Plastic encased grade insignia

[Rotorhead]

I'm looking for the latest info on these, specifically if they are or are not authorized for use on flight suits.

39-1 says they are; but Hock Shop told one of our guys that that's an old reg and plastic-encased grade insignia are no longer authorized; he said cloth was now authorized.

Can someone direct me to the latest directive, if 39-1 is indeed out of date?

[IceNine]

There are 2 different flight suits.

The sage green one which still uses plastic encased insignia

And the Navy Blue one whice uses embroidered insignia.

Search "flight suit" in 39-1 for guidance on the green one.

And look at the change letter 1/25/08 for the blue one.

[Rotorhead]

There are 2 different flight suits.

The sage green one which still uses plastic encased insignia

And the Navy Blue one whice uses embroidered insignia.

Search "flight suit" in 39-1 for guidance on the green one.

And look at the change letter 1/25/08 for the blue one.

So Hock's answer was "sort of true," depending. Got it.

[IceNine]

They must have just missed the little part that says "embroidered insignia authorized on CAP distinctive flightsuits"

[Eclipse]

There are 2 different flight suits.

Until 28 February there are three:

Green - only thing authorized is plastic encased.

Dark blue - will be bright insignia on dark blue embroidered

Ultramarine  blue - can be either plastic encased or bright on ultramarine blue embroidered.

What I love is that some outdated KB answers say that the ultramarine blue flight suit is already unauthorized for wear.
http://www.cap.gov/documents/NB_Winter_06_Uniforms_Policy_Letterpdf.pdf

Also, the dark blue non-Nomex utility jumpsuit is bright insignia on dark blue embroidered.

[O-Rex]

Has anyone seen the new plastic-encased rank from Vanguard?

I guess the old stock form way back when was finally depleated, and they needed to find another manufacturer in a pinch.

It's pretty hard to screw up Lt and Capt's rank, so I imagine they should be okay, but the Major and Lt. Col's look real chintsy; looks like something out of a toy 'soldiers playset' that you would find in a dollar-store.

[KyCAP]

I thought the same thing...

[MikeD]

Any word on if/when cloth will be authorized on the green flightsuits?

[SarDragon]

Any word on if/when cloth will be authorized on the green flightsuits?

Well, Hell (MI) is already frozen over, so there must be another benchmark to look for.

[Pylon]

Any word on if/when cloth will be authorized on the green flightsuits?

Why would it need to be changed?  Plastic insignia is available from a supplier.  It has been working just fine for CAP members for years upon years.   Why make every CAP member change their insignia (and squadrons and Vanguard and Hock lose out on all the plastic insignia they have in stock) just to make a change for the sake of change? 

If there's a quality issue with one of the grade insignia, you address the manufacturer's quality issue... not make everyone in the organization change to a new insignia. 

[Hawk200]

.... but the Major and Lt. Col's look real chintsy; looks like something out of a toy 'soldiers playset' that you would find in a dollar-store.

Does it not look like the picture on the Vanguard website? Those look OK, or is that an "enhanced" picture or something?

Why would it need to be changed?  Plastic insignia is available from a supplier.  It has been working just fine for CAP members for years upon years.   Why make every CAP member change their insignia (and squadrons and Vanguard and Hock lose out on all the plastic insignia they have in stock) just to make a change for the sake of change? 

It's been hard to get for what, over a year? It doesn't work if people just can't get the stuff. Doesn't work all that well when it costs us more than it should. We could get cloth for probably a dollar per pair. At my current rank, it would cost me $7.70 for one pair of rank insignia. Even if it cost $1.50/pair for cloth, I could get four, and still have a little change for my next soda.

It would be rather simple. Tell the Air Force, "Hey, we'd like cloth sew-on rank for our flightsuits, cause it's cheaper, easier to maintain, and would look better. We've got a couple of ideas. Our insignia manufatcurer has materials that would adapt easily. Would that be OK?"

Granted, there would be a few people that would immediately go sewing on the new cloth, because it's the latest and greatest. To minimize cost, do a phase out through attrition, or make it optional. Replacement is permitted, but not required. No mandatory expense. You promote, replace your old plastic with cloth. No muss, no fuss, no filthy bathtub soap scum. It would be a lot easier to sew on, too.

[MikeD]

It's been hard to get for what, over a year? It doesn't work if people just can't get the stuff. Doesn't work all that well when it costs us more than it should.
<snip>

To minimize cost, do a phase out through attrition, or make it optional. Replacement is permitted, but not required. No mandatory expense. You promote, replace your old plastic with cloth. No muss, no fuss, no filthy bathtub soap scum. It would be a lot easier to sew on, too.

