Med question!

[Daniel]

Recently I was told by my school that they wouldn't accept my medication into their facilities.  The reason for this is the pharmacy where I get my meds doesn't put child proof lids on them, which I requested them too so I didn't have to get my mum to open them for me. and I was wondering if Cap medics have the same policy.

[Hawk200]

Not that I'm aware of. Your commander should be aware that you're taking medications, but I can't think of any issue because of it. We don't have anyone really functioning in a medical status.

[DC]

Not that I'm aware of. Your commander should be aware that you're taking medications, but I can't think of any issue because of it. We don't have anyone really functioning in a medical status.

I believe qualified personnel typically take control of medication and administer them per the prescription at most CAP events.

To the OP: That would be up to the individual medic, I've never heard of a policy like that in use at CAP activities. If the meds are stored properly then it shouldn't matter what kind of lid the bottle has...

[Cecil DP]

Suggestion: Take the med's back to the pharmacy and explain the problem. Ask them to fill the prescriptions 1/2 in the required cap for school and 1/2 in the non-child proof cap for home.

[Eclipse]

The only policy our encampment has is that the meds be in their original container with the cadet's name on them as is required by law.

Otherwise, a child-proof cap for a 12+year old is going to be pretty much irrelevant.

[LtCol Hooligan]

There is a National Board topic on this that will be discussed in September.  It was pretty interesting and gives us clearer instructions around this.  From what I can tell it essentially says that the medical officer can hold the perscriptions for the cadets, but they are required to take them at the correct times.

[Ned]

There is a National Board topic on this that will be discussed in September.  It was pretty interesting and gives us clearer instructions around this.  From what I can tell it essentially says that the medical officer can hold the perscriptions for the cadets, but they are required to take them at the correct times.

The NB agenda item is actually a little different.  It establishes a default policy that members (cadets and seniors) hold on to their own medications and self-medicate.  This is a sound policy that will provide overdue guidance to the field.

CAP personnel have no business taking and holding someone else's prescription medications.  In many states it is a crime to possess prescription medications without a prescriptions.

See the agenda item for additional details.

Ned Lee

[Eclipse]

The NB agenda item is actually a little different.  It establishes a default policy that members (cadets and seniors) hold on to their own medications and self-medicate.  This is a sound policy that will provide overdue guidance to the field.

CAP personnel have no business taking and holding someone else's prescription medications.  In many states it is a crime to possess prescription medications without a prescriptions.

Sorry, this is a very bad idea.

No one should take meds away from adults, that's silly.

Cadets are not adults, not even the 21 year olds (we've been here before).

If I, as the encampment commander, have personal loco-parentis-level responsibility for these cadets, I should certainly have the right to insure they are taking their required medication and no sharing it with their friends.

[Ned]

Sorry, this is a very bad idea.

No one should take meds away from adults, that's silly.

Cadets are not adults, not even the 21 year olds (we've been here before).

If I, as the encampment commander, have personal loco-parentis-level responsibility for these cadets, I should certainly have the right to insure they are taking their required medication and no sharing it with their friends.

For medical and state law purposes, anyone who has attained their 18th birthday is an adult.  With all the rights and responsibilities attached to that status.

IOW, you simply do not have loco parentis power over your adult cadets anymore than you do for your adult tactical officers.

The agenda item certainly allows you, if you choose, to help remind anyone to take their meds on time.


And you might want to check Ill. state law in this area, but in many states it is a crime for you to possess someone else's prescription mediications.  That's kinda the whole reason for a prescription in the first place.

And as we were researching this proposal, we were unable to confirm a single instance of improper prescription drug "sharing" in the history of CAP.  So it is hard to verify that this is a big issue.  OTOH we did find multiple instances where seniors lost or misplaced a cadet's medications, or simply had it in the wrong place when it was time for administration, leading to minor problems.

Remember, a person taking medication normally has a lot more experience in taking and storing that medication when compared to a well-inentioned but otherwise unqualified senior.

Let's see what our volunteer leaders do with the proposal.

