Silver Medal of Valor

[BillB]

  
Each of the military services has their highest award as a neck drape award. Ithought CAP should do the same for the Silver medal of Valor. I found someone else came up with this idea on the internet. (forget where I found it. What do you think?>

[Gunner C]

 
Each of the military services has their highest award as a neck drape award. Ithought CAP should do the same for the Silver medal of Valor. I found someone else came up with this idea on the internet. (forget where I found it. What do you think?>

In a word, No.  Equating SMOV with the MOH is a real streatch.

[Hawk200]

The Medal of Honor is the highest award for the military, there are just different variations of the physical medal for different branches (the differences are slight, but do exist).

Considering what the Medal of Honor is awarded for, I don't think it would be wise for CAP to follow suit just to have a neck decoration.

[Stonewall]

I don't think it's being compared to the MOH other than the fact that it is our highest award (for valor), just like the MOH is.  That's the only similarity.

I personally don't think it would be a bad idea, but limited on when it can be worn; perhaps only in Mess Dress or the cadet's equivalent.

The MOH is worn/displayed in three different ways.

1.  Medal worn around the neck.
2.  Ribbon on a ribbon rack.
3.  Rosary pin on the lapel of civilian attire.

It's hard to see in this scanned photo, but this is one of my former cadets with Col Roger Donlon (Ret).  We had a CAP display set up in the Ft. Belvoir PX where we were selling the CAP Christmas ornaments and I noticed the MOH Rosary on his lapel.  I asked if he would come speak to our cadets and he did.  I then explained that when I was in 8th grade and in CAP myself, I wrote a biography on him for an English assignment.  Very cool.

Note:  That cadet is now a Captain in the Army and completed SFAS (Officer Honor Grad).

[James Shaw]

In a word, No.  Equating SMOV with the MOH is a real streatch.

I agree 100% . Even as a recipient I would never equate the SMV with the MOH. In no way shape form or fashion. The only remote relationship is they are both the top decoration for their respective organizations. I did some looking around and found some other examples on the internet and even those for sale on ebay.

[Stonewall]

I think it is irrelevant to compare the two awards (MOH vs SMV).  An organization can create and display their awards any way they choose, as long as there aren't any legal guidelines forbidding such a display.

Public Safety agencies and foreign military's all have some sort of "highest award" for valor.  Who is tell anyone organization how to display their awards?  No one.  It is CAP right (with the blessing of the AF I suppose) to have an option for SMV recipients to have their medal worn in this fashion.  That's like comparing the Master Ground Team Badge to Master Parachutist Badge and where both are worn; above the ribbons.  The GTM and jump wings have nothing in common other than they are worn above ribbons and they are a badge.

The SMV is not so prevailant that thousands of recipients are going to be walking around the street showing them off and embarrassing the award.  There should be a SMV option to wear it around the neck with guidelines just like every other piece of uniform we have; when and where to wear it.

The MOH is worn as a ribbon as well.  Does that mean we shouldn't have a ribbon for the SMV?

[Flying Pig]

I think there is something to be mentioned about the one photo with the Distinguished Service Cross.  If Im not mistaken, that is something the Army does only at the time it is awarded at the ceremony.  From that time on, it is not worn around the neck.  Because the Navy Cross and Air Force Cross are not worn around the neck at all. When its awarded, its clipped to your pocket flap of your jacket.  Same with the Legion of Merit. After it is awarded, its rarely if ever worn around the neck again after that.

[James Shaw]

My suggestions would be!

Corporate Uniform only (not the AF style jacket)
CAP Mess Dress (either neck drape or mini medal but not both.)
Blazer Combo

[Stonewall]

If Im not mistaken, that is something the Army does only at the time it is awarded at the ceremony.  From that time on, it is not worn around the neck. 

That is correct.  That is the first time I've seen a medal other than the MOH awarded that way, and I have attended a lot of award ceremonies for high level awards.

[swamprat86]

Having run a couple of marathons and other similar events where medals are worn around the neck, I wouldn't wear it after the initial award if presented.  

They swing and dangle, getting in the way.

It looks good from a presentation standpoint and then they can put it in a shadow box with the certificate and hang it on the wall.  Wear the ribbon, metal, or mini as uniform and policy dictates.

I only wear my full size BMOV on special occasions when not in uniform.  As with many of us, I  did the action because it was what I should have done, not because I thought I would get a medal.  So I am not very showy about it.

[Stonewall]

I only wear my full size BMOV on special occasions when not in uniform.  As with many of us, I  did the action because it was what I should have done, not because I thought I would get a medal.  So I am not very showy about it.

That's the thing, even in the "Real Military" MOH recipients generally only wear the medal around their neck at special functions while in formal attire and sometimes in their version of "Class A's".  No one is suggesting they wear the SMV/BMV in short-sleeve blues, with BDUs, or their Golf Shirt to meetings or air shows, but I think it would be appropriate, if the recipient chooses to, to wear it at formal events.  The ribbon is for "every day" wear, while the medal itself is reserved for special occasions.

No one is debating why someone acted heroically or why they were awarded the medal.  I think we over do it when it comes to doing something like the regular military does things.  Like it's a faux paux to mimic how something is done because someone else does it. 

[swamprat86]

That's the thing, even in the "Real Military" MOH recipients generally only wear the medal around their neck at special functions while in formal attire and sometimes in their version of "Class A's".  No one is suggesting they wear the SMV/BMV in short-sleeve blues, with BDUs, or their Golf Shirt to meetings or air shows, but I think it would be appropriate, if the recipient chooses to, to wear it at formal events.  The ribbon is for "every day" wear, while the medal itself is reserved for special occasions.

No one is debating why someone acted heroically or why they were awarded the medal.  I think we over do it when it comes to doing something like the regular military does things.  Like it's a faux paux to mimic how something is done because someone else does it. 

I agree, but I think that some people may be looking at this as an attempt for awardees to show off.

[Stonewall]

I agree, but I think that some people may be looking at this as an attempt for awardees to show off.

Can't make everyone happy.  Sometimes you just have to let people think what they think; assume what they assume.

[IceNine]

I personally like the idea of creating this thing if for no other reason than the award ceremony, they wear it till they get back to their room and then it goes in a shadow box.

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing this worn with mess dress for sure, but I don't have any specific reservations about it being worn with service dress either.

I do have one question though.

All of the other "valor" medals pictured above have a blue neck (strap?), is there something to that or is that just because the MOH has one and they followed suit?

[Cecil DP]

In a word, No.  Equating SMOV with the MOH is a real stretch.

I agree 100% . Even as a recipient I would never equate the SMV with the MOH. In no way shape form or fashion. The only remote relationship is they are both the top decoration for their respective organizations. I did some looking around and found some other examples on the internet and even those for sale on ebay.

The criteria for the SMV is more akin to the Airman's or Soldiers Medal. The BMV would probably equate to that of a Commendation Medal for heroism.

[Flying Pig]

I personally like the idea of creating this thing if for no other reason than the award ceremony, they wear it till they get back to their room and then it goes in a shadow box.

I wouldn't be opposed to seeing this worn with mess dress for sure, but I don't have any specific reservations about it being worn with service dress either.

I do have one question though.

All of the other "valor" medals pictured above have a blue neck (strap?), is there something to that or is that just because the MOH has one and they followed suit?

The neck strap is generally the dominant color of the ribbon.

I could see it used for the awards ceremony, then a nice way to display it in a shadow box after that.

[Pylon]

Strong non-concur.  I think it's just aggrandizing an award for no particular purpose.  It's already a prominent and prestigious award.  It doesn't need to be a neck order to be prestigious.   The award has existed just fine as a medal since its inception.

