CAP Uniform Regulation Working Group Change Suggestions

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I am simply stating how many would feel were the USAF uniform to by the way side, let down and less proud (even some who don't wear the USAF uniform). I for one felt let down when the Army started to get rid of the Dress Greens, I felt a loss of tradition and a lot let down because I felt the Army didn't care for history or tradition, and that it was trying to just look like everyone else with the Blue Service Dress uniform.

The Blues Service Dress uniform is for Cavalry. Many of us felt we were stealing their tradition and their heritage and we were loosing ours. The Army went to the Dress Green Service uniform because green is "the color of the Army" (red is a little closer according to many Infantry types).

I was an Infantryman I must say a rather well decorated one for modern times. I have to say I was proud to wear the Greens. Every chance I got I wore them, not to show myself off but to show my pride and discipline. I Am proud to be a soldier, once a soldier always a soldier.

Just as such the CAP deserves it's connection to the Air Force. They have always been a part of the Air Force. CAP will loose recognition when it looses the uniform, that is how they are recognized from a distance and when people don't know the individual. They see the uniform and they see a military type individual. When they see the aviator shirt and slacks they see a pilot and think nothing of that person being able to help them in an emergency. The USAF uniform conveys a sense of safety, confidence, knowledge, and professionalism.

Just as it is happening with the Army and their new dress uniform, I got it all the time, "I thought Air Force wore silver name plates, not black." I was constantly being confused with Air Force, if not the Air Force I was getting asked what countries military I am with. No one recognized the uniform even with an eagle on my head.

I just feel if CAP were to loose the USAF uniform then we would also loose our credibility and the publics ability to know who we are. Especially the cadets.

[JC004]

They are not taking it away.  They are taking away the corporate blue uniform.  Why are you fighting something that isn't so?

The army's green is pretty recent.  They wore blue all of the way back to the 1700's...

[manfredvonrichthofen]

The Cavalry wore the blue uniform no one else. The change from the Greens to the Blues just goes to show how much the military like to change and take uniforms away, which is why CAP needs to be prepared to be told no more USAF uniforms so that we can be ready to stand and prove our case as to why we should get to keep wearing it.

[JC004]

There wasn't much of a Cavalry when the Continental Line wore blue.  It was blue in the War of 1812, blue in the Civil War, blue in between...blue for a long time after...

Marines of the Revolution wore green...

1821 - Congressional confirmation of Army wear of National Blue; practical gray wool pantaloons for the winter mud, a tradition of contrasting shades.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

The uniform primary color was blue but the Cavalry has always worn the dress Blue Uniform. The Dress Blue uniform has a dark blue, almost black jacket, and light, almost baby blue slacks with a gold trim. that has allways been the cavalry uniform. I have been to many Cavalry balls, and seen their traditions and customs. That is their uniform. The Army is stealing from them. Yes, the Marines of the time wore a green uniform but it was not the Dress Greens. The uniform, I agree needs to be modernized, but not abandoned. Change the jacket layout to similar to the way the USAF did, but not abandon the color. The USAF knew that they should keep the uniform primarily the same when they modernized it, but they did not change it's color or wear style, only taking out the four corner pockets. A more welcome change than abandoning it all together.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Lets just say this, no member of CAP should want to see the USAF style uniform be dropped.

[Pumbaa]

I do!

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Might I ask why?

[NCRblues]

Agreed robert, but this is just idol talk on captalk. The Air Force style is not leaving, not for a long time. With the air force moving over to ABU's the general idea is to keep us in BDU's, since now that the AF is no longer wearing them (or pretty soon, their may be some left out their that haven't moved over to them yet) the BDU's add's another layer of CAP distinction.

[JC004]

The uniform primary color was blue but the Cavalry has always worn the dress Blue Uniform. The Dress Blue uniform has a dark blue, almost black jacket, and light, almost baby blue slacks with a gold trim. that has allways been the cavalry uniform. I have been to many Cavalry balls, and seen their traditions and customs. That is their uniform. The Army is stealing from them. Yes, the Marines of the time wore a green uniform but it was not the Dress Greens. The uniform, I agree needs to be modernized, but not abandoned. Change the jacket layout to similar to the way the USAF did, but not abandon the color. The USAF knew that they should keep the uniform primarily the same when they modernized it, but they did not change it's color or wear style, only taking out the four corner pockets. A more welcome change than abandoning it all together.

