With the Airman Battle Uniform, are we going to be required to wear the green suede boots? Or are we going to stick to our black combat boots.
It is presumable that we will adopt the same green boots as the Air Force.
There is already a huge thread on ABUs...
Sorry Mods - Have to add......
It is my hope and wish that CAP makes a move on the BDU / ACU / ABU issue soon. That way we can move forward on this issue before BDU's become obsolete. And yes I know they will still be made by someone else.....
Quote from: CadetProgramGuy on June 02, 2008, 03:58:07 AM
Sorry Mods - Have to add......
It is my hope and wish that CAP makes a move on the BDU / ACU / ABU issue soon. That way we can move forward on this issue before BDU's become obsolete. And yes I know they will still be made by someone else.....
So you'd rather jump the gun?
Many of the cadets in my unit buy their uniforms from local surplus stores.........the only ABU items I've seen in them are the sand colored tee shirts, which I believe are shared with the ACU to.
Quote from: JThemann on June 02, 2008, 12:51:18 PM
So you'd rather jump the gun?
Many of the cadets in my unit buy their uniforms from local surplus stores.........the only ABU items I've seen in them are the sand colored tee shirts, which I believe are shared with the ACU to.
It's not CAP as much as it is the Air Force that would make the decision about when we are allowed to start wearing ABUs. And when that time comes most likely it won't be an immediate phase out of the BDUs. It will take at least a year or two to accomplish.
It is the Air Forces decision as to when CAP get's to wear the ABU's. Usually when a new uniform is authorized there is a phase in period of 1-2 years before it's mandatory for all. So when All Airmen are equipped with the ABU's or at the end of the phase in. CAP may get the ok.
CAP has to formally request the new uniform.
To do that, they have to finalize all the questions and options regarding grade wear, patches, tape color, and which of the uniform parts we would be allowed to wear.
2010-2011 is my guess when they will be close to a design they can submit.
2015+ before we see everyone in anything different.
For the record, I'm against it. BDU's are fine, plentiful, and fit the needs. At the rate the majority of CAP members wear their uniforms, most of us will be retiring serviceable (if not like-new) uniforms to go to ABUs, even in 2015. I've been in almost 9 years, and the BDU's I bought year one are still in more-than usable condition, though I've replaced them a couple times "because".
If anything we should move to a single, standard, uniform for all - the blue would be fine since we have it already, but I'd suggest a dark gray with white on gray tapes.
Corporate, so we can do with it what we want (mostly), standard so we all look the same, and appropriate to the mission.
I like the idea of gray BDU's and keeping the service dress uniform (blues) to show we are still the axillary of the airforce.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 02, 2008, 02:35:13 PM
CAP has to formally request the new uniform.
To do that, they have to finalize all the questions and options regarding grade wear, patches, tape color, and which of the uniform parts we would be allowed to wear.
2010-2011 is my guess when they will be close to a design they can submit.
2015+ before we see everyone in anything different.
For the record, I'm against it. BDU's are fine, plentiful, and fit the needs. At the rate the majority of CAP members wear their uniforms, most of us will be retiring serviceable (if not like-new) uniforms to go to ABUs, even in 2015. I've been in almost 9 years, and the BDU's I bought year one are still in more-than usable condition, though I've replaced them a couple times "because".
If anything we should move to a single, standard, uniform for all - the blue would be fine since we have it already, but I'd suggest a dark gray with white on gray tapes.
Corporate, so we can do with it what we want (mostly), standard so we all look the same, and appropriate to the mission.
The Air Force has already made it clear that we will be wearing the ABU. There is no question of "if" we will. It is a question "when". And BDU's won't always be plentiful. How many times have we already stated that we can't find them when we AAFES? Heck even at some of the local Army Navy Stores I go to don't have that many BDU's in stock any more. Soon we won't be able to find them at all.
Quote from: Orion Pax on June 02, 2008, 02:48:23 PM
The Air Force has already made it clear that we will be wearing the ABU.
Cite please.
Quote from: Orion Pax on June 02, 2008, 02:48:23 PM
And BDU's won't always be plentiful. How many times have we already stated that we can't find them when we AAFES? Heck even at some of the local Army Navy Stores I go to don't have that many BDU's in stock any more. Soon we won't be able to find them at all.
AAFES is a supplier services which no longer wears woodland camo. As a uniform source for CAP members its use is so small as to be statistically insignificant.
NAVEx's and other MCSS outlets still have them in LOTS of supply, as do about a gabillion other sources.
I absolutely 100% guarantee that the decision to transition to a different uniform, whatever that might be, will be made in advance of it being any significant supply issue for CAP members.