I also think it would move our awards system further award from mirroring our parent service than bringing us closer in line.  As well, I think it would give those outside (and even inside) CAP further fodder for looking at us as poseurs and wannabes.  I don't think we need any more flair or "look at me" stuff than we already have; in fact, I think we need a lot less of that type of stuff.

[O-Rex]

Been a long time since I made an impassioned post, but sometimes a topic strikes a nerve. . . . .

Given the criteria, the SMV is roughly the equivalent of the services life-saving medals under non-combat conditions, and NOT the Medal of Honor.

I can appreciate and respect the actions of those brave CAP members who risked life and limb to save others **BUT** MOH's are awarded for actions performed in a hail of bullets or other thingies specially-made to ruin your day.  They are often awarded in conjunction with a Purple Heart, and all too-often pinned to a flag-draped casket, or to the Servicemember who was medically retired for injuries sustained while earning the medal.

I have read all the MOH narratives, and was truly humbled and moved by the actions listed therein.  To put these two awards in the same category could be considered an affront to many, and belies the sense of perspective and humility under which we, as CAP Members should serve.

To those in dire need of a reality-check, let me offer an unsolicited "you're welcome."

[lordmonar]

I think we have opened up another one of those "CAP RANGERS" discussions.

1.  The only comparison anyone made about the SMV and the MOH is that they were both the top awards of our respective organisations.......end of comparison.  The BSA Eagle Award is like the MOH in the same way.

2.  The idea that as the top award someone would want a way to make it stand out at formal/ceremonial functions is exactly in line with what our parent service does.

3.  I hate the idea as presented.  If we made the neck ribbon the same color as the current ribbon that would be okay...but that red just drives me up the wall.

4.  For the record....not all MOHs are awarded for "actions performed in a hail of bullets of thingies specially-made to ruin your day."....yes most of them are....but that just goes back to my point 1....the only comparison is that the SMV and MOH are the top awards....end of comparison.  If we used this thinking then we have to evaluate every organisation that uses a neck type decoration against MOH criteria.

Also for the record the MOH is not the only military decoration that has a neck ribbon.  And a lot of other organisations use neck hangers for their top valor awards.....FDNY, NYPD, LAPD, LVFD are just a few right off the top of my head who's top awards are neck decorations.  Anyone want to call them possers?

5.  I see no need to make a change....but would not oppose except I don't like the color of the neck ribbon.

[Flying Pig]

Ive worked for 3 law enforcement agencies, and every one of them presents all their medals with a neck strap.   But after the ceremony, the award is never worn again around the neck.  You usually get a small metal pin to wear on your pocket flap.

I dont think anyone would give it a second thought if we awarded the medal in that manner. 

[Eclipse]

The BSA Eagle Award is like the MOH in the same way.

Eagle = Spaatz in this context.

It is not for valor or special action but for cumulative and objective achievements.

Every new cadet can be a Spaatz, every new scout can be an Eagle.

Not every CAP member can get an SMV any more than every Airman could get a MOH.

Otherwise, neckstrap, no neckstrap, makes no difference to me, we'll get negative comparisons no matter what we do, so our best bet is to do what is best for us and ignore the comparisons to other services.

[PlaneFlyr]

There are plenty of examples of neck-worn valor medals, so the MoH isn't unique in that regard.  Even within the USAF, you have the AFC as a neck device.  Of course a recipient typically would were the ribbon for day-to-day activities, just like most MoH recipients.  Most miliatary/organizational neck-drape medals are reserved for the highest honor(s) within that organization, which is what the SMV/BMV are for CAP.  So from a historical standpoint, I don't see any reason it couldn't be approved as a neck device.

Most of the negatives about it seem to be a stature issue.  I haven't seen anybody trying to equate our SMV/BMV with the MoH in stature.  The ribbon color alone would distinguish this from the MoH, so I can't see anyone confusing the two.    Even if the correct ribbon were used for the long portion (my wife says custom ribbon has to be purchased 100 yds at a time, and costs about $700, so I understand why the one in the photos uses plain red) it'll still be distinct.

Overall I think it's a good looking piece.  If it were an approved item, I'd be proud to wear one.

[PlaneFlyr]

Been a long time since I made an impassioned post, but sometimes a topic strikes a nerve. . . . .

Given the criteria, the SMV is roughly the equivalent of the services life-saving medals under non-combat conditions, and NOT the Medal of Honor.

I can appreciate and respect the actions of those brave CAP members who risked life and limb to save others **BUT** MOH's are awarded for actions performed in a hail of bullets or other thingies specially-made to ruin your day.  They are often awarded in conjunction with a Purple Heart, and all too-often pinned to a flag-draped casket, or to the Servicemember who was medically retired for injuries sustained while earning the medal.

I have read all the MOH narratives, and was truly humbled and moved by the actions listed therein.  To put these two awards in the same category could be considered an affront to many, and belies the sense of perspective and humility under which we, as CAP Members should serve.

To those in dire need of a reality-check, let me offer an unsolicited "you're welcome."

Actually, there have been posthumous CAP SMV awards as well. 

[Stonewall]

Like I said, and PlaneFlyr touched on, the second poster (Gunner C) made this discussion a comparison of the SMV vs the MOH.

That is not what this thread is about.  I think everyone can agree that the SMV is not the MOH.  Can we get over this?  Please?

That said, sure there are some similarities:

1.  They are both awards for Valor.
2.  They are both worn as ribbons on a "ribbon rack".
3.  They are both the highest awards that can be earned for a specific service/organization.

By the argument that so many are giving, by comparing it to the MOH, the same argument could be used for every CAP and military award.  The Army Commendation Medal is a ribbon and a medal that can be worn on your chest.  So is the CAP Commander's Commendation Medal.  Same thing, right.  Both have the word "commendation" in them and both are similar in many ways.  So why don't the same people that are so hell bent on comparing the SMV to the MOH argue the points between other medals?  Simply put, it's a moot point.

Many folks here need to get over the whole fear of offending people who R_E_A_L_L_Y earned something in the "Real Military".  I have met several MOH recipients.  I can guarantee you that none of them, NONE, would be the least bit insulted sitting next to a CAP SMV recipient with their SMV around their neck, just like a MOH recipient wore.

And again, it is all a moot point because with guidelines on the wear/display of the SMV neck medal, it would only be worn for specific events under certain conditions.  Like I said before, it's not like someone would show up in their CAP Golf Shirt with this thing around their neck.

Bottom line, it isn't a big deal.  No one would be offended because there is no comparison to the MOH.  Different medals that are both awarded for valor; one in can only be earned in combat for the military, the other for risking your butt and saving the life of a fellow human while a member in CAP.

[Timbo]

How about just NO.  We do not need more blingage, we need to eliminate as much as we can.  Some members already look like clowns.  Lets lose the "look at me, I am better than you" mentality, and shift our efforts to the mindset of "let me help you fellow member".

[Stonewall]

How about just NO.  We do not need more blingage, we need to eliminate as much as we can.  Some members already look like clowns.  Lets lose the "look at me, I am better than you" mentality, and shift our efforts to the mindset of "let me help you fellow member".

Any other time I would agree with you here.  But in this case, I don't think an extremely small percentage of CAP members at very specific functions would be an issue at all.  It's not like a huge ridiculous "Pluto patch" on BDUs or a gawdy wing patch, it is something prestigious without any hokey story behind it.