Is this a practical joke? 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I agree that the BDU should be kept, Digi cam is both pointless, and unprofessional looking. Not to mention if it did work to conceal us in the woods, which it doesn't, that would not help us at all. I do totally agree with not changing the field uniform. I really don't think we should change any uniforms. they all serve a purpose and are at the best that they can be. I am not particularly fond of the Aviator shirt style corporate uniform, but it serves a purpose, and looks the best it ever will. There are no amount of changes that will do it any better, and getting rid of it is just another slap in the faces of those who don't meet standards to wear the USAF style uniform for whatever reason. It is not, in most cases, the fault of the individual who cannot meet standards of weight, there are many reasons a person is unable to meet weight standards and it is their right to be in a uniform, if a Col. Marx is contributing to his squadron as their commander but is put on steroids because of lupus he should not be cast out of the unit by being singled out and not allowed to wear a uniform because his steroids that are saving his life are making him gain weight no matter what he does. the same goes for the many who havethyroid problems or anything hereditary that they can't control. They have the right to wear a uniform that looks good and shows their achievements. Respect is what it comes down to, not discriminating against anyone in CAP, come on that is a core value. Respect all who give of their time and not giving them an option is just wrong.

JC004: Is what a practical joke?

[JohnKachenmeister]

The Cavalry wore the blue uniform no one else. The change from the Greens to the Blues just goes to show how much the military like to change and take uniforms away, which is why CAP needs to be prepared to be told no more USAF uniforms so that we can be ready to stand and prove our case as to why we should get to keep wearing it.

I wore the Army Dress Blue as a military police officer. I never thought I stole it from the Cav.  The entire Army wore blue, with branch colors on the epaulet designating infantry, cavalry, artillery, and others.  The tradition goes back at least to the Civil War.   

[manfredvonrichthofen]

When were you an MP?

[JohnKachenmeister]

OK, folks what changes would you recommend to the uniform working group?

Here's my suggestions

1.  Transition both cadets & senior members out of BDU's/green flight suits to the Blue BDU's and Blue flight type suits  -- Reason consistent appearance at field operations, better diferentiation when working with police organization that have swat team that wear BDU's.

2.  Aviator Shirt Uniform  -- Change the pants from grey to black and specify the specific color code that has to be met  -- Reason difficult now for members to get proper matching grey pants, numerous pictures released show signficiant difference in pants colors.

3.  CAP TShirt with Emblem (Blue color) -- Develop a CAP TShirt with current emblem and allow wear with blue BDU pants  --   Reason during summer heat would be more comfortable for wear than current BBDU shirts.

4.  Allow cadet members to wear current Golf Shirts combinations (with black color pants replacement) --- Reason, consistency when visiting quasi military locations such as air museums.

5. CAP Command Patch & Pluto The Dog Patch on Orange or Lime Green Outer Vests.   Allow these patches to be place on the front chest areas of the vest (right & left)  --- Reason, better differentiates ground teams as being associated with Civil Air Patrol.

6.  Tigthen up the weight & appearance standards for wearing the AF type uniforms  --  Reason, members should meet the military standards, and also commander's need to pay specific attention to hair & mustaches.

That's all I can think of for now.  :angel:     

RM   

1.  No.  Blue BDU's and Flight Suits are too expensive.  Sage green flight suits are readily available at low cost, and so are woodland BDU's. 

2.  No.  Black pants with a white aviator shirt will look like a cross between an airline pilot and a naval officer.  Standardize a shade of gray uniform pants, with gray cargo pants for use with the golf shirt.

3.  No.  Standardize color, OK.  Units should be free to use local unit insignia for morale reasons.  Taking shirts off in the field is a BAD idea.  Increasing skin exposure to the sun increases heat retention, and leaves the member open to bug bites, scratches from foliage, etc.

4.  No.  Cadets are here for training, and part of that training is consistent proper uniform wear.  Plus, why make cadet membership more costly?

5.  No, but a weak "No."  OK to standardize vests, but lets not garbage them up with a lot of insignia.  Go with one or the other.

6.  Adopt AF standards on height/weight?  OK, but...  Understand that this will involve a body fat determination (I meet the AF body fat standard, but I am overweight on the CAP's weight-only standard); and develop body fat standards for members past 50.  I'm not sure how much longer I can hold out on my BF status.

[JohnKachenmeister]

When were you an MP?

