2B for felony charge

[CAPC/officer125]

I have researched regs and forms and need an opinion or better reg cite.
I just found out that I have a cadet that is in jail for felony assault. She is 17 and her membership lapses at the end of the month. Would it be wise to try to get a 2B through, in the case that she isn't convicted?
I have looked through the regs and I don't see anything specific to felonies (charge or conviction) on termination or suspension of membership for a cadet or senior.
What is your opinion?

[RiverAux]

Pass the information up your chain of command.  They're the ones that will be making the decision. 

[Eclipse]

As a cadet its not your call - pass the information you have to your Commander (no need to share it publicly, even though you just did), and let him handle it.

[ZigZag911]

Why 2B someone once they're acquitted?

In other words, are we terminating members for being arrested now?

Suppose it's mistaken identity, which happens all the time?

In the American justice system you  are innocent until proven guilty!

[Eclipse]

A member does not have to be convicted of anything to violate 2-2 F  "Be of good moral character".

At a minimum the cadet will need to explain the situation to the satisfaction of the commander (or higher), whether she's ultimately convicted, pleas out, has the records suppressed as a minor is irrelevant if she did something  that pops 2-2F.

You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube...

[ZigZag911]

What if she were falsely or erroneously accused?

Then there isn't any toothpaste to put back.

[Eclipse]

What if she were falsely or erroneously accused?

Then there isn't any toothpaste to put back.

Its perfectly acceptable to actually read the threads you're responding to.

At a minimum the cadet will need to explain the situation to the satisfaction of the commander (or higher),

The entire situation is "out of the tube" and she will need to explain herself.

[IceNine]

Eclipse is 100% correct.

This isn't anyone's call except the senior chain of command directly over the member.  I'm sorry but this isn't even a discussion that a cadet should be having with anyone, except the unit commander directly.

Tell your Squadron Commander and don't talk about it any more.  Just talking about this could lead to an unpleasant situation for you all around.

[Airrace]

Pass the information up your chain of command.  They're the ones that will be making the decision.

I would agree with this post!

[Spike]

umm..... innocent until proved guilty.  What part of that does everyone here not understand??

I don't care if you sat in jail for a week, if you are NOT CONVICTED, you have no felony record.

Just being arrested means jack squat. 

Using the logic of Eclipse and other here, We should be terminating memberships of anyone involved with the judicial system.  So, divorces and summons to appear should also carry with it the "explanation". 

Face it, people do not have to explain anything. 

Lets not pretend we have more power in CAP than we really do.  If you read that the person was convicted of a felony in your paper.....perhaps then you can ask questions. 

I hope someone here actually tries to terminate the membership of an innocent person.....you could find yourself in court with a civil lawsuit.  Then I guess we would need to terminate your membership.   

[Eclipse]

Spike, you can't just ignore 2-2F because it helps your argument.

"Innocent before proven guilty" has no bearing in this discussion - that's a criminal legal pillar of the US.
CAP has no ability to incarcerate members, and it is an "at will" organization, charged with the protection of minors, property and financial assets, and in some cases the general public, so from a membership and internal standing standpoint, your being legally "innocent" in a criminal case doesn't make much difference.

I'm sure you're not naive enough to believe that all of those adjudicated as "innocent" are actually free from any culpability or involvement in the respective crime?

"Innocent" and "guilty" are objective terms which have very specific meanings within and outside of the court system.

The judgment of "Good moral character" is a subjective responsibility we charge our commanders with.
Once a CC at any level finds out that a member, cadet or senior, has been arrested for anything, especially a violent crime, it's their responsibility to ask direct questions, and make decisions based on those answers.

If the charges are serious enough to ultimately result in an automatic termination of membership, then a suspension of membership pending outcome is warranted and reasonable, and even if closed from a criminal perspective, the member's behavior in the situation may still warrant termination.

[capchiro]

Cadets can't 2B anyone the way I read CAPR 35-3.  I had a cadet come back from a Leadership Weekend and he informed me that he was taught how to write up a 2B.  I told him that was an entire waste of time.  He didn't last much longer in the program after that..

[Eclipse]

Cadets can't 2B anyone the way I read CAPR 35-3.  I had a cadet come back from a Leadership Weekend and he informed me that he was taught how to write up a 2B.  I told him that was an entire waste of time.  He didn't last much longer in the program after that..

That's true, and a cadet recommending an otherwise oblivious CC or CDC on the termination of another cadet smacks of larger problems across the board.

[Spike]

Eclipse.....a huge part of our society is based on the presumption of innocence.  Many people (possibly you) forget that being charged with a crime is not a crime in itself. 

How would you even write up a termination for "charged with ____________"??

The actions of a person always have to be proved whether through documentation or witness. 