I am a huge anti-bling guy.  I can't stand it when senior members wear ribbons on short-sleeve blues.  But this is a very tiny piece of what CAP has that equates to something great and you do not take a weekend course, AFAIDL course, or send in two box tops to get it.  No matter what type of person you are, how old, how big, small or how much training you have under your belt, the SMV/BMV indicate that you have risked your life to preserve another.  I don't think it would be so wrong to have a prominent means to display that valor on specific occasions in a specific uniform.

[M.S.]

If you're anti-bling, then don't advocate for more bling which has no basis in the award's history.

It's not like a huge ridiculous "Pluto patch" on BDUs or a gawdy wing patch, it is something prestigious without any hokey story behind it.

Disagree.  No offense to the few SMV recipients here, but a lot of the stories behind some of the SMV's seem pretty average to me.  Actual examples include awarding of the SMV for directing traffic at a car accident scene, using a fire extinguisher on an aircraft's landing gear that was on fire, dozens of SMVs for moving a person out of a burning car and so on/  (Cars don't really "blow up" like the do on TV)  A great number of SMVs are awarded for people's actions outside of any CAP context whatsoever.  In fact SMVs are awarded to CAP members who are law enforcement and EMTs for doing what they get paid to do during their duties as an EMT or law enforcement officer.  For one example, the SMV was given to a CAP member who, while on duty as a deputy sheriff, and responding to a call went into a smoke filled apartment and carried the person out. 

I don't even see why CAP even recognizes actions outside of CAP.  I think they're noteworthy actions-- I'm not saying they aren't.  Kudos to the people who did those things.  But shouldn't the Sheriff's department, or ambulance company recognize the person for actions performed as a member of their organization?  Or the community in which the action took place?  Why would "Civil Air Patrol" recognize those actions with a Civil Air Patrol decoration just because the person also happened to have a current membership with CAP when they performed the action?   Shouldn't CAP be recognizing actions there were performed while the member was acting for CAP?

[Stonewall]

If you're anti-bling, then don't advocate for more bling which has no basis in the award's history.

Well, then lets get rid of patches, badges, ribbons and uniforms all together.

Disagree.  No offense to the few SMV recipients here, but a lot of the stories behind some of the SMV's seem pretty average to me.  Actual examples include awarding of the SMV for directing traffic at a car accident scene, using a fire extinguisher on an aircraft's landing gear that was on fire,...

There are bogus "stories" behind a lot of heros.  The MOH was awarded as a reenlistment bonus during the Civil War.  That's why you'll see several people from that time period with two awards...one was for herosim, the other for reenlisting.  But the legitimate actions of someone who has earned the SMV should be recognized.

Don't think that I'm sitting here thinking of this crap.  I don't care either way as I am not an SMV/BMV recipient, but someone presented a question asking for our thoughts and this whole thing turned into a huge MOH vs SMV debate. 

No service has more "bling" than the US Army, yet everyone is cool with their highest medal for valor being worn around the neck.  Personally for me, I think it would be cool for CAP too.

[Eclipse]

(Cars don't really "blow up" like the do on TV) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uXeC39ut_8

[Flying Pig]

In my experience, what blows up is the shocks and the bumpers and the tires.

[swamprat86]

...and gas containers in the truck bed.

[Cecil DP]

There are bogus "stories" behind a lot of heros.  The MOH was awarded as a reenlistment bonus during the Civil War.  That's why you'll see several people from that time period with two awards...one was for herosim, the other for reenlisting.

In 1912 the War Department recognized that many Medal sof Honor were awarded arbitrarily and revoked somewhere close to 300 of them. Those that remained are legitimate.

There are plenty of examples of neck-worn valor medals, so the MoH isn't unique in that regard.  Even within the USAF, you have the AFC as a neck device.

Not so, The AFC is a chest Medal. The only Federal awards that are "Collar" decorations are the Medal of Honor, The Presidential Medal of Freedom, and the Commander grade of the Legion of Merit which can only be awarded to foreigners.

[Eclipse]

How about a belt buckle?

[AlphaSigOU]

Not so, The AFC is a chest Medal. The only Federal awards that are "Collar" decorations are the Medal of Honor, The Presidential Medal of Freedom, and the Commander grade of the Legion of Merit which can only be awarded to foreigners.

And don't forget the even rarer Congressional Space Medal of Honor; even this award is only a regular medal. It's the only U.S. medal that's jeweled; a diamond forms the center of the medal.

Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congressional_Space_Medal_of_Honor

[PlaneFlyr]

If you're anti-bling, then don't advocate for more bling which has no basis in the award's history.

It's not like a huge ridiculous "Pluto patch" on BDUs or a gawdy wing patch, it is something prestigious without any hokey story behind it.

Disagree.  No offense to the few SMV recipients here, but a lot of the stories behind some of the SMV's seem pretty average to me.  Actual examples include awarding of the SMV for directing traffic at a car accident scene, using a fire extinguisher on an aircraft's landing gear that was on fire, dozens of SMVs for moving a person out of a burning car and so on/  (Cars don't really "blow up" like the do on TV)  A great number of SMVs are awarded for people's actions outside of any CAP context whatsoever.  In fact SMVs are awarded to CAP members who are law enforcement and EMTs for doing what they get paid to do during their duties as an EMT or law enforcement officer.  For one example, the SMV was given to a CAP member who, while on duty as a deputy sheriff, and responding to a call went into a smoke filled apartment and carried the person out. 

I don't even see why CAP even recognizes actions outside of CAP.  I think they're noteworthy actions-- I'm not saying they aren't.  Kudos to the people who did those things.  But shouldn't the Sheriff's department, or ambulance company recognize the person for actions performed as a member of their organization?  Or the community in which the action took place?  Why would "Civil Air Patrol" recognize those actions with a Civil Air Patrol decoration just because the person also happened to have a current membership with CAP when they performed the action?   Shouldn't CAP be recognizing actions there were performed while the member was acting for CAP?

I'm not familiar with any other medals other than the incident where I earned mine involving aircraft landing gear, so I'm assuming you're calling me a phony... or at least accusing us of embellishing.  I do take offense to that. 

For mine, we were on a CAP mission at the time, and in proper uniforms, so this clearly wasn't outside of CAP.  When we first spotted the Learjet burning, it was initially limited to two blown tires on the left side catching fire on the hot brakes while taxiing.  If that would have been the extent of the situation, it wouldn't be very noteworthy.  By the time I got the extinguishers from our building, and the other guys got the flightline gate opened, the hydraulic lines had burned through and were spraying directly onto the glowing brakes.  The aircrew and passengers (including an off-duty CAP cadet in back) weren't even aware there was a problem until the flames erupted and engulfed the left wing.  The engines were still running as we were running up from behind, which kept the hydraulic system pressurized and spraying.  Fortunately, we were almost at the plane when the big fire erupted, so we were able to extinguish it within seconds.  The flames were about 10 feet high, foreward and aft of the wing, and the only exit for the occupants was directly through the flames.  There was still over 4500 lbs of fuel onboard when it was engulfed in flames, with only 0.10 inch of aluminum in between, and with flames coming within inches of the fuel vent on bottom of the fuselage.  After we put out the initial big fire, two passengers jumped out over the still closed lower door while one of us was getting it opened.  In total, the fire reignited 4 times during the incident, and we continued fighting it until it was out.  The fire department finally showed up 7 minutes later.  We saved 5 lives, including a CAP member, so I considered the day to be a relative success.  Even better is that the only injuries were minor, and I only lost an eyebrow and the hairs on my left arm from the flames.

