Quote from: CyBorg on January 27, 2014, 01:37:08 AM
Return the AF-style uniform to pre-1990s configuration (blue rank slides, metal grade, CAP on collar lapels, blue nameplate for all).

May I offer a small caveat to that suggestion my good Staff Captain?

Do Like the USCGAux does with their superimposed "A" on all pin-on metal grade insignia; add a superimposed "CAP" in red/maroon enamel (same as the "Berry Board" color) on all metal pin on grades and on the shoulder boards embroider a "CAP" on the rank and/or outline/border the rank in the same red/maroon color.

Here's a picture as an example.



The top one is a collar pin and the the bottom one is for an outer coat's shoulder strap. Plenty of room to add a "C" and a "P" on either side of the "A".

Hopefully that would be enough of a difference to make Ma Blue happy.

Also the concept of a different color nameplate is  a somewhat common practice to differentiate between the actual military and their auxiliaries and adjunct forces (i.e. State Guards, State Defense Forces, State and Territorial Militias).

CAP currently uses Grey, USCGAux uses White, most SDFs use Bright Red, so I can't see Ma Blue signing off on a Blue nameplate.

I say keep the Grey one or adopt a red/maroon colored one that would match the the superimposed "CAP" and/or border color I outlined above.   

Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2014, 08:36:01 PM
Clearly and pointless.

Maybe, but until the rank-and-file of CAP get a real say in what they want their uniform to look like... it is what it is.

At least CAPTalk offers a forum to vent their frustrations and expound on their ideas.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2014, 08:36:01 PM
Clearly and pointless.

Haven't you been commenting as well.

Quote from: VNY on January 29, 2014, 09:19:00 PM

Quote from: Storm Chaser on January 29, 2014, 05:18:31 PMThat's true to an extend. The polo shirt with gray pants is a work uniform, but not a field uniform. It should not be worn in field conditions, such as doing ground search and rescue in the wilderness.

You wouldn't wear a flight suit for that either.  In no way did I mean to say the polo could be the ONLY work uniform, though a lot of people match it up with grey tac pants and use it that way.

I never said you did. But many members DO believe these uniforms are equivalent and want to do field work wearing the polo uniform. In fact, I've personally seen members go to the field wearing polos and/or get qualified as GTM3, without owning a set of BDUs or BBDUs. The Task Guide is clear that one of these field uniforms IS required (O-0001).

Quote from: Storm Chaser on January 30, 2014, 08:52:49 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on January 30, 2014, 08:36:01 PM
Clearly and pointless.

Haven't you been commenting as well.

Yes, and I said as much.

A drive-by troll crops the same nonsense, then the same tired discussions start until it's locked or runs out of gas, again.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on January 30, 2014, 08:52:49 PMThe Task Guide is clear that one of these field uniforms IS required (O-0001).

Unless you live in California, where you CAN'T use either one.

Quote from: shuman14 on January 30, 2014, 08:45:27 PM
Maybe, but until the rank-and-file of CAP get a real say in what they want their uniform to look like... it is what it is.

Which, realistically, will not happen.  If the rank-and-file of CAP were listened to on uniform matters, chances are we would still have the CSU, but that is water over the dam unfortunately.

Quote from: shuman14 on January 30, 2014, 08:45:27 PM
At least CAPTalk offers a forum to vent their frustrations and expound on their ideas.

And when it comes down to it, really, that is all CT is - a forum provided for us by someone else's generosity.

As to your idea...something broadly similar was trialled back when we lost metal grade.  A maroon epaulette "ring" with "CAP" embroidered on it was worn above the grade insignia.  It did not last long, and, by most accounts I have heard (I never saw one) looked goofy.

http://incountry.us/cappatches/RANK-OFC/history/circlets.pdf



Your suggestions are imaginative, but no way are we ever going to get metal grade back again.

My squadron CC back then, who later became a Wing CC and was good friends with Brigadier General Richard Anderson (then-CAP CC) told me that he and General Anderson had a conversation on the subject (just before we got the grey epaulette sleeves).  He said the General told him "CAP will never get metal grade back."

^^^^^

CyBorg, I hear you and feel you, but it always begs the question, what did CAP do to lose that privilege?

"Someone" here told me that the whole trolling for salutes thing was an urban legend, so what was it that lost CAP it's metal rank, blue rank slides and blue nameplate? 