At least lets authorize boots other than black combat?!?!
I didn't think CAP was authorized to shop at NAVEX for uniforms? I am, but that is beside the point.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 02, 2008, 02:35:13 PM
If anything we should move to a single, standard, uniform for all - the blue would be fine since we have it already, but I'd suggest a dark gray with white on gray tapes.
Dark gray works well for the "cool" factor but does nothing for Search and Rescue visibiliity.
Quote from: MIKE on June 02, 2008, 04:25:08 PM
I didn't think CAP was authorized to shop at NAVEX for uniforms? I am, but that is beside the point.
Mike, you're right as a CAP Members we're not. But our associations to other branches could give some those privilages.
Quote from: Orion Pax on June 02, 2008, 04:28:30 PM
Mike, you're right as a CAP Members we're not. But our associations to other branches could give some those privilages.
I've seen situations where CGEX and NAVEX contacted AAFES to see what priviliges we had, and allowed accordingly.
As for the ABU issue, turn the way-back machine to the 1980's, when CAP slowly swapped green fatigues for BDU's, and expect pretty much the same throughout the next several years.
Quote from: O-Rex on June 02, 2008, 04:35:23 PM
I've seen situations where CGEX and NAVEX contacted AAFES to see what priviliges we had, and allowed accordingly.
As for the ABU issue, turn the way-back machine to the 1980's, when CAP slowly swapped green fatigues for BDU's, and expect pretty much the same throughout the next several years.
But Mr. Peabody, some of us weren't here to see that happen. :angel:
'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.'
George Santayana: Life of Reason, Reason in Common Sense, Scribner's, 1905, page 284
Just one of the reasons ACSC and AWC concentrate so much on history.
Quote from: O-Rex on June 02, 2008, 04:35:23 PM
I've seen situations where CGEX and NAVEX contacted AAFES to see what privileges we had, and allowed accordingly.
As for the ABU issue, turn the way-back machine to the 1980's, when CAP slowly swapped green fatigues for BDU's, and expect pretty much the same throughout the next several years.
I I am not mistaken weren't fatigues still being worn by CAP members in 1991?
True, but the swap started in the late 80s.
Quote from: Orion Pax on June 02, 2008, 04:41:29 PM
But Mr. Peabody, some of us weren't here to see that happen. :angel:
My dear Pet Boy Sherman: ;D
I believe we will be auth'd ABU's shortly after the USAF mandatory date of 2011, and BDU's will not completely phase out until late the next decade.
All in agreement say "Aye."
Aye
Quote from: Short Field on June 02, 2008, 04:27:55 PM
Dark gray works well for the "cool" factor but does nothing for Search and Rescue visibiliity.
Thats what an orange vest is for and it probably is a little more visable than BDU's. Plus you can have an orange shirt for underneath that would help with visability well debloused. AS for the ABU's they might authorize them in a few years but I don't see everyone having them for a long time.
Actually, BDU's are no longer produced and stocked by DSCP. What are on the shelves in Navy/CG exchanges is what is left of the supply. Granted the supply is huge, but it will only be three years before they are exhausted.
Right now there are enough ABU's to outfit every Airman. I would predict CAP's phase in quicker than expected.
What we no longer have are enough boots (in black of course). Not sure but does the Coast Guard wear black boots? If so, they are the only service left doing that then right?!?
Quote from: NCO forever on June 02, 2008, 07:41:34 PM
Aye
Thats what an orange vest is for and it probably is a little more visable than BDU's. Plus you can have an orange shirt for underneath that would help with visability well debloused. AS for the ABU's they might authorize them in a few years but I don't see everyone having them for a long time.
Where I live, unless you are standing in the middle of an open field at 12PM, orange shirts and vests do little for visibility. I can see the orange argument for people in the cornfields of Iowa, but in the forests of Pennsylvania, good luck.
Quote from: mikeylikey on June 02, 2008, 07:47:51 PM
Where I live, unless you are standing in the middle of an open field at 12PM, orange shirts and vests do little for visibility. I can see the orange argument for people in the cornfields of Iowa, but in the forests of Pennsylvania, good luck.
Then you're just not getting the right type of oragne vest. There are some that are very visible. It's not just the organge but the white strip that makes them reflective. Try going to your local Police Supply Store.
Quote from: MIKE on June 02, 2008, 04:25:08 PM
I didn't think CAP was authorized to shop at NAVEX for uniforms? I am, but that is beside the point.
Its just another base exchange - can't do anything online, but we shop at Great Lakes all the time.
