California CN Program Obsolete?

[AirAux]

Keep it up Short Field, we do have your Wilson number..

[JC004]

Obviously the title of this thread is entirely misleading, which isn't too surprising.

It should be updated.  It hasn't even been voted on yet, let alone caused an announcement ending the CN/CD program in CAWG.

[lordmonar]

We have junkies holding 7-11s to get the $50 they need to buy their drugs.  Legal drug will be much cheaper reducing the need for junkies to result to this level of crime.

I agree with just about everything but this. Generally people who are that desperate are hooked on something like meth or crack.

Yes I agree....but that brings up a good point.  We throw a lot of people into the pigeon hole "Drug user".  We say....pot is a drug and there are gang wars, prostitution, crime,  murder...et al related to "drugs" but when you break it down to the different sub categories.......Pot is way down on the scale of being a "bad" drug.

But....just for the record....I am a strong advocate of legalizing all drugs....for more or less the same reason I would like to see pot legalized.

It is not that I advocate that everyone should be out using it....it is bad for you....but so are a lot of other legal substances and activities.

We as a society don't seem to want to hold the drug user accountable for his actions....(a casual drug users hardly get any punishment at all) so we attack the source and supply lines instead.

But at the same time we don't seem to want to really spend the money to really make the supply and transportation lines too expensive.

And those are the only two ways you can win the war on drugs.  You either have to attack the demand side of the problem....i.e. making it too risky to even try to get away with it.  Or you attack the supply side of the problem making the end product too expensive for the users to afford.

So...IMHO we don't have the political/moral will to do enough on either side of the war....the Cartels throw more money at the problem then we are willing to throw at it...and they still make a profit.

The only sensible option IMHO is to accept defeat in the War on Drugs.  Accept that we will have to live with the direct effects drugs have on our people (DUIs, health problems, "Drug-oholism" and the like....but attack all the indirect affect of the drug problem (users crime to raise the money, prostitution to get drugs, drug dealer territory wars, pedaling to children to secure a demand, etc).

We legalise them, make strong laws that make DUI a MAJOR offense, we let companies and organisations who don't want drug users (the military for example) able to do the testing they need to do.  We make giving any drug to a minor a very very serious offense.

This will allow business to produce their drugs cheaply because they don't have to spend all the money it takes to pay bribes, protection, threaten people, modify shipping containers and all the other things that they do to counter act our efforts to catch them.  Quality and consistency of the product can be controlled and regulated reducing the incidences of accidental overdose.  It becomes a tax source reducing the deficit and/or funding anti-drug programs.  We save the billions we spend on the war on drugs that we can use to reduce the deficit and/or spend on other programs.

[lordmonar]

Pot is a gateway drug because you buy it from the same people who are pushing the hard drugs.

The argument about gateway drugs is a causal fallacy on par with the "most pilots who crash failed to file a flight plan" mantra we hear all the time.

Yes....almost to a man, all hard drug users used pot first.  But I bet they used alcohol before that....where is the out cry about that being a gateway drug?  I wonder how many hard drug users also smoked tobacco?  Is that a gateway drug as well?  What about caffeine?  Sugar? 

Using one drug does not mean that you will use another. 

[Short Field]

Keep it up Short Field, we do have your Wilson number..

And your Wilson number is?  If you feel froggy, jump.

"The War on Drugs isn't winnable, but it's fundable...It's not only the Drug Enforcement Administration's nearly $20 billion annual budget but government agencies of every kind receive extra funding for drug enforcement..."  Judge JP Gray

It would be nice if we had a drug policy that was actually having an impact on the flow of drugs into this country.  The drug cartels have reach the point in Mexico that they don't fear the government and have started targeting US officials along the border. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

We can usually tell the Pot Smoker, because he is the one standing around laughing while looking at the car full of people he just killed.

I've never seen or heard of anyone being that high on weed. Please cite.

I do like the idea of California defying the overreaching of the Federal Government,

So the constitution is only good when it protects the second amendment?

but your view of prisons filled with harmless marijuana smokers is just.......inaccurate. Prisons for the most part are filled with two major groups of people: The stupid and the evil, with a heavy intersection fitting both categories.

What is the limit in most states? 28 grams? I know people who get more than that, but all for personal use. If they get busted, that just means that they go to jail for "intent to distribute".

but denying that Marijuana is a gateway drug is just ridiculous.

Already been said, but what about tobacco and alcohol? Most people who try pot as teenagers tried cigarettes and alcohol first. 

