircrew or a ground team / UDF, it's Mission Radio Operator at minimum.  None of it is rocket science, but you should attain them before you insinuate they are "no big deal".

My point is that there is a misconception that member with radios who do nothing but check into the nets will somehow become the savior of CAP when things really hit the fan - nothing is farther from the truth.  You're either qualified or you're not.  Which is why I find it amusing when HAM guys who aren't interested in ES go out and spend hundreds of dollars on compliant equipment and then complain they can't play.

My main question is that the new radios such as the Icom F14 have preset channels.  Can you set those yourself or does the comm officer have to do it?  I've found out what the CAWG channels are, and except for the two that are inbetween where channels used to be (and so my scanner can't tune them) I can already at least listen with a scanner I already have.  I don't hear anything, not even the "beep and rush" we used to hear in my army days when you could pick up the transmission but your decoder was set wrong.  So there isn't encoded traffic on those either.

Anyone with the knowledge and equipment can program a radio, however you must be properly licensed and the radio must be certified
by CAP in order to use it legally (in both the CAP and real-world sense).

Yes, encryption is on the table, and the equipment being issued by NHQ is capable of it, but your experience will tell you that is no small proposition. I, for one, will welcome the day when we can key up our radios with some certainty of confidential communications.

[SJFedor]

Yes, encryption is on the table, and the equipment being issued by NHQ is capable of it, but your experience will tell you that is no small proposition. I, for one, will welcome the day when we can key up our radios with some certainty of confidential communications.

We (Louisville, in my real job) just finished the transition to digital 800mhz narrowband not that long ago. It's kinda neat, because it's all encrypted. Or so we're told. Haven't had the news agencies quoting people heard over the scanners anymore though....

Ive heard a lot of bad about the 800s, but ours are actually crystal clear and haven't had a single problem with them yet. It's nice cuz you can see who's keying up on the channel on the display, as theyre all encoded. They're much better than the 400's we were on before.

[BlueLakes1]

We (Louisville, in my real job) just finished the transition to digital 800mhz narrowband not that long ago. It's kinda neat, because it's all encrypted. Or so we're told. Haven't had the news agencies quoting people heard over the scanners anymore though....

Ive heard a lot of bad about the 800s, but ours are actually crystal clear and haven't had a single problem with them yet. It's nice cuz you can see who's keying up on the channel on the display, as theyre all encoded. They're much better than the 400's we were on before.

Yeah, but it's just not right to not be able to hear "squad 211 radio, get me a line to University". "Squad 211, take med channel 8" anymore.

Bah humbug. 

[wuzafuzz]

Well if you can afford to get a compliant radio, portable, base, or mobile, please do.   When emergencies come up, regardless of your ES training status if a radio station can be utilized it will be.

Um...no.

The only people allowed in CAP to use CAP radios in ES situations are those with ES qualifications - an ROA is not enough.

However, authorized member owned radios can be used by others.  In fact, that was a condition of licensing mine in COWG.  I have loaned my personal radio to others on occasion (it's insured).  As a ham, the OP may very well be interested in the Communications Track, in which case the radio can be useful even when not participating in ES activities.  Of course the radio can also be used for CAP activities that are not ES.

Having said all that, the approach of encryption leaves some unanswered questions.  I am hesitant to recommend members invest in their own radios unless they really want to.  My radio is perfectly capable of encryption; whether CAP will be willing or able to accommodate loading keys on member owned radios remains to be seen.  Even then, it might not be the end of the world...will ALL missions require encryption once it's available?  Perhaps not.  Either way, I also use my radio for ham radio so it will still be useful to me.  For me, it has been a worthwhile investment. 

BTW, mine is a Motorola XTS5000 MII.  It is encryption capable with OTAR (Over The Air Rekeying), APCO25 digital modulation, and a host of other bells and whistles.  I bought it used for about $700.  The battery, speaker mic, and antennas are interchangeable with the CAP EFJ handheld radios.  Handy.

[Eclipse]

However, authorized member owned radios can be used by others.  In fact, that was a condition of licensing mine in COWG.  I have loaned my personal radio to others on occasion (it's insured).

