Question: Is it possible to be a member of two squadrons at once? If so, will I be able to have duty positions within both squadrons? How does this work if possible?
I belong to a squadron two hours from where I live. There is currently another squadron about an hour from where I live. I have researched this on CAP Knowledgebase and Google but with no results so I turn to the CAPTalk community.
I raise this question because the squadron that I am at now (2 hours away) is a great squadron that I would like to remain a member of but I would save money driving to the other squadron (1.5 hours away) on occasion.
Any words of wisdom?
Thanks!
If your Group or Wing .. higher HQ does some appointing, I would imagine. IAOD is how you would show on the PA, but as far as who you are attached to - there's only one. Pick one.
Generally it's you are assigned to one and IAOD at another above or below, I've not come across parallel like that, on the PA anyway. As for helping out at other units, I've done that plenty of times.
Regulatiuons are not crystal clear on this. You can only be a member of one unit at a time.
There is nothing that prevents you with the concurrance of both commanders to do what you suggest.
As far as holding a duty position at more that one unit, it can be done. I know members who hold duty positions from region down to squadron levels as well as within multiple units. its not an issue as long as the assigning commander and your immediate commander concur.
I don't personally like this business of members serving say as a PAO at squadron, group and wing at the same time. You can only serve one "master" at a time, but its ok to help other people when they need it. I help out where I can but people understand who my boss is and if priorities conflict where my primary "loyalty" is.
FYI, CAP regulations do not provide for concepts like TDY and ADOD. Theese are convenient conventions created by members with some military experience but they do not apply to CAP. You are a member of one unit at a time and have a single immediate commander.
I've held duty positions in multiple squadrons. Another SQ/CC was having trouble with his Ops Quals stuff, so I had him temporarily appoint me as his Ops Officer so I could sort it out for him. No big deal, the temporary appointment expires automatically in 30 days. It didn't affect my membership in my main squadron.
Quote from: Flight Officer on October 04, 2010, 06:15:56 AMQuestion: Is it possible to be a member of two squadrons at once? If so, will I be able to have duty positions within both squadrons? How does this work if possible? Thanks!
It is not possible to be ASSIGNED in more than one place. However you may hold as many additional unit staff jobs in as many additional units as the joint commanders concur.
Eservices will only show you as a member of one unit - as you only have one set of records, and only one commander can approve personnel actions on you. However you will appear on the staff rosters of all the other ones as though you were actually assigned to those units. My own group headquarters, for example, only has the minimum number of members assigned to it - its fully staffed by IAOD people.
Can any of this apply to cadets?
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 04, 2010, 02:42:51 PM
Can any of this apply to cadets?
Officially no, since cadets can not be assigned senior staff positions. However if both CCs approve a cadet could assist another unit in a cadet staff slot.
A four-hour round trip to a unit meeting is not reasonable for the average member.
You best bet would be to transfer to the closer unit and then participate in other unit activities when time permits.
I don't see why it can't apply to cadets, though OTOH I don't see it applying to cadets nearly as much. Until it's obvious they're serious about the program and are at least Phase II, if not really IV, I just don't see cadets performing actual cadet staff duties at more than their own unit all that often.
Technically you can't be in two squadrons at once.
Having said that.....there should be no proble with you going TDY. It is done all the time. Get with the two squadron commanders and make sure that they are both on board with it. Make sure that YOU understand who your boss is and who signs off what (ES, Promotions, Etc).
But there is really no problem with you belonging to one squadron and helping out another.
As far as eservices (and NHQ) is concerned; you can NOT be am assigned member of two units.
However, you may associate yourself with as many squadrons as you wish. And, yes, this applies to cadets. When I went off to college, many decades ago, I was "associated" with the squadron meeting at the campus while still keeping my membership at my home squadron. Today, I associate at a wing unit, a local unit, my "home unit" and, anywhere else I may be of assistance.
Each unit commander has no problem giving me assignments and, I have no conflicts in keeping them.
BTW; your home unit commander is the one responsible for all your PD affairs. Make sure all your "official" documents go to your home unit.
