Security Forces Familiarization Course!

[coolkites]

FOUO

Nevada Wing is hosting an exciting new activity in December!  Check out the Cadet Blog for details.

At the Air Force Security Forces Familiarization Course, cadets will encounter Air Force Office of ******** (***), the ********************** Police Department and the  *****************(***).

Experiences include law enforcement/security training, military working dog program, small arms weapons familiarization, anti terrorism/force protection and emergency services response.

Cost is $*.** and the application deadline is ***.


I received this in an email and was just curious. Does anyone have any more information about this? Has anyone ever attended this type of training before? I *ed out certain information because it was not necessary to be included. Sorry if im being overly cautious about OPSEC and correct me if I was wrong in *ing out that information

[flyerthom]

Being NV Wing PAO I'd LOVE some information on this. 

Why do I feel like a mushroom...


Quick use of Googlefu shows it's out there already so no opsec issue.:

from gocivilairpatrol

http://www.usafsffc.com/Home_Page.html

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/USAF_SFFC_Info_Flyer_C9A7BC8BF2778.ppt

[Flying Pig]

Wow...a course where I can stand at the front gate in August sweating my butt off with a nasty sunburn on my ears.  Sign me up!!!

(I used to do it...so I can complain )

[coolkites]

Interesting responses, Like I said I just received this in an email from ORWG wing notices and was very curious I could not go though because of the cost. 

[Grumpy]

Wow...a course where I can stand at the front gate in August sweating my butt off with a nasty sunburn on my ears.  Sign me up!!!

(I used to do it...so I can complain )

HOT HOT HOT!!
(7 level in LE and Security)

[Short Field]

The event takes place the end of Dec which is great cool weather in the Las Vegas Valley.

[Flying Pig]

Oh, so frost bite instead.   

Im kidding of course.  I had a blast in Security Forces (USMC Security Forces).  Some of the best training, working with top notch guys (USMC Security Forces is males only).  I was able to see and protect some of the most amazing things on the planet.  I realize Marine SF is different than USAF SF......but you get the idea.

Marine Security Force Co.
Naval Weapons Station, Yorktown VA

[lordmonar]

Being NV Wing PAO I'd LOVE some information on this. 

Why do I feel like a mushroom...


Quick use of Googlefu shows it's out there already so no opsec issue.:

from gocivilairpatrol

http://www.usafsffc.com/Home_Page.html

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/file.cfm/media/blogs/documents/USAF_SFFC_Info_Flyer_C9A7BC8BF2778.ppt

Tom, 

They wanted to keep this a close hold because it was pretty iffy if it was going to happen.

[Spike]

Somewhat pricey, and to be honest, I don't think I like it.  I don't hate it, I just don't like it. 

I can not feel where my dislike comes from, so I will let others here beat back and forth, and try to figure out what corner I want to play in.

[Flying Pig]

I dont have an issue with the course. I think SF is a very popular career field.  Many cadets have an interest in Law Enforcement.  However, I did note the price.  $400.  Holy COW!!!  Why so much?  Our encampment out here in CA is only $150.

[lordmonar]

I dont have an issue with the course. I think SF is a very popular career field.  Many cadets have an interest in Law Enforcement.  However, I did note the price.  $400.  Holy COW!!!  Why so much?  Our encampment out here in CA is only $150.

Economy of scale....with 200 cadets you can keep the price cheaper...with 20 it is a lot harder.

[Spike]

I think I can do this at my Squadron.  I have had FBI/ CIA and Homeland Security guest speakers.  I also have a ready pool of SF members to pull from.  I will have each group talk and answer questions, we will go to the indoor range and fire some rounds off.....then I will take the cadets rappelling. 

[Spike]

Economy of scale....with 200 cadets you can keep the price cheaper...with 20 it is a lot harder.

Hey now....those are the kind of terms we are trying to forget since college.  If we continue to use them, people may actually make smart economic decisions. 

[Flying Pig]

I dont have an issue with the course. I think SF is a very popular career field.  Many cadets have an interest in Law Enforcement.  However, I did note the price.  $400.  Holy COW!!!  Why so much?  Our encampment out here in CA is only $150.

Economy of scale....with 200 cadets you can keep the price cheaper...with 20 it is a lot harder.

