Integrity in Honor Guard, etc??

[capchiro]

I have been told by a cadet that it is okay for cadet officers to wear cadet NCO rank while participating in Honor Guard.  (He may have also incuded Color Guard or Drill Team).  This seems contradictory to me when it comes to integrity.  Am I wrong?  Is this a common or recognized, or condoned, or standard practice?  Although I have many years in CAP, I have little experience in Honor Guard, Drill Teams, or Color Guard.  Is there a double standard for these cadets?  Am I out of line on this?  As usual, Thanks in Advance.

[John Young]

That's just silly.

That is a breach of integrity and regulation. Check out CAPR 52-16 2-4 part e. It forbades temporary or discretionary grades.

While cadet officers cannot compete in the National Color Guard Competition, nothing prohibits a cadet officer from participating in a non-competition color guard or honor guard. So, wearing NCO grade insignia isn't even necessary (integrity aside)

[Nathan]

I have been told by a cadet that it is okay for cadet officers to wear cadet NCO rank while participating in Honor Guard.  (He may have also incuded Color Guard or Drill Team).  This seems contradictory to me when it comes to integrity.  Am I wrong?  Is this a common or recognized, or condoned, or standard practice?  Although I have many years in CAP, I have little experience in Honor Guard, Drill Teams, or Color Guard.  Is there a double standard for these cadets?  Am I out of line on this?  As usual, Thanks in Advance.

I have never heard of this practice. I believe that in Color Guard, the teams are generally made up only of C/NCO's, but I was under the impression that anyone could fall into an Honor Guard.

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised. I am not sure about the normal rules of the Color Guard competition, but I do know that a local one only allowed C/NCO's, and unfortunately, this caused many a C/CMSgt to hold back on getting the Mitchell simply because they wanted to participate. It wouldn't be shocking for me to hear that C/Officers were pretending to hold C/NCO ranks simply to be admitted into the activity.

Regardless, whether or not it is condoned or standard, there are NO temporary demotions, promotions, or anything of that nature. Cadets wear the rank that they were awarded, period. Is it a violation of integrity? Absolutely. I see this as no different than a cadet lying about his or her age in order to attend NBB, or faking a promotion to get into Cadet Officer School. Lying about one's qualifications is a violation of integrity regardless of whether it results in a promotion or demotion.

[Al Sayre]

If squadrons are using the Cadet Promotions modules in eServices, this would be almost impossible to pull off.  It would be too easy to check and see the cadet's grade.

[Flying Pig]

I think its a dumb idea for CAP.  In the military, only enlisted can be on color guard.  I dont see why it should matter at all for a cadet program.   Why should cadet officers be excluded from color guard.  They are CADETS, dont penalize them because they are moving up in grade.

[Always Ready]

^Agreed. I've seen too many Chiefs blow their chance at progressing because they wanted to stay on the color guard and I've seen way too many Cadet Officers get burnt out early because they couldn't participate in color guard anymore.

I've witnessed some of these shenanigans (cheating on cadet tests, lying about their rank, giving color guard members extra testing periods, etc.). I think they are wrong and should be stopped. However, I think the 'lying about their rank' part could be remedied if color guard members are not restricted to Cadet NCOs and Cadet Airman.

****Note: Anyone who knows me knows I am not a big fan of CAP color guards, honor guards, drill teams, ranger teams, etc. for these reasons. I've seen them destroy a squadron in no time flat and I've seen them superficially build them up. I don't like that some individuals are so focused on one activity that if it fails, they're life is over. Those people are not well rounded, but if it keeps them in the program and progressing satisfactorily, then I can't and won't say much about it.****

[DBlair]

1. I have an issue with allowing Cadets to lie about their Cadet grade. This only serves to teach them that if you want something, it is ok to lie in order to accomplish it. This is a dangerous thing to teach them.

2. I have an issue with limiting Cadet participation in an activity beyond a certain CP achievement. This only serves to discourage them from continued progress and participation in the program- exactly the opposite of what those of us in CP are trying to achieve.

[DC]

Honestly, I don't have an issue with limiting CG participation to Phase 1 and 2 cadets. IMO Phase 3 and 4 cadets need to be focused on larger issues than Color Guard competition. I think Drill Team and Honor Guard are acceptable at that level because they require much more organization and coordination to pull off, presenting a serious organizational and leadership challenge to cadet officers.