100 miles of bad road on Vimeo

^^^^^

Quote from: shuman14 on January 31, 2014, 02:17:23 AM
"Someone" here told me that the whole trolling for salutes thing was an urban legend, so what was it that lost CAP it's metal rank, blue rank slides and blue nameplate? 

Sometimes all it takes is urban legend if it reaches the right ears and they believe it.

Either that, or there was one bad apple who was at the wrong place at the wrong time and caught the attention of somebody high up, who decided to punish everybody for the misdeeds of one.

FWIW, the polo shirt comes in a long sleeve version, and the fabric is a little heavier (and warmer).

Quote from: sarmed1 on January 30, 2014, 07:50:07 PM

Quote from: Panache on January 30, 2014, 03:30:47 PM
Is there a mile run for active-duty USAF?  Just curious.

1.5 run actually.....

Aaah.  Thank you.

Quote from: Panache on January 31, 2014, 04:27:56 AM

Quote from: shuman14 on January 31, 2014, 02:17:23 AM
"Someone" here told me that the whole trolling for salutes thing was an urban legend, so what was it that lost CAP it's metal rank, blue rank slides and blue nameplate? 

Sometimes all it takes is urban legend if it reaches the right ears and they believe it.

Either that, or there was one bad apple who was at the wrong place at the wrong time and caught the attention of somebody high up, who decided to punish everybody for the misdeeds of one.

Everybody has their "factual" case of why we lost our metal and blue. I still don't know beyond the urban legends, half-truths, and suppositions.

The fact is that the USAF told CAP to change.

Anything else is irrelevant.

The Blue BDU Cap is still authorized metal grade insignia.  Both in the Current and the Draft uniform regulations.

Quote from: shuman14 on January 31, 2014, 02:17:23 AM
^^^^^

CyBorg, I hear you and feel you, but it always begs the question, what did CAP do to lose that privilege?

"Someone" here told me that the whole trolling for salutes thing was an urban legend, so what was it that lost CAP it's metal rank, blue rank slides and blue nameplate? 

I will tell you, as briefly as possible (for the benefit of others here who know the story/rumour/innuendo innumerable times).

1.  I joined CAP in September 1993.
2.  My squadron was wearing the maroon rank slides but we still had some of the blue ones in our inventory.
3.  I asked why.
4. The then-CC referenced above told me this, and these are as close a distillation of his words as I remember after 20 years:

"There have been a few incidents where people in CAP tried to exercise authority they did not have.  A former National Commander 'promoted' himself to two-star rank without Air Force approval.  A few CAP people have tried to dress down senior Air Force NCO's for not rendering proper military courtesy to them, which they are not obligated to do.  The Air Force decided its Auxiliary needed to be 'put in its place' and made to look different to them."

My then-deputy CC, who had been an active duty Air Force officer, corroborated the story.  She also offered some delightful suggestions as to what she would like to happen to the CAP personnel whose misbehaviour prompted the Air Force to act as they did.

This is an old CT thread on the topic.

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=11081.0

I was not there; however, virtually everyone I know who was in CAP at that time corroborates this story.

As I said earlier, my former CC went on to become a wing commander and held a regional position for a long time.  Almost his entire life was spent in CAP (he had been in since he was a cadet, and I do not think he had any breaks in service).  I have never had any reason to doubt him.

That is all I know.

Quote from: SARDOC on January 31, 2014, 04:22:16 PM
The Blue BDU Cap is still authorized metal grade insignia.  Both in the Current and the Draft uniform regulations.

Which is something I do not understand.  Metal grade is forbidden in all cases but one.

Quote from: CyBorg on February 01, 2014, 05:46:15 AM

Quote from: SARDOC on January 31, 2014, 04:22:16 PM
The Blue BDU Cap is still authorized metal grade insignia.  Both in the Current and the Draft uniform regulations.

Which is something I do not understand.  Metal grade is forbidden in all cases but one.

I don't understand it either.   The fact that this still survives through multiple iterations of the Regulation, makes me wonder if the Air Force isn't completely opposed to the Metal grade?!? 

I would have thought that when the Air Force took issue with it that they would have barred it completely.  It makes me think, that what we know to be the allegations mentioned, aren't real at all.

