CAP Talk

Operations => Tools of the trade => Topic started by: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 02:59:27 PM

Title: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 02:59:27 PM
In the interest of keeping enough money in my squadron's budget for UAV racing, I'm looking at ways to acquire SAR team equipment as inexpensive as possible while still being adequate for service. I came across the idea somewhere of using a deer sled as a folding litter instead of a SKED, cutting the price down by nearly 95%.

Does anyone have any experience with using a deer sled such as the one linked as a rescue litter?

Does it hold up as good as a SKED? Good enough?

Would it be practical to modify one for easier carry, instead of dragging as intended, to keep with the team gear?

The one I'm looking at https://www.amazon.com/Magnum-Deer-Sleighr-Game-Sled/dp/B001CJI7XA
Feel free to add any other suggestions.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
I would go with something like this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004ESX556/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 before that. I own one and it seems fine for what it is.

Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: Eclipse on March 22, 2017, 03:39:39 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.

+1 - the odds of a CAP team ever carrying an actual victim from a crash scene are so remote as to be statistically zero, and certainly a $700 system
designed for airlift is wholly inappropriate for a CAP squadron to be purchasing with corporate money.

If it's deemed necessary to "buy" something, the link Spaceman provide is more then enough, otherwise an improvised litter, in the rare instance it's needed,
would be fine.

A deer sled is for dragging something dead out of the woods, not to remove someone with serious injuries enough injuries that they are no ambulatory.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:32:24 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 22, 2017, 03:39:39 PM
statistically zero,
Saw that coming.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 22, 2017, 03:39:39 PM
A deer sled is for dragging something dead out of the woods, not to remove someone with serious injuries enough injuries that they are no ambulatory.
My question is whether or not there are significant differences between it and a SKED type folding stretcher that affect its usefulness as a rescue litter. Simply being designed for a different purpose doesn't necessarily mean it won't work fine as one. Hair ties weren't designed to stop my flashlight from flopping around, crayons weren't designed as emergency candles, socks weren't designed for soaking to cool water bottles, but they get the job done. Are there better options available? Certainly. However, there's no way I'm going to dump that much of my own or or my unit's bank when there's another way that's so much cheaper and works well enough.

Quote from: Eclipse on March 22, 2017, 03:39:39 PM
...certainly a $700 system designed for airlift is wholly inappropriate for a CAP squadron to be purchasing with corporate money.

100% agree. That's the point of this post.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 05:06:43 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

We've done training with it and it works fine. As for being fabric, if it gets contaminated, spend $15 on a new one.

If you're going to be at GTA this weekend I'll show it off in person.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose? 
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 05:16:23 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 05:06:43 PM
If you're going to be at GTA this weekend I'll show it off in person.
Good deal.

After looking at the reviews on Amazon, I'm a little concerned at the quality control. The experience with yours may be different than that of one I'd buy. If I did end up buying one I'd be sure to test it myself before I try to use it with anyone else.

Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: Eclipse on March 22, 2017, 05:19:31 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:32:24 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 22, 2017, 03:39:39 PM
A deer sled is for dragging something dead out of the woods, not to remove someone with serious injuries enough injuries that they are no ambulatory.
My question is whether or not there are significant differences between it and a SKED type folding stretcher that affect its usefulness as a rescue litter. Simply being designed for a different purpose doesn't necessarily mean it won't work fine as one. Hair ties weren't designed to stop my flashlight from flopping around, crayons weren't designed as emergency candles, socks weren't designed for soaking to cool water bottles, but they get the job done. Are there better options available? Certainly.

Apples and hand-grenades, however yes, there are >significant< "differences" between a piece of plastic designed to drag a dead animal
on the ground and a purpose built rescue device intended to be able to airlift a living being who is most likely seriously injured.

Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:32:24 PM
However, there's no way I'm going to dump that much of my own or or my unit's bank when there's another way that's so much cheaper and works well enough.

I would hazard it's pretty much a given that your squadron won't even consider spending $700 on a litter, regardless of,
but especially in light of, the fact that there are purpose-built devices, assuming you actually need this at all, under $20.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: Chappie on March 22, 2017, 05:20:15 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

^^^ Herein lies wisdom
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:28:52 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.

Before you proceed further you need to talk to leadership...
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 05:34:00 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:28:52 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.

Before you proceed further you need to talk to leadership...
Absolutely, would never purchase team gear without the input/approval of those I'm accountable to. I'm only trying to get info about options so I come to the table with more than "Hey, can we buy a litter?"
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: THRAWN on March 22, 2017, 06:13:47 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

This is a big issue. The liability is enormous. If it is used, and the subject dies or is further injured, be prepared to be sued and, depending on the state, lose. This isn't a standard piece of gear, there is no training on its use, and you're opening yourself up to legal action. Leave evac to the pros.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 06:23:13 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 05:34:00 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:28:52 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.