Ahh...yeah.  You had to interject math into this knowing it was my weakness.  That was uncalled for.

[lordmonar]

They have been kicking this sort of idea around for a while.

HQ has been looking for some NCSA's that they can run during the "off season".  They almost had this one last December but it fell through at the last moment.

Even now it is only a test program.  If it goes well it may become a standard NCSA.

[lordmonar]

I dont have an issue with the course. I think SF is a very popular career field.  Many cadets have an interest in Law Enforcement.  However, I did note the price.  $400.  Holy COW!!!  Why so much?  Our encampment out here in CA is only $150.

Economy of scale....with 200 cadets you can keep the price cheaper...with 20 it is a lot harder.

It's okay...I was not wearing my shoes at the time. 

Ahh...yeah.  You had to interject math into this knowing it was my weakness.  That was uncalled for.

[Polecat]

I saw this 2 days ago and insantly thought "I know what I am asking for for Christmas!".  I really want to do this plus the guy running it is a good man. Only problem is getting transportation around the holidays. Hhhmmmm. It's a 6 hour drive...  Is this actually an NCSA or just a wing program?

[DC]

I saw this 2 days ago and insantly thought "I know what I am asking for for Christmas!".  I really want to do this plus the guy running it is a good man. Only problem is getting transportation around the holidays. Hhhmmmm. It's a 6 hour drive...  Is this actually an NCSA or just a wing program?

No, its just a NVWG activity right now.

[lordmonar]

I saw this 2 days ago and insantly thought "I know what I am asking for for Christmas!".  I really want to do this plus the guy running it is a good man. Only problem is getting transportation around the holidays. Hhhmmmm. It's a 6 hour drive...  Is this actually an NCSA or just a wing program?

No, its just a NVWG activity right now.

Actually it is a national program....but they still have not decided if it will have NSCA credit.
One of the reasons why they are asking for cadets with NSCA credit to begin with.

I will talk with the Project Officer and see if this has changed.

[coolkites]

I saw this 2 days ago and insantly thought "I know what I am asking for for Christmas!".  I really want to do this plus the guy running it is a good man. Only problem is getting transportation around the holidays. Hhhmmmm. It's a 6 hour drive...  Is this actually an NCSA or just a wing program?

Sorry but what is NCSA?

I would love to go but coming up with $400 is out of the question right now and I doubt I could get that kind of a scholorship

[SarDragon]

NCSA = National Cadet Special Activity

Consult CAPR 50-16 for more info.

[coolkites]

Thanks Sar

[DC]

Sorry but what is NCSA?

http://ncsas.com/

[Airrace]

Is this training open to cadets from outside Nevada?

[DC]

Is this training open to cadets from outside Nevada?

I'm pretty sure, otherwise I don't think they would be advertising it on the national website.

[Ned]

This is a wonderful activity.

But just to avoid any confusion, it is not a National Cadet Special Activity. 

At least not yet.


Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor

[coolkites]

This is a wonderful activity.

But just to avoid any confusion, it is not a National Cadet Special Activity. 

At least not yet.


Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor

So does that mean that since I have not attended an encampment I could still go? (mine got cancelled because of lack of cadets (ORWG)

[JC004]

http://ncsas.com/

MORE domains?  I think that I am going to be ill. 

[lordmonar]

This is a wonderful activity.

But just to avoid any confusion, it is not a National Cadet Special Activity. 

At least not yet.


Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor

So does that mean that since I have not attended an encampment I could still go? (mine got cancelled because of lack of cadets (ORWG)

No.

In talking to Maj Ford this DOES NOT count as and encampment nor does it count as a NSCA.  They want to treat it like a NCSA so you have to have been to an encampment to go.

[flyerthom]

They have been kicking this sort of idea around for a while.

HQ has been looking for some NCSA's that they can run during the "off season".  They almost had this one last December but it fell through at the last moment.

Even now it is only a test program.  If it goes well it may become a standard NCSA.

Is Arny going to cover this for Capnews?

[RADIOMAN015]

I dont have an issue with the course. I think SF is a very popular career field.  Many cadets have an interest in Law Enforcement.  However, I did note the price.  $400.  Holy COW!!!  Why so much?  Our encampment out here in CA is only $150.