True - my wing has similar provisions, though in practice its somewhat of a challenge to get people to cough up their personal gear for someone else.  But seriously, why would anyone spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on a radio just so someone else could use it
when there is equipment sitting on the shelves of most wings?

[JoeTomasone]

The only people allowed in CAP to use CAP radios in ES situations are those with ES qualifications - an ROA is not enough.

I hate to split hairs here, but this is not technically correct.   Anyone with an ROA can operate a CAP Radio, but only those who are ES qualified can participate in missions.    And, to be further technical, as long as you are a trainee, you can participate in that specialty under proper supervision AND operate the radio if you hold an ROA.

[Custer]

Its not a "basic" ES qualification - whatever that is.  Unless you are aircrew or a ground team / UDF, it's Mission Radio Operator at minimum.  None of it is rocket science, but you should attain them before you insinuate they are "no big deal".

I should have said RE qualifying would be no big deal.  I did ground team UDF back in the 80's and at that time held whatever the equivalent qualifications were at the time.  But all I needed was an Icom 02-AT with one easy to do modification (that cost nothing) to be able to communicate   The PL tones could be encoded with no additional tools or equipment.

Now you have not only the tones but also narrowband and whatever P25 is (I don't know).  I would be willing to spend the $200 for an Icom F14 if it gave me back what I used to have back in teh day - even if the radio would be of no use for ham.  But from what I'm reading here it seems like with cell phones and email that radios have been relegated to search use only and n longer are the backbone of general communications they once were.

So if I need a radio - they will give me one to use as long as I need it, then take it back.  And I guess text me instead of page me if there is a mission.  OK.  Times change.

[JoeTomasone]

I'm an amateur "tech plus" as I qualified back when we actually had to know code.  And getting a basic ES qualification back does not appear to be that difficult.

Its not a "basic" ES qualification - whatever that is.  Unless you are aircrew or a ground team / UDF, it's Mission Radio Operator at minimum.

Erroneous.   If you have an ROA, you can use a radio.   If you are qualified (or a supervised trainee), you can participate in a mission.   If you have an ROA and are qualified, you can operate a radio in a mission.   There is no specific ES qualification that magically permits you to operate a radio where others somehow cannot.
   

[Eclipse]

I'm an amateur "tech plus" as I qualified back when we actually had to know code.  And getting a basic ES qualification back does not appear to be that difficult.

Its not a "basic" ES qualification - whatever that is.  Unless you are aircrew or a ground team / UDF, it's Mission Radio Operator at minimum.

Erroneous.   If you have an ROA, you can use a radio.   If you are qualified (or a supervised trainee), you can participate in a mission.   If you have an ROA and are qualified, you can operate a radio in a mission.   There is no specific ES qualification that magically permits you to operate a radio where others somehow cannot. 

Arguing the minutia of which ES quals are ok isn't the point.

My point is, some random member at home, with an ROA and a personal radio, who is otherwise not involved in ES,  can't start helping relay mission traffic unless they are somehow qualified or supervised and signed into the mission.  We have way too many HAM guys who think the rules are the same for us and that is they run out the door and hang an antenna in a disaster zone and save the day.

[N Harmon]

I own my own comm gear. For me, it made more sense to spend $200 for a radio than for Wing to issue me one worth several thousands of dollars that I would be on the hook for if lost.

[Slim]

I also own all of my own radio equipment, but most of it was procured well before narrowbanding and digital modulation became such a hot button issue.  Most of my purchases were made long ago, when I discovered the durability of commercial grade equipment (most of my stuff is Motorola), along with enough channels to handle CAP, fire dept, EMS, amateur, and marine frequencies.  The only radio I purchased specifically for CAP was my Tait mobile, and it is still able to do double duty.

I'm not much of a player in ES anymore, and I still get more than my money's worth out of my equipment.  Everyone seems to forget that other activities (like encampment) also need communications.  With a limited number available in our comm cache, using my own means that there is a radio available for someone else.

I suppose that if the day should come where I need digital operation or encryption for a specific activity, a radio will be made available for me to use.

[wuzafuzz]

However, authorized member owned radios can be used by others.  In fact, that was a condition of licensing mine in COWG.  I have loaned my personal radio to others on occasion (it's insured).