Perhaps you can enlighten me on what you consider worthy?  Should we have allowed the Learjet to reignite and continue burning after the people were safe so that our pictures would appear more dramatic? (technically, we probably should have done that anyway since there was no longer life in danger)

I have read many CAP member's valor citations, and am aware that there is some range to what actions have earned the SMV and BMV.  Some may seem like a lot more danger was involved than others.  But the criteria are still the same; was the member's life/health endangered, were they aware of it, and would it have made the person look bad if they didn't take action (ie - a fireman on duty)?  It's not fair to try to compare a proposed recipient to a previous awards and say "Your brave action wasn't nearly as heroic as Maj. XXX's actions back in 1974, so you don't get one... please try to put yourself in more danger next time".  The recipients were put in a given situation, and took

Also if we were to limit earning of the SMV/BMV to only actions that occured while in uniform and signed into an official CAP activity, which for most people is only a couple hours a week, there would only be about 6 members who could wear either decoration.  Do you also feel the same way about the lifesaving award?  The intent is to honor the the recipient's actions, and should never be reduced to an "on the job" thing.  If so, then my NYFD friend, and many of his off-duty coworkers who died during 9/11, weren't brave since they weren't on the clock. 

I agree that there may be a few too many items of flair available for peoples' uniforms, but I don't think the way to address that problem is to eliminate, or render unobtainable, the highest decorations which have only been earned by 27/51 (SMV/BMV) current members out of 55,000.  That's just asinine.  (No offense).  I'd recommend you start a new discussion about eliminating the membership ribbon first, since that would declutter many more people's chests.

[JohnKachenmeister]

This whole thing is silly.

The Silver Medal of Valor is for heroism equivalent to that required to earn the Silver Star, if one were to compare it to combat awards, and the Airman's Medal to compare it to non-combat awards.  The Bronze Medal of Valor is for heroism equivalent to that which would earn the Bronze Star Medal with "V" device if it were in combat, or the Air Force Commendation Medal in non-combat situations.

Putting the SMV on a neck ribbon is just plain pretentious.

The Medal of Honor (and yes, I know that there have been a few exceptions) is for "Conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity" in action against an armed enemy, such valor being "Above and beyond the call of duty."

I cannot conceive of any non-combat heroism that would rise to that level. 

[Flying Pig]

I hate to break it to you.....but how are we getting this stuff about the SMV is equal to the Silver Star, the BMV is equal to the Bronze Star, etc.  No it isnt.  In no way shape or form.  The BMV is in no way equivalent to someone who would have earned a Air Force Commendation with a "V". 
We are worried about the military thinking we are posers, yet we are comparing our medals to their combat valor medals.   One of you SMV guys walk up to a Silver Star recipient and tell them they are equivilant medals and see what answer you get.

There is no equivalency chart for our medals to compare to military combat medals.  None of the medals we have compare to the military's medals or any other organizations medals for that matter.  They are ours.  They are CIVILIAN medals for heroism.  They are given by hundreds if not thousands of organizations, cities and counties and states.

Im curious, I am in CA.  So is our SMV equal to the Fresno County Sheriffs Medal of Honor?  The CHPs Medal of Valor?  Since we are a nationwide organization, maybe we should look into the criteria the FBI or DEA use to award their medals and compare those.  Is the SMoV equal to the Police Cross or the Attorney Generals Medal of Honor? How about the Red Cross?  Do they have medals?  Lets get a chart with every valor medal out there and show how ares are equal to theirs.
It is awarded so rarely nobody outside of CAP will ever notice, and after the ceremony is over, it wont be worn that way again.  I think after all these years there really isnt any reason to change it now, just leave it alone.  But if someone decided to hang one around the recipients neck, OK.

When I was awarded a Police medal, it went around my neck, and there were military members in the audience.  I wasnt embarrassed, or worried about someone thinking that I thought I was getting the Congressional Medal of Honor.   When the military members came and shook my hand, I dont recall any of them whispering in my ear "Remember poser, thats not the Congressional Medal of Honor."
I kept it on for the night, and now its in laying on a shelf on book case.

We are getting hung up on this issue about hanging it around peoples necks, when in reality, the military is about the only organization who DOESNT do it.

In police and fire services, where I am at least, every medal has a neck strap.  They are used for ceremonial purposes, and ARE NOT worn after.

[jeders]

After reading this whole thing, the only reason I can see for not having the SMV hang around the neck, for the presentation anyway, is that we haven't done it in the past. And if we used that reasoning for everything, we'd still be a bunch of cavemen clubing our wives and dragging them home by their hair.

Ceremonially, I think it's a decent idea and I see nothing wrong with it.

[PlaneFlyr]

The bad thing about the SMV is that people try to make it "equivalent" to something else.  People should just leave it as the stand alone award that it is.

To those of you reading this who are recipients of either the SMV or BMV, or for that matter any other military or organizational valor awards... it's an honor to serve with all of you.  (Insert salute here)

[Stonewall]

There is a new rule out there folks, only medals awarded for "conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity" in action against an armed enemy, such valor being "above and beyond the call of duty are allowed to be awarded, displayed or worn around the neck.  All others, including those for sports, can no longer be worn around the neck.

Just because an award is worn around the neck does not mean someone is trying to make it remotely equivelant to the MOH or any other medal in this world worn around the neck.

Medals worn around the neck have nothing to do with being equal to the MOH.  It is completely irrelevant. 

[Eclipse]

There is a new rule out there folks, only medals awarded for "conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity" in action against an armed enemy, such valor being "above and beyond the call of duty are allowed to be awarded, displayed or worn around the neck.  All others, including those for sports, can no longer be worn around the neck.

In the military, or the "real world"?  Because both the Olympics and my kids T-Ball team will both have something to say about that.

[jimmydeanno]

^That's his point...

[Flying Pig]

OK Im lost???

What is this about?  My kids soccer team cant give medals placed around their necks?  Tell me I missed the punch line.  Or was that the punch line?  You funny guy G.I.!

[lordmonar]

Okay....back to the regularly scheduled program.

1.  In order to make the SMV stand out during formal functions it is suggested that it be chainged from a ribbon (service dress) and mini-medal (mess dress) to a neck type decoration.

2.  This neck decoration would only be worn at FORMAL occassions.  Occasions that would require wearing the mess dress or during formal ceremonies...such as SMV prentations.  The neck decoration would not be worn during normal duty time.  For normal wear a ribbon would be worn on the left breast.

3.  It has been suggested the decoration be of a red ribbon with the SMV ribbon as a central point that the medal would be suspended from.

-------that is the proposal-----nothing else is being asked or suggested.

My personal opinion is:

A.  Not really needed....but I have no major hang ups if it were to be approved.

B.  If approved I don't like the red ribbon.  It should be the same ribbon that the SMV uses now.

Nothing else.

[Stonewall]

OK Im lost???

What is this about?  My kids soccer team cant give medals placed around their necks?  Tell me I missed the punch line.  Or was that the punch line?  You funny guy G.I.!

Yes, you got it brother.

Several folks are arguing that someone, anyone, maybe even me, are trying to make the SMV the same as the MOH.  Heck, as far as I'm concerned, people have created their own arguments against no one but themselves, because no one, except for the second poster (Gunner C) mentioned the MOH.

By adding a neck ribbon (or whatever it's called), regardless of color, some folks argue that we are copycatting the MOH, as if the only medal in the world allowed to be worn/presented around the neck is the MOH.

ONCE AGAIN, NO ONE IS MAKING AN ATTEMPT TO COMPARE THE SMV TO THE MOH, EXCEPT THOSE CREATING AN UNNECESSARY DEFENSIVE STANCE.

Perhaps this should have been made a poll with only two options.