That cost looks high to me.  I'd like to see the breakdown of the costs.  Also do they really need a week of this?  Looks to me like this could be compressed into a 2 to 3 day type activity to further cut the costs.

Also with these type of familiarization courses, IMHO could easily be conducted on a regional basis to reduce travel costs/time.  Perhaps CAP National Headquarters in conjunction with the CAP-USAF Hq staff could come up with a good schedule for these type of activities.

Some examples I would like to see:
Emergency & Rehabilitative Medicine
Field Radio Communications
Aircraft & Structure Firefighting Response & Fire Prevention
Military Aircraft Maintenance
Air Traffic Control, Airfield Management, & Weather 
RM 

[Ned]

That cost looks high to me.  I'd like to see the breakdown of the costs.

Compared to most youth camps the cost is very reasonable.

And rather than anonymously sharpshooting the activity director and volunteers here on the internet based on speculation, perhaps you'd like to get in contact with them.

Especially since they aren't here on the board to defend themselves.

Also do they really need a week of this?  Looks to me like this could be compressed into a 2 to 3 day type activity to further cut the costs.

Undoubtedly.  They could also just put the whole course onto a couple of PowerPoint slides that the cadets could review from home.  Think of the cost savings!

Also with these type of familiarization courses, IMHO could easily be conducted on a regional basis to reduce travel costs/time.  Perhaps CAP National Headquarters in conjunction with the CAP-USAF Hq staff could come up with a good schedule for these type of activities.

Some examples I would like to see:
Emergency & Rehabilitative Medicine
Field Radio Communications
Aircraft & Structure Firefighting Response & Fire Prevention
Military Aircraft Maintenance
Air Traffic Control, Airfield Management, & Weather 
RM

Remember, "Cop Camp"   is not a NHQ activity.

But these are certainly good ideas that would make wonderful national or regional activities.

However, we are not short of good ideas at NHQ.  We are short of dedicated seniors who can take good ideas and develop and successfully implement good activities.

Volunteer through your chain of command.  Curt and I are desparate for good activity directors.


BTW, what we are not short of are folks who make great suggestions and then complain about the current slate of activities offered by wings, regions, and NHQ.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Advisor.

[wuzafuzz]

$400!?!  Holy H-e-double hocky pucks!  I remember attending a weeklong Law Enforcement Explorer conference at Vandenburg AFB for $50 or so.  Granted it was 1983, but still. 

Neat idea, but the cost...

Fore those interested in Security Forces, it might be interesting to connect with LE Explorers or Venturing (what ever it's called now).  If we can be cross-chartered as Venturing posts, drink from their pool of opportunity.

[PHall]

$400!?!  Holy H-e-double hocky pucks!  I remember attending a weeklong Law Enforcement Explorer conference at Vandenburg AFB for $50 or so.  Granted it was 1983, but still. 

Neat idea, but the cost...

Fore those interested in Security Forces, it might be interesting to connect with LE Explorers or Venturing (what ever it's called now).  If we can be cross-chartered as Venturing posts, drink from their pool of opportunity.

You would be surprised to see what a week in billeting costs these days. It's not like Nellis has an open bay barracks they could stick them into.

[lordmonar]

$400!?!  Holy H-e-double hocky pucks!  I remember attending a weeklong Law Enforcement Explorer conference at Vandenburg AFB for $50 or so.  Granted it was 1983, but still. 

Neat idea, but the cost...

Fore those interested in Security Forces, it might be interesting to connect with LE Explorers or Venturing (what ever it's called now).  If we can be cross-chartered as Venturing posts, drink from their pool of opportunity.

You would be surprised to see what a week in billeting costs these days. It's not like Nellis has an open bay barracks they could stick them into.

$34.75 and they do not give us a discount because of CAP.
So that makes  $241.50 of the fee just lodging.

[BrandonKea]

http://ncsas.com/

MORE domains?  I think that I am going to be ill.

I know, it kills me too...

[RADIOMAN015]

Ned responded:

Also do they really need a week of this?  Looks to me like this could be compressed into a 2 to 3 day type activity to further cut the costs.

Undoubtedly.  They could also just put the whole course onto a couple of PowerPoint slides that the cadets could review from home.  Think of the cost savings!