I have a general issue with Cadet Competition in general though, because in my experience the cadets the truly get into it, get so into it that they forget about the rest of the Cadet Program. You wind up the Chiefs that can handle a flag with milimetric precision, but couldn't lead a horse to water if their life depended on it. All to often a cadet gets into CG as a Phase 1 cadet, and doesn't let go for the rest of their cadet career, to the detriment of both their squadron and their personal development in the program.

[Flying Pig]

I went to NCC 3 times in my 6 years as a cadet.  Placed 2nd all 3 times.  Myself along with the rest of the team were still very active.  We attended all of the activities, BCS, NCOS, NCOA, COBC, and 2 encampments, not to mention countless other activities.  Making it to Nationals is a HUGE Cadet Programs accomplishment.

Color Guard in CAP SHOULD NOT be limited to enlisted grades.  A life of a CAP cadet is very short as it is.  I knew many cadets who stopped promoting at C/MSgt.  (There was no SMSgt or CMSgt when I was a cadet) They stopped because they loved Color Guard.  And why should they have needed to let it go?  There is no reason at all that Cadet Officers should not be on Color Guard.  My Color Guard experience in CAP, believe it or not, got me onto the base color guard when I was in the Marines. I was a young Corporal, in a small Marine Detachment on a Navy Base. The Marine CO asked if anyone had ever done color guard.  I raised my hand.  He said, next week, have a color guard selected and trained.  I was on the team for a year before I moved to another unit, and we went everywhere!  So it paid off.  Are Cadet Officers really that busy that they cannot find time to be on a color guard or a drill team? 
Again, there is no reason for it.  Being a Color Guard Member in CAP was probably one of the most rewarding experiences I had.  Meeting vets, performing at ceremonies, meeting MoH recipients, public speaking because people always wanted to come and talk to us after the events.  To suggest cadets couldnt lead because color guard or drill team had something to do with it?   

[ZigZag911]

If we open up CG competition to cadet officers, there will either need to be a limit to the number of cadet officers on a team, or a weighting system in the judging (to balance out the experience levels somewhat, and keep it fair)

[Flying Pig]

  You pick the best. Plain and simple.  You don't win by balancing experience levels. 

[Ned]

Color Guard in CAP SHOULD NOT be limited to enlisted grades.  [ . . .]

Again, there is no reason for it. [ . . .]

Robert, recognizing that reasonable minds can differ on this subject, and recognizing that cadet officers can participate in well over 99% of CAP color guards (the only restriction is in NCC), let me suggest a couple of reasons why discouraging cadet officers from color guard competitions might be positive for the program as a whole.  The CP goal is not to have every CG cadet "win" at NCC, but to learn and grow and support the unit as a whole.

1.  By "graduating" a Mitchell awardee from the color guard, the squadron opens a slot to engage another more junior cadet to experience the same challenges and rewards that so favorably affected you.  After all, the number of slots on a competative color guard are very limited.

2.  By redirecting the cadet officer's attention and efforts into more "managerial" type roles, you reinforce their training as a cadet officer and hopefully get more useful work out of them planning unit training - including color guard activities and training.

3.  We reinforce the traditions of our parent service (as well as the USMC) who do not normally allow officers to serve on their color guards.  Obviously, not all military traditions translate well into the cadet environment, but this one does "fit."


These are just off the top of my head, there are probably some others.


Ned Lee

[Flying Pig]

Ned

I did not suggest winning at NCC was a goal of the Cadet Program.  However, for those who do, and for those who attended on teams, it is rather large accomplishment that usually is the result of years of practice, dedication and training in Drill, Aerospace, Leadership and Physical Fitness.  Seems to fit the Cadet Programs I grew up in.  All done while still participating in the Cadet Program in the units and Wings.
I was addressing a previous post that suggested cadets who get into Drill and Color Guard Competitions forget about the rest of the Cadet Program and "couldn't lead a horse to water." Thats DC's experiences, so I cant argue with that.  However, having been one of those cadets, I disagree that its a wide spread issue that warrants grade limits for the good of the cadets.
As far as cadet officers not being on color guards.  I don't agree with the restriction. I don't think the reasons the military uses for permitting only enlisted has any bearing on what CAP should do.  I dont think the Air Force will give us much heat over it.   Just my opinion.