Although most people who smoked Dope did not become Heroin addicts, I have never met a heroin addict who did not make his transition to illegal drugs through the gateway of Marijuana.

Pot must be rare in Europe (it's not). I've known plenty of people who did heroin with no interest in pot.

(Note: we can also tell you dope smoker guys because lots of you wear bras...)

How many people end up with that out of 1000 casual pot smokers?

Just don't ask me to pay for it, or ask to drive a car with an altered brain.

That's why we have DWUI. Next time you think about having a few beers, please cut up your DL, thanks!

I would really appreciate it if you would stop promoting and encouraging and justifying the use of illegal drugs..

I haven't seen anyone here promote, encourage or justify. Please quote me ONE example. Oh wait, here's one: Cancer patients.

If I have to, I will call our National Commander and get you all in trouble..

Thank you for the warning mother dearest.

P.S. edits aren't working...

[Майор Хаткевич]

P.S.

I can't edit my post...it wont accept the removal of the last [/quote]

[AirAux]

Would you care to explain to me how your statement "But honestly, I know plenty of folks who smoke weed, and it really is no worse for them than cigarettes." doesn't promote, encourage or justify the usage of marijuana?  At the bare minumum it minimizes the impact pot has on the human body and let's cadets know that at least one senior member endorses pot as safe as cigarettes..  You are equating a legal, although unhealthy item to that of an illegal item.  A cadet will not go to jail and lose future rights due to carrying cigarettes, but they sure can carrying pot.  Seriously, have you looked at your posts?  You, as a senior member, should be ashamed of yourself.  If you were in my chain of command, we would have a talk about discretion and public media places.. Your personal opinions are yours, but not necessarily in uniform or when holding yourself out as a member of CAP..  PS, I just realized that you are a cadet Captain.  Double shame on you.  You certainly have no authority to be airing public opinions about drugs that are contrary to our program doctrine..  Now, if you were in my chain of command, we would be talking serious discipline time.  You have younger cadets you are supposed to be setting an example for..  I am going to keep my eye on you..

[wingnut55]

if you smoke Pot and get caught driving, flying, you will go to jail.  working in medical fields, factory work, just about any company will fire you and if you cause an injury you will go to Jail.

I work with kids in Prison and I am here to tell you: You are DEAD wrong about the short term and Long term effects of "POT". It is causing a great deal of psychiatric damage to these kids both psychological and physiological.

But hey people are correct about this forum should not be a place for CAP members to discuss something where some of us risk our lives combating.

40,000 killed in Mexico  DRUG gangs  and pot is one of those drugs.

Terrorist groups are funding their activities through Drugs sales, so you should consider the facts. Not the crap from NORML or your stoned stupid friends.   

[Pylon]

Not according to the DEA, which says states can't legalize pot.

For what it's worth, there's a standing Executive Order from the President directing federal agents and agencies not to pursue or prosecute individuals who are growing/selling/using marijuana under provisions set by state laws.  So while the federal law may very well technically trump the state laws, the feds are not getting into that quagmire at this time.

[raivo]

Discussion is a good thing. Not all laws are fair, rational, or responsible - it would be a rather sad state of affairs for democracy if we stopped debating the wisdom of the various laws of the land, simply because they are laws. (See: health-care reform.) The DoD is currently in the process of considering whether the Don't-Ask-Don't-Tell policy (which has its origins in an outright ban dating from the days of the Continental Army) has a negative or positive effect on the armed forces. Just because something has been the status quo for a long time, doesn't necessarily mean it's correct.

That said, despite the rather petulant way in which certain members have chosen to point it out, I have to agree that this particular public forum is not the place for that kind of discussion.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Would you care to explain to me how your statement "But honestly, I know plenty of folks who smoke weed, and it really is no worse for them than cigarettes." doesn't promote, encourage or justify the usage of marijuana? 

Cigarettes are bad for your health. So is Pot. But the "reefer madness" view of it I have never seen.

40,000 killed in Mexico  DRUG gangs  and pot is one of those drugs.

And if it's not a profitable venture, then it falls off that list, no?

[Hawk200]

Cigarettes are bad for your health. So is Pot. But the "reefer madness" view of it I have never seen.

Never seen the movie myself, nor had any inclination to even look for it. That being said, I don't see how people can use the stuff. The odor is disgustingly nauseating to me.

As to the original post, has there been any official word on the CN program being terminated, or is it just speculation? Grass ain't the only stuff out there to be looking for.

[FARRIER]

I saw the movie, its a joke. If you based your view entirely on this movie, you need your head examined. I got a better  lesson from a narcotics cop, when he came to our high school (this was over 20 years ago).