Well compressing courses & maximizing the time available (cadets up at 0600 hrs, bed 2200 hrs) may yield a short time period for a particular activity & could reduce costs.

However, we are not short of good ideas at NHQ.  We are short of dedicated seniors who can take good ideas and develop and successfully implement good activities.

BTW, what we are not short of are folks who make great suggestions and then complain about the current slate of activities offered by wings, regions, and NHQ.

Volunteer through your chain of command.  Curt and I are desparate for good activity directors.

Perhaps as a separate thread you might want to discuss what kind of time commitments it takes to plan & implement these type of activities.   Many of us (senior members) have limited vacation time, other family responsibilities, other hobby interests, as well as increasing workplace requirements, and just can't get away for a complete 5 day weekdays, but might be able to make something work Thursday/Friday/Saturday, leave 12 noon Sunday type activity.   

I also get the perception that the mind set in CAP from the top isn't what you do right (on these types of activities) but what you do (or went) wrong, especially regarding cadet safety.  IF something happens (and none of us want anything to happen), than all hell breaks loose against the senior members involved in that cadet activity.  So until this perception goes away,  IMHO it's doubtful that there will a large pool of volunteers willing to undertake these type of cadet activities.   
RM

[heliodoc]

I am with RADIOMAN on this one..

You get what you pay for on this forum.

Short of folks?  Complaining of current activities offered?  Define the time commitments. Define ahead of time what needs to be done through the various Wings. Maybe check on those retired folks who could put in more time.  You got me RTFN FOR 30 DAYS. NHQ PAYS  for me to get there. Pay my per diem, according to the GTR's. I am laid off looking for work in the meantime and trying to get MP done this next two weeks.  DEFINE what you need done.  Go through the chain of command?  Define the need DOWN through the chain, get a cattle call.  Check thru the Wing administrators who is retired, laid off.  Why is when NHQ calls, "go through your chain of command."  Do that enough in my current Wing on occasions for flight training done and NOT even the respect of a return phone call.

Us "volunteers" in the field do not have the luxury of taking 5 days off in a row to play "CAP Officer"

AND yes .......every time something that does go wrong in the field, there's the "punishment" of online course that crop up every time some thing breaks.  How about sponsoring a REAL SAFETY Course put on by OSHA or the Army or AF and NHQ pays, huh???

Want volunteers??  You really do have our emails  don't you?  TRY it and find out.  Sweeten that CAP pot of dough and teach us what you want done and PROPERLY!!!

Likewise National Staff College should be rotated OUT OF Maxwell and have a traveling show like FEMA and the others that put on training.  It is time for CAP NHQ to GET out in the field amongst those they "administrate."

Spread all those

[Ned]

I also get the perception that the mind set in CAP from the top isn't what you do right (on these types of activities) but what you do (or went) wrong, especially regarding cadet safety.  IF something happens (and none of us want anything to happen), than all hell breaks loose against the senior members involved in that cadet activity.  So until this perception goes away,  IMHO it's doubtful that there will a large pool of volunteers willing to undertake these type of cadet activities.   RM

Well, in CAP we are all acountable for our actions - good or bad.

I have personally approved dozens of CAP decorations for seniors involved in NCSAs in the summer of 2009.

And we are always looking at actions to improve training and safety for all of our participants to minimize avoidable problems.

I certainly understand and truly appreciate the very real sacrifices of our dedicated CP seniors who take a week or more of vacation to support things like NCSAs and encampments.

But I'd go a little further and suggest that threads like this with people publicly and anonymously criticizing volunteer leaders by claiming that an activity is "too long" or "too expensive" and who have not even bothered to look at the training schedule or cost breakdowns also tend to discourage folks from getting involved.

Don't you agree?

(. . .)Short of folks?  (. . .) Define ahead of time what needs to be done through the various Wings. (. . .) NHQ PAYS  for me to get there. Pay my per diem, according to the GTR's.  (. . .)  Go through the chain of command?  Define the need DOWN through the chain, get a cattle call. 
(. . .)

Us "volunteers" in the field do not have the luxury of taking 5 days off in a row to play "CAP Officer"

Want volunteers??  You really do have our emails  don't you?  TRY it and find out.  Sweeten that CAP pot of dough and teach us what you want done and PROPERLY!!!