Pretty much exactly what I was thinking.

[Pylon]

It's been hard to get for what, over a year? It doesn't work if people just can't get the stuff.

People really love playing that up. It's not hard to get now. The situation has been fixed for months on end.  Plastic insignia is available now. If you order it now, it ships right away. The argument no longer works.   Next.

Doesn't work all that well when it costs us more than it should. We could get cloth for probably a dollar per pair. At my current rank, it would cost me $7.70 for one pair of rank insignia. Even if it cost $1.50/pair for cloth, I could get four, and still have a little change for my next soda.

Well, if the sole reason to start changing existing uniform items is cost, then we should replace all existing NB, NEC and Specialty Badges with cloth embroidered ones we can just tack on to our shirts.  Let's all switch to the new 2-line corporate nameplates because the 3-line nameplates cost more.  We shouldn't wear mini-medals on mess dress (they're $7 each!), we should just wear regular ribbons because they're cheaper and more practical.  We also should replace costly cadet grade insignia with stickers.   Spaatz cadets get three gold stickers.  Yay!  Everything's cheap!

It would be rather simple. Tell the Air Force, "Hey, we'd like cloth sew-on rank for our flightsuits, cause it's cheaper, easier to maintain, and would look better. We've got a couple of ideas. Our insignia manufatcurer has materials that would adapt easily. Would that be OK?"

It's not that simple.  National CAP has been bombarding the Air Force with proposals... ABUs... Outerwear... Hawk and NBB bling on the BDUs... new badges, new ribbons, new medals...  the NB has already received over a dozen proposed agenda items on uniforms for the upcoming NB meeting.  It's not just a "Hey, we were thinking of changing this one thing..."  CAP can't STOP tweaking uniforms for the sake of tweaking our uniforms.  We need to STOP making random, minor changes to our uniforms unless there is a COMPELLING reason.

To minimize cost, do a phase out through attrition, or make it optional. Replacement is permitted, but not required. No mandatory expense. You promote, replace your old plastic with cloth. No muss, no fuss, no filthy bathtub soap scum.

Except we don't do things that way.  We set a phase-out date by which everyone has to comply. Otherwise you end up with even LESS uniformity than we have now.  Complete lack of uniformity among any given group of CAP members is already a problem, having two different types of insignia in use for an open-ended amount of time isn't going to help.   The problem with your model is that there are people who never promote... there are literally people with more time in their current grade of 1st Lt or Capt than I've had time on this planet.  And then you have the hoards of career CAP members who are capped at Lt Col and Col and might serve another 5, 10, 15 or 20 years without a promotion.

So by making a uniform change (this type has be mandatory) we require thousands of members to toss out thousands of the $7 plastic insignia, go out and buy new $1.50 insignia (and pay shipping) and sew it on because, somewhere down the line, someone will eventually save money.

It would be a lot easier to sew on, too.

It's actually not easier at all.  Not in the least bit.  

Plastic insignia: use a needle to poke a hole in the four corners, place one stitch through each of the four corners.  Double-stitch it if you want to be safe.  Done.   This has worked on all my flight suits and jackets and held up for years.

Cloth Insignia:  Fold under the edges until you get the prescribed 1/8" border (though undoubtedly many members will jack this up and have all sorts of varying border sizes like they do on BDUs), crease the edges, machine-stitch the entire thing all the way around (and remember that you're sewing through two to three layers of the cloth insignia when folded, plus the flight suit).  Remember to replace your insignia when the white embroidery starts to get dirty from the elements or starts to fray from wear, washing, seat harness rubbing, etc.

[Hawk200]

People really love playing that up. It's not hard to get now. The situation has been fixed for months on end.  Plastic insignia is available now. If you order it now, it ships right away. The argument no longer works.   Next.

It was hard to get six months ago. Might be six months from now. Guarantee me that I will never have a problem getting them again, and I'll buy your "The argument no longer works."

Well, if the sole reason to start changing existing uniform items is cost, then we should replace all existing NB, NEC and Specialty Badges with cloth embroidered ones we can just tack on to our shirts.  Let's all switch to the new 2-line corporate nameplates because the 3-line nameplates cost more.  We shouldn't wear mini-medals on mess dress (they're $7 each!), we should just wear regular ribbons because they're cheaper and more practical.  We also should replace costly cadet grade insignia with stickers.   Spaatz cadets get three gold stickers.  Yay!  Everything's cheap!

Yeah, sure, let's go from practical reasons to utterly ridiculous concepts. Do you really think that's the best way to get your point across?