Quote from: O-Rex on June 02, 2008, 07:29:58 PM
My dear Pet Boy Sherman: ;D
I believe we will be auth'd ABU's shortly after the USAF mandatory date of 2011, and BDU's will not completely phase out until late the next decade.
All in agreement say "Aye."
Ayuh!
Quote from: NCO forever on June 02, 2008, 07:41:34 PM
AS for the ABU's they might authorize them in a few years but I don't see everyone having them for a long time.
Why not?
Nay. Personaly, I'm expecting the switch to be authorized sometime in the next 2 years and that BDUs will be phased out by 2012 at the latest.
FYI, I believe CAP-USAF was asked about this at one of the national meetings and/or it was mentioned in the notes. No formal press release or anything like that, but credible info.
Quote from: RiverAux on June 02, 2008, 10:00:03 PM
BDUs will be phased out by 2012 at the latest.
At the latest?
Short suspense, but with CAP uniforms, lately we've seen that anything can happen...
Just a guess on my part. We seem to have gone with 2-3 years for phase out of other stuff. Maybe with uniforms it will go longer. No matter what the "final" phaseout date of BDUs is, I'm fairly confident that most CAP members who can wear them will switch pretty soon after it is approved.
My BDUs don't fit anymore as is.
Quote from: mikeylikey on June 02, 2008, 07:45:04 PM
Actually, BDU's are no longer produced and stocked by DSCP. What are on the shelves in Navy/CG exchanges is what is left of the supply. Granted the supply is huge, but it will only be three years before they are exhausted.
Right now there are enough ABU's to outfit every Airman. I would predict CAP's phase in quicker than expected.
What we no longer have are enough boots (in black of course). Not sure but does the Coast Guard wear black boots? If so, they are the only service left doing that then right?!?
If you can't find black boots, you're not looking hard enough.....
Quote from: RiverAux on June 02, 2008, 10:00:03 PM
FYI, I believe CAP-USAF was asked about this at one of the national meetings and/or it was mentioned in the notes. No formal press release or anything like that, but credible info.
I don't doubt that for a minute, but an off-handed, informal conversation is a far-cry from authorizing a uniform spec, not to mention the fact that by 2011 we may well have different command at both NHQ and CAP-USAF.
I don't think anyone has claimed that this has been set in stone. As has been mentioned, CAP would need to formally request it.
Based on history, I daresay that CAP will be allowed to wear them.
We just need to brace ourselves for the cost: I know of alot of Cadets whose families are not exactly rolling in dough.
The killer is the boots: about $120 a pair, and I haven't seen any discount Far-East knockoffs yet.
For those who keep mentioning grey BDU's... All I've got to say is... "Nay". Especially for CAWG.
Most major CAWG events are held at Camp San Luis Obispo, CA (an ARNG post). Among the units that meet there is what's called the "Grizzly Youth Academy". It's essentially a disciplinary program for youth (who would, otherwise, be going to juvie), which is run by the ARNG. Their uniforms:
Grey BDUs.
Quote from: PhoenixCadet on June 03, 2008, 10:52:49 PM
Most major CAWG events are held at Camp San Luis Obispo, CA (an ARNG post). Among the units that meet there is what's called the "Grizzly Youth Academy". It's essentially a disciplinary program for youth (who would, otherwise, be going to juvie), which is run by the ARNG. Their uniforms:
Grey BDUs.
Yes, they wear grey BDUs but you might want to check some of your other facts. Here are the entrance requirements to Grizzly Youth Academy from their website. Emphasis mine.
Be a United States citizen or legal resident and a resident of California
Be 16, 17, or 18 years of age on the first day of admission
A high school drop-out or at risk of dropping out (behind in credits, truancy, etc.)
Drug Free: Students will be drug tested. Those who fail this test will be sent home NO EXCEPTIONS
No felony adjudications/convictions, awaiting trial, or currently in trial proceedings Physically, mentally, and emotionally capable of completing the program
Volunteer to attend...... this is not an alternative sentencing program Committed to making a change in their life
Now back to the topic
My mistake. Guess it was the product of rumors.
Most National Guard have such youth programs and they generally are for "troubled" youths of one kind or another. This isn't something your local Eagle Scout is going to volunteer to go attend.
Quote from: mikeylikey on June 02, 2008, 06:06:58 PM
Quote from: O-Rex on June 02, 2008, 04:35:23 PM
I've seen situations where CGEX and NAVEX contacted AAFES to see what privileges we had, and allowed accordingly.
