Rank Insignia on BDU Cover

[Shotgun]

According to the January 2008 Change Letter, the ultramarine blue insignia is centered on the BDU hat. However, the associated visual aid  places it it on the lower "rim" just above the bill. (Which frankly looks a off to me.)

My interpretation of centered is equal distance from all of the edges. So "centered" on the BDU" to means having the edges of the patch the same distance from the brim the upper seam.



In effect, I think the picture is not an accurate representation of the placement of the embroidered rank and would like some feedback from the hive mind on the proper placement.

[Hawk200]

The picture is a Photoshop hack job. Just use the placement that the letter directs in writing.

[Eclipse]

"3. BDU Cap. Either the USAF or Army style BDU cap or camouflage BDU baseball cap may be worn with the BDU uniform. Senior members, cadet NCOs and airmen do not wear any type of insignia on the cap. Cadet officers wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2-inch above the visor on the BDU cap. Cap will not be worn crushed or rolled. "

It is centered left/right, but 1/2 inch from the visor, not centered up/down.

Depending on how big your hat is, on most it looks low.  The photo is fairly accurate.

If your next question is "Why?"  The answer is "Because."

[MIKE]

Just for comparison:

3. Officers wear the regular size cloth or subdued metal grade insignia on the BDU cap. Grade
insignia will be centered vertically and horizontally. Colonel grade insignia is worn with the
eagle's beak pointed towards the wearer's right shoulder (indicates the eagle is facing forward).
MAJCOM commanders may authorize wear of the bright non-subdued grade insignia by officers
on BDU caps while in garrison. NOTE: Chaplains may wear chaplains' insignia centered 1/2
inch above visor of BDU cap. General officers wear black stars.

[JC004]

NHQ FAIL.

[rmcmanus]

Yep, unfortunately, the 1/2 inch requirement makes the rank placement low.  I went through this issue thoroughly when the ruling was issued.  Again, the photo is accurate.

[Rotorhead]

Yep, unfortunately, the 1/2 inch requirement makes the rank placement low.  I went through this issue thoroughly when the ruling was issued.  Again, the photo is accurate.

It would help if the photoshop job had accurately represented the size of the insignia. The fact that it is too small makes it tough to gauge the position accurately compared to the real thing in your hands.

[RiverAux]

Might help some, but given that they've given you exact measurements to work with, I don't see it as a big deal.  Probably should be changed to match AF practices when we can. 

[Spike]

^Why would CAP do that?  They never have and never will.  CAP does it's "own thing", and if we accepted guidance from the AF, the Corporate supporters would be on here tearing us all apart!

[RLM10_2_06]

Look at both the regulations stated above.

"Cadet officers (<---look here) wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2-inch above the visor on the BDU cap."

"Officers (<---not CADET officers, senior member officers) wear the regular size cloth or subdued metal grade insignia on the BDU cap. Grade insignia will be centered vertically and horizontally"

I see two completely different regulations being addressed and cited by posters here.

In addition, however, the two regulations DO contradict each other. One says senior members of all kinds wear nothing, the other says that they do. Points to consider:

-What IS the regulation that CAP members would follow? Would it be the Air Force's manual on this, or is there a CAP regulation that has been released that would contradict said manual that is still current?

-Where are quoted regulations coming from? I see no citation for the post by Eclipse (no offense intended); where on earth is this bullet point number 3 coming from? The Imaginary Book of CAP Rules? A citation, or statement on where one finds this kind of thing, would be helpful. Mike clearly labelled that he was posting from AFI36-2903; that can be found and verified.

Just my two cents. I have no idea on the issue, and am too lazy to try to look it up myself

[JC004]

No.  We do not follow the Air Force regulation.  Air Force publications do not apply to us, which the exception of the two CAP Air Force publications, which mostly apply to CAP-USAF and the BoG.

The one says senior members wear nothing because the other is a change letter.

[JayT]

Might help some, but given that they've given you exact measurements to work with, I don't see it as a big deal.  Probably should be changed to match AF practices when we can.

Could that almost be considered modifying the air force uniform? What if CAP wanted to have members to switch the branch and name tapes sides?

[lordmonar]

NHQ FAIL.

+1

I just ignore this rule.   

[RiverAux]

Might help some, but given that they've given you exact measurements to work with, I don't see it as a big deal.  Probably should be changed to match AF practices when we can.

Could that almost be considered modifying the air force uniform? What if CAP wanted to have members to switch the branch and name tapes sides?

Huh?  All I'm saying is that unless there is a good reason not to, CAP's uniform regulations probably should follow the same guidelines as the AF.    If the AF centers their rank on their hats, wouldn't it be a good general practice for us to do the same?  Sure, I imagine that even such a small change would require CAP-USAF concurrence, but so what?  I don't see any logical reason CAP should be doing it differently than the AF in the case of something like this. 