USAFAux2004 is right in the point some of these post are hypocritical. For us to have an honest discussion, how many of us smoked a cigarette at one time or drank a beer, even just one.

The one thing missing in this discussion is marijuana's use medicanally. There are people in chronic pain, already using prescription pain killers. Some may move over due to cost or the effect it has. It isn't just the 18 and under crowd.

Cigarettes are bad for your health. So is Pot. But the "reefer madness" view of it I have never seen.

Never seen the movie myself, nor had any inclination to even look for it. That being said, I don't see how people can use the stuff. The odor is disgustingly nauseating to me.

As to the original post, has there been any official word on the CN program being terminated, or is it just speculation? Grass ain't the only stuff out there to be looking for.

[Major Lord]

I think the idea that California's legalization of pot will cut down the Mexican Drug importation is in error. There is nothing agricultural that can't be made more cheaply in Mexico than the US, and once Cannabis Sativa is legal in California, it allows a greater number of routes for interstate smuggling of Pot to other States. Since it will be untaxed, and of unregulated potency and content, free-market forces suggest that Mexican drug lords will take full advantage of the situation. Domestic gangs will be able to have legal access to unlimited amounts to be sold across our Washington, Oregon, Nevada, borders, and via our great big Pacific Ocean, all over the free and not so free world. If we can't be part of the solution, by god, lets be part of the problem!

Will Obamacare cover medical marijuana? Doc Breedlove, if you are out there, can I have a "prescription" for dope for foot fungus?

Major Lord

[a2capt]

I think the intent of the thread title was in a "by the will of the people, should the the ballot measure get passed, that the program would be (effectively) terminated", but I don't agree.

If 25 sq. ft is the limit, there will always be someone to push it. The program, the laws, in general, everything would have to evolve with it.

I'm also of the opinion that the whole medical marijuana thing is just a huge joke. Sure, get high, feel no pain. Get high on anything and feel no pain.  The ads in the local free tabloid are amazing. Free dime bags, "free first time discount", easy approval!, doctors on site now! ... the whole thing is just a huge joke.

[Major Lord]

A2capt,

I would have to agree with you for the most part. The efficacy of treating Glaucoma with Pot has been blown out of the water, although I think in terminal diseases involving wasting through nausea and malnutrition, there is some benefit over just conventional drugs ( Compazine, Reglan, etc.) I don't think we should deny terminal patients anything that helps, but clearly, the "legalization " of medical marijuana was a "gateway" to legalizing recreational use. One thing I know about drug users, is that they are the most ardent and well motivated liars in the world. I wonder if the POTUS, an admitted user of Marijuana, has decided to ignore the laws of the United States to promote his agenda.....nahh, that couldn't happen......

Anyway, CAP's search for relevance should probably look beyond CN, an area we are only tangentially  involved in anyway. Its not going to pay the bills.

Major Lord

[Майор Хаткевич]

A2capt,

I would have to agree with you for the most part. The efficacy of treating Glaucoma with Pot has been blown out of the water, although I think in terminal diseases involving wasting through nausea and malnutrition, there is some benefit over just conventional drugs ( Compazine, Reglan, etc.) I don't think we should deny terminal patients anything that helps, but clearly, the "legalization " of medical marijuana was a "gateway" to legalizing recreational use. One thing I know about drug users, is that they are the most ardent and well motivated liars in the world. I wonder if the POTUS, an admitted user of Marijuana, has decided to ignore the laws of the United States to promote his agenda.....nahh, that couldn't happen......

Anyway, CAP's search for relevance should probably look beyond CN, an area we are only tangentially  involved in anyway. Its not going to pay the bills.

Major Lord

POTUS Used marijuana, he is not a user. It's not like President Bush made cocaine legal either.

[Flying Pig]

If you think legalizing all drugs will make the problem go away, you are living in a fantasy world.  Marijuana....ehhhhhh, OK, although addicting, I will submit it is no where near the hard stuff.  However, it is becoming highly addicting because of the cloning and engineering being dont on it. I have seen weed plants that literally have sticky crystals and sap forming on the buds because of the content.
As far as marijuana being a "gateway drug"?  Yes it is.  I prefer to call it a "boundry drug."  In our society, we have social boundries.  People use alcohol and cigarettes because it is socially acceptable.  Has been for years.  In our society, marijuana is that psychological line in the sand for most people that they are not willing to cross. It is the gate or the boundry you make a decision to pass and after you have crossed that line, society considers you a drug user and you consider yourself a drug user whether you want to be honest with yourself or not.  When someone asks you if you have ever used drugs, your answer is "Yes."  Even if it was only once. However, if you are a cigarette smoker, or alcohol drinker and someone asks you if you have ever used drugs, you would answer "No."
When we legalize marijuana, where will the new line be then?  If we legalize all drugs, where does that boundry move to?  Moving in and among these circles, Im not really prepared to see where or what that new line is nor am I prepared to deal with the lowest form of society being allowed to determine that line.  Because its about us over here moving to meet them over there.  I dont see anyone working to actually raise the standards.