[jimmydeanno]

it is rather large accomplishment that usually is the result of years of practice, dedication and training in Drill, Aerospace, Leadership and Physical Fitness.  Seems to fit the Cadet Programs I grew up in.  All done while still participating in the Cadet Program in the units and Wings.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but a Color Guard can EASILY put together a team that goes to National in their first year.  In 2005 the color guard I trained at my squadron won through region, easily. In my opinion, would have been the national champions that year had an unrelated issue not arisen that made them not allowed to compete.  They were all below C/TSgt and had less than a year in CAP.

The team that took second place was formed 3 days prior that year.

[Flying Pig]

I guess Im getting off point maybe.  I was referring to NCC not National Color Guard Comp.

[DC]

I guess Im getting off point maybe.  I was referring to NCC not National Color Guard Comp.

National Color Guard Comp is part of NCC, the other part being National Drill Team Comp, I don't see how you could refer to Color Guards at NCC and not be referring to NCGC.

[JayT]

I guess Im getting off point maybe.  I was referring to NCC not National Color Guard Comp.

They are one in the same.........

[DBlair]

I guess Im getting off point maybe.  I was referring to NCC not National Color Guard Comp.

National Color Guard Comp is part of NCC, the other part being National Drill Team Comp, I don't see how you could refer to Color Guards at NCC and not be referring to NCGC.

Actually, if I remember correctly, the CG competition started in 1996 and before that it was only DT. Those of us who were on NCC teams prior to the late 1990s, we seem to naturally associate the idea of NCC=DT. Thus, perhaps this is why he was thinking of it that way.

[DBlair]

If we open up CG competition to cadet officers, there will either need to be a limit to the number of cadet officers on a team, or a weighting system in the judging (to balance out the experience levels somewhat, and keep it fair)

  You pick the best. Plain and simple.  You don't win by balancing experience levels. 

I agree with the concept of picking the best- after all, it is a competition.

I was a member of NJ's NCC Drill Team and they selected (through an extensive tryout process) the best from all over the Wing into one team that then trained together. This is part of why the team was so successful. There was a huge mix of Cadet grades on the team, everything from lower enlisted to a variety of C/LtCols and C/Colonels. In fact, it was the Drill Team training (studying the material, mile run, etc.) that largely helped them advance in the Cadet Program. Thus, I think it can be of great benefit as it teaches the Cadets about the program and gets them more involved and motivated to advance.

Regarding focusing on one aspect, I must say that everyone has their favorite part of the program, be it DT/CG, ES, AE, Comm, or whatever the case may be, but I'd say in most cases, DT/CG teams are still very well involved in the rest of the Cadet Program as well. On my team we had a variety of GSAR school grads/instructors, Cadets who were pilots, a few who were Cadet Commanders of their home units, CAC reps (Wing, Region, and National), plenty went to NCSAs, and pretty much everything imaginable in the Cadet Program. Sure, the team had amazing esprit de corps as a team, but we were also members of our home units and allowed by our unit commanders to participate in the Drill Team as long as we didn't neglect our home units.

I've heard of cases in the past with DT members of various wings neglecting the rest of the CP and I feel this does a disservice to the Cadets as they don't get to experience all that is the CP. Then again, the same goes for units that focus almost entirely on ES or Flying- and I've seen plenty of examples of these.

While Cadet Officers are supposed to focus more on management aspects, there are areas where this doesn't always translate well.

In the DT, it was all about experience and ability, not about grade. Those who were most experienced in the DT would work closely with the SM Project Officers in training and administering the team. Sure, most of those experienced Cadets had diamonds on their shoulder (some were some were enlisted, though), but that was largely because they had been around long enough to have experienced a few Region or NCC competitions. It was a team atmosphere more than it was a unit atmosphere and Cadet grade didn't really carry as much weight as did experience.

For example, a new C/LtCol once joined the team and was being trained by a C/TSgt. Experience and ability was what was important to the team- if someone had a specialty in something, then they led that aspect. For example, one of the team members was a great runner (NCC Record of 4:19 for the mile, and a full track scholarship to Princeton) and so he led the running workouts. Another member was a star indoor and beach volleyball player and so he coordinated the volleyball workouts, and it goes on and on. The point is that it this case it was about the "team" and "teamwork" rather than about what was on their collar/shoulder or who was the Cadet Commander of the team.