[Shotgun]

Thanks for all the input!

I spent some time messing around with the grade insignia placement on my BDU cap. As mentioned above, the visual aid included in the change letter is definitely a Photoshop hack. Placing my captain bars 1/2 in. above the visor doesn't look nearly as "off" as the insignia in the image. The larger actual size of the patch makes a huge difference. Visually, it still appears a bit low but it is not nearly as noticeable.

The next thing to figure out how to sew the darn thing on with my sewing machine. (I'm not nearly talented enough to do it by hand.)

All in all, most of the time I wear when I wear BDU's to meetings I grab my authorized MSWG baseball cap. However, I'm trying to make it my personal uniform policy to wear the BDU cap when I'm  "in public"  (missions, sarexs, training activities, camp-outs, etc).

Thanks again for all the feedback!

[Hawk200]

The next thing to figure out how to sew the darn thing on with my sewing machine. (I'm not nearly talented enough to do it by hand.)

I sew things by hand because I lack the talent to do it with a sewing machine. It's pretty easy, but it is time consuming (Yes, I added the emphasis for a reason.). Take your time at it, pay attention to where each stitch is in relation to the last one. People that look at my uniforms swear I've done it on a machine, but I don't even have one, and wouldn't be that good with one if I did.

If you're worried about it sliding around, use a small piece of Witch Stich to hold it in place. Key word: small. It's just to hold it in place, not to affix it permanently.

[arajca]

Does your machine have a removable section for doing sleeves? Also, a good way to hold it in place is Stitch Witchery (or any other fusible sewing tape).

Use a metal coffee can with a pot holder between the cap and the can as an ironing surface. Gives you a nice even curved surface with a little padding.

It will take patience to get it right on the machine, but it's doable.

[SarDragon]

Turning the back half of the cap inside out helps a lot, too.

[Stonewall]

[smg id=155]

[SarDragon]

Do over. It's not horizontally centered! 

[Stonewall]

Do over. It's not horizontally centered! 

It is when it's on my head.  Hard to tell when it's sitting there, but yeah, it's on their right.  Took me a few times...hats are NOT easy.  If it were wrong, then a lot of people owe me push-ups for not pointing it out for the year or so I wore it.

[heliodoc]

OOOHH  No

Not  ANOTHER stellar 39-1 NHQ FAIL

How many more aberrations and "stuff is going to be needed to REDO a COMPLETELY overhauled 39-1??

How about just centering on the silly CAP cap or cover?  1/2 inch above the bill is just plain arsed silly...think the Army and RM is only a 1/2 inch above the bill?

Only CAP is special!!

[Spike]

^ See but when your "roll" the cover it looks centered then.  Got to think about who comes up with these changes! 

[DBlair]

Look at both the regulations stated above.

"Cadet officers (<---look here) wear the embroidered grade insignia centered 1/2-inch above the visor on the BDU cap."

"Officers (<---not CADET officers, senior member officers) wear the regular size cloth or subdued metal grade insignia on the BDU cap. Grade insignia will be centered vertically and horizontally"

I see two completely different regulations being addressed and cited by posters here.

In addition, however, the two regulations DO contradict each other. One says senior members of all kinds wear nothing, the other says that they do. Points to consider:

-What IS the regulation that CAP members would follow? Would it be the Air Force's manual on this, or is there a CAP regulation that has been released that would contradict said manual that is still current?

-Where are quoted regulations coming from? I see no citation for the post by Eclipse (no offense intended); where on earth is this bullet point number 3 coming from? The Imaginary Book of CAP Rules? A citation, or statement on where one finds this kind of thing, would be helpful. Mike clearly labelled that he was posting from AFI36-2903; that can be found and verified.

Just my two cents. I have no idea on the issue, and am too lazy to try to look it up myself

(Bold emphasis mine)

Since when have we been able to wear subdued metal grade insignia?

[lordmonar]

(Bold emphasis mine)

Since when have we been able to wear subdued metal grade insignia?

If you re-read his post....he was comparing CAP 39-1 with USAF 36-2903.

Pointing out that the USAF wears their grade centered vertically and horzontaly vice CAP's 1/2" above the bill.

[ßτε]

"Officers (<---not CADET officers, senior member officers) wear the regular size cloth or subdued metal grade insignia on the BDU cap. Grade insignia will be centered vertically and horizontally"

Not senior member officers either, but USAF officers, since the quote is originally from AFI 36-2903. CAP members do not follow AFI 36-2903, but CAPM 39-1 and subsequent ICLs as the case is here.