Likewise National Staff College should be rotated OUT OF Maxwell and have a traveling show like FEMA and the others that put on training.  It is time for CAP NHQ to GET out in the field amongst those they "administrate."

Spread all those

Interesting.

Let me start with the good news.  We publicize every single NCSA on the website and through the Volunteer.  Including dates, costs, locations, etc.  We have an application cycle that cranks up in the fall.

As a former wing DCP, I can assure you that wing encampments are similarly widely publicized, including dates and costs.

Solicitations are hard to avoid, really.

Next, l'm afraid that none of us get per diem or any costs covered for these kind of CAP activities.  I'm afraid that is a luxury that we are simply unable to afford.  And frankly, I'm not sure I want some cadet's dues or activity fees subsidizing my meals.

Third, are you really saying you would like me to spam you and all of the other seniors with faux-personal invitations to come help out at NCSAs and encampments?  I would have guessed that most members did not want me to fill their inboxes with that kind of thing, but maybe I was wrong.

Fourth, the reason that NSC is at Maxwell is that they use many of the professional full-time faculty of the Air University who graciously donate their time and services.  If we moved it around the country, we would vastly increase the costs to supply the first-rate instruction provided.

If you took a serious look at FEMA's budget, I suspect you might find that it is a little . . . larger than ours.

Finally, it is worth remembering that it is our volunteer leaders who set policy, not the Corporate Team members at Maxwell.  And every one of our volunteer leaders started out as a squadron member like you and me.  I worked in the field as a squadron guy for over 30 years before I was transferred to a higher headquarters.

I'm sorry you think we have to "sweeten the dough" to get you to volunteer.  Perhaps your situation will change in the future.

Ned Lee

[NC Hokie]

Why is when NHQ calls, "go through your chain of command."  Do that enough in my current Wing on occasions for flight training done and NOT even the respect of a return phone call.

I concur.  I'm pretty sure there's no way to quantify this, but there's enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that communication sent "up the chain" sometimes gets lost before reaching its intended destination.  IMHO, if NHQ sends out an "all call" they should have a means to collect the responses directly.

[Eclipse]

Us "volunteers" in the field do not have the luxury of taking 5 days off in a row to play "CAP Officer"

Then.  Don't.

Let me help you with understanding how CAP works.  You either show up or you don't.  Period.
If you're not there, we don't care why. Family commitments, job issues, rerun of Desperate Housewives you've only seen twice, it doesn't matter. 

CAP is a volunteer organization - all we can do is ask nicely, hope you show up, and honor any commitments you make.  We can't remotely influence your job, family, or other personal obligations, and holding NHQ responsible for the laws of physics (i.e. how long things take, cost, or the amount of advanced planning needed) is just unfair.

Either you're there or you're not.  When you're there, we should thank you for coming, and then do "stuff".
When you're not, we find someone else willing to be there. Or we don't.  If your personal situation does not allow flexibility, or you've chosen to burn your kitchen passes on something else in CAP (ES, AE, some other activity) Doris Day and Jimmy Stewart sang about this 50 years ago.

NCSA's, encampments, and similar activities are announced nationally via the CAP website, their own websites, meeting reminders, calendars, and messages that are regularly pushed through Wing and region channels to anyone who will listen, if you're not getting the message, blame either your chain, or your inability to use the InterWeb Tubes, not the activity POCs.

What's the commitment?   It depends. 

Commander and key staffers?  6+ months of planning meetings, generally weekly, plus RST and some encampments run mini-camps on top of the 1-2 week activity.

Cadet and mid-level staff?   A few planning meetings, plus RST.

TAC Officer?  Again it depends on the activity, but usually just RST and the activity, and sometimes not even that.  Some allow for assistant TACs that can't come for the whole encampment.

Cost? "It seems excessive?"  By who's measure?  Newflash - repeated BRAC'ing and program shrinkage have all but eliminated much of the resource pool you remember from your cadet days.  This isn't remotely NHQ's "fault", nor do they have many options to influence a change.

The bases are gone, as are the airplanes, buses, and people you remember being so cool to you 20 years ago.  There are Active Duty, Guard, and Reserve units that are having capacity and resource issues, so where do you think that puts us in the food chain?