With Color Guards, the fact of the matter is that if only enlisted Cadets can participate, then a) they are going to lose the desire to promote b) those who do promote aren't going to stick around helping to train the other members if they aren't allowed to participate as well. They may stick around for a bit, but they will start to feel like the CG team doesn't have a place for them anymore and will probably drop out of participation.

Think of it this way... if your favorite aspect of CAP was taken away from you, would you still be as active as you once were? If the only way you could participate in your favorite activity would be to not promote, would you stay enlisted? I feel that by limiting the Cadet grades on Color Guards, it serves to essentially cheat them out of the full CP.

An interesting thought... out of those SM pilots who primarily join due to flying (flying being their primary interest), I wonder how many of them would promote if they were told that after a certain promotion they would be grounded and could only do support tasks thereafter. How many would still promote, and if they were indeed grounded, how many would remain active in CAP?

On a sidenote... my experiences and opinions echo those of Lt Steht (FlyingPig) above- I feel that he is right on target.

[Flying Pig]

You and I probably competed against each other.  I attended NCC in 89 (or maybe) 90,91,92.  I left for the Marines in 93.  Each time we came in 2nd to NJ or NY.  You guys were solid. Or should I say Northeast Region.

[Maj Ballard]

From what I have been told, National Color Guard Competition was created (among other reasons) to make it easier for smaller units and lower ranking cadets to be able to compete successfully. Drill team competition is sometimes difficult because teams tend to be dominated by officers, especially at higher competition levels. Not to mention it's extremely difficult to put together 13 dedicated cadets for DT competition, for a majority of our squadrons. When cadets have complained that you can't "do color guard" anymore when you're a CAP officer, I point out that the only stipulation is that they cannot compete on a color guard, and then challenge them to go form a drill team. I actually kind of like competition color guard being limited to Cadet Airmen and NCOs. This provides newer cadets with something that's "theirs" to take and run with... something they can accomplish as a team and put their "book work" into practice before they move on to other CAP pursuits.

With that said, I've coached/escorted two competition color guard teams. Our first year ever competing (2007), the cadets received 2nd place in FLWG, and our second year in 2008 (with 3/4 of the team brand new), we won the National Color Guard Comp. During this national title run, 3/4 of the team were also our cadet command staff (Flt Sgt, Flt CC, C/CC) in the squadron. They did an outstanding job balancing their color guard responsibilities, which often included 3x a week practices, with their responsibilities at the squadron in general. Not one of them received a test score below 92 during this time. They won the Wing Academic Bowl twice. Two of them were phase cadets of the year for the Wing.

They continued to progress rapidly in the cadet program during the 10+ months the team was together, and our cadet numbers doubled. While our team commander did have to delay his Mitchell a few weeks because of NCC, as soon as we finished competing, he promoted. Two more of them received their Mitchell Awards within the next few months, as they became eligible.

As a side note, for most teams/wings, the "cycle" isn't 10+ months like it was for us, since Florida's Wing comp is much earlier than most wings, and because we went all the way to the NCC. For most competition teams, we're only talking 4-5 months here.

I guess what I'm saying is if you have cadets who cannot handle both the responsibility of color guard and the rest of the cadet program at the same time for a few months, perhaps some thought should be given to whether they should participate in "outside activities" for a time, until they develop an understanding of what's expected. In our unit, we didn't have the problems many of you have described. YMMV.

[A.Member]

I have been told by a cadet that it is okay for cadet officers to wear cadet NCO rank while participating in Honor Guard.  (He may have also incuded Color Guard or Drill Team).  This seems contradictory to me when it comes to integrity.  Am I wrong?  Is this a common or recognized, or condoned, or standard practice?  Although I have many years in CAP, I have little experience in Honor Guard, Drill Teams, or Color Guard.  Is there a double standard for these cadets?  Am I out of line on this?  As usual, Thanks in Advance.

There definitely is some inconsistency in the regulations (in re: who can participate and who should participate).  That said, no cadet should ever be wearing an incorrect rank, especially knowingly.  You're not out of line, IMO.

Your situation may differ but what I've found is that often cadets are left to run the cadet program often with little true oversight.  Oversight occurs only at the surface levels...when you peel back the layers a bit you might find something different.  On more than one occasion it's made me question if anyone reads 52-16 anymore.   As a result, some rules seem to have gone by the wayside and others seem to have been simply made up.  On more than one occasion I've discovered things being practiced that raised similar questions (ie. where did that come from? - that doesn't seem right).  When asked about the questionable practice the response has almost always been: "That's just the way we've always done it".  And there in lies the problem.  In some cases, I have shown cadets regs that specifically prohibit them from doing some of the things I've found.  Clearly, this was news to them.