Quote from: FW on October 04, 2010, 10:00:42 PMAs far as eservices (and NHQ) is concerned; you can NOT be an assigned member of two units. However, you may associate yourself with as many squadrons as you wish. Today, I associate at a wing unit, a local unit, my "home unit" and, anywhere else I may be of assistance.
I understand having a duty assignment at a different one than my home unit - I am not an actual member of group headquarters, just IAOD there - but I do not know of any formal way in CAP to be "attached" to another unit. Do you even need to be? Unless there is some special need to document the fact you were there I think it would just be a case of show up and attend activities as a guest. You should be able to do everything the regular members of that squadron are doing.
Even if there IS some way to officially attach you there your home unit chain of command has to actually do everything on you anyway.
I am considered a "member" at 2 different squadrons. I am on the roster for KS-001 as member of wing staff, but I attend meetings regularly at KS-125 because it is not only my original squadron but closer. KS-125 still calls me one of their cadets and I serve as a mentor and advisor whenever needed. I participate in as many activities for both squadrons that I can.
Just wondering, how is a C/Officer on wing staff?
Why not? Nothing I know about says it's not possible.
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 05, 2010, 12:19:38 AMJust wondering, how is a C/Officer on wing staff?
On the PA, I'm sure.
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 05, 2010, 12:19:38 AM
Just wondering, how is a C/Officer on wing staff?
It is an opportunity given to the Phase 4 (and some Phase 3) cadets in our wing. Most, if not all the cadets that we have on wing staff, have been C/CC at their squadrons and have held every position between basic and there. It gives us an opportunity to experience wing level preparation and enforcement and get better mentors. We serve as assistants and have senior members looking after us.
Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on October 05, 2010, 03:26:01 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 05, 2010, 12:19:38 AM
Just wondering, how is a C/Officer on wing staff?
It is an opportunity given to the Phase 4 (and some Phase 3) cadets in our wing. Most, if not all the cadets that we have on wing staff, have been C/CC at their squadrons and have held every position between basic and there. It gives us an opportunity to experience wing level preparation and enforcement and get better mentors. We serve as assistants and have senior members looking after us.
Once upon a time when I was a Cadet, I was on Wing Staff (ADY, in assistant positions) and also I was a 'fixer' in that certain units had me come in (TDY/ADY) and serve in the C/CC role for a while (perhaps a few/several months) and help develop their unit in a variety of different ways. My official 'membership' stayed at my home unit, but my focus was primarily in other roles.
This was after I was C/CC of my home unit and developed a variety of programs and as I was a C/Lt Col by the time I was 16, there was a point where I had BTDT and was looking to do more.
Currently at Group Hq, we are in the process of bringing on (ADY) a variety of Cadets to serve in Assistant roles, both on my CP staff and also as assistants to other Staff Officers.
My point to all of this is answering the question asked throughout this thread...
1) Yes, a member may be involved in more than one unit, but their membership must be parked somewhere.
2) Yes, this applies to Cadets as well, being involved with other units and also on higher echelon staff.
Quote from: CAPC/officer125 on October 05, 2010, 03:26:01 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 05, 2010, 12:19:38 AM
Just wondering, how is a C/Officer on wing staff?
It is an opportunity given to the Phase 4 (and some Phase 3) cadets in our wing. Most, if not all the cadets that we have on wing staff, have been C/CC at their squadrons and have held every position between basic and there. It gives us an opportunity to experience wing level preparation and enforcement and get better mentors. We serve as assistants and have senior members looking after us.
Fundamental misrepresentation.
You are not considered a member at 2 squadrons you are considered a member at KS125 with a job at Wing HQ.
You can have as many jobs as there are titles in 20-1 in as many units as there are charters all of these just take a stroke of a pen. But at the end of the day if the commander at your unit of assignment has a bad day and decides that you can't go play outside their sandbox they can prevent a lot of opportunities for you in your future should you not decide to put your toys somewhere else.
Quote from: IceNine on October 05, 2010, 04:56:20 AMYou are not considered a member at 2 squadrons you are considered a member at KS125 with a job at Wing HQ.