Enlisted as an MP (Ohio NG) 1976.  Commissioned MP officer, 1978.  Retired, 1993.  Came back into NG, 2002 (after 9/11 and some serious weight reduction).  Retired again, 2005.

My Army blues (purchased after OCS, 1978) do not fit anymore.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Yes, in the 60's and 70's there were servicemen that wore the Blues, but not the whole Army, the Army changed the uniform during that time about 8-9 times at least. just from that time period my father has, (that he wore during his service) Blues Greens and Tans. and that is the problem that I have, change just for the sake of change is never a good thing, especially when it comes to what an organization is recognized as wearing. Also, yes anyone and everyone in the Army is ALLOWED to wear the blues, but until now it was never required, and at least as long as I was in, it was highly discouraged, and in the infantry world, you were not allowed to wear them unless wearing the full size medals, and at a formal unit ball.

[High Speed Low Drag]

OK, folks what changes would you recommend to the uniform working group?

Here's my suggestions

1.  Transition both cadets & senior members out of BDU's/green flight suits to the Blue BDU's and Blue flight type suits  -- Reason consistent appearance at field operations, better diferentiation when working with police organization that have swat team that wear BDU's.

2.  Aviator Shirt Uniform  -- Change the pants from grey to black and specify the specific color code that has to be met  -- Reason difficult now for members to get proper matching grey pants, numerous pictures released show signficiant difference in pants colors.

3.  CAP TShirt with Emblem (Blue color) -- Develop a CAP TShirt with current emblem and allow wear with blue BDU pants  --   Reason during summer heat would be more comfortable for wear than current BBDU shirts.

4.  Allow cadet members to wear current Golf Shirts combinations (with black color pants replacement) --- Reason, consistency when visiting quasi military locations such as air museums.

5. CAP Command Patch & Pluto The Dog Patch on Orange or Lime Green Outer Vests.   Allow these patches to be place on the front chest areas of the vest (right & left)  --- Reason, better differentiates ground teams as being associated with Civil Air Patrol.

6.  Tigthen up the weight & appearance standards for wearing the AF type uniforms  --  Reason, members should meet the military standards, and also commander's need to pay specific attention to hair & mustaches.

That's all I can think of for now.  :angel:     

RM   

1. No – Leave as is or transition seniors only to BBDUs.  We have got to keep one of the major enticements for cadets.

2.  No – but to Charcoal gray.  Turn this uniform into a complete dress uniform combo system.

3. No – let each SQ do their own.  Our SQ has one, they love it and promotes local pride.


4. No – they have enough current uniforms for the job at hand.

5.  GET RID OF PLUTO

6.  No – just actually enforce it.

A – Develop CAP dress uniform system.  Incorporate a flight cap on the White / grays

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Why can't any one leave well enough alone? The uniforms we wear are great! I have to correct something, earlier i stated that I have never been mistaken for military. I do know of one Sr. member who was mistaken for a civil police officer... whatever that is. He was wearing the dark blue BDU's. otherwise never a problem around us.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Hmm...all this about the Army green-to-blue...

I wasn't in the Army, but my dad was (4th Armored Division, Erlangen, West Germany).

He was in during the transition from the Ike jacket to the greens.  He liked the Ike jacket and hated the greens so badly he refused to wear them until he was ordered to.  He never owned the blues; I think he said that only commissioned and warrant officers had to have them back then.  I still have his old Ike jacket.  I can see why he liked it.

I wish I could have been in the AF/CAP when we had the Ike jacket.  They looked cool.

I have never been mistaken for LE, but I once was mistaken for a department store security guard...when I was wearing the light blue shirt and AF trousers order.

I will wear the modified CSU per General Courter's specs until the very last day it is allowed.  Why nobody has tried to urge CAP (to my knowledge) to keep that as a permanent uniform is beyond me.  It does not look like an AF uniform, especially not with the modifications.

I guess it goes back to being so snakebitten over anything to do with the Generalissimo and anything to do with the colour blue that anyone who has anything to do with CAP uniforms is running scared in the aftermath of the TPU/CSU.

Personally, I think black or dark blue trousers would make the aviator shirt order look a lot better.  It may look like an airline pilot or Navy type to an untrained eye, but so what?!  No uniform is completely original.  It would be better for CAP to look like airline pilots, since many of us are anyway (I'm not).  At least looking like an airline pilot would say "aviation."  The grey/white does not.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I do!

Why, and replaced with what?