True - my wing has similar provisions, though in practice its somewhat of a challenge to get people to cough up their personal gear for someone else.  But seriously, why would anyone spend hundreds to thousands of dollars on a radio just so someone else could use it
when there is equipment sitting on the shelves of most wings?

Well, I can tell you why I, and a fair number of my peers have bought their own gear.  In my wing all the portable radios have been issued.  There are none left on shelves.  Period.  When we need HT's for an event we have to scare them up from people's houses (we have no office) or from other squadrons.  That simply doesn't work well on short notice missions.  For those of us with a need and the means, buying our own is a viable alternative.  Unfortunate but true.

The table of allowances is fine and all, but my squadron is growing like gangbusters and there are no more portables...no matter what the ToA says.  Mobiles can be had, but they aren't a lot of use for ground teams once they leave their cars. 

It would be ideal if we had needed equipment sitting on shelves, but we don't.

Finally, some of us are radio hobbyists.  We like radio, just like some people like and buy their own airplanes, boats, Jeeps, etc.  As for someone else using my radio, if there is a need, they can use it.  It's insured.  Practically though, no one has ever asked.  As a CUL I would never put the habeas grabus on someone's personally owned radio.

[Custer]

I'm looking at the icom F14, mainly because I carried an ICOM in the old days and I trust the brand.  Does this provide enough functionality?  Seriously, how many channels does a ground team need to talk on?

[Link Removed]

I'll crank my scanner on Monday at 7PM and see which of these is active.  If that works and the radios are not yet encrypted being able to listen may be good enough for now.

[Major Lord]

The Icom F14 probably is not kosher if purchased after January of 2006, as far as CAQP is concerned. It is shown on the list as being "TBD" https://ntc.cap.af.mil/comm/equipment/vhf_list.cfm
I E-mailed Icom about this issue regarding the Icom F30GS and GT's I have, and they assured me that they have been certified as NTIA compliant. CAP probably has just not "officially" been notified yet. The F14 is not an APCO 25 radio, and although I think it has a drop in port for encryption, its unlikely that it would be useful for CAP. If you don't mind dropping a few hundred bucks on a radio that might well be obsolete in a year or two, it is a good radio.

Major Lord

[Custer]

If you don't mind dropping a few hundred bucks on a radio that might well be obsolete in a year or two, it is a good radio.

Major Lord

You talked me out of it.  I'll just get by with a scanner until encryption comes in, at which point privately owned radios will probably be a thing of the past anyway.

[RADIOMAN015]

If you don't mind dropping a few hundred bucks on a radio that might well be obsolete in a year or two, it is a good radio.

Major Lord

You talked me out of it.  I'll just get by with a scanner until encryption comes in, at which point privately owned radios will probably be a thing of the past anyway.

CAP did not buy enough CAI/P25 digital portable radios (opting to buy instead high powered 50 watt mobile/base radios) and are still relying on analog portables for most ground teams.   I don't think encryption is going to be used for all missions anyways, and it's likely that it is only going to be an air to ground (as in mission monitoring base) type limited activity. 

Just carry your portable ham radio with you for "just in case" situations.  There really are much fewer CAP radios around (especially portables with the technical demise of the Vertex 150's), so unless you've got an aircraft flying highbird on a mission/simulated mission you just may not have anyone that can hear you.

BTW I've tried numerous times, when knowing CAP aircraft are in my geographic area (via monitoring FAA air traffic control) & calling  the aircraft on the CAP guard/calling channel and have never gotten a response.  So unless there's a mission/simulated mission it's likely your CAP radio would be virtually useless in an emergency. 

Another option is to look at an airband VHF portable transceiver, which would allow you to operate on 122.9 & 123.10, as well as 121.5 in a real emergency.   IF necessary (emergency only) and you didn't have cellphone coverage you could always call any aircraft on the local ATC frequencies AS A LAST RESORT!!!!
RM

[cap235629]

If you don't mind dropping a few hundred bucks on a radio that might well be obsolete in a year or two, it is a good radio.

Major Lord

You talked me out of it.  I'll just get by with a scanner until encryption comes in, at which point privately owned radios will probably be a thing of the past anyway.