1. Do you think the SMV should be presented around the neck and under very specific guidelines, be worn around the neck for special events.

or

2.  No, keep it the way it is.

Note:  This has nothing to do with the MOH.

[M.S.]

Yes medals around the neck just for mess dress sounds good.  Let's also institute colorful SMV sashes for service dress and full size SMV medals on short sleeve blues and intricate fourrageres for BDU's.  Each of those tradition ways of displaying an award has just as much connection to the CAP Silver Medal of Valor as does wearing it around the neck and each of those has just as much connection to the way CAP wears its awards as a collar medal.   They're all done commonly around the world in militaries or civilian organizations and governmental agencies --- this is not something new.

I vote we authorize special sashes, fourrageres and full-size medals for SMV recipients.  It's a prestigious and rare award and we should make a new, distinctive way to display it on CAP uniforms because it's not distinctive enough yet. 

The exact same argument you're making for neck medals applies just as much to sashes, fourrageres or a full size medal on short sleeve blues shirts.  So what do you think about that?  I think my suggestion makes it even MORE distinctive and important looking.

[Stonewall]

Don't be angry.  It's just a discussion; a debate even.  It isn't going to happen and no one that I know of is even proposing this.  So pull your panties out and take a breath.  You're worked up over something that doesn't even exist.  I hope you didn't read my utility uniform proposal, you would have broken your keyboard.

[jimmydeanno]

and full-size medals for SMV recipients.  It's a prestigious and rare award and we should make a new, distinctive way to display it on CAP uniforms because it's not distinctive enough yet. 

The SMV and BMV already have full-sized medals.  We don't have a way to wear them that way - it's for presentation purposes only.  Same argument for the neck drape idea - for presentation purposes only.  Stop reading into things that aren't there.

Creating a neck drape for the highest medals in CAP for presentation purposes doesn't smack of wannabeism or open the door to authorizing full sized medals on BDUs.

To me, I think it would be a great idea if the full sized medals ALL had neck drapes for presentation.  There's ribbons and mini-medals for actual wear.  Plus, it'd look good in a shadow box.

I say go for it.

[M.S.]

Don't be angry.  It's just a discussion; a debate even.  It isn't going to happen and no one that I know of is even proposing this.  So pull your panties out and take a breath.  You're worked up over something that doesn't even exist.  I hope you didn't read my utility uniform proposal, you would have broken your keyboard.

Whos angry?  I think neck orders are a great idea to make it distinctive, but we really shouldn't limit it to mess dress.  I think a red, silver, white and black fourragere on the BDUs would give the award earners a particularly distinctive look.  And a grand sash across the breast in service dress would make the award stand-out more.  Lots of nations and services and organizations and orders use breast sashes to denote awards.  This is not something new.

I mean, you know... just for presentation purposes.  The person would have to remove the neck ribbons and sash and fourragere after they presented it.  This is just for the award ceremony.

But full size medals on the blues shirts is done by AFJROTC so there's an even closer connection!  The USAF already allows it on their uniforms so it shouldn't be a big deal for CAPers to wear a full size SMV on their pockets in short sleeved blues.

[jimmydeanno]

The USAF already allows it on their uniforms so it shouldn't be a big deal for CAPers to wear a full size SMV on their pockets in short sleeved blues.

Have you ever read the AF uniform manual?  The AF doesn't have a regular combination that has full-sized medals.  Honorguardsman do - but they aren't "normal."

[M.S.]

The USAF already allows it on their uniforms so it shouldn't be a big deal for CAPers to wear a full size SMV on their pockets in short sleeved blues.

Have you ever read the AF uniform manual?  The AF doesn't have a regular combination that has full-sized medals.  Honorguardsman do - but they aren't "normal."

I meant "their" AFROTC uniform just like they still control the CAP uniform because the base of it is an Air Force uniform with distinctive CAP insignia.  See --- this cadet knows how to wear medals:



More like this please.

[Flying Pig]

and full-size medals for SMV recipients.  It's a prestigious and rare award and we should make a new, distinctive way to display it on CAP uniforms because it's not distinctive enough yet. 

The SMV and BMV already have full-sized medals.  We don't have a way to wear them that way - it's for presentation purposes only.  Same argument for the neck drape idea - for presentation purposes only.  Stop reading into things that aren't there.

Creating a neck drape for the highest medals in CAP for presentation purposes doesn't smack of wannabeism or open the door to authorizing full sized medals on BDUs.

To me, I think it would be a great idea if the full sized medals ALL had neck drapes for presentation.  There's ribbons and mini-medals for actual wear.  Plus, it'd look good in a shadow box.

I say go for it.

You know what.  I didnt even think about that part.  The SMV BMV and DSM are the only full size medals and the full size medals are only worn for ceremonial purposes, basically on the night it is presented and no other time.

But please......No full size medals on our short sleeve shirts!  But a sash is nice

[lordmonar]

Anyone going to call him a poser? 

Well seeing as how M.S. has taken this discussion up a notch or two....I vote LOCK!

[jimmydeanno]

I meant "their" AFROTC uniform just like they still control the CAP uniform because the base of it is an Air Force uniform with distinctive CAP insignia.  See --- this cadet knows how to wear medals:



More like this please.

That's JROTC, the High-School cadet program.  AFROTC (college level officer accession program) doesn't have a combo for full sized medals either.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I hate to break it to you.....but how are we getting this stuff about the SMV is equal to the Silver Star, the BMV is equal to the Bronze Star, etc.  No it isnt.  In no way shape or form.  The BMV is in no way equivalent to someone who would have earned a Air Force Commendation with a "V". 
We are worried about the military thinking we are posers, yet we are comparing our medals to their combat valor medals.   One of you SMV guys walk up to a Silver Star recipient and tell them they are equivilant medals and see what answer you get.

There is no equivalency chart for our medals to compare to military combat medals.  None of the medals we have compare to the military's medals or any other organizations medals for that matter.  They are ours.  They are CIVILIAN medals for heroism.  They are given by hundreds if not thousands of organizations, cities and counties and states.

Im curious, I am in CA.  So is our SMV equal to the Fresno County Sheriffs Medal of Honor?  The CHPs Medal of Valor?  Since we are a nationwide organization, maybe we should look into the criteria the FBI or DEA use to award their medals and compare those.  Is the SMoV equal to the Police Cross or the Attorney Generals Medal of Honor? How about the Red Cross?  Do they have medals?  Lets get a chart with every valor medal out there and show how ares are equal to theirs.
It is awarded so rarely nobody outside of CAP will ever notice, and after the ceremony is over, it wont be worn that way again.  I think after all these years there really isnt any reason to change it now, just leave it alone.  But if someone decided to hang one around the recipients neck, OK.

When I was awarded a Police medal, it went around my neck, and there were military members in the audience.  I wasnt embarrassed, or worried about someone thinking that I thought I was getting the Congressional Medal of Honor.   When the military members came and shook my hand, I dont recall any of them whispering in my ear "Remember poser, thats not the Congressional Medal of Honor."
I kept it on for the night, and now its in laying on a shelf on book case.

We are getting hung up on this issue about hanging it around peoples necks, when in reality, the military is about the only organization who DOESNT do it.

In police and fire services, where I am at least, every medal has a neck strap.  They are used for ceremonial purposes, and ARE NOT worn after.

I see you have misunderstood my post.  I will explain.

There has to be some criteria for deciding whether to award an SMV or a BMV for a specific act of heroism.  So, since everyone can relate to the Silver vs. Bronze Star, there is informal guidance as to the nature of heroism applied to assist in the decision making.