Before you proceed further you need to talk to leadership...
Absolutely, would never purchase team gear without the input/approval of those I'm accountable to. I'm only trying to get info about options so I come to the table with more than "Hey, can we buy a litter?"

Stop researching and get buy in.  Your leadership may not want to assume the liability for this. 

We as CAP are not in the business of extracting and moving victims.  Any victim who requires the use of a litter is beyond thale care level of basic first aid. 

Talk to your leadership first before proceeding further. 
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 06:23:13 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 05:34:00 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:28:52 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.

Before you proceed further you need to talk to leadership...
Absolutely, would never purchase team gear without the input/approval of those I'm accountable to. I'm only trying to get info about options so I come to the table with more than "Hey, can we buy a litter?"

Stop researching and get buy in.  Your leadership may not want to assume the liability for this. 

We as CAP are not in the business of extracting and moving victims.  Any victim who requires the use of a litter is beyond thale care level of basic first aid. 

Talk to your leadership first before proceeding further.

You say that, yet participate in a litter carry is a required task for GTM3. I'm not saying we should be doing this either, but at some level CAP has decided it is in the people moving business.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 07:00:45 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 06:53:17 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 06:23:13 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 05:34:00 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:28:52 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.

Before you proceed further you need to talk to leadership...
Absolutely, would never purchase team gear without the input/approval of those I'm accountable to. I'm only trying to get info about options so I come to the table with more than "Hey, can we buy a litter?"

Stop researching and get buy in.  Your leadership may not want to assume the liability for this. 

We as CAP are not in the business of extracting and moving victims.  Any victim who requires the use of a litter is beyond thale care level of basic first aid. 

Talk to your leadership first before proceeding further.

You say that, yet participate in a litter carry is a required task for GTM3. I'm not saying we should be doing this either, but at some level CAP has decided it is in the people moving business.

It can be a task, is the org going to front the cost in the event of a civil suit? 
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: Eclipse on March 22, 2017, 07:25:39 PM
Yes, actually.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: THRAWN on March 22, 2017, 08:13:59 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 22, 2017, 07:25:39 PM
Yes, actually.

As long as it's being done according to the training and with the equipment described. Anything else would be highly questionable.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 08:53:47 PM
Quote from: THRAWN on March 22, 2017, 08:13:59 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 22, 2017, 07:25:39 PM
Yes, actually.

As long as it's being done according to the training and with the equipment described. Anything else would be highly questionable.

Now that is covered.  Buy in from leadership is key as is using the right equipment for the job. 
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 09:23:41 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 06:23:13 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 05:34:00 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:28:52 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 05:21:21 PM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 05:10:49 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on March 22, 2017, 03:01:47 PM
Personally if I ever have to carry someone out of the woods I'm going to try to get the EMTs to bring out their toys first anyways (backboard, stokes litter, etc) and let them run the show.
I do agree completely. I'd much rather have the folks who do this as their day job be handling any medical care, both for the sake of the patient and the liability to the operators and the organization. However, I'd like to have the bare capability to safely and easily move a non-ambulatory casualty for if the need arises. Be it an urgent medical emergency where the PT needs to be moved to the heli site or the road ASAP for ease of access to EMS, or a cadet passes out in the sun and needs to be moved out of the open field into the cool van.
Yeah, I know it won't happen, but it might. $20-30 isn't much price to have the capability.

As for the litter you suggested, I do like it and may go for that one, but at first glance I don't like that it's made of fabric. I'd prefer the plastic for ease of cleaning, durability, etc.
Have you had much experience actually using it?

Have you talked to your ESO, SO and finally your CC about this?

Also are you willing to fully accept the liability and reprucussions of using something for other than its intended purpose?

Thank you for pointing that out, that is a very good point, I hadn't thought of it from that angle. There is much at stake in this case that I or my unit would be on the hook for if things don't go just right.

No, I have not discussed this with anyone else yet. Just exploring options.

Before you proceed further you need to talk to leadership...
Absolutely, would never purchase team gear without the input/approval of those I'm accountable to. I'm only trying to get info about options so I come to the table with more than "Hey, can we buy a litter?"

Stop researching and get buy in.  Your leadership may not want to assume the liability for this. 

We as CAP are not in the business of extracting and moving victims.  Any victim who requires the use of a litter is beyond thale care level of basic first aid. 

Talk to your leadership first before proceeding further.

Sir, are you scolding me for trying to learn? You speak like it's a bad thing that I'd like to get information online from others' experiences before rushing into making proposals to my ES staff. Do I need permission from my chain of command to ask questions?
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: SarDragon on March 22, 2017, 10:40:25 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 09:23:41 PM
Sir, are you scolding me for trying to learn? You speak like it's a bad thing that I'd like to get information online from others' experiences before rushing into making proposals to my ES staff. Do I need permission from my chain of command to ask questions?