Thank goodness for the few places we can still go to play.  I have yet to encounter a base commander who is unwilling to help us, but in many cases their hands are tied regarding the types of support they have to offer.  You also might be surprised how many government sponsored facilities actually charge for the use of their toys - things are tough all over.

Duration?  Two issues - first, an "Encampment", by definition, has a specific amount of curriculum hours which must be fulfilled - this is not optional or a suggestion.  Want the ribbon? You fulfill the requirment.  Cadet credit requires 40 hours, Senior or staff credit, 30.

Second, these activities aren't about hyper-focused cram sessions.  In many cases these are life-experiences that should be enjoyable for all parties.  In the words of a popular song, "Its The Climb".

Lastly - from those of us who have done it and are doing it, to those that think they know better...do it. Please.Run an NCSA, encampment, or just a wing-level training-focused activity (please make sure it has an aspect of regulatory compliance and oversight, just to make it more interesting), and then come see us.

We'll be over here with some coffee waiting to discuss how "easy" it was.

[Slim]

Commander and key staffers?  6+ months of planning meetings, generally weekly, plus RST and some encampments run mini-camps on top of the 1-2 week activity.

Six months?  What a luxury!  My planning cycle for the encampment I ran was a full year.  This year's encampment ended a month ago, and we're already into the planning cycle for next year.

Lastly - from those of us who have done it and are doing it, to those that think they know better...do it. Please.Run an NCSA, encampment, or just a wing-level training-focused activity (please make sure it has an aspect of regulatory compliance and oversight, just to make it more interesting), and then come see us.

We'll be over here with some coffee waiting to discuss how "easy" it was.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Save me a seat?

[NIN]

Holy left turn at Albuquerque, Batman!  This thread got seriously derailed quickly.

(and for the record, I'll be sitting with Bob & Slim in the coffee shop when its time to chat)

Just to put things into a little perspective:

In 1981, my first encampment cost $45 for a week.  Thats right, LESS THAN FIFTY BUCKS.   Even in 1981, going to say, scout camp or the local 4H camp cost a TON more than $45.  Oh, did I mention that included bus transportation to and from the activity? (my mom asked my squadron commander: "If I give you $90, can he stay for 2 weeks?"  Thanks mom!)

So in 2009, 28 years later, that same Wing's encampment at that same site, without bus transportation is $230.  About 5 times what it cost in 1981. 

Here's a hint: A LOT of things cost more in 2009 than they did in 1981, including those things that have a direct impact on the cost of a Civil Air Patrol activity.

Chief among those are things like billeting and meals which have a direct, per-person effect on the activity cost.  The DoD is not a charity, and if there is one thing that has gotten better in the last 25 years, I swear, its the beancounters and the lawyers. 

Gone are the days of 50 cent chow hall breakfasts served by "Cookie" with the cigar jammed in the corner of his mouth.  No, now you have surly contractors with beard nets in the nice new "DFAC" who scoop out carefully prescribed amounts of food.  That DFAC cost money, as did that slice of bacon.

BITD, the AF said "Yeah, this is what we charge our guys for chow.." and that was that, thats what we paid too.  Well, the cost of food went up, and the AF (and the DoD) discovered that while they were willing to subsidize the cost of service members eating, it was costing them a ton of money to subsidize everybody who might eat in the chow hall DFAC.   When the [Pick one or more: Boy Scouts, Campfire Girls, Local 4H Group, Youth Academy, Other] complained that they had to pay more than CAP did to use the DFAC, suddenly the JAGs wised up to the joint ethics regs and since we were now deemed "non-military" we stopped getting quite the sweetheart deal.  Oops, here comes the cost increases.  And we start losing things we got on a handshake 20 years ago. Buses? Yeah, sorry, can't let you drive those.  Ammo?  Tightly controlled.  Etc.

(Lest you say "we're part of the Total Force! We're part of the Air Force!" over my "non-military" comment above, please allow me to remind you about "Civil Air Patrol, Inc," the corporatization of NHQ in 1994, and the elimination of active duty military officers as state liaison officers. Shall we talk about how "military" we're considered by the AF/DoD now?)

