2B for felony charge

[NCRblues]

I need to make sure that i read those post right. Do some of you maintain that even though a person was found innocent from the charges, you still might kick them out? I just want to make sure that was your point.

[Eclipse]

I need to make sure that i read those post right. Do some of you maintain that even though a person was found innocent from the charges, you still might kick them out? I just want to make sure that was your point.

Yes.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I need to make sure that i read those post right. Do some of you maintain that even though a person was found innocent from the charges, you still might kick them out? I just want to make sure that was your point.

Cadet gets busted for [insert illegal substance]. Gets arrested, pays a fine. What do yo do?

[RogueLeader]

Agreeing to pay the fine usually means that you consent tohaving a guilty plea being entered into the record. . .

[NCRblues]

oh boy here we go again. So by this standard, any cap member receiving a traffic ticket (because in most states a traffic ticket is in lieu of an arrest, with a promise to show to court, or plead guilty and pay a fine) should be kicked out, even if it was PROVEN innocent in a court of law. So the court system (backed by the Judaical system and the government) says your innocent, you as a squadron commander will say oh no i think you did it, or you made us look bad, goodbye. How are you going to support your reasoning when this person takes it to marb? This is such a joke, this is cap personnel overstepping their bounds again. Forgetting that cap does not run my life. Outside of cap you have no power over me. I feel so bad for the men and women who serve under you. Go ahead and talk down to me eclipse i know its coming, but your wrong on this. This is not the way to treat people at all.

[RiverAux]

Obviously you're over-reacting to what is being said.  All anyone has said is that they would want to know exactly what it was all about and under certain circumstances even if not proven guilty (you're not proven innocent, by the way), they might still kick them out.

Heres an example.  Guy gets arrested for murder and during the course of the trail admits to being a drug dealer.  But, he gets off on the murder charge and for some procedural issue the cops can't charge him for drug dealing.  Do you ignore that fact and let him stay in CAP? 

[Eclipse]

NCR, if you're literally not going to even read the thread, there's not much room for conversation, is there?

[NCRblues]

I read the post several times. You clearly stated that even if their found not guilty of the crime you don't care. "whether the member is ultimately convicted in the courts is irrelevant" was one of your posts, "At a minimum the cadet will need to explain the situation to the satisfaction of the commander (or higher), whether she's ultimately convicted, pleas out, has the records suppressed as a minor is irrelevant if she did something  that pops 2-2F" was another. Do not preach to me about not reading. Once again i ask you how are you going to defend your actions of a 2b if the person was proven innocent on the charges in court? Are you going to say, well a jury of their peers did not think they did anything wrong, but by god i do so goodbye? This makes no sense to me. Answer my questions, do not speak to me like i am two sir.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I read the post several times. You clearly stated that even if their found not guilty of the crime you don't care. "whether the member is ultimately convicted in the courts is irrelevant" was one of your posts, "At a minimum the cadet will need to explain the situation to the satisfaction of the commander (or higher), whether she's ultimately convicted, pleas out, has the records suppressed as a minor is irrelevant if she did something  that pops 2-2F" was another. Do not preach to me about not reading. Once again i ask you how are you going to defend your actions of a 2b if the person was proven innocent on the charges in court? Are you going to say, well a jury of their peers did not think they did anything wrong, but by god i do so goodbye? This makes no sense to me. Answer my questions, do not speak to me like i am two sir.

Ah...none of the quotes you make mention 2b at all. If someone was arrested for ANYTHING I would want to know.

[arajca]

1. In a court, a person is either guilty or not guilty. There is no innocent.

2. It is very possible, and unfortunately not too uncommon, for someone to be found not guilty because of a technical mistake. That does not negate the fact they did the act. If one side or the other misses a deadline by as little as five minutes, the case can - and has at times - been thrown out.

3. As for defending actions of filling a 2B for conduct unbecoming, that's why the member and the commander need to have a discussion about the incident that lead to the charges  (WHICH HAS BEEN MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES). At the very least, the member can be suspended pending the outcome of the trial. That is acceptable.

4. If I, as a commander, feel the members actions warrant a 2B, I will file it, following the required procedures - which includes the member's right to appeal. The results of the court case may not necessarily affect that decision.

5. Juries do not always find a person not guilty because the accused did not do the crime. They have been known to find a person not guilty due to extenuating circumstances. Does that mean the accused did not commit the crime?

6. There are some other options available to commanders besides the 2B. Again, what action is taken needs to be determined by the commander AFTER a discussion with the member, unless the member does not want to discuss it. Then the commander can make the decision based on available information.

7. A cadet can be 2B'd for not progressing (2 achievements per year is the minimum REQUIRED rate). 

8. Yes, the results of the court case can be irrelevent for a member to be kicked out.

9. Commanders, and other members as well, can talk with CAP legal officers about potential 2B actions. It is highly recommended that commanders contemplating 2B'ing someone do consult with the wing legal officer, as well as their next higher commander, who will evaluate the appeal, if one is filed.