I remember the blue slides and metal insignias, although I never wore them as a senior member. When I became a senior member, I wore the maroon slides briefly, before converting to the gray ones. While I do prefer the blue ones, I have no problems with the gray ones. They look good enough in my opinion. What I don't like, however, is the gray slides on the the service dress epaulets. They just don't look right.

I would gladly give up the U.S. cutouts for the C.A.P. ones and any other distinctive insignia or patch (wing patch, anyone?), if it meant getting rid of the slides on the service dress coat and going back to metal grade insignias. That said, it's been 20+ years since the change. So the odds of it changing now are slim at best.

Then again, we have to wonder if this has been brought up by the CAP brass in recent years and the Air Force said no. Or maybe the CAP brass just doesn't want to stir the pot on this issue. It's possible that the current Air Force leadership may not even remember that CAP wore blue slides and metal grade insignias over 20 years ago. It may be a non-issue to them, but we will never know for sure until we ask.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on February 01, 2014, 06:50:29 PM
I remember the blue slides and metal insignias, although I never wore them as a senior member. When I became a senior member, I wore the maroon slides briefly, before converting to the gray ones. While I do prefer the blue ones, I have no problems with the gray ones. They look good enough in my opinion. What I don't like, however, is the gray slides on the the service dress epaulets. They just don't look right.

I would gladly give up the U.S. cutouts for the C.A.P. ones and any other distinctive insignia or patch (wing patch, anyone?), if it meant getting rid of the slides on the service dress coat and going back to metal grade insignias. That said, it's been 20+ years since the change. So the odds of it changing now are slim at best.

I personally have no problem with grey slides on any uniform that is supposed to have slide on rank.  On the service coat they look like a mistake.  However I am of the opinion that nothing is going to make the current service coat look good anyway, so no big loss there either.

Quote from: SARDOC on February 01, 2014, 05:55:10 AM
I would have thought that when the Air Force took issue with it that they would have barred it completely.  It makes me think, that what we know to be the allegations mentioned, aren't real at all.

Perhaps the reason is because it is just one item of headgear that is CAP-distinctive and bears no relation to any extant Air Force uniform.  Other than that, I am quite bemused myself.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on February 01, 2014, 06:50:29 PM
I wore the maroon slides briefly, before converting to the gray ones.

When I joined we still had the leftover blue nameplates.  I wore maroon slides as a 2nd Lt and a 1st Lt.  As soon as the grey ones became available, I trashed my maroon ones.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on February 01, 2014, 06:50:29 PM
What I don't like, however, is the gray slides on the the service dress epaulets. They just don't look right.

Agreed, but almost anything looks better than those horrid maroon slides did.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on February 01, 2014, 06:50:29 PM
I would gladly give up the U.S. cutouts for the C.A.P. ones and any other distinctive insignia or patch (wing patch, anyone?), if it meant getting rid of the slides on the service dress coat and going back to metal grade insignias.

:clap: :clap:

I have often thought of the metal seal used on the mess dress.  It would not look out of place, would not be hard to affix, and would be "us."  I also thought of the brushed-silver nameplate that went with the CSU (I still have one but never got to wear it) that said "CIVIL AIR PATROL" on it, or wear the same blue nameplate that the cadets wear and that we used to wear.  I am not that attached to the silver nameplate.

I have also thought of blue slides with CAP embroidered on them for both the AF shirt and the service coat.  If one cannot read "CAP," that is not a distinctiveness problem, it is a literacy problem.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on February 01, 2014, 06:50:29 PM
That said, it's been 20+ years since the change. So the odds of it changing now are slim at best.

You are quite probably correct; plus there are so many in CAP now who do not remember that we had them, and there are those who do who would carp "it's just change for the sake of change."  Many CAP members I know of are very status-quo people.

Quote from: Storm Chaser on February 01, 2014, 06:50:29 PM
Then again, we have to wonder if this has been brought up by the CAP brass in recent years and the Air Force said no. Or maybe the CAP brass just doesn't want to stir the pot on this issue. It's possible that the current Air Force leadership may not even remember that CAP wore blue slides and metal grade insignias over 20 years ago. It may be a non-issue to them, but we will never know for sure until we ask.

Both are possible, but I think your assertion that the CAP brass doesn't want to stir the pot is far more likely.  There seems to be a mentality that had faded, but came back full-force with the CSU debacle, that anything involving changing the status quo will tick off the Air Force, which is illogical.

So I doubt the question will ever be asked.