Actually, she is assigned to KS-001, which then prompts the question as to how she can actually continue to progress as a "cadet" (vs. a "mini senior").
Wing HQ's are not operational units, they are Headquarters components. As such they do not operate in the way that a cadet needs
to be considered "active" - no formations, other cadets to counsel and lead, just staff work and external responsibilities.
Not the place for a cadet - as a diamond you should be in a squadron giving back to the program by building the next generation of cadets.
I'd have no issue doing an ADY assignment as an assistant wing "whatever", but actual transfer does not seem appropriate, even for a Phase 4, and no way for a phase 3.
Eclipse
Mot True. Whe I was Wing DCP, I had several cadets on Wing staff assigned to FL-001. They were able to progress through the cadet program by taking achievement tests at Wing, or a Squadron. While they were in various Wing Staff assistant positions, they visited Squadrons in their home areas to mentor cadets or provide advise to Cadet Staffs. Keep in mind that when one of the Wing Staff Cadets visited a Squadron, they did so with the Squadron Commanders approval.
A Wing Headquarters level Squadron was formed, FL-002 to have Flights at several of the states Universities. This allowed the cadets while in college to remain active in CAP. Within an 18 month period, it produced more Spaatz Awards than the rest of the Region combined. (cadets were from various Wings and Regions besides from Florida.)
Quote from: Eclipse on October 05, 2010, 05:23:36 AM
Quote from: IceNine on October 05, 2010, 04:56:20 AMYou are not considered a member at 2 squadrons you are considered a member at KS125 with a job at Wing HQ.
Wing HQ's are not operational units, they are Headquarters components. As such they do not operate in the way that a cadet needs...
Actually, that is not true. The Wing "001" unit is
the operational unit of a wing. It is from this unit, all authority flows. As it's unit commander is the corporate officer, it may perform any duty for, it is possible (however improbable), this could be the only unit in the wing. (I won't bore you with details of phones ringing at 3am from AFRCC) ::)
It is the wing/cc's responsibility to see that cadets assigned to the "001" unit progress. I am sure that logistical problem was long ago solved by the KSWG.
Quote from: FW on October 05, 2010, 11:06:25 AMActually, that is not true. The Wing "001" unit is the operational unit of a wing. It is from this unit, all authority flows. As it's unit commander is the corporate officer, it may perform any duty for, it is possible (however improbable), this could be the only unit in the wing.
The ability to participate in missions and other activity is an anomaly of the organization not the design of a Wing or Group HQ.
The mission of the Wing HQ and Group HQ staff is the support of the units and all the administrivia and management that goes along with that. Do wing staffers get the 3am call? Should they be running out the door with an L-Per. No. I've had this discussion for years - by the time you're assigned to Wing, your job is making it possible for others to play.
Anecdotal successes notwithstanding, I maintain my opinion that cadets have no business being assigned to anything other than a squadron. Considering the issue many wings have with just CAC reps, I can't begin to imagine the attitudes engendered in a cadet
assigned to wing who is supposed to "mentor" other units.
Sure you can administer tests, and the respective cadet can check their boxes towards Spaatz, but that isn't really the point of the cadet program. There is no substitute for the experience, esprit-de-corps, and yes, conflict resolution when you're the "used to be, Phase 4 cadet" at your squadron.
Quote from: BillB on October 05, 2010, 09:42:13 AM
A Wing Headquarters level Squadron was formed, FL-002 to have Flights at several of the states Universities. This allowed the cadets while in college to remain active in CAP. Within an 18 month period, it produced more Spaatz Awards than the rest of the Region combined. (cadets were from various Wings and Regions besides from Florida.)
This is perhaps true, but is pretty much moot. Of course if you are going to start collecting active phase IV cadets into a single unit that you will start to have them earn the Spaatz.
^ Seriously, that is like saying there are more full-Colonels at the wing and Region levels.
Statistics ARE my friends after all!
"67% of statistics are made up 48% of the time"
Quote from: USAFaux2004 on October 06, 2010, 07:54:08 PM
Statistics ARE my friends after all!