Ned Lee

[arajca]

There is a National Board topic on this that will be discussed in September.  It was pretty interesting and gives us clearer instructions around this.  From what I can tell it essentially says that the medical officer can hold the perscriptions for the cadets, but they are required to take them at the correct times.

The NB agenda item is actually a little different.  It establishes a default policy that members (cadets and seniors) hold on to their own medications and self-medicate.  This is a sound policy that will provide overdue guidance to the field.

CAP personnel have no business taking and holding someone else's prescription medications.  In many states it is a crime to possess prescription medications without a prescriptions.

See the agenda item for additional details.

Ned Lee

Where can we see the agenda? It's not online.

[Eclipse]

For medical and state law purposes, anyone who has attained their 18th birthday is an adult.  With all the rights and responsibilities attached to that status.

IOW, you simply do not have loco parentis power over your adult cadets anymore than you do for your adult tactical officers.

Sorry, I disagree and so does CAP. They are not full adults in the eyes of the program, nor are they responsible for their own safety or actions in the eyes of the program.

It's be fine with me if they were, but they aren't.

A 20.999 year old cadet still has to be supervised by a senior member, even if that senior member is 18.1 years old.

[Ned]

Sorry, I disagree and so does CAP. They are not full adults in the eyes of the program, nor are they responsible for their own safety or actions in the eyes of the program.

It's be fine with me if they were, but they aren't.

A 20.999 year old cadet still has to be supervised by a senior member, even if that senior member is 18.1 years old.

Bob,

I'm not trying to pull a fast one here.  But 18 year old is an adult for these purposes in every state in the union.  I get the fact that they are also cadets and need to be supervised.  I really do.  As you know, I'm one of the biggest defenders of the 18-20.99 CP.

The status of being an "adult" and a "cadet" are not incompatible.  One can be both.  (And roughly a thousand CAP cadets are both.)

But this is a pretty simple area of black letter law.  Just like an 18 year old high school student is an adult for medical purposes.  Even though they are a high school student.  An 18 year old high school student can see a doctor on their own, get a prescription, and make life or death medical decisions for themselves.  To the exclusion of their parents or the school principal.

99% of adults working in the real world have supervisors who get to tell them what to do or not to do at work.  But that doesn't mean they are not legal adults 24/7.

(And the agenda should be posted on-line soon.  I just saw the final agenda yesterday through staff channels.0

[heliodoc]

Some senior members STILL need supervision....

CAP in its zeal to "do all things right" in the cadet program has lost its way when it comes to the individual needing and taking the prescription.

The "Volunteer Leadership" in CAP in the last 20 yrs or so has gotten so far off course with its "legal team" thinking they are protecting EVERY resource CAP has without a lot of common sense

Its time we treat some of the cadets as mature enough to take their own prescription(s)

With all of CAP's movement towards putting helmets on everything, senior members need supervision 'cuz they are all going into knipsitions (sp) over "SAFETY" at Maxwell.  I am sure it is driven by some 1AF stuff also.

Hopefully CAP DOES NOT get any more DHS/HLS missions, 'cuz they would try to MICROMANAGE everything as evidenced by something as simple as prescription medication  

[Eclipse]

Ned,

Its the same circular argument, one which would be negated if we just cut off cadets at 18 as many advocate.

The reality is that in a CAP context, which is all I care about, we're both basically correct, and those facts are somewhat opposed in their execution.

There is one thing, however, that can't be argued - if an HSO holds and tracks the meds, we will know where they are, and if a cadet has taken them (and conversely can react immediately if not).  Otherwise we have little control over that situation, and I'd prefer to explain to a judge why I felt the need to protect my cadets, than a parent why their son is in ICU because they decided this was the week to "show mom".

[Hawk200]

I believe qualified personnel typically take control of medication and administer them per the prescription at most CAP events.

So you're telling me that when the OP goes to his weekly meetings that he has to present his medications to someone at the meeting for them to give to him? Because that is going to be the majority of interaction he has when it comes to CAP.