Bottom line, it's good that you're paying attention and are questioning things when they don't seem right. 

[Flying Pig]

Although I dont agree with the restriction, what I REALLY dont agree with is allowing cadets to be dishonest to get what they want.  I have heard this argument also about changing ranks.  The line I have heard is "Well, I earned C/MSgt. so its not like Im wearing a rank I didnt earn."  True.  But the spirit of the regulations prohibits cadet officers.  By swapping ranks, your simply lying.  The regulation prohibits the CADET OFFICER as a person, not the pips or diamonds themselves from participating. I agree with Neds assessment that somewhere, someone decided to follow the military tradition, and allow the opportunity for younger cadets to rise through the ranks.  Sometimes one of the hardest tests of leadership and promotion is what you are required to leave behind.  Small, seemingly harmless decisions now, may make harder, real life ones easier later on in life. I guess it requires the Cadet Officer to put aside their desires and recognize the need to move on and mentor the younger generation instead of hoarding the goods for themselves.
The ends dont justify the means as they say.  And with the goal of the cadet program being developing dynamic leaders, I dont see anything good coming from allowing cadets to swap rank on the sly.  In this case, the lie is purely for personal glory.  When this lie becomes easy, what will be next?

[pthorburn42@gmail.com]

I am a Cadet Chief soon to be switching over to Senior member and working on wing staff. I have attended the national Honor Guard Acadmey and no cadet should every wear false rank on there uniform. it is punishible by federal law. Also, it can be grounds for termination. officers cant compete on the color guard compeition at any level. anyone who says otherwise is wrong. However they can preform and go to hga!

C/Cmsgt Thorburn
First Sergeant

[Gunner C]

Learn how to abbreviate:

C/CMSgt

[raivo]

no cadet should every wear false rank on there uniform. it is punishible by federal law

Err, no...

[Rotorhead]

it is punishible by federal law.

Okay, I'll bite.

I would love to see the cite on the law that prohibits this.

[TACP]

no cadet should every wear false rank on there uniform. it is punishible by federal law. Also, it can be grounds for termination.

HAHA, that greally gave me a good laugh. Cadets are not members of the military; wearing the wrong chevron won't get them thrown in jail. If it's an intentional break of integrity it could get them thrown out of CAP, but federal law doesn't govern that. Also, IMO no C/CMSgt should be serving on wing staff.

As for the actual subject, no cadet officer should EVER be wearing a lower rank to compete. My whole team was made of C/CMSgts when we did, requiring some of us to delay our Mitchell by many months when we went to Region. It's about dedication, not taking of your pips to play enlisted again.

[Eclipse]

As for the actual subject, no cadet officer should EVER be wearing a lower rank to compete.

So no one is validating grade of the participants?

[capchiro]

Either no or it is common practice to wear lower rank.  That is my concern.

[helper]

According to CAPM 52-4 NATIONAL CADET COMPETITION, there is a distinction made between color guard & drill team that permits cadet officers to participate in the drill team but not in the color guard. Note that the competition color guard "will ideally" be airmen & NCOs.

I do not know of any requirement that a unit color guard should not include cadet officers when appearing at a non-competition public function ().

CHAPTER 2 - NATIONAL CADET COLOR GUARD COMPETITION

2-1. b. A cadet color guard team will be composed of four cadets. The team will ideally consist of two cadet airmen (the guards) and two cadet NCOs (the flag bearers). The composition of the team and positions of team members must remain constant throughout the competition. A substitution must be approved by the NCC director. Participants must be listed on the Monthly Membership Listing prior to the competition. Teams are allowed to add one alternate team member (i.e.: a fifth cadet), who must meet the criteria listed in this paragraph. The inclusion of an alternate team member is optional. Cadet officers are not permitted to participate in this competition.

CHAPTER 3 NATIONAL CADET DRILL TEAM COMPETITION

3-1. b. A cadet drill team will be composed of 13 cadets (12 team members and one team commander). Teams are allowed the option of adding one alternate team member (i.e.: a fourteenth cadet) but the composition of the team and positions of team members must remain constant throughout the competition. A substitution must be approved by the NCC Director. Participants must be listed on the current Monthly Membership Listing prior to the competition. Cadets of any rank may compete.

