I know there are a few threads about SAR vests and gear. I've even read some praising both Search Gear's Hydra-SAR vest and True North Aero-Vest. After a lot of research, I'm down to these two options for use as a UDF and GT 24-pack. The Hydra-SAR is much cheaper than the Aero-Vest, but the Aero-Vest is modular and configurable. I would buy the orange one, which also have some reflective tape. That being said, a concern I have with buying either one of these is the new requirement in CAPR 62-1 that states that vests MUST be ANSI Class II or III compliant. Neither of these vests are. The Hydra-SAR would cover the entire safety vest (if one is worn underneath). The Aero-Vest would cover most, but some parts may still be visible depending on the vest worn. I really don't want to wear a safety vest on top of my gear vest.
Which one is the better option: Hydra-SAR or Aero-Vest? Are there other better options?
(http://searchgear.com/ProductImages/vest/vestHydraSARoragne.jpg)
Hydra-SAR
(http://www.truenorthgear.com/_large/212aerovest_orange_front.jpg)
True North Aero-Vest
Put safety vest on top of either you choose and your good to go.
I don't know about either of those vests so I'm little help with a choice between the two, but I've been liking this:
(http://www.thevestguy.com/product_images/fitchburg_fire_photographer.jpg)
http://www.thevestguy.com/product/10367 (http://www.thevestguy.com/product/10367)
I like the number and placement of pockets and it claims to be ANSI II but It's a tad pricey.
Thanks for your post. I think this may be a great alternative to the Hydra-SAR vest. The Hydra-SAR is less expensive and comes with a hydration system and back pack, but's not ANSI II compliant. I like the fact that TheVestGuy.com will customize the vest to your specifications. But looking at some of the options, it certainly makes the vest much more expensive.
I still like the Aero-Vest a lot. If I was to buy one, I would get the hydration system, belt and back pack options with it. That would also make the vest very expensive, even more so than the one above. Decisions... decisions... It's a tough call, but I think I'm going to give TheVestGuy.com a call and see what are my options. This may be the only acceptable alternative in order to avoid wearing an ANSI safety vest on top of my gear vest.
I forgot to post the links to the vest on the OP. Here they are:
http://searchgear.com/hydra-sarandx2122.aspx (http://searchgear.com/hydra-sarandx2122.aspx)
http://www.truenorthgear.com/product_detail.php?path=0_11&p_id=212 (http://www.truenorthgear.com/product_detail.php?path=0_11&p_id=212)
I bought the Hydra-Sar several years ago and absolutely love it. I carry everything required for the 24 hour pack as well as a couple of other personal additions.
It has help up very well. It' s been through many SAREX's, 3 actual ground team missions, and two weeks of NBB without a single failure or problem.
Quote from: Man Of Action on January 10, 2013, 09:13:18 PM
I bought the Hydra-Sar several years ago and absolutely love it. I carry everything required for the 24 hour pack as well as a couple of other personal additions.
It has help up very well. It' s been through many SAREX's, 3 actual ground team missions, and two weeks of NBB without a single failure or problem.
To the original question though, do you just wear your reflective vest over top of it? or underneath it?
The Hydra-SAR was originally my first choice. The problem is the ANSI requirement in CAPR 62-1. It seems that the only 'out-of-the-box' solution would be a vest from TheVestGuy.com (the ANSI II Photography Vest would be my choice). I'm still not convinced though. For that price, I expect a bit more.
I'm seriously considering buying the True North Aero-Vest and wearing an ANSI compliant vest underneath. The trick is finding one with enough reflective material exposed through the Aero-Vest to meet the requirement. I've even toyed with the idea of adding reflective tape to the Aero-Vest itself, but don't know how feasible and costly that would be.
Whatever option I pick, I'm definitely not planning on wearing a safety vest over my gear, but under it.
The ANSI vest or jacket has to be the outermost garment.
Quote from: RSalort on January 10, 2013, 09:31:21 PM
Whatever option I pick, I'm definitely not planning on wearing a safety vest over my gear, but under it.
CAPR 62-1 Section 7:
b. Safety vests are approved for wear over the outermost garment of AF-style uniform or corporate uniform and must be ANSI compliant as defined in paragraph 7d below.
While I agree with you, sorry it is a NO GO.