[LtCol057]

From personal experience, I feel the meds need to be collected from cadets and they come to "sick bay" to get meds.  I was chief HSO at several encampments and 1 NCSA.  The last time I did it (Will NOT do that job ever again) I got a call a week after encampment ended. The parents of one of the cadets called the wing CC wanting to know why their son hadn't been given his meds during the week. He told them that we wouldn't give them to him. I pulled all the paperwork on this cadet.  First, the parents hadn't sent back any paperwork letting us know he was supposed to be on meds. Secondly, during the checkin, the cadet told us he was not on any meds.  He had kept them, and didn't take them.   

Because of that experience, I will NEVER work as an HSO at a CAP activity. That's a choice I've made, not someone else.  If meds are collected, and paperwork denotes meds, then the HSO staff can monitor administration.  If someone doesn't come get their meds, the HSO can track the cadet down.

[Cecil DP]

I think this whole discussion is situational and dependent on the cadet and medical situation. If a cadet has diabetes, he should be taking his medication with the encampment medical staff (only because of the needle involved), if he has a severe allergy, I wouldn't take their inhaler or epi pen away, because bees, wasps, and other allergens don't annouce their presence, and in severe allergies, seconds count.  As stated by Col Lee, holding a prescription for someone is illegal in most, if not all states. I would also be wary of trying to search down the medical officer and his key (you do keep the prescription drugs under lock and key), at odd hours of the day and night.

[isuhawkeye]

This discussion also leads into questions about the event HSO.  Depending on the Certification/Liscense level, and the rules of the particular state the HSO may not be legally allowed to maintain, or "administer" medications.  Again very case specific, but keep those things in mind when talking about how policies unfold.

[Ned]

This discussion also leads into questions about the event HSO.  Depending on the Certification/Liscense level, and the rules of the particular state the HSO may not be legally allowed to maintain, or "administer" medications.  Again very case specific, but keep those things in mind when talking about how policies unfold.

!.  Most encampments/NCSAs do not have any sort of HSO.  Qualifications and "scope of practice" aside, there are simply not enough HSOs in CAP who can make that sort of time commitment.  If we were to invent some requirement to have a CAP doctor or nurse at every encampment or NCSA, we would have to cancel almost all of our activities.  That can't be right.

2.  Since under our regulations, HSOs simply cannot provide routine medical care for our members, they cannot collect and store cadet medications.  Administering medications is pretty much, by definition, routine medical care.  Which CAP HSOs cannot do under any circumstnaces.

3.  Since HSOs cannot provide any non-emergency care, why on earth would we ever have "sick call" or anything remotely similar?  (Sure, if you have a Reservist doctor/nurse/medic etc., you might.  But not with CAP personnel.)  This is an extremely dangerous practice that threatens the very existence of our cadet program.

4.  Bob, you're right that by defaulting to a "self - medication model" we have, by definition, less control over the situation.  But that is as it should be.  Non-medical people are not remotely qualified to store, safeguard, and administer prescription medications. (Or to "react immediately" to any medication situation).  And CAP HSOs cannot and should not do it either.  So we should be leaving the responsibiity where it belongs -  on the individual member .

Ned Lee
Former CAP Legal Officer

[Eclipse]

In this case, the person storing the meds need not have any medical ability beyond using a watch and a spreadsheet - they are simply acting as the facilitator - they aren't administering, they are administrating.

By "react immediately", I mean - find the commander, and let the cadet know they have two choices - take their meds as prescribed and agreed to by their parents, or go home.  Period.

On the "sick call" nonsense, you and I have been in agreement since day 1 - thats just asking for trouble.

This is another troublesome area where NHQ has chosen to look the other way and grumble instead of taking a stand and directing the field.  The practice of storing meds is done at a lot of activities and encampments, and has years of precedent.  If NHQ chooses to direct the field to change things, I hope they will understand the full ramifications.

Further, if we're to take a "not my problem" approach to the meds, we might as well just delete the health information page on the 31, as it's really information no one at the activity has any use for.  If they get hurt, call 911, and then call mom.  That's all we're supposed to do now.  If they have a serious health condition, they should be wearing a med-alert anyway.  BTW - I'm not being sarcastic, I'd have no issue with this at all.

I would like to ask, though, who gets kicked when Johnny starts passing out his psychotics or concentration meds to other cadets who need a little "help".