The same criteria apply to award of the Airman's Medal (or Soldiers' Medal, or Navy-Marine Corps Medal) vs. the appropriate service Commendation Medal.

You won't find it in writing anywhere.  But IF you put someone in for an Airmans' Medal, someone will ask you:  "Is the herosim exhibited in this act that which would justify a Silver Star if it were in combat?"  If you cannot answer "Yes," you will be told to downgrade the recommendation.

And yes, this is a "Been there, done that" moment.  I have been, at various times in my life, the person making making the recommendation, on a staff committee considering recommendations for a general officer, and the person recommended for an award.

The same careful consideration applies to us... If the heroism is not such that would justify a Silver Star if it were demonstrated in combat, a lesser award than the SMV for heroism is appropriate.

Yes, I know other medals come on a neck ribbon, including the Presidential Medal of Freedom.  Police and Fire service medals do, too.  CAP is not the police and fire service.  CAP is not the Special Olympics, either, and they get neck medals, too.

I still think that it would be pretentious to wear the SMV on a neck ribbon.

But hey... do what you want. 

How about a "Miss Congeniality" sash, too?

[Timbo]

Not needed. 

[Hawk200]

As for the "it's not about the Medal of Honor" argument, it is. The initial post states "Each of the military services has their highest award as a neck drape award" Unless there is another one that I'm not aware, that is the Medal of Honor.

It's a decoration with a great deal required to be elible for it: combat heroism, above and beyond the call of duty, and quite often it's awarded posthumously. We don't have such any such equivalent requirement or circumstances for any decoration in CAP.

All other decorations are below the MOH, there is no other award like it in the US military. If someone with an MOH was to join CAP, they could wear it. To make our SMV a neck decoration is just going to be copying the military for an award that doesn't have near the distinction of the MOH for the sole purpose of having a neck decoration.

[James Shaw]

Yes medals around the neck just for mess dress sounds good.  Let's also institute colorful SMV sashes for service dress and full size SMV medals on short sleeve blues and intricate fourrageres for BDU's.  Each of those tradition ways of displaying an award has just as much connection to the CAP Silver Medal of Valor as does wearing it around the neck and each of those has just as much connection to the way CAP wears its awards as a collar medal.   They're all done commonly around the world in militaries or civilian organizations and governmental agencies --- this is not something new.

I vote we authorize special sashes, fourrageres and full-size medals for SMV recipients.  It's a prestigious and rare award and we should make a new, distinctive way to display it on CAP uniforms because it's not distinctive enough yet. 

The exact same argument you're making for neck medals applies just as much to sashes, fourrageres or a full size medal on short sleeve blues shirts.  So what do you think about that?  I think my suggestion makes it even MORE distinctive and important looking.

No need for sarcasm if you dont like the idea just say so and move on.

[major pain]

the topic was not the comparison of the CAP medals of valor and ANY MILITARY Medals. the topic was Should the CAP allow the Medal of Valor Awardees to wear the Medal with certain uniforms as a neck drape.

not if the medal awardees are posers, or that the idea is to make the award like the Medal of Honor.

Its not a comparison the SMV and BMV are their own awards, the stand alone with their own criteria of consideration.

They shouldn't be looked at as what the military has in comparison. WE ARE NOT THE MILITARY!

I say if the members would like the awardees of the highest award that can be given in CAP to have the honor of a distinction on certain situations then yes.

TO ONLY BE CONSIDERED AS A COMPARISON TO THE MILITARY AWARDS NO!

[Timbo]

Instead of spending money on a neck drape, perhaps a section on the national website with a picture of the person who received the SMV and the citation.  That would be more neat than drapes.

Honestly, if a person who receives the SMV needs to showcase it every time they put their blues on, something is wrong.  Wear the ribbon, or wear the medal on the mess.  I believe that to be enough. 

Now saying all of that, not having a SMV myself I could care less either way.  If those that have it get together (and they will) and press for the neck drape, so be it.  It will just be one more item that Vanguard will charge $40.00 for!!

[major pain]

The medals of valor are controlled by national, and only available for purchase by awardees after confermation by national membership services workers.

(and they are cheaper then similar items at vanguard thanks to the low production numbers)

[Timbo]

(and they are cheaper then similar items at vanguard thanks to the low production numbers)

Shouldn't that be the other way around??  Limited runnings are often more expensive than items that are produced more frequently.  UNLESS NHQ had 1,000 of the SMV produced then had the mold destroyed, it should cost more to produce maybe 3 SMV's a year as opposed to 150 Mitchell's.  Taking into account overhead, inventory material cost etc. 

[D2SK]

After reading this silly thread I've decided that most of you have way too much free time on your hands.     It's amazing how many internet "experts" there are out there.

[Hawk200]

After reading this silly thread I've decided that most of you have way too much free time on your hands.     It's amazing how many internet "experts" there are out there.

So you have nothing useful, but thought slamming the posters here was a valid use of your own free time?

We have many discussions on this board that each person feels very strongly about. Diminishing peoples' feelings on the matters isn't going to make you any friends. Or is that what you were trying to accomplish?

[Pylon]

Instead of spending money on a neck drape, perhaps a section on the national website with a picture of the person who received the SMV and the citation.  That would be more neat than drapes.

+1! 

The medals of valor are controlled by national, and only available for purchase by awardees after confermation by national membership services workers.

Or you can just buy them from The Hock on the website, SKU# 6548.  No confirmation needed.  YMMV. 

[RiverAux]

I'm not at all a fan of all the doodads we can put on CAP uniforms, but this seems like a fairly sensible proposal to me.  Wouldn't be the top thing on my to-do list, but I think it worthwhile to consider.

[AlphaSigOU]

The medals of valor are controlled by national, and only available for purchase by awardees after confermation by national membership services workers.

(and they are cheaper then similar items at vanguard thanks to the low production numbers)

True, because the official stock of medals and ribbons of the SMV/BMV was probably purchased long ago.

[Hawk200]

As far as making a neck decoration out of the SMV, what purpose does it serve? What problem does this provide a solution to?

If it's to make the SMV or even the BMV more distinctive, we could do that by eliminating a lot of our gratuitous pseudo medals. Make only decorations as medals, not every award that CAP has. It would be cheaper for the membership overall as well. Most of those mini medals run almost seven bucks apiece. Medals would be more distinctive, and the membership in general doesn't pay a bunch for "decorations" with far less meaning.

It has been mentioned that we are not the military. So why do we need to convert CAP's highest decoration into a neck decoration like the military?

[AlphaSigOU]

It has been mentioned that we are not the military. So why do we need to convert CAP's highest decoration into a neck decoration like the military?

Exactly... what is it with this obsession with 'neck rash?'  (What the WWII German military derisively called those who were obsessed with earning the Ritterkreuz der Eisernes Kreuz (Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross) and its exalted degrees above the basic neck decoration.)

Even the Medal of Honor, up until WWII was only worn as a humble suspension medal like everyone else.

[ColonelJack]

As far as making a neck decoration out of the SMV, what purpose does it serve? What problem does this provide a solution to?

While I might agree with you in theory here, it stands to reason that every new idea doesn't necessarily have to solve a problem.  Sometimes they're just good ideas.

If it's to make the SMV or even the BMV more distinctive, we could do that by eliminating a lot of our gratuitous pseudo medals. Make only decorations as medals, not every award that CAP has. It would be cheaper for the membership overall as well. Most of those mini medals run almost seven bucks apiece. Medals would be more distinctive, and the membership in general doesn't pay a bunch for "decorations" with far less meaning.