Today most if not all people are blind to the fact that a person can be dragged trough our justice system just so we can keep people employed in said justice system. 

Please also don't forget that just "reading a sentence" in the police blotter is not grounds enough for any CAP negative action. 

A persons name is all they have, and when we go around terminating members for something that they may not even have done, we add to how jacked up our culture is.  Plus, I am privy to 3 lawsuits against CAP in which members have sued for defamation each of which was a result of overzealous members trying to play "lawyer or cop".

Don't forget I can call your Commnader, and tell them I know you are a felon and make up a story.  Should they immediately terminate or suspend your membership??

   

[Spike]

I just found out that I have a cadet that is in jail for felony assault. She is 17 and her membership lapses at the end of the month. Would it be wise to try to get a 2B through, in the case that she isn't convicted?

How did you find out?

[Eclipse]

Spike - again you're ignoring the actual conversation above just to try and make your point.

This situation involves the CC finding out to his best ability exactly what happened, not a knee-jerk termination based on hearsay.

But once the situation is known, if the behavior warrants termination, whether the member is ultimately convicted in the courts is irrelevant.

The 2b would indicate the actual behavior, not the allegation, though certainly the arrest could be mentioned.

[lordmonar]

umm..... innocent until proved guilty.  What part of that does everyone here not understand??

I don't care if you sat in jail for a week, if you are NOT CONVICTED, you have no felony record.

Just being arrested means jack squat. 

Using the logic of Eclipse and other here, We should be terminating memberships of anyone involved with the judicial system.  So, divorces and summons to appear should also carry with it the "explanation". 

Face it, people do not have to explain anything. 

Lets not pretend we have more power in CAP than we really do.  If you read that the person was convicted of a felony in your paper.....perhaps then you can ask questions. 

I hope someone here actually tries to terminate the membership of an innocent person.....you could find yourself in court with a civil lawsuit.  Then I guess we would need to terminate your membership.   

First......on principle yes we should go slow and be sure of ourselves before we proceed on any 2b action.

Second....just beacue you are not convicted does not mean you did not do it...or that you are otherwise not suitable for CAP.

Third....people most certainly do have to explain things.  If I were the commander and I "heard" that one of my members got arrest you can be sure that I will be asking questions.  If that person refuses then I 2b him for insubordination.

One of the cool things about CAP is that we are not a law enforcement agency......no one has a right to be a member of our organisation.  If our regulations allowed we can kick you out because your name started with an "H" and it was the third Tuesday on a month that started with a J.

It is right for members and commanders to look into any criminal activity of their members....even susspected activity.  As I said before they need to go slow and make sure of their facts.  But we have a duty to insure that anyone who is not suitable for our organisation is removed as soon as possivle.

So....in this case......report it to your commander who should ask for guidance from the wing legal officer.

[capchiro]

Spike, also, anyone facing a 2B has quite an appeal process to help them protect their rights.  It's not automatic.  On the other hand, if a member is accused of inappropriate conduct with a cadet, they will be automatically suspended, and an investigation will determine if the charges are legit or not.  In the mean time the member is suspended..  So, not is all cases are you presumed innocent until proven guilty.. Actually in this case it is to provide protection to the cadet and other cadets until determination if there is a true danger or not..   

[ZigZag911]

Spike - again you're ignoring the actual conversation above just to try and make your point.

This situation involves the CC finding out to his best ability exactly what happened, not a knee-jerk termination based on hearsay.

But once the situation is known, if the behavior warrants termination, whether the member is ultimately convicted in the courts is irrelevant.

The 2b would indicate the actual behavior, not the allegation, though certainly the arrest could be mentioned.

If I understand what you're saying, you see a possibility for a 'conduct unbecoming' termination in some circumstances following an arrest but absent a conviction.

Presuming this is based on something substantial (but perhaps not admissible in court), there are times when administrative action such as this is justified.

Earlier posts (which i did read) sounded to me as if some of the posters were hanging the cadet out to dry simply for being arrested.

[IceNine]

Except that everyone keeps ignoring the fact that both Eclipse and I said "Go talk to your commander".  Which is sound advice all around, none of us have any right or privilege to provide advice on this matter beyond that.

Anything after the above is simply an expression on how that person would handle such an issue.  But the only advice that the OP should take away is again talk to the appropriate commander.

Then he said on multiple occasions that there are possible grounds for termination, but you can't tell without the aforementioned commander ASKING THE QUESTIONS.

At the end of the day, conviction, accusal, rumor, perception, arrest, or whatever other terms you can imagine are simply the instigators of appropriate questioning.

I don't care if a member is accused of taking dime store candy or murder if I hear about it I'm asking the questions so that I can hear both sides and make the judgement I've been charged with as a commander of this organization.  If I don't ask the question I can't accurately respond.  That response can be anything from defending the member to termination.