Actually, CAPR 62-1's exact wording is "Safety vests are approved over the outermost garment of the AF-style uniform or corporate uniform." (emphasis mine) It doesn't specifically states that it must be worn over gear. That being said, common sense would suggest that since the purpose of the ANSI Class 2 or 3 compliance is safety, that the vest, especially the reflective parts, should be visible.
Quote from: RSalort on January 10, 2013, 10:34:17 PM
Actually, CAPR 62-1's exact wording is "Safety vests are approved over the outermost garment of the AF-style uniform or corporate uniform." It doesn't specifically states that it must be worn over gear. That being said, common sense would suggest that since the purpose of the ANSI Class 2 or 3 compliance is safety, that the vest, especially the reflective parts, should be visible.
True, however, the wording in the letter mandating the change specifically stated it had to be worn over gear. Now that I go look for it, I can't find the letter.
Quote from: RogueLeader on January 10, 2013, 10:41:29 PM
Quote from: RSalort on January 10, 2013, 10:34:17 PM
Actually, CAPR 62-1's exact wording is "Safety vests are approved over the outermost garment of the AF-style uniform or corporate uniform." It doesn't specifically states that it must be worn over gear. That being said, common sense would suggest that since the purpose of the ANSI Class 2 or 3 compliance is safety, that the vest, especially the reflective parts, should be visible.
True, however, the wording in the letter mandating the change specifically stated it had to be worn over gear. Now that I go look for it, I can't find the letter.
Well there was this one found in eservices by clicking the news feed:
Safety Awareness Bulletin: 13-01 (121210)
(sorry, couldn't copy and paste due to the whole thing basically being images)
It doesn't say anything about being the outermost layer.
I agree though, I seem to recall seeing a letter with that directive as well.
Only vests are approved for wear with USAF-Style uniforms, any ANSI-compliant outerwear such as a jacket or raincoat
may be work over the corporate uniforms.
The intent is pretty clear that it is to be worn as the outermost garment. The days of hiding a $5 orange vest under a $300 tac vest or
thinking that a 1" armband meet the mandate are over.
Quote from: johnnyb47 on January 09, 2013, 10:44:08 PM
I don't know about either of those vests so I'm little help with a choice between the two, but I've been liking this:
(http://www.thevestguy.com/product_images/fitchburg_fire_photographer.jpg)
http://www.thevestguy.com/product/10367 (http://www.thevestguy.com/product/10367)
I like the number and placement of pockets and it claims to be ANSI II but It's a tad pricey.
Did you also view the Incident Commander vest on the same site? It seemed a bit less pricey, but still plenty of pockets
http://www.thevestguy.com/product/500019 (http://www.thevestguy.com/product/500019)
http://www.thevestguy.com/product/10279 (http://www.thevestguy.com/product/10279)
Both lower cost options. Both look pretty good to me.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 10, 2013, 11:11:11 PM
The intent is pretty clear that it is to be worn as the outermost garment. The days of hiding a $5 orange vest under a $300 tac vest or
thinking that a 1" armband meet the mandate are over.
I've seen this over and over. The National Board (or whatever new body approves these now a days) debates an issue, proposals are submitted, then amendments, finally a decision is made, follow by a report, and often, but not always, by an ICL. Then at some later time, the regulation is finally revised... only to leave much of the intent of the original proposal out. The problem is that the only authoritative source is the regulation, unless there's an ICL, Supplement, or other official source augmenting or clarifying the policy.
While I understand the intent, which is maintaining visibility during certain ground operations for safety reasons, the current regulation does NOT address gear. And while it's also obvious that a tactical vest could cover an ANSI vest defeating the purpose of wearing one, what do we do with other type of gear such as backpacks? What if the backpack is too big to wear a safety vest on top. The regulation does not address that.
Since the regulation does not prohibit carrying bags and other gear and does not require wearing a vest on top of it, which would be very difficult (sometimes impossible) with certain types of bags, let's go back to the intent, which is maintaining visibility and safety. ANSI Class 2 standard requires that the garment fabric must have 201 in.
2 of reflective trim, 23.25 in.
2 of reflective material in the shoulder area (for garment without sleeves), 775 in.
2 of fluorescent (i.g. orange or lime green) background material and provide 360
o visibility, with horizontal gaps of 50 mm or less.
While I admit that accomplishing this with a tac or other gear vest could prove challenging, I would argue that if you can accomplish it while wearing your gear, then you're in compliance. Of course, this is just my own analysis and in no way is meant as an authoritative statement. But contrary to the statement quoted above, the regulation is NOT clear on this issue. I'm sure (or better yet, hope) that more guidance will come soon, if not from National, then from Regions and/or Wings.