I like that idea.  All the decorations, of course, should have corresponding medals -- and why, I wonder, don't we have full-size medals for the ESA, MSA, CC, NatCC, and LS, anyway?  I know we'd never have the opportunity to wear them apart from the day they're presented, but that's what shadowboxes are for.  The top three cadet awards should have medals, and I'd say the Garber and Wilson awards should also have medals.

It has been mentioned that we are not the military. So why do we need to convert CAP's highest decoration into a neck decoration like the military?

The neck decoration is used by many other organizations outside of the military.  I'm just sayin' ...

Jack

[ltcmark]

I would be honored to wear the SMV as a neck medal.  I do not think that there is anything wrong with showcasing CAP's highest award.

Here is a picture of one of my Lieutenant's wearing a German military award, notice this is a neck award.  He is the one on the right.  Before anyone says anything, yes it is authorized, it can be worn on the USAF uniform and this was awareded to him while in the Air Force.  The Colonel in the center is Leo Thorsness who received his MOH during Vietnam.   Col Thorsness thought the German award was really nice.



There are many organizations that have a Medal of Valor.  Here is a good website:  http://www.medalofvalor.com/

[Timbo]

^ So what award is that?  My eyes are not as good as they used to be........is it:
    * Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany
    * Bundeswehr Crosses & Medal of Honor

CAPNHQ told one of my Seniors in '99 that he could not wear foreign decorations.  Maybe that changed. 

[IceNine]

Not true.

39-3 section A,4.

WHICH was written in '98.  Doesn't matter what NHQ said they were wrong.

[ltcmark]

^ So what award is that?  My eyes are not as good as they used to be........is it:
    * Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany
    * Bundeswehr Crosses & Medal of Honor

I believe it is the Order of Merit.

[James Shaw]

Some of the replies in this thread make it seem as though anyone who has been awarded the SMV or BMV are trying to equate their award with that of the MOH or any other high level award for the military. I have talked to dozens of recipients and have never been given that impression from anyone. Not one of the recipients has ever tried to say that their acts were equal to or just as important as anothers. I feel that each individual who has been awarded either of the Medals of Valor should be treated independently  and not compared to others. The biggest part of this is I was not there and do not know what happened that caused them to be nominated so why should I worry about it. I know there have been cases in the recent past that have stained other recipients. We as members cant help this, we have to accept it and move on.

The recent recinding of the SMV of prior members has hurt those who have earned it previously and those who may deserve it in the future. Other members began to question others awards based on a small sampling of the activities we have been involved in. It almost seems like we should be ashamed to be associated with the SMV or BMV and that it would be boasting or putting it into someones face to wear it in any form. I disagree with this because I have still not met anyone who has tried to shove this in my face. I have never had a recipient introduce themselves as "I'm Major Ego and I have the Silver Medal of Valor" what do you have?

I am a recipient of the SMV and am very proud of this and I will not be shamed into cowarding in the corner and begging for forgiveness for this honor. I am very proud to be associted with Civil Air Patrol and all of my fellow members and those who have been awarded the Medals of Valor. I am also very honored to be associated with other members who have two or three awards and nothing else but a desire to fly search and rescue missions. I dont care about how many ribbons or awards a member may have as long as their intent and work is honorable.

I personally like this neck drape and would not be opposed to its use or wear in an appropriate setting. I would not wake up in the morning and take it off of the nigth stand and wear it while I was getting ready for work....as well I wouldnt take the award and put in in the attic. It is what it is and that is a different way of displaying a pride and honor from an organization that most still are proud to be associated with. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I respect that but it is not necessary to demean others in the process.

My opinion has always been: If you earn it ,than wear it with pride and honor, and honor the organization in everything you do.

My .02$ worth.

[Timbo]

^ Agree.  However, there is no precedent for the item.  CAP never had them (asking here)?? 

[James Shaw]

^ Agree.  However, there is no precedent for the item.  CAP never had them (asking here)?? 

I agree there has been no precedent for the design but that does not mean that things can't change or simply additional options offered.

It is interesting to note that all of the CAP award certificates have a ribbon banner across the page and part of the CAP seal in the middle. The SMV and BMV are the only ones that have a neck drape style design on them.

[Timbo]

^hmm....I change my vote.  For this award, I would say let them wear it.  Lets see what USAF says. 

[RiverAux]

That certificate makes me wonder if they originally intended for it to be a awarded on a neck ribbon. 

[lordmonar]

No...it is just standard military way of doing it.

All of my USAF decorations have the same format and non of my medals were intended to be worn as a neck decoration.

[RiverAux]

Then why are the two valor medals done that way by CAP?  That is what I was getting at. 

[Hawk200]

It is interesting to note that all of the CAP award certificates have a ribbon banner across the page and part of the CAP seal in the middle. The SMV and BMV are the only ones that have a neck drape style design on them.

I don't think that we have any need to convert an existing medal that has been that way for years to a neck decoration.

On another note, even if I was outvoted (provided there was a vote) and a neck decoration was adopted, I would have far less heartburn with a design based on the certficate. To be blunt, the one depicted in the original post looks cobbled together, and it also looks like complete crap. If it was done, then it should be done right.

[Hawk200]

Then why are the two valor medals done that way by CAP?  That is what I was getting at. 

Because it mirrors the military. Same thing with the AF decs I have, and the same as the Army Achievement I received. The medal certificates design probably date  back to a period when CAP had far more similarities to the AF, with far fewer differences.

[RiverAux]

Well, we're both really just speculating --- thats fine.

[Timbo]

Then why are the two valor medals done that way by CAP?  That is what I was getting at. 

Because it mirrors the military. Same thing with the AF decs I have, and the same as the Army Achievement I received. The medal certificates design probably date  back to a period when CAP had far more similarities to the AF, with far fewer differences.

Correcto!  Don't forget for a very long time the AF ran CAP.  It is only during the past 30 years or so that CAP has actually run CAP.

Interesting....."Auxiliary United States Air Force" and today's "Air Force Auxiliary".....which we really can't even use unless we are on an AFAM.

How things change.

[Hawk200]

Don't forget for a very long time the AF ran CAP. 

Good point. When you think about it, the original certificate design may have been actually produced by the Air Force.

[ltcmark]

I agree with caphistorian 100% about the comparison to military medals.   I have never and will never compare my SMV to a military award.  No, I was not getting shot at by some enemy, although the actions that lead up to my SMV were none the less dangerous.  It is a CAP award - period.  As such, my medal and award certificate does have a prominent place on my wall.  I do not sleep with it, nor do I pick it up and pet it and say nice medal.  It is recognition that my peers judge what I did as heroic.

I did not wake up that morning saying "I think I will get the Silver Medal of Valor today".  The SMV is not something that you can plan for or earn by checking off boxes.  It was not until a week later, when we were retelling the drama at the squadron meeting, that someone said that was SMV material. 

A lot of people in CAP wonder if they will ever get a chance to use their emergency services training.   You never know.  You prepare for the worst and hope for the best.  The other question to ask is yourself is; what if you are presented the opportunity?  Will you run or fight?  I know what I will do; I will put my life at risk to save another. 

When you see a SMV or BMV on someone, you know that that person will cover your back, no questions asked.  In fact, when the fire started, the only thing on my mind was the people still in the burning kitchen.  30+ years of emergency services training kicked in and came down to 5 minutes of no hesitation, running into a burning kitchen, asking myself what the hell did I just get myself into, to let's find the people and get out the back door.

THAT IS WHAT CIVIL AIR PATROL IS ABOUT.

[PlaneFlyr]

I've had people imply to me in the past the SMV, BMV, and even Lifesaving Award are not fair since not everyone will have the opportunity presented to them to earn one.  I have trouble grasping the logic. 