Not so much scolding you, but suggesting a rearrangement of priorities, and steps in your process.

You are suggesting spending money, possibly squadron funds. This needs a buy-in from the command structure. If they aren't interested, then spending your time, and ours, exploring a dead end issue is non-productive.

As for the two presented options - yours, and the litter in the subsequent post - I see a clear choice, and it isn't the deer sled. The sled is designed to be dragged, not carried. Under no circumstances whatsoever, unless as an absolute last resort, would I drag someone any distance requiring that sort of equipment. The litter is designed to be carried, hence the "participate in a litter carry" task. The sled doesn't lend itself well to carrying, even with modification.

Your enthusiasm is good, but it needs to be properly channeled in order to best benefit your unit.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: Eclipse on March 22, 2017, 10:50:22 PM
The other part would be some understanding of CAP squadron finances - $700 is more
then many (most?) squadron spend in a fiscal year, let alone for one piece of equipment,
even if it's the most hard-kewl thing ever produced for SAR.

You're suggesting in a serious tone that a product which has a very limited use even in the most active
squadrons, and which costs more then either an MK4, an L-Per and even many CAP radios, would be appropriate
for a local unit to purchase (absent a mission mandate).

This is akin to the trauma kits, backboards, plate carriers and similar gear some members drag around never to be used.

That's the main reason for the somewhat visceral response to the post, not anything personal, or an attempt to stunt a
cadet from "learning" (which is basically a straw man in this case).
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 11:09:44 PM
Waukwiz,

No I am not trying to discourage you from learning or seeking information.  As SarDragon and Eclipse have pointed out I am trying to get you to talk to your leadership to discuss it before you spend a lot of effort and time on something they may have no interest in pursuing for any number of reasons.  A refocusing and shifting of the priorities of task you are trying to accomplish. 

The biggest thing here with your idea is the liability of it.  You will incur a civil liability in putting someone on a product not designed or intended for lifesaving and transporting them, you incur a civil liability in rendering aid and care above basic first aid (this has been beaten over and over).  Your best option is to leave the extraction of a victim especially one that may require use of a litter to trained and certified professionals. 

You are talking about an expense the CC may not want to pay. 

Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: waukwiz on March 23, 2017, 02:47:07 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on March 22, 2017, 10:40:25 PM
Quote from: waukwiz on March 22, 2017, 09:23:41 PM
Sir, are you scolding me for trying to learn? You speak like it's a bad thing that I'd like to get information online from others' experiences before rushing into making proposals to my ES staff. Do I need permission from my chain of command to ask questions?
As for the two presented options - yours, and the litter in the subsequent post - I see a clear choice, and it isn't the deer sled. The sled is designed to be dragged, not carried. Under no circumstances whatsoever, unless as an absolute last resort, would I drag someone any distance requiring that sort of equipment. The litter is designed to be carried, hence the "participate in a litter carry" task. The sled doesn't lend itself well to carrying, even with modification.

Thank you, sir. This was the answer I was looking for. I certainly would not suggest dragging someone in a deer sled, outside of last resort, which is why I mentioned the modifying it appropriately. I see your point about this discussion being a waste of my time and that of those who care enough to add their input, all I was looking for was a little guidance from the vast experience of others on this board on the facts and opinions of the piece of equipment in question.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: waukwiz on March 23, 2017, 02:57:33 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on March 22, 2017, 10:50:22 PM
You're suggesting in a serious tone that a product which has a very limited use even in the most active
squadrons, and which costs more then either an MK4, an L-Per and even many CAP radios, would be appropriate for a local unit to purchase (absent a mission mandate).

What I've been asserting is the exact opposite of that. It's absurd for a squadron to spend that much money on something like that. This is why I'm looking for ways to not spend that much money while maximizing operational capabilities and safety.

Regardless, I do appreciate you offering your guidance.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: SarDragon on March 23, 2017, 03:01:15 AM
The way I see it, by the time you get done modifying the sled into something resembling the SKED, you will have spent more time (at some reasonable pay rate; what's your time worth?) and money than it's worth to produce what will likely be an inferior product.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: waukwiz on March 23, 2017, 03:17:08 AM
Quote from: abdsp51 on March 22, 2017, 11:09:44 PM
Waukwiz,

No I am not trying to discourage you from learning or seeking information.  As SarDragon and Eclipse have pointed out I am trying to get you to talk to your leadership to discuss it before you spend a lot of effort and time on something they may have no interest in pursuing for any number of reasons.  A refocusing and shifting of the priorities of task you are trying to accomplish. 

The biggest thing here with your idea is the liability of it.  You will incur a civil liability in putting someone on a product not designed or intended for lifesaving and transporting them, you incur a civil liability in rendering aid and care above basic first aid (this has been beaten over and over).  Your best option is to leave the extraction of a victim especially one that may require use of a litter to trained and certified professionals. 