Used to be that barracks were darn near free.  Stuff 60 cadets into an open bay, "CAP always leaves it cleaner than when we got it," and I'm sure that those buildings probably cost us $25 for the linen exchange for the week.  Find me open bay barracks on an AF base now.  (Volk Field & Alpena pop to mind, cuz they're CRTCs for the Guard, but there are only a few bases like that left)

So now you're paying for 2-man rooms that nominally have cleaning service, etc. They're not designed for "inspection" either.  And instead of paying $25/building for 30 cadets for a week, you're paying $25-30 per cadet per night.  OUCH. 

And I'm with Ned's school of thought here: I'm not going to let the troops subsidize my week.  $200 for a week is still *cheap* for billeting and meals and all the other geegaw.  I've even run encampments where the senior's fee  was a little bit less than the cadets to entice some senior participation.  It covered their direct costs (meals & billeting, their t-shirt, etc) and that was that.  Didn't affect the fee structure that much, because honestly, CAP is not making any kind of a "profit" on these activities. They're as close to break even as possible, and what it costs for cadets to go for a week is about what it costs a senior to go for a week.

Now, these folks in Nevada are trying to pilot an activity much in the same way that the folks in NC piloted their "Special Operations" fam course.  Bravo.  Not every good activity ever started at NHQ (sorry, Ned, Curt!).  Gotta start someplace, right?  But I'm sure they went to Creech or wherever they're holding this and said "OK, what will barracks cost for the week? OK, what about a per-head, per-day meal cost?" then cranked in their numbers and out popped the cost.  My bet is that they're not getting ANY subsidization from the AF, plus they need things like buses to get to the training sites, etc.  These costs add up afterwhile.  (Fueling a bus might have not cost us a nickle in 1981, because it was an AF bus with a AF driver and using AF fuel.  But in 2009, there are far more rules & processes in place to prevent abuse of the system, which means that unless someone higher in the food chain signs off, you can't precisely go down to the base motor pool and sign out a 44 pax bus and expect to put gas in it, too. )

<shameless plug>BTW, if you're looking for a relatively low cost facility for a cadet activity, located 30 minutes from a regional airport, try here: http://www.goarmycadets.com and visit the link under About -> National Cadet Training Center.</shameless plug>

Bottom line: things cost money. Shocker, I know.  Sucks.  Instead of living in nostalgia, however, perhaps we should just get with the times.

[RADIOMAN015]

To Ned & others......

Apparently my comments were taken in a negative way by some rather than a positive constructive way.

Again on "orientation" course length, if you can get it done in a shorter period of time why not    I'm not talking about power point, but this is an "orientation" program it is not necessary training but a sampling of experiences for that military career field.   

As far as possibly getting senior members participation in cadet activities via Thursday to Sunday activities versus a full five weekdays  why not

Finally as far as costs for attending  these courses, many of us are probably living in the past when cadets stayed in tents and basically there was some CAP member's kitchen staff to so the costs were very low.  You don't have to feed
the cadets a full course meal for breakfast, lunch, & dinner (in fact probably best to go light on lunch).  As an example look at the food costs for the NER SARCOMP was $37.00 & IF one choose to tent it for the weekend $8.00 (for the site, CAP special deal).     

I also have to wonder why AF Recruiting Services couldn't fund some of these orientation courses, especially if it is for the 16-18 year old  cadet group   Have they ever been asked    Being a cadet in CAP would seem to be a good use of "marketing" funds.
RM     

[Ned]

Again on "orientation" course length, if you can get it done in a shorter period of time why not    

It is not an inherently unreasonable position, but I tend to lean the other way.  The more time a cadet spends on an actual AF base in contact with our AF partners, the better. 

As it turns out, this particular course has a very busy training schedule and orients the cadets on more than just the SF career field, and includes some additional law enforcement agencies/programs.

As far as possibly getting senior members participation in cadet activities via Thursday to Sunday activities versus a full five weekdays  why not

It's done all the time.  Earlier this month, I supported the CAWG encampment by attending the first and last weekends.  I call it "bookending".  As a former encampment commander, I always appreciated having extra hands to help with the busy weekend time blocks. 

You don't have to feed
the cadets a full course meal for breakfast, lunch, & dinner (in fact probably best to go light on lunch). 