As for the ABU issue, turn the way-back machine to the 1980's, when CAP slowly swapped green fatigues for BDU's, and expect pretty much the same throughout the next several years.
I I am not mistaken weren't fatigues still being worn by CAP members in 1991?
Yep. I didn't switch from fatigues to BDUs until '92.
There are only so many darker colors to choose from, no matter what we chose someone would be using it for something.
Black, blue and gray are used by police, swat, and pest abatement. Green by forestry. Orange by a lot of correctional facilities.
The point is to find something uniquely ours and move on.
If the military connection is that important to the cadet program, leave cadets in a military look-alike.
Quote from: Eclipse on June 04, 2008, 01:49:44 PM
There are only so many darker colors to choose from, no matter what we chose someone would be using it for something.
Black, blue and gray are used by police, swat, and pest abatement. Green by forestry. Orange by a lot of correctional facilities.
The point is to find something uniquely ours and move on.
If the military connection is that important to the cadet program, leave cadets in a military look-alike.
Brown is used by some sheriff's departments and correctional agencies for officers, not "guests". Olive drab is also used by varous LE agencies.
If we want something distinctive, a two tone set would be best. Most agencies who wear bdu-style uniforms use the same color for shirts and trousers. In another discussion, various two-tone set ups were discussed. IIRC, the khaki/tan over blue was the most popular, but some felt it had too much of a Marine wannabe look. Since the golf shirt uniform is appearing more regularly at incident bases, perhaps a blue over grey bdu-style uniform could be considered for the field.
Maybe CAP should go with the original ABUs they tested in 2004. They may not be tactically sound, but they sure as heck stand out....
Thanks to Stonewall, I now know my new shipment of keyboards was not a waste of money........
I just spoke about ABU's to an NYANG CMSgt and he knew that USAF authorized the wear of ABU's for CAP just like this board's members claim. He told me that we'd be wearing them soon, like the rest of the total force.
Yes, the boots would be green. No, they're not all $120. There are versions for as little as $98.
I think the authorization will come sometime in 2010 as just about all USAF, USAFR and ANG personnel should be in full 4 sets issued status by then. I think 5 years phase-in should be sufficient for our purposes, so perhaps mandatory wear date of 2015.
The woodland BDU isn't slated to be worn by any service. All but USN have already switched and even the Navy's coming up soon. Their battle uniform is based on the USMC's digital patter, but in dark blue, black, and gray colors. The BDU won't be available much longer because no one will make them to military standards. Sure, there'll be pants and shirts in woodland pattern, but they may be odd in cut, fit and look. They will also be substandard in quality.
USCG does still wear black boots, but we're technically not allowed to shop at their exchanges. Thankfully, all the combat boot manufacturers (Altama, Bates, Belleville, Danner, and Wellco) are still making military specs black boots.
QuoteUSCG does still wear black boots, but we're technically not allowed to shop at their exchanges.
Having bought a pair of black boots from the CG's Uniform Distribution Center, I'm not terribly impressed with them. Fine for shipboard use, but I don't think the tread woud cut it in the woods.
Super Boot II?
Quote from: MIKE on June 09, 2008, 03:20:47 AM
Super Boot II?
A lot of the Navy guys in Jacksonville wear these. Guess they get them at USCG Station Mayport's MCSS...
(http://www.uscg.mil/uniform/images/Boots.jpg)
They look comfy, but like River said, not sure they'd be good for ground team work.
Super Boot III is coming though. I'm hoping to get by with my ICBs from CAP until I need the safety toes.
QuoteUSCG does still wear black boots, but we're technically not allowed to shop at their exchanges.
When they are the only ones wearing black boots, and all other suppliers have stopped making money off producing (when they switch the assembly lines over to tans/greens/grey) blacks boots, I bet we see CG pick up one of the other services distinctive boots. Most likely whatever the navy goes with.
Right now the largest distributors of black boots (AAFES/navy and marine exchange) no longer distribute black boots. So we are stuck buying on line or surplus. That is not a winning situation for us.
AF needs to set a date for ABU's for CAP, and CAPNHQ needs to say "AF sage green boots are now permitted to be worn with BDU's". SO CAP-USAF start working on this!
Fixed quote - MIKE
Quote from: mikeylikey on June 09, 2008, 03:52:54 AM
QuoteUSCG does still wear black boots, but we're technically not allowed to shop at their exchanges.
When they are the only ones wearing black boots, and all other suppliers have stopped making money off producing (when they switch the assembly lines over to tans/greens/grey) blacks boots, I bet we see CG pick up one of the other services distinctive boots. Most likely whatever the navy goes with.