CAP did not buy enough CAI/P25 digital portable radios (opting to buy instead high powered 50 watt mobile/base radios) and are still relying on analog portables for most ground teams.   I don't think encryption is going to be used for all missions anyways, and it's likely that it is only going to be an air to ground (as in mission monitoring base) type limited activity. 

Not in Arkansas.  We have PLENTY of encryption capable portables and we have NO analog only portables issued.  The table of allowances only authorizes 1 portable per ground team to be used by the GTL or designated MRO.  If you work within the system, you can get more than enough equipment to suit your needs.  There is absolutely no reason every GTM needs a VHF portable.  ISR? yes I can see that..

My biggest problem with CAP-COMM is what I call the "Hoarding Syndrome".  Wings with all of the portable repeaters, RDP's and IC kits stored in the Wing Comms locker and not forward deployed in strategic locations throughout the wing.

Our wing DC is on the National Communications team and encryption IS coming and will be REQUIRED on all AFAM's in the very near future.  The hold up has been the training upgrades and repeater installs.  Not all wings have actually changed out all of their repeaters.

[Eclipse]

Thankfully that's not the case for us, either - we actually used th portable repeater recently for encampment, and everything the TOA
will let us give out has been issued.

[cap235629]

I kicked, screamed, hollered and "appropriated" until I finally convinced our wing DC (who became a good friend during the process) to acknowledge that he was a hoarder.  Should have been an episode of "Hoarders" or "Intervention".       

The only bad result?  When I walk through wing HQ I can hear all the doors to supply and comms slam and the air raid sirens start roaring...LOL  :angel:

[Krapenhoeffer]

Stop posting frequencies. 

CAP Frequency information is For Official Use Only, and posting them ANYWHERE can lead to severe disciplinary action.

[Eclipse]

Who's posting CAP frequencies?

[Custer]

Who's posting CAP frequencies?

Nobody on this board, but it only took me 30 seconds with Google to find out what they were.

[Krapenhoeffer]

There was a link posted to a webpage covered in CAP frequencies. CAP frequency information is For Official Use Only, and can only be disclosed to those members authorized by each Wing's Director of Communications. Uploading of frequencies to any radio is to be done by authorized members of a Wing's Comm. Staff.

[cap235629]

Uploading of frequencies to any radio is to be done by authorized members of a Wing's Comm. Staff.

NOPE!  They can be radio technicians working for commercial radio shops as well as comm officers/technicians of anyone we have an MOU with...

[arajca]

To correct a couple points of mis-information in recent posts:
1. The TA provides for TWO VHF portables per GT, not 1. The concept is for the GTL to have one and the other remains with the vehicle driver/radio operator at the vehicle, which has a mobile. The portables are used to communicate between the team and the vehicle while the mobile is used to communicate with base. It is very likely that portables will not have the power to reach base, hence the relay notion.

2. Uploading of frequencies can be done any person, including radio shops, authorized by the wing DC (for members) or by National (non-members and shops). If you need a shop to be approved, contact your wing DC with the information and justification and he can run it up to national. There is a process for this. I have done it several times.

3. In general, CAP does not have analog only portables provided by National. Some mobiles (Tait 2020), but not portables. Some units have purchased or gotten some analog only portable donated.

4. The hold up with encryption is that the repeater change-out is not complete - at least one wing had its repeater plan canned because of changes in site agreements, and has not yet started on the replacement. (They're using tactical repeaters in a few strategic locations on old sites.) IIRC, CAP-USAF is working on the issue of how to manage the keys and get them into and out of radios. Very few CAP members know and appreciate the hassle encryption key management can cause.

[Krapenhoeffer]

Uploading of frequencies to any radio is to be done by authorized members of a Wing's Comm. Staff.

NOPE!  They can be radio technicians working for commercial radio shops as well as comm officers/technicians of anyone we have an MOU with...

Thank you, I forgot about that provision. Nevertheless, unless you're authorized to know the frequencies, you shouldn't know the frequencies. Google is not your friend in this one instance.