[DBlair]

"Officers (<---not CADET officers, senior member officers) wear the regular size cloth or subdued metal grade insignia on the BDU cap. Grade insignia will be centered vertically and horizontally"

Not senior member officers either, but USAF officers, since the quote is originally from AFI 36-2903. CAP members do not follow AFI 36-2903, but CAPM 39-1 and subsequent ICLs as the case is here.

Oh, ok. I missed the AF reference.

[Dragon 3-2]

Don't feel bad LT,
I had my dads old silver bars ready to go on my new cover after reading that one lol

[DBlair]

Don't feel bad LT,
I had my dads old silver bars ready to go on my new cover after reading that one lol

Yea, I got kind of excited at the thought that I may have missed an update to the regs allowing this. lol

[Dragon 3-2]

come to think of it...where do we use metal rank as seniors other then the CSU?

my wing lets the TAC's put it on their Black hats for Encampment, but thats about it

[Rotorhead]

come to think of it...where do we use metal rank as seniors other then the CSU?

my wing lets the TAC's put it on their Black hats for Encampment, but thats about it

BBDU hats

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Maybe what CAP really ought to do is ditch the CAPM 39-1 and adopt AFM 36-2903, adding a CAP supplement. We wouldn't be reinventing the wheel, and our standards would raise because the Air Force directive is much more detailed and precise about not only placement and wear, but the do's and don'ts.

[Hawk200]

Maybe what CAP really ought to do is ditch the CAPM 39-1 and adopt AFM 36-2903, adding a CAP supplement. We wouldn't be reinventing the wheel, and our standards would raise because the Air Force directive is much more detailed and precise about not only placement and wear, but the do's and don'ts.

Try an "I" instead of an "M".

Second, a supplement wouldn't be particularly useful. Too many people don't even bother to read 39-1, trying to adopt an AFI would be a nightmare.

What we need is a well written 39-1, supplemented properly when necessary, and re-written after a set number of supplements have been added.

A 39-1 in the same style as 2903 could be practical. But it would require someone at National to actually read 2903. Which I don't see happening anytime soon.

[mynetdude]

[smg id=155]

That looks alittle big??? I use the same one that is put on my BDU collars or is that wrong too?

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Maybe what CAP really ought to do is ditch the CAPM 39-1 and adopt AFM 36-2903, adding a CAP supplement. We wouldn't be reinventing the wheel, and our standards would raise because the Air Force directive is much more detailed and precise about not only placement and wear, but the do's and don'ts.

Try an "I" instead of an "M".

Second, a supplement wouldn't be particularly useful. Too many people don't even bother to read 39-1, trying to adopt an AFI would be a nightmare.

What we need is a well written 39-1, supplemented properly when necessary, and re-written after a set number of supplements have been added.

A 39-1 in the same style as 2903 could be practical. But it would require someone at National to actually read 2903. Which I don't see happening anytime soon.

I stand corrected — thanks. It's Air Force Instruction 36-2903.

Yes, too many people either don't read or ignore CAPM 39-1, but we need to expect more from our people. Surely we're underestimating their intelligence (or overestimating our standards?) if the way to compliance is to dumb down our procedures.

[Hawk200]

Yes, too many people either don't read or ignore CAPM 39-1, but we need to expect more from our people. Surely we're underestimating their intelligence (or overestimating our standards?) if the way to compliance is to dumb down our procedures.

Good point. I think a lot of it could be dealt with when it comes to initial training. Teach people that a uniform is something more than just clothes. I don't think some people realize how important it is.

Of course, it really applies to everything. It could be that many people aren't informed of how important pubs are to how the organization runs. There's also many that don't bother to read. Some expect to be shown everything, don't take the time to do anything on their own.

[mynetdude]

Maybe what CAP really ought to do is ditch the CAPM 39-1 and adopt AFM 36-2903, adding a CAP supplement. We wouldn't be reinventing the wheel, and our standards would raise because the Air Force directive is much more detailed and precise about not only placement and wear, but the do's and don'ts.

I thought the USAF don't like the idea of us wearing similar things they wear? Oh wait, we already do that's called the AF style uniform. They don't want us wearing the metal grade insignias and we have to use cloth, they want us to use different colors but they get to wear their colors.

It seems they want to keep us differentiated so that people will know we aren't the real thing? I looked at the USCG Aux uniforms, they have 12 different uniforms and some of them have variations so I can safely say we aren't the only ones who are required to wear a variant.

[JoeTomasone]

It seems they want to keep us differentiated so that people will know we aren't the real thing?

Correct; the intention is to keep CAP members for being mistaken for USAF personnel while still being identified as being USAF's auxiliary.