[Майор Хаткевич]

^^^ Thank you for reading my mind and turning it into readable format.

[flyerthom]

At the risk of playing semantics the operative word is may.

Examples:
Case one - person is arrested for excessive speed and blowing a red light because he's driving his wife to L&D because she's in labor
Case two - person is arrested for excessive speed and blowing a red light because he's street racing.

essentially the same charges but intent is very different.

example:

Person is hunting without a license and shoots a doe in buck season and tries to hide it. Convicted fined etc.

Person is hunting with a license and shoot a doe in buck season. Self reports is convicted and fined.

Similar charges but different response.

This is why members can be suspended while the process plays out.  The street racer and poacher would most likely be gone. The father and the mistake shooter most likley won't (although they won't be drving CAP vans or taking the cadets to NRA courses).

There is an IG process. Follow it.

In the original post has the IG been notified? It is their job to get the facts and move from there.

[Eclipse]

In the original post has the IG been notified? It is their job to get the facts and move from there.

As described, this is not an IG issue unless there is an allegation of improper procedure regarding
the termination itself.

IG's are not the secret police of CAP, they are simply fact-finders who function at the behest of a respective commander, and only when requested to do so by that commander or a higher HQ.

Handled properly, a termination is a routine act of a commander, in this case the unit CC process the termination, and if an appeal is made, it would be to the Group (or Wing if they don't have Groups).  Generally the appeals live or die at that level.

The MARB generally focus' their attention on Corporate-officers and Wing-level terminations.

[FW]

^Correct on point one however, the MARB focuses on all termination  proceedings which are apealed to it.  For the apeal to be heard, there must be an "allegation of retaliation, lack of due process or failure to follow the regulations".   The MARB does not care if it is a member at the squadron or a corporate officer.

[lordmonar]

I need to make sure that i read those post right. Do some of you maintain that even though a person was found innocent from the charges, you still might kick them out? I just want to make sure that was your point.

Yep.

O-Jay was found innocent......anyone think he did not do it?

[IceNine]

I read the post several times. You clearly stated that even if their found not guilty of the crime you don't care. "whether the member is ultimately convicted in the courts is irrelevant" was one of your posts, "At a minimum the cadet will need to explain the situation to the satisfaction of the commander (or higher), whether she's ultimately convicted, pleas out, has the records suppressed as a minor is irrelevant if she did something  that pops 2-2F" was another. Do not preach to me about not reading. Once again i ask you how are you going to defend your actions of a 2b if the person was proven innocent on the charges in court? Are you going to say, well a jury of their peers did not think they did anything wrong, but by god i do so goodbye? This makes no sense to me. Answer my questions, do not speak to me like i am two sir.

You are in fact very creatively ignoring what we are say. 

We do not have "power" over what you do outside of CAP.  We do however have an obligation to protect this organization and all associated members and equipment.

We are talking about ASKING QUESTIONS not throwing people out.  IF the answers to those questions warrant termination then that is by all means an appropriate response.  If it warrants a demotion, or removal from a staff position, or another appropriate response then by all means do that.

IF the answers to those questions warrant no action, then the commander will direct his staff that there is nothing to see here and they need to move along.

Termination of membership does not live in a vacuum of things that you did while in uniform.  It is a process that encompasses your entire existence as a member.

And again these questions are in no way designed as a witch hunt we are not burning someone at the stake because we haven't done that in a while.  We are working to protect the organization.  Which is a fundamental responsibility when assuming command.

[NIN]

The MARB generally focus' their attention on Corporate-officers and Wing-level terminations.

Partially accurate. Rank & file members probably make up the *bulk* of the MARB's proceedings, and not all are terminations.

(EDIT: Would have helped had I read FW's post.. Heheheh)

[Eclipse]

The MARB generally focus' their attention on Corporate-officers and Wing-level terminations.

Partially accurate. Rank & file members probably make up the *bulk* of the MARB's proceedings, and not all are terminations.

What else are they considering?  Below Wing CC there's no protection for staff or command slots.
(I guess I mentally lump being removed as a Wing CC and membership termination as the same thing.)

[lordmonar]

What else are they considering?  Below Wing CC there's no protection for staff or command slots.
(I guess I mentally lump being removed as a Wing CC and membership termination as the same thing.)

From the last MARB report only 2 of the 12 cases heard were for wing commanders.  All the rest were group and below including several that were just members in staff (not command) positions.

[Eclipse]

What else are they considering?  Below Wing CC there's no protection for staff or command slots.
(I guess I mentally lump being removed as a Wing CC and membership termination as the same thing.)

From the last MARB report only 2 of the 12 cases heard were for wing commanders.  All the rest were group and below including several that were just members in staff (not command) positions.

Were these membership terminations or removal from the staff jobs?