You are talking about an expense the CC may not want to pay.

I'm sorry, sir. I misread your response as a knee-jerk reaction to a cadet member asking about a semi-controversial topic.

The civil liability from using an implement outside of it's intended use hadn't occurred to me, and I'm thankful you've pointed it out. Upon further thought, that issue alone is enough to turn me against the idea.

I am not sure, however, that in an emergency where seconds may count, I'll be too concerned about whether or not moving a victim to safety is care above first aid, or like I mentioned before, when a cadet has a syncope from being in the sun too long, not hydrating, not changing his socks, not having cardboard in his cover, etc. and needs to be moved to shade.

Thank you very much for the advice you've given; I now understand it's not worth looking too deep into things like this when it's likely I'll suggest my idea to my ESO and look like a fool for doing so.
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: waukwiz on March 23, 2017, 03:21:04 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on March 23, 2017, 03:01:15 AM
The way I see it, by the time you get done modifying the sled into something resembling the SKED, you will have spent more time (at some reasonable pay rate; what's your time worth?) and money than it's worth to produce what will likely be an inferior product.

I'm a strange guy; a weekend spent building a rescue litter is more appealing to me than a weekend spent doing much else. Even if the time builds up to being worth $700 at a low wage  :P
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: Luis R. Ramos on March 23, 2017, 07:49:49 PM
Quote

...when a cadet has a syncope from being in the sun too long, not hydrating, not changing his socks, not having cardboard in his cover, You mean hat, right? And what would cardboard in the hat do here? etc. and needs to be moved to shade.


Are you kidding me?

I would be surprised that you would stop to wait for a stretcher to move a cadet to the shade. If you do that, you would show no knowledge of first aid. As soon as (s)he starts showing signs of a heat emergency, if you are competent enough to recognize them, you should be competent enough to take proper action! You do not need a sked, stretcher, or whatever to take this proper action. That person would be ambulatory enough!

???
Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: Spam on March 24, 2017, 01:44:24 AM
... having said and anguished through all of that...

My unit has (more than once) had to use body bags (at the request of the county coroner) to assist in removal of remains. They form a standard element in our GT kit. We have also pressed them into service for personnel transport, without elaboration on what type of gear they are.  We also do have an actual stretcher, but I thought I'd offer from answering the OP's original intent.

https://bodybagstore.com/disaster-bags.html (https://bodybagstore.com/disaster-bags.html)


I would like to suggest that a well equipped team which FEMA resource-types as a heavy type team, would have both a set of bags and a real litter. Half and full boards and Stokes are probably beyond the low angle non technical capabilities of almost all CAP teams, and are a waste of money (and a contributor to a false sense of competence in those areas).

V/r
Spam


Title: Re: Deer Sled as Litter?
Post by: sarmed1 on April 20, 2017, 01:28:53 PM
Quote from: Spam on March 24, 2017, 01:44:24 AM
{snip}....
Half and full boards and Stokes are probably beyond the low angle non technical capabilities of almost all CAP teams, and are a waste of money (and a contributor to a false sense of competence in those areas).

V/r
Spam

In particular use of the long (or short) backboard is pretty much limited to very particular cases (ie almost not used) in most EMS and even rescue scenarios except as a patient movement device.  One of the benefits to the Stokes style is not so much a technical aspect as a "put handles on the patient" for the carry out of any non-"road" or short distance, as those encountered in the wilderness environment, in my personal and varied experience, is still the best tool for the job. (durability, drag-ability, patient protection are all other benefits).

More in line with the OP's question; the benefit to the SKED type is portability and weight.  The fact that I can roll it up and carry it relatively compact is a huge benefit, especially if I am not "sure" I am actually going to use it.  Yes you can drag it as needed (but I have seen a number of them that have been drug, I would be very hesitant to use it again for any patient transport)  As a long time EMS, fire, rescue, and SAR guy (outside of CAP) I still dont really prefer the SKED type for anything except confined space rescue. 
The Stokes style is more versatile and user friendly.  If you have a CAP SAR team that actively participates in actual missing person searches (or at least has the potential too) I would recommend at minimum training on the Stokes stretcher; it is the most likely one to come in contact with on an actual mission.  There are plenty out there that can be had for minimal outlay of cash (I'd say less than $100 used) more than likely there is someone out there willing to give one away (give away's may require your "refurbishing" skills,  usually replacing the "wire" and a new coat of paint)

If you are looking for a just in case sort of tool, as mentioned, any of the non rigid litters will do in a pinch.  For a little more robust and ease of carrying, the standard folding military litter is a good all around stretcher.  Not as technically inclined as a stokes, and not as "cool" factor as the SKED, but a good tool for most aspects of what a CAP unit would need.  Disaster, activity standby etc etc.

MK