"There are Lies, [darn] Lies, and STATISTICS"-anonymous
(http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/for0222l.jpg)
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 06, 2010, 07:55:08 PM
"67% of statistics are made up 48% of the time"
87% of all people know that!
Quote from: JeffDG on October 06, 2010, 10:52:53 PM
Quote from: HGjunkie on October 06, 2010, 07:55:08 PM
"67% of statistics are made up 48% of the time"
87% of all people know that!
48.3% of people who know believe it!
Drifting a bit, are we? ;)
Pot. Kettle. Black. You post about topic drifting, and you drift topics with spelling errors. LOL.
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Jack
I appreciate all of the feed back I have gotten from the CAPTalk community! :D
Luckily our good FO has the sense to see past the fun and find the nuggets of gold advice. :D
I'm in the same situation, except I want to start a squadron...
Quote from: DakRadz on October 11, 2010, 12:29:39 PM
Luckily our good FO has the sense to see past the fun and find the nuggets of gold advice. :D
I'm in the same situation, except I want to start a squadron...
That is outstanding to hear that you want to start a squadron. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't you a Cadet?
Would make no difference if he was a cadet. I started a Squadron when I was a cadet way back in history. It still exists. But the seniors wanted their own Squadron, so I helped them start that, while still a cadet. All he needs is three seniors to join to get started.
Quote from: BillB on October 11, 2010, 07:48:18 PM
Would make no difference if he was a cadet. I started a Squadron when I was a cadet way back in history. It still exists. But the seniors wanted their own Squadron, so I helped them start that, while still a cadet. All he needs is three seniors to join to get started.
That is actually where I was going with it. I wasn't saying he couldn't help in getting it started, but rather was going to offer comments as to him needing to find the required SMs, etc.
Cadets do not "start" or "run" squadrons.
If they are allowed to have the impression of either, the seniors involved are doing it wrong.
Yes, I am a cadet.
Eclipse: No, but a Lt Col who also lives in my area and also has to drive a goodly number of miles to the nearest squadron would certainly help me. And the big metal '30' on one of his ribbons contributes to the assumption he knows what he's doing; plus, I know him personally and he does.
I could easily get two more seniors. There are just a number of complications. I'm not sure if it's worth it or not- no reason to waste people's money and have it die.
I know I can't start the squadron, but I can certainly contribute, drive, and push to help make it happen. Cadets are kinda valuable when they get a fire lit under their six about something :D
Anyway, glad we cleared up the OP.
Quote from: DakRadz on October 11, 2010, 08:12:42 PM
Cadets are kinda valuable when they get a fire lit under their six about something :D
This also applies to activities outside of CAP. ;)
A cadet was very instrumental in starting a unit in this local area too. Certainly not unheard of.
In a sense, the unit may not have existed without that fire lit under someones posterior, driven either by themselves or externally, thats what it takes and it certainly can be said that if that person had not stood up to the task and kept that ball rolling, that unit might not exist. Sure, someone would/could have- but thats the point. Someone. Could be a cadet, could be a senior member. Sure, it takes senior members to sign for it. But cadets can do an awful lot of the footwork too.
There is nothing wrong with a cadet being the impetus of a new unit, the issue is that if a cadet is defacto in charge and is dragging 3 seniors kicking and screaming to fulfill the charter requirements, then the guidance, leadership, and occasional leash needed on "spirit" will be non-existent, leading to what we refer to as a "problem".
The likelihood of the unit living on past the initial cadre is slim as well.
Cadets are, by design, supposed to be immersed in the learning and experience of followership, not the minutia and pressure of running a unit. They should be able to show up and "do" for most, if not all, of their cadet careers. If that can't be provided locally, perhaps CAP is not the best choice in that area.
Lt Col was the one who actually suggested it... I want to do it, with his support, but I don't know that it will be viable. Multitudes of reasons- therefor, I am not pursuing it.
Erm... Lt Col would definitely be in charge.
I think that covers it- I don't think you were specifically addressing my situation, but just to clear the air.