Indeed, if you look at the standard release boilerplate language on the F31, you'll see that each cadet agrees to "living for a period of one week or more on diminished rations . . . "

See, you don't have to feed them at all!  ("Here's your MRE for the week son, make it last. " )

[Eclipse]

Finally as far as costs for attending  these courses, many of us are probably living in the past when cadets stayed in tents and basically there was some CAP member's kitchen staff to so the costs were very low.  You don't have to feed the cadets a full course meal for breakfast, lunch, & dinner (in fact probably best to go light on lunch).  As an example look at the food costs for the NER SARCOMP was $37.00 & IF one choose to tent it for the weekend $8.00 (for the site, CAP special deal).

You're seriously going to try and compare a 2-1/2 day bivouac with a 7+ day NCSA for food costs?  Or suggest we can feed cadets "less" just to keep the cost down? 

For the activity you mention, its a minimum of $45 for the weekend, assuming you sleep in a tent, otherwise it's $102.50 - $122.00 if you don't.

Let's extend that to a week.

Assuming you don't want to sleep in a tent, the published cost for billeting is at least $32.75 a day, plus meals.  Were this to run a week, it would cost about ~$312 on the low end, and probably closer to $400 since most of the participants would be officers. (I'm pulling this right from the OPS Plan).

$400?  Seems excessive.

[lordmonar]

Billeting $34.75 X 7 nights =243.25
Meals $7X3X7=147

That's 390.25

That leaves just $9.75 for all the other costs.

As for the length.......well they are going to do a lot of cool things.

I mean if we boil encampment/NESA/XXFam Course down to the basics they all can be done on the a single weekend.

Instead of moaning over the costs and complaining about the problem....let's take Ned's advice and get involved.  I have alread volunteered to help out for this program.

[coolkites]

ok enough about the cost lets just say that the pricing is fair. Despite the fact that the pricing may be fair most cadets (myself included) still could not come up with that much cash.

[Flying Pig]

Mow yards!

[RADIOMAN015]

Billeting $34.75 X 7 nights =243.25
Meals $7X3X7=147

That's 390.25

That leaves just $9.75 for all the other costs.

As for the length.......well they are going to do a lot of cool things.

I mean if we boil encampment/NESA/XXFam Course down to the basics they all can be done on the a single weekend.

Instead of moaning over the costs and complaining about the problem....let's take Ned's advice and get involved.  I have alread volunteered to help out for this program.

Ok the cost is explainable.  With lodging being the largest factor (e.g. nice rooms versus nice tents).    We were fortunate for this year's wing encampment to get a non specific use donation from a local military service support club, and it was decided to pay for all our squadron cadets that wanted to go to encampment.  Perhaps for many cadet special activities units may be able to assist with at least partially financially assisting the cadet.   Perhaps especially in the air transportation, more "in kind" support could be provided by some of the exec jet type companies

It's great that you can take the time away from work & volunteer for this activity.  :clap:  (BTW I've used two (separate not consecutive) days of my vacation time in order to help install our new radio communications equipment (radio repeaters) at existing mountain/hill locations  -- So I do help CAP when I can).   

As far as Ned's advice, it seems to me that he is the guy who is whining because some on the list ask about costs & brings up the challenges & limitations that many senior members face when trying to support these type of activities.     Good Luck!!!
RM 

[RogueLeader]

I am quite convinced that if a person wants to do an activity sooo bad, that they will make it happen.  We had it done with the Combat Control Orientation Course.  The only reason that it only cost the Studets $150 was due to the huge amounts of MRE's that were donated to us as well as other donations.  We also slept in GP- Small tents.  If we did not have that kind of support, the Course would have been more expensive  than this SF Course.

It can be done.

[Gunner C]

I mean if we boil encampment/NESA/XXFam Course down to the basics they all can be done on the a single weekend.

I went to NESA this last summer.  It was 10 hours a day for 5 days.  It could have easily added two more days of class.  I've been to 4 encampments (back in the old days when they were 2 weeks long)  There wasn't any fat to trim off - I'm wondering how it's done in one week nowadays.

But I think boiling these things down to one weekend . . . I don't know what you'd do to make this happen besides just making it a shame/pencil whip activity.