It's not that simple.  National CAP has been bombarding the Air Force with proposals... ABUs... Outerwear... Hawk and NBB bling on the BDUs... new badges, new ribbons, new medals...  the NB has already received over a dozen proposed agenda items on uniforms for the upcoming NB meeting.  It's not just a "Hey, we were thinking of changing this one thing..."  

Fine, let's do the same thing the Air Force does. Have a Uniform Board that weighs the benefits against the costs. Lose the Gold Sticker for everybody, catering to the lowest common denominator, and go with stuff that has meaning. We have all this crap because many want to feel special without working for anything. Actually, an issue with society, but not one we should be adopting.

CAP can't STOP tweaking uniforms for the sake of tweaking our uniforms.  

Agreed.

We need to STOP making random, minor changes to our uniforms unless there is a COMPELLING reason.

Don't know what you consider compelling reason if saving some money isn't. This time it costs me $7.70 for my rank insignia. Next time it costs me $8. Time after that, $8. $23.70, total. Might take a few years, but it is still an expense. Cloth, at even $2/ set equals $6. I don't care if it takes five years, it's still a savings. Is the simple math too simple? Or is it a matter of the amount? How many zeroes behind the number does it take to become compelling? If it has to be high amounts to considered such, I think I'd like to trade wallets with you.

Except we don't do things that way.  We set a phase-out date by which everyone has to comply. Otherwise you end up with even LESS uniformity than we have now.  Complete lack of uniformity among any given group of CAP members is already a problem, having two different types of insignia in use for an open-ended amount of time isn't going to help.   The problem with your model is that there are people who never promote... there are literally people with more time in their current grade of 1st Lt or Capt than I've had time on this planet.  And then you have the hoards of career CAP members who are capped at Lt Col and Col and might serve another 5, 10, 15 or 20 years without a promotion.

So by making a uniform change (this type has be mandatory) we require thousands of members to toss out thousands of the $7 plastic insignia, go out and buy new $1.50 insignia (and pay shipping) and sew it on because, somewhere down the line, someone will eventually save money.

Phase the stuff out, and nobody will be buying it in the first place. You would have people spending more on replacements. Go ahead, lie to me, tell me that plastic will never need replacing.

It's actually not easier at all.  Not in the least bit.  

Plastic insignia: use a needle to poke a hole in the four corners, place one stitch through each of the four corners.  Double-stitch it if you want to be safe.  Done.   This has worked on all my flight suits and jackets and held up for years.

Cloth Insignia:  Fold under the edges until you get the prescribed 1/8" border (though undoubtedly many members will jack this up and have all sorts of varying border sizes like they do on BDUs), crease the edges, machine-stitch the entire thing all the way around (and remember that you're sewing through two to three layers of the cloth insignia when folded, plus the flight suit).  Remember to replace your insignia when the white embroidery starts to get dirty from the elements or starts to fray from wear, washing, seat harness rubbing, etc.

I've hand sewn several dozen insignia on various uniforms. The plastic was the hardest. It is ridiculous to even think that sewing through an eighth inch of plastic is easier than three layers of cloth. Did you even think about that, or were you so determined to argue the point that the simple facts went out the window? Just because you sewed it in a manner you consider "good enough", doesn't make it easier.

Also worth mentioning is the fact that the thread looks wrong through plastic. It looks better with cloth insignia.

But, let's look at the "replace your insignia" concept. Plastic turns yellow with age. Period. It's an indisputable fact. It will scratch, too. If it does either, you replace it. Otherwise, you show no respect to the uniform. You'd have people spending more for each new set of insignia, either by replacement or promotion. But to read your justifications, that is acceptable for the purpose of avoiding change. If we keep that up, then nothing ever goes out, things just keep getting added on.

Ever wonder why the Air Force changed from plastic to cloth? Had to be a good reason. Don't tell me that the Air Force's reasons don't apply, it is the same plastic insignia, nothing different.  Must have been a good reason for an organization that has probably had more aircrew wearing those insignia that CAP has had members at any given time.

[O-Rex]

.... but the Major and Lt. Col's look real chintsy; looks like something out of a toy 'soldiers playset' that you would find in a dollar-store.

Does it not look like the picture on the Vanguard website? Those look OK, or is that an "enhanced" picture or something?

Why would it need to be changed?  Plastic insignia is available from a supplier.  It has been working just fine for CAP members for years upon years.   Why make every CAP member change their insignia (and squadrons and Vanguard and Hock lose out on all the plastic insignia they have in stock) just to make a change for the sake of change? 