[cap235629]

To correct a couple points of mis-information in recent posts:
1. The TA provides for TWO VHF portables per GT, not 1. The concept is for the GTL to have one and the other remains with the vehicle driver/radio operator at the vehicle, which has a mobile. The portables are used to communicate between the team and the vehicle while the mobile is used to communicate with base. It is very likely that portables will not have the power to reach base, hence the relay notion.

I stand corrected, yes the TA is for 2 Hand Helds...

[RADIOMAN015]

Uploading of frequencies to any radio is to be done by authorized members of a Wing's Comm. Staff.

NOPE!  They can be radio technicians working for commercial radio shops as well as comm officers/technicians of anyone we have an MOU with...

Thank you, I forgot about that provision. Nevertheless, unless you're authorized to know the frequencies, you shouldn't know the frequencies. Google is not your friend in this one instance.

As CAP's simplex & repeater channels get utilized, there's a pretty good chance that radio monitoring hobbyists will be listening, especially during simulated/training missions.  It is a reasonable expectation that those findings will get posted somewhere on the internet and even CAP members will be able to find

I personally see no harm in CAP members (especially any member qualified in ANY ES specialty) having radio frequency information to put in their radio scanners (of course they'd have to show me the scanner).  They've all been trained in OPSEC and have signed the non disclosure agreement.

We've become very dependent upon cellphones/mobile data web, internet access, land line phones etc..  If we lose that capability it would be great to have at least our ES qualified members with the capability to receive one way radio emergency information broadcasts.  One way broadcasts are authorized by CAPR 100-3 para 1-4b(5).

I hope to conduct  portable scanner receivers test in my area in the future.   
RM

Also from an OPSEC/COMSEC standpoint, you should ALWAYS assume your unencrypted radio transmissions are being monitored.
RM

[Gung Ho]

To correct a couple points of mis-information in recent posts:
1. The TA provides for TWO VHF portables per GT, not 1. The concept is for the GTL to have one and the other remains with the vehicle driver/radio operator at the vehicle, which has a mobile. The portables are used to communicate between the team and the vehicle while the mobile is used to communicate with base. It is very likely that portables will not have the power to reach base, hence the relay notion.

I stand corrected, yes the TA is for 2 Hand Helds...

So the GTL should have 2 VHF handhelds? Would be nice if thats what they would issue. With the equipment they are handing out and the fact they only want complainant radio I think they figure we will always have cell phones and have no real need for two way radios. Sad but it seems like they are getting like alot of others that think they will always have a cell phone that works. Hope they never have to find out

[Eclipse]

So the GTL should have 2 VHF handhelds? Would be nice if thats what they would issue. With the equipment they are handing out and the fact they only want complainant radio I think they figure we will always have cell phones and have no real need for two way radios. Sad but it seems like they are getting like alot of others that think they will always have a cell phone that works. Hope they never have to find out

The narrowband conversion is in no way related to an assumption by CAP that cell phones will always work.  The narrowband transition was forced sue to spectrum sales in the US, and related activities.

GT's are normally issued 1 HT, 3+ ISR's, and a mobile - more than enough to keep the team in touch with each other and mission base.

If you dig hard enough you will always be able to find a 1% mission where this doesn't meet the need, in which case you either adjust the
deployment or move the equipment around better, however for the vast majority of our operations, this more than meets the needs.

[wuzafuzz]

Our wing DC is on the National Communications team and encryption IS coming and will be REQUIRED on all AFAM's in the very near future.  The hold up has been the training upgrades and repeater installs.  Not all wings have actually changed out all of their repeaters.

Darn, I guess that means we won't be able to use the portable repeaters on AFAM's, since they don't do encryption!

Me thinks we may be required to use encryption on SOME AFAM's, but not all. 

[cap235629]

Our wing DC is on the National Communications team and encryption IS coming and will be REQUIRED on all AFAM's in the very near future.  The hold up has been the training upgrades and repeater installs.  Not all wings have actually changed out all of their repeaters.

Darn, I guess that means we won't be able to use the portable repeaters on AFAM's, since they don't do encryption!

Me thinks we may be required to use encryption on SOME AFAM's, but not all.

The new ones do as they are just that REPEATERS and will handle encryption.

[Eclipse]

The new ones do as they are just that REPEATERS and will handle encryption.

How would a repeater "handle" encryption - the encode / decode is on both ends, not over the air, right?