Right now the largest distributors of black boots (AAFES/navy and marine exchange) no longer distribute black boots. So we are stuck buying on line or surplus. That is not a winning situation for us.
AF needs to set a date for ABU's for CAP, and CAPNHQ needs to say "AF sage green boots are now permitted to be worn with BDU's". SO CAP-USAF start working on this!
Fixed quote - MIKE
Mikey, I'm 100% with you on this. They need to phase in the boots before everything else. Allowing for smooth transitions makes the financial burden just a little lighter on everyone.
For now, I have 3 pair of black leather boots and I'll resole them if needed, but I don't want to buy a new pair until the sage green ones are a "GO" for us.
Quote from: RiverAux on June 09, 2008, 03:13:58 AM
QuoteUSCG does still wear black boots, but we're technically not allowed to shop at their exchanges.
Having bought a pair of black boots from the CG's Uniform Distribution Center, I'm not terribly impressed with them. Fine for shipboard use, but I don't think the tread woud cut it in the woods.
USCG boots, like Navy boots are "deck" boots. They're flatter on the bottom to allow for better friction on ship/boat decks (like jump boots). They're fine for garrison use, but not for GT work.
Besides, as CAP members, we don't have authorization to shop in NAVEX or CGEX, so it's a moot point. 1000 people out of 50,000+ who have privileges because of outside affiliation don't count, sorry. We have to go by what we're specifically allowed.
As a side note, the last time I was at McGuire/Dix/Lakehearst JSB, I stopped by the MCSS (services all branches except CG) and they didn't have black boots in stock. They said the USN personnel order them by phone via NAVEX.
IIRC, even the USAF doesn't allow the sage boots to be worn with the BDU... They made allowances to wear the tan boots with the ABU and DCU, but not the BDU.
Edit: I meant BDU.
Quote from: MIKE on June 09, 2008, 04:43:20 PM
IIRC, even the USAF doesn't allow the sage boots to be worn with the BDU... They made allowances to wear the tan boots with the ABU and DCU, but not the ABU.
There was a reason for it. The sage green boots arrived long after the ABU did. As such, they didn't have an issue of someone having the boots and not having the uniform.
They allowed the desert boots to be worn with ABU because black was definitely out of question in theater and as I said earlier, the sage just weren't available yet.
They figured that by the time the sage boots did come to MCSS, the ABU would be widely available for purchase (FOR USAF PERSONNEL).
That isn't the case for us unfortunately. We have easier access to the boots (via internet) than we do to the ABU and we don't get issued anything anyway. We have to pay for it all. I'm just saying it would be the right thing to do to authorize CAP to do that and we'd definitely need approval from USAF for it, but hey, they don't seem to mind extra distinctiveness.
Our leaders need to emphasize the cost of membership in CAP to USAF leadership. With the economy going down, they may end up doing that by total membership numbers if they aren't careful.
FYI- The USAF allows the sage green boots to be worn with the BDU uniform. I'm not sure when they made that decision, but they did. I am currently wearing a pair with my BDUs, as our many other members of my NYANG unit.
I have the ABU, but I don't like it. I'll stick to the BDU until the 2011 mandatory wear date. The ABU material is too thick & stiff. If it's above 75 you'll roast in them!
I wish we were keeping the BDU.
If you can find a cite, would you mind posting it? It would be a nice addition when forwarding a proposal for adoption.
Can't cite it other than saying I'm at Lackland AFB right now and lots of people are wearing the AF sage boots with regular (woodland) BDUs. It is allowed. Everyone from MTIs, Instructors, Students, Range Cadre. Have several, at least 10, in my class of 59 wearing this combo.
You cannot, however, wear desert boots with BDUs, only ABUs and DCUs.
Quote from: Stonewall on June 09, 2008, 08:22:05 PM
Can't cite it other than saying I'm at Lackland AFB right now and lots of people are wearing the AF sage boots with regular (woodland) BDUs. It is allowed. Everyone from MTIs, Instructors, Students, Range Cadre. Have several, at least 10, in my class of 59 wearing this combo.
I remember a Chief at McEntire mentioning something to one of the cops wearing the sage boots with the BDU. He said he found the message on the Air Force Portal. Any of you guys that have access the the Portal might be able to find it. Stick a PDF file to a post here, I wouldn't mind adding it to my collection of uniform messages.
Never mind. Got the message off one of the base newspapre type web pages. Since I asked for it, someone else may be interested in the message, too. I've attached it.
I understand that are some other messages that alter the initial one, I don't have those, but I'm sure if it affects anyone here, they know how to find it.