I wear an Aero Vest and love it. If someone makes a big deal about ANSI I can and have dropped it into leg pouches and break out the orange vest. I use a Camelbak underneath when I do this.
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 12, 2013, 12:29:39 AM
I wear an Aero Vest and love it. If someone makes a big deal about ANSI I can and have dropped it into leg pouches and break out the orange vest. I use a Camelbak underneath when I do this.
I think I'm going to buy the Aero-Vest; I really like what I've seen so far. If ANSI becomes an issue, I may just do that or wear a vest on top. We'll see. Which version do you have: Wildland or Urban? I was going to buy the Wildland at first, but after talking to the manufacturer, True North, I think I'm going to get the Urban. The main difference, as it was explained, is that the Urban version has zipper pockets and the Wildland has velcro/snap-on ones. Any thoughts on this?
I'd probably go with the zippers, especially if you're keeping the little stuff in there.
No one with sense is going to give you grief if you're wearing a bright orange or lime green vest with reflective striping.
The reg is aimed at correcting the people who for years were buying / wearing either camo or black hardkewl tac vests, plate carriers
and the like, and then wearing their "required" vest underneath it. That or forgoing a vest altogether and wearing a 2-inch am band and/or reflective belt and thinking that met the mandate, which it doesn't and never did.
Quote from: RSalort on January 12, 2013, 12:39:57 AM
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on January 12, 2013, 12:29:39 AM
I wear an Aero Vest and love it. If someone makes a big deal about ANSI I can and have dropped it into leg pouches and break out the orange vest. I use a Camelbak underneath when I do this.
I think I'm going to buy the Aero-Vest; I really like what I've seen so far. If ANSI becomes an issue, I may just do that or wear a vest on top. We'll see. Which version do you have: Wildland or Urban? I was going to buy the Wildland at first, but after talking to the manufacturer, True North, I think I'm going to get the Urban. The main difference, as it was explained, is that the Urban version has zipper pockets and the Wildland has velcro/snap-on ones. Any thoughts on this?
I have the wildland, the snaps make it easier to load and you can stuff more stuff in if needed. The wild land also has a waterproof docs pouch.
Thanks for all the replies. They were very helpful.
I've made my decision. I'm going to give the Aero-Vest a shot. I'm buying the hi-viz orange Urban model with the zippered pockets. This model also has the F.O.G. case and an extra flagging tape dispenser. Everything else is pretty much identical to the Wildland model. I'm also buying the matching Drink! Lynx hydration system, speed belt and Aero-Pack. I'm planning on putting the UDF gear and the most frequently used GT gear in the vest and the rest in the detachable pack. This will help keep things light when I don't need the extra gear.
I'll report back next month, when I get a chance to test it in the field.
I have owned both of the mentioned vests for about three years now, I was issued the Hydra-SAR vest from the County SAR team and got the Aero Vest Urban for CAP use, but after a couple of months I just switched to the Aero Vest for everything. Carrying a poncho, survival kit, 3 Liters of water in the back pocket of the Hydra-SAR vest caused it to ride up on me and would be pretty uncomfortable during those difficult field assignments.
The thing I really love about the Aero- Vest is the ability to wear them as thigh rigs allowing you to wear a proper 72 hour pack. Let me know if you have any questions.
Quote from: Jerry Jacobs on January 14, 2013, 02:35:28 AM
The thing I really love about the Aero- Vest is the ability to wear them as thigh rigs allowing you to wear a proper 72 hour pack. Let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks. I do have one. Where did you buy yours? The manufacturer doesn't do direct sales and I have been checking multiple vendors. So far, the best price for each item (including shipping) seems to be from Fire-etc.com (http://fire-etc.com). However, they don't sell the Urban model on their website. I called them last week and was expecting call back, but never got one. Any thoughts on vendors?
I dont have any specific vendor I use for my gear. And the aero vest was a gift so I'm not exactly sure where the best place to get it is. However you can most likely find it on any website that sells wildland firefighting gear as True North vests are wildly used by wildland firefighters.
I ended up placing my order through Fire Etc (http://www.fire-etc.com (http://www.fire-etc.com)). Joel was very helpful and worked with me to get the items not available through their website.