[cap235629]

The new ones do as they are just that REPEATERS and will handle encryption.

How would a repeater "handle" encryption - the encode / decode is on both ends, not over the air, right?

exactly, the keys are loaded into the mobiles and portables, the voice or data is encrypted by the sending unit, sent digitally using APCO 25 protocols, repeated as the digital signal is just a series of 1's and 0's encrypted or not, and decrypted by the receiving radios.  All of the new portable repeaters are digital APCO 25 standard

[kd8gua]

Unless a repeater has encryption technology built into it,  it will not handle encryption from individual radios. The receiving radios will just hear what sounds like open squelch, even if all radios using the repeater are on the same encryption key. The data stream sent with the encrypted audio signal will be completely ignored by the repeater, therefore the only thing that will be passed is the unencrypted audio (which has the squelch sound).

To add to the OT, I own a Motorola MT 2000 narrowband analog handheld, and a Motorola Astro Spectra P25 digital narrowband mobile.

[cap235629]

To put all this to rest I called my Wing DC.  The new portable repeaters are encryption capable.

If you have any questions, contact your Wing DC or the NTC.

[wuzafuzz]

To put all this to rest I called my Wing DC.  The new portable repeaters are encryption capable.

If you have any questions, contact your Wing DC or the NTC.

Interesting, I was under the impression the repeater itself had to be specifically configured for encryption.  However it makes sense that the encryption is merely embedded within the digital stream.  We don't have encryption keys to play with yet. 

Back on the topic of personal owned radios, I wish we had more member owned radios.  We have an activity this weekend that is coming up short on portables, even after putting out the call for more.     There just aren't enough CAP owned portables to go around. 

[JoeTomasone]

There is a big difference between P25 and encryption.   

[wuzafuzz]

There is a big difference between P25 and encryption.

Understood, but the APCO 25 standard does support the use of encryption, as well as trunking and data.  The question becomes how it works and affects us. 

When encryption is combined with APCO 25 is the audio encrypted before it is modulated into the digital stream?  If so, the digitally modulated signal should pass through a P25 repeater, correct?  Or is the entire signal wrapped in encryption and therefore "invisible" to a standard P25 repeater?  The latter would require a properly equipped repeater to work.

I've never used encryption before, so I am honestly curious.

[SarDragon]

The digital stream is all of the modulation, before it is impressed upon the RF that goes out the antenna. Encryption is usually the final transformation ofn the digital stream before modulation of the RF occurs.

Audio -> A-to-D converter = digital audio stream -> key + exclusive or gate = encrypted audio -> modulator = audio + RF -> antenna

Very simplified, but it's the basic process.

[cap235629]

The digital stream is all of the modulation, before it is impressed upon the RF that goes out the antenna. Encryption is usually the final transformation ofn the digital stream before modulation of the RF occurs.

Audio -> A-to-D converter = digital audio stream -> key + exclusive or gate = encrypted audio -> modulator = audio + RF -> antenna

Very simplified, but it's the basic process.

So yes.

I tried to explain it in laymans terms and was told I was wrong so I gave up

[CAP.is.1337]

I own several NTIA compliant handhelds. If you're looking for the best digital bang for your buck, find a EFJ 5100, Astro Saber, or XTS 3000 with P25 flashcodes. If you're not going to use P25, I'd recommend an HT1000 or MT2000, as those can be had for a song these days.

[aconway]

I have a Motorola XTS5000 VHF and a XTS3000 VHF they are NTIA compliant and they will do P25 and encryption. 

[CAP.is.1337]

I have a Motorola XTS5000 VHF and a XTS3000 VHF they are NTIA compliant and they will do P25 and encryption.

It is important to note that they will only do P25 if properly flashed, (the code must begin with a 1 or 5,) and they will only do CAP-compliant encryption with the proper module and keyloader.

[aconway]

I have a VHF XTS5000 and a XTS2500 they do P25. I also have a base that is a Motorola XTL2500.

[SJFedor]

I have a VHF XTS5000 and a XTS2500 they do P25. I also have a base that is a Motorola XTL2500.

And a lot of money.

[Fubar]

And a lot of money.

Well, he did anyway...