As a couple others here said, nobody wakes up planning to get a medal that day.  In fact, I've never hear of any recipient that chose to go into the dangerous situation just because it would qualify them for a medal.  What the actions leading to these decorations represent is the spirit of being willing to help others in danger, regardless of the risk.  That's a characteristic we ought to encourage in our members (except maybe the "regardless of the risk" part).

There are plenty of good people in CAP with plenty of courage who would likely perform admirably under similar circumstances, but never get the opportunity.  That in no way should diminish the contribution of those people.  Their role in CAP is as important as mine. 

I've know people who have performed actions that clearly should have resulted in high recongnition, who were not submitted for it.  I consider that a lost opportunity to recognize our members.

I even had one SMV recipient, who 6 months later helped save another person at a traffic accident, ask me not to put him in for a well deserved lifesaving award, because he didn't want people to think he was a glory-hound.  This members actions are amazing.  I wish that he could have been properly recognized, but understand his reluctance.

And I've also spoken to another member who was put in a situation where he wanted to help out, and froze up and just watched.  He told me that he was ashamed by his inaction, especially in light of knowing several SMV recipients.  I told him that there was nothing wrong with how he acted.  Sometimes, it's best to use some discretion. 

We have all types of members in CAP.  All are valuable.  And all should be recognized when they do something that benefits CAP or makes the organization look good.

[Timbo]

As a couple others here said, nobody wakes up planning to get a medal that day. 

What?!?!

I stand outside the nitroglycerin plant everyday waiting.............

[ColonelJack]

I've had people imply to me in the past the SMV, BMV, and even Lifesaving Award are not fair since not everyone will have the opportunity presented to them to earn one.  I have trouble grasping the logic.

That is probably because there is no real logic there to grasp.  That's the same mind-set that leads to everyone on a team getting a trophy or medal, whether it was earned or not, so "no one feels left out."  The trophies or medals are thus rendered essentially valueless.

Fair?  Somebody better tell those folks that life is not fair, nor was it ever guaranteed to be so.  Life is unfair, get used to it.  That's what I would say.

Sheesh.

Jack 

[jimmydeanno]

The SMV, BMV and Lifesaving awards are three decorations that I hope I never have the opportunity to earn.  For those of you who have earned them, thank you for your sacrifice and willingness to help others in a time of great need.

[FlexCoder]

My suggestions would be!

Corporate Uniform only (not the AF style jacket)
CAP Mess Dress (either neck drape or mini medal but not both.)
Blazer Combo

Our suggestions would be for you to start doing something constructive for CAP rather than focusing on medals & boosting your ego.  90% of your posts are focused on your medals or rank.   What happened to CAP history?  It's a Great Honor that your a hero of CAP but it's not at best that you want more than the Valor such as life membership, neck piece, etc.  Be humble and leave it at that!

[BillB]

FlexCoder, If you'll notice CAPHistorian did not start the thread. He was just voicing his opinion of the existing thread on wether the SMV and BMV should be worn as neck drapes.

[PlaneFlyr]

My suggestions would be!

Corporate Uniform only (not the AF style jacket)
CAP Mess Dress (either neck drape or mini medal but not both.)
Blazer Combo

Our suggestions would be for you to start doing something constructive for CAP rather than focusing on medals & boosting your ego.  90% of your posts are focused on your medals or rank.   What happened to CAP history?  It's a Great Honor that your a hero of CAP but it's not at best that you want more than the Valor such as life membership, neck piece, etc.  Be humble and leave it at that!

FlexCoder, I'm not sure how much you've contributed to CAP, but I'm willing to bet it's a lot less than what CAPHistorian does on a regular basis.  That's just inconsiderate to flame someone who's giving germain responses to other people's posts.  He has as much right to reply the posts on here as you do.

And lest you think CAPHistorian "is focusing on medals & boosting [his] ego"... go down a few of my posts in this thread to where I mentioned some unnamed SMV recipient "who asked me not to put him in for a well deserved Lifesaving award, lest people think he was a glory hound".  CAPHistorian was the person I was talking about.  He's (most likely) saved more people's lives in the past 3 years than you ever have.  And he's done it on at least 2 occasions that I'm aware of, aside from the one he earned the SMV for.  And he CHOSE not to be recognized for the other actions, even though he absolutely would have been justified.  So I would politely ask that you back down before you make yourself look any more inconsiderate.  Why don't you simply thank the man for his service, and stop making personal attacks.

And to the rest of you reading this... thank you all for your service.  I consider all of our members to be heros simply for volunteering to do the hard work CAP asks of them... just because it's the right thing to do.

[James Shaw]

My suggestions would be!

Corporate Uniform only (not the AF style jacket)
CAP Mess Dress (either neck drape or mini medal but not both.)
Blazer Combo

Our suggestions would be for you to start doing something constructive for CAP rather than focusing on medals & boosting your ego.  90% of your posts are focused on your medals or rank.   What happened to CAP history?  It's a Great Honor that your a hero of CAP but it's not at best that you want more than the Valor such as life membership, neck piece, etc.  Be humble and leave it at that!

I don't mind you voiceing your opinion but I do not appreciate personal attacks. If you are that interested in my work you can check the SER webpage and go from there.

[tarheel gumby]

My suggestions would be!

Corporate Uniform only (not the AF style jacket)
CAP Mess Dress (either neck drape or mini medal but not both.)
Blazer Combo

Our suggestions would be for you to start doing something constructive for CAP rather than focusing on medals & boosting your ego.  90% of your posts are focused on your medals or rank.   What happened to CAP history?  It's a Great Honor that your a hero of CAP but it's not at best that you want more than the Valor such as life membership, neck piece, etc.  Be humble and leave it at that!

Flex I really think that you missed the point made by CAPHistorian, and do not think that anybody has tried to inflate their egos or the importance of the MOV.

[Rotorhead]

I've had people imply to me in the past the SMV, BMV, and even Lifesaving Award are not fair since not everyone will have the opportunity presented to them to earn one.  I have trouble grasping the logic. 

As a couple others here said, nobody wakes up planning to get a medal that day.  In fact, I've never hear of any recipient that chose to go into the dangerous situation just because it would qualify them for a medal. 

That is the point. Not everyone will get the opportunity.

(What's next, the "I had the opportunity to perform in a manner worthy of decoration but I failed" medal?)

This is, sadly, what happens when you give every kid on the soccer team a trophy just for showing up. 

[lordmonar]

Even on active duty we have had a similar discussion about medals.

I was in a combat communications unit stationed out of germany.  On the average I would spend 3 months on station then deploy from anywhere from 2 weeks to 120 days.

Each deployment came with an opprotunity to get decorated depending on the mission and what actually happened.

So in my 4 years with the Combat Comm...I got 1 joint service acheivement medal for Bosnia, 1 AF aceivement Medal for Kosovo and 1 Commendation Medal for my end of tour, plus a lot of campaign and service medals. 

Compared to my overseas comm brothers they could normally only look forward to their end of tour medal at 2 or 3 years depending on their tour lengths.  Compared to my stateside brothers who would only be considered when they PCS'es (4-5 years on average).

So was this "fair" because no one really has any control of what type of assignement they are going to get (you volunteer for Germany not for specific units in Germany)?  Yes and No.

It is fair in that if you do the deed you get the medal...it is not fair in that I got the opportunity to do the deed.

That is what they call life.  Get over it.  When I was on acitive duty I did not ever want to "win" a combat medal......but I don't give those who got the opportunity and answered the call a hard time about it.

[RogueLeader]

^ Bravo Zulu
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