One note: the hi-viz orange Aero-Vest is being discontinued, although they still have some left in inventory. In fact, they did not have the Drink! Lynx Hydration System in orange through any of the normal channels. I called several vendors and, while they had the orange one listed on their websites, they did not have any in stock. I had to call the manufacturer who, after doing some search, was able to find one previously used in demos.
If anyone is interested in this vest, I suggest that you place your order now while supplies last. They are only discontinuing the orange models and will still carry the black ones.
Does anyone know if the bigger pocket(s) on the Aero-Vest Wildland will hold a standard size David Clark headset? Also looking to see if the pocket will hold sectionals and approach plates etc. I'm looking for a vest to keep my flying gear organized in one grab and go set-up. I do like the open back to make sitting easier and keeping heat from getting trapped.
I don't think they are. I have an Aero-Vest Urban, which should be able to carry about the same amount of gear, although the pockets are slightly different; mine have zippers. I don't think any of the pockets is large enough. I can check tonight and confirm this with my David Clark headset. The headset would definitely fit in the Aero-Pack that goes on the back and attaches to the speed belt. Of course, that's an extra expense and you would have to remove it before flight.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on February 04, 2013, 01:57:50 PM
I don't think they are. I have an Aero-Vest Urban, which should be able to carry about the same amount of gear, although the pockets are slightly different; mine have zippers. I don't think any of the pockets is large enough. I can check tonight and confirm this with my David Clark headset. The headset would definitely fit in the Aero-Pack that goes on the back and attaches to the speed belt. Of course, that's an extra expense and you would have to remove it before flight.
Thanks....I hate to find out after buying something that it doesn't fit what I had in mind. I have a Sporty's Bag but it still means I'm fishing out gear for the flight and packing it back up at the end.....or reaching back for something during a flight. A vest means I have everything (or at least my most used items)in front of me from walking out to the aircraft to shutdown.
The front pockets on the Urban model are definitely not big enough for a David Clark headset. While the Wildland front pockets are shape slightly different, I suspect they won't be big enough either. The Aero-Vest has two side pockets (one on each side) that may be big enough to fit a headset. However, the opening seemed a bit small and I had trouble trying to get my David Clark headset in. I gave up because I figured that even if it fits, it would be a pain to get in and out.
Quote from: Storm Chaser on February 05, 2013, 01:28:11 PM
The front pockets on the Urban model are definitely not big enough for a David Clark headset. While the Wildland front pockets are shape slightly different, I suspect they won't be big enough either. The Aero-Vest has two side pockets (one on each side) that may be big enough to fit a headset. However, the opening seemed a bit small and I had trouble trying to get my David Clark headset in. I gave up because I figured that even if it fits, it would be a pain to get in and out.
Well I saved $140. I've been toying with different ideas from orange surveyor and hunting vests and using the back plan/game pouch for the headset. The headset has to come out to fly anyway so not too big a deal. I was also hoping for something that holds the military right angle flashlight where it can be used if needed during flight similar to the military flight vests out there.
Looks like finding what I want is certainly possible but likely north of $200 to start. There are actually Orange Nomex electrician vests I've seen out there that aren't cheap...and not ANSI compliant either.
Sectional will fit however it will be a tight fit. Headset as others have mentioned won't fit inside However you may be able to hang it from the drag handle and when you donn the vest simply hang it around your neck.
I'd say you have two options if you're really concerned about making a not-ANSI orange vest compliant. a) wear a 'vest' underneath that has sleeves with reflective material (google search for surveyor's vest), or b) get some reflective stripes from somewhere and sew them on. I did this with an old PT reflective belt. seems to work.
Compliance relies on background color and area of reflective material. You can't do it on your own as cheaply as the folks who mass produce the vests, and it still isn't really compliant, since it's not certified.
I have an orange ANSI II safety vest with additional reflective tape to wear underneath my hi-viz orange True North Aero-Vest. While some of the reflective material is covered by the Aero-Vest, most is still visible. In addition, the hydration system (also hi-viz orange) has a strip of reflective tape on the back. There are also two small reflective strips on the straps. Since the Aero-Vest has two 2x4" areas of Velcro® on the front pockets, I'm considering adding reflective material there as well.
I believe my current setup provides more visibility than most alternatives I've seen in the field. In most cases, carrying a backpack will cover half of your vest. And unless you have a huge vest, most won't properly fit over a backpack when worn. Even if you can manage to wear a safety vest over your tactical vest or backpack, you'll have other challenges when trying to get to your gear. I've already field-tested my gear/vest combination and it seems to work well.