[MSgt Van]

"it is punishible by federal law. "

  Uh, what? Yougoddabekiddinme. 

[JoeTomasone]

"it is punishible by federal law. "

  Uh, what? Yougoddabekiddinme.

It is against Federal Law to wear the uniform or parts of it unless you are RM or belong to an auxiliary or other organization permitted by law to wear it.

Hence, someone NOT in CAP wearing Cadet chevrons technically commits a Federal offense, but your odds of getting locked up for it are minuscule, if not non-existent. 

 

[Rotorhead]

"it is punishible by federal law. "

  Uh, what? Yougoddabekiddinme.

It is against Federal Law to wear the uniform or parts of it unless you are RM or belong to an auxiliary or other organization permitted by law to wear it.

I don't buy this. Again, I'd like to see a cite of the law.

[Eclipse]

"it is punishible by federal law. "

  Uh, what? Yougoddabekiddinme.

It is against Federal Law to wear the uniform or parts of it unless you are RM or belong to an auxiliary or other organization permitted by law to wear it.

Hence, someone NOT in CAP wearing Cadet chevrons technically commits a Federal offense, but your odds of getting locked up for it are minuscule, if not non-existent. 

Hmmmm, I don't know.  I grant the point, but cadet insignia is not the insignia of a military service, its specifically an insignia of a non-profit military auxiliary - not the same thing.  The uniform itself would be the more "risky" thing to be wearing, but the cadet would be authorized for that.

Also, doesn't there have to be an intention to misrepresent as a member of the military?  That would not be the case here.

Ethics violation - absolutely.  Failure of the senior leaders to vet the teams properly, sure.  Violation of federal law?  I don't think so.

[raivo]

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=70922

Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the
Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear -
(1)
the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy,
Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2)
a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the
uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps

Which doesn't technically apply in this case, as CAP members are authorized by the AF to wear the AF uniform. If someone's wearing it incorrectly, that would be a CAP regulatory matter, not a violation of the law.

Conceivably, wearing the incorrect insignia might invalidate authorization to wear the AF uniform, but...

But I'm not a lawyer, don't take this as anything more than musing out loud.

[davidsinn]

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=70922

Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the
Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear -
(1)
the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy,
Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2)
a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the
uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps

Which doesn't technically apply in this case, as CAP members are authorized by the AF to wear the AF uniform. If someone's wearing it incorrectly, that would be a CAP regulatory matter, not a violation of the law.

Conceivably, wearing the incorrect insignia might invalidate authorization to wear the AF uniform, but...

But I'm not a lawyer, don't take this as anything more than musing out loud.

It is illegal to wear the uniform of an auxiliary (us and the coasties) just as it is illegal to wear the uniform of the military if you are not authorized. However a cadet wearing incorrect grade is technically authorized the uniform.

[RogueLeader]

"it is punishible by federal law. "

  Uh, what? Yougoddabekiddinme.

It is against Federal Law to wear the uniform or parts of it unless you are RM or belong to an auxiliary or other organization permitted by law to wear it.

I don't buy this. Again, I'd like to see a cite of the law.

It s about half way down the page of this thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4395.msg84695#msg84695

[B.Kahuna]

I'm thinking of setting term limits for the competition CG at my squadron. Is two years reasonable? And would it make sense for me to require them to promote at least every three months?
Right now I have a lot of cadets in my squadron in love with color guard and everything about it. I'm trying to make sure they appreciate how friggin cool drill team can be and make sure I don't end up with 5 year chiefs or something. I also don't want to seem like I'm stepping on their toes just to beef up my drill team.

BTW, honor guard doesn't have any grade restrictions...no real reason to fake grade.

[Eclipse]

I'm thinking of setting term limits for the competition CG at my squadron. Is two years reasonable? And would it make sense for me to require them to promote at least every three months?

If you have a lot interested, I'd say field a new team each year, as to progression, yes, that's a good idea (its required after 6 anyway).

[Rotorhead]

"it is punishible by federal law. "

  Uh, what? Yougoddabekiddinme.

It is against Federal Law to wear the uniform or parts of it unless you are RM or belong to an auxiliary or other organization permitted by law to wear it.

I don't buy this. Again, I'd like to see a cite of the law