Ive worked Narcotics, Gangs, and I am a Federal and Superior Court recognized expert on the sale, transportation and use of illegal drugs, so I guess I have a different take.....
Meth, cocaine, heroin and other hard drugs need to stay illegal simply because they are bad and wrong.  Yes, thats my 3rd grade view of it.   These drugs are not victimless crimes.  The meth addict you see today scratching themselves until they have open sores, walking around twitching and stealing your stuff, neglecting their children and screaming at passing cars will be the same meth/crack/heroin addict you will see if its illegal.  Drug users do not ration their addiction.  They don't save their money for a rainy day for when the price may go up and when they get their drugs, they use it.  All of it.

They will continue to steal, rob and hurt people to get the money to buy more.  And after they have bought more, the cycle begins again.  Making it illegal takes away the tool to discourage its use in the first place, and making it illegal takes away the ability to combat the root cause of a majority of the crimes committed.  Fraud, Identity Theft, Auto Theft, Child abuse and neglect almost always, if you do your research, have a root in illegal drug use and trafficking.  And by suggesting that legalizing it will stop it, you are wrong.  Sure you could tax it, but all of your other crimes will start going through the roof because the by-product of drug abuse and the effect it has on your body doesn't go away because a law made it legal.  Believe me, drug abuse is far from being a victimless crime.

As far as the cartels.  It will do nothing except increase the supply.  They, nor any other dealer will stand by and allow a store to open up in their neighborhood.  Buying it legally will cost more and create a tax that tweekers will not pay.  The cartels will find another drug, make it stronger, and undercut the market price.  Most people making the decision to legalize drugs approach it with the view that "people can do what they want just don't bother me."  The customer base for the Heroin trade is not made up of people who will walk down to the store and get a dime bag.  Do we hold vendors liable for when their customer OD's on heroin?  The store owner who is probably a tweeker himself, should he have had the ability and the mental capacity to tell his fellow hype he has had enough?  Thats what people don't get, they NEVER have enough.  The more you use, the more your body needs to sustain the high or keep you from getting violently sick.
And what happens when you get a customer who doesn't have the money?  Do you think he's going to take "No" for an answer when he is in the onset of withdrawl's and knows he is about to become violently ill? 
The sale of drugs is based on greed. Plain and simple.  The type of person who decides to open up a heroin store is not the type of person who decides to open a florist or an auto repair facility.

Will kids immediately start using illegal drugs because its legal?  Not initially.  But as society begins to accept it, yes they will because their are no longer any consequences.  In my literally thousands of narcotics related arrests, I have never met an addict who had that plan for their life.  All of them started just wanting to see what it was like.   From talking with kids and teenagers many do not have a real idea of what drugs ultimately do to their bodies.  Most are still indestructible and believe they have the ability to just try it and then stop when they are ready.  So with the mindset of believing they can stop, what keeps most kids from using drugs is the view society has on drug users and above all, the fear of getting caught.  And that fear of the consequences is what keeps the lid on the pot (no pun intended).  When it becomes legal, over time it will become acceptable.

Fighting drugs is expensive.  But its the drugs, legal or illegal, that are the root cause of a majority of our problems.  Embracing evil for tax dollars is not a winning deal for anyone.  Nothing will change except that we will have tax dollars and no way to combat the crimes at their root.  All the dope addicts you see around now, the only thing that will change is that the cops will drive right past them.  When our primary justification is revenue and cost, we are headed for major issues.  Im not looking to live in a world where right and wrong are determined by the price tag.

[Eclipse]

POTUS Used marijuana, he is not a user. It's not like President Bush made cocaine legal either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationalization_(psychology)

In psychology and logic, rationalization (or making excuses) is the process of constructing a logical justification for a belief, decision, action or lack thereof that was originally arrived at through a different mental process. It is a defense mechanism in which perceived controversial behaviors or feelings are explained in a rational or logical manner to avoid the true explanation of the behavior or feeling in question. It is also an informal fallacy of reasoning.