It's been hard to get for what, over a year? It doesn't work if people just can't get the stuff. Doesn't work all that well when it costs us more than it should. We could get cloth for probably a dollar per pair. At my current rank, it would cost me $7.70 for one pair of rank insignia. Even if it cost $1.50/pair for cloth, I could get four, and still have a little change for my next soda.

It would be rather simple. Tell the Air Force, "Hey, we'd like cloth sew-on rank for our flightsuits, cause it's cheaper, easier to maintain, and would look better. We've got a couple of ideas. Our insignia manufatcurer has materials that would adapt easily. Would that be OK?"

Granted, there would be a few people that would immediately go sewing on the new cloth, because it's the latest and greatest. To minimize cost, do a phase out through attrition, or make it optional. Replacement is permitted, but not required. No mandatory expense. You promote, replace your old plastic with cloth. No muss, no fuss, no filthy bathtub soap scum. It would be a lot easier to sew on, too.

No, Vanguard uses an older stock photo of the plastic-encased rank: reminds me of the old REMCO toys (anyone remember those??) whatever you got looked great on picture on the box it came in, but the quality of what was inside was horrible.

Tell you what; the price of plastic encased rank has nearly doubled since I joined CAP 10 years ago.  If you have a couple of flightsuits and a jacket, its like $25 (along with rank for the other costumes.) 

"Yo, Rex, aren't you due for promotion?"

"Yeah, I'm saving up for it." 

I too would like to see cloth in white/yellow on green, not to look more USAFish, but for practicality: cloth looks and works great on the blue flightsuits/utilities, easy to sew, low-maint, none of that icky condensation on warm days, yadda-yadda.  Besides, USAF has gone to subdued on gray sew-on anyway.

FL Wing Conf is next week: I don't even know if Vanguard is coming FYI, is costs your wing an arm and a leg to invite them, and even then what's most of what's offered are "closeout specials,"  you know, like the logo water bottle, carabiner with compass, coasters, CAP throw-blankets and other highly sought-after mission essential tidbits. 

[heliodoc]

CAP should have changed the "plastic encased" CRAP and followed suit with AF and other RM sew ons

Sure it costs somethin...so do the chintzy banana republic ribbons we wear.. guess one has to pick what's more important rank or ribbons and as I recall ribbons are optional

Most of the folks I know in the sewing biz thinks the plastic is a joke, too

Sew ons latest and greatest??  Only in CAP maybe  RM?? been around for years... Doesn't CAP look up to the RM for guidance and reason??

Just like the suede issue boots and flight boots.... The old tradition of polishing boots is "nearly" gone with those things and CAP with sew ons ought to see that a little practical change helps..

[RiverAux]

Never liked this item.  Hard to sew on and hard to sew on so it looks good.  Have trouble with them catching on things every now and again.  Can't believe anyone ever thought they were a good idea either for the AF or for CAP. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I have had Air Force officers question my uniform and ask why I'm wearing "Outdated insignia."  I usually make a sarcastic comment that CAP is allowed to wear outdated insignia because our planes still have propellers.

But really... I'm a little tired of it.  We should be in synch with the rest of the US military world and go to sew-on embroidered insignia.  Losing the leather name badge wouldn't hurt, either.

[JayT]

I have had Air Force officers question my uniform and ask why I'm wearing "Outdated insignia."  I usually make a sarcastic comment that CAP is allowed to wear outdated insignia because our planes still have propellers.

But really... I'm a little tired of it.  We should be in synch with the rest of the US military world and go to sew-on embroidered insignia.  Losing the leather name badge wouldn't hurt, either.

How can it be 'outdated' if it's out authorized insignia?

If you showed up with embroided, it would be 'unathorized.'

[dbarbee]

There are 2 different flight suits.

Until 28 February there are three:

Green - only thing authorized is plastic encased.

Dark blue - will be bright insignia on dark blue embroidered

Ultramarine  blue - can be either plastic encased or bright on ultramarine blue embroidered.

What I love is that some outdated KB answers say that the ultramarine blue flight suit is already unauthorized for wear.
http://www.cap.gov/documents/NB_Winter_06_Uniforms_Policy_Letterpdf.pdf

Also, the dark blue non-Nomex utility jumpsuit is bright insignia on dark blue embroidered.

What is the reference authorizing bright insignia for the Dark Blue Flight Suit & Blue Utility Uniform? All I can find authorized is  plastic-encased & embroidered (39-1 Change Letter 25Jan08)

By bright insignia, do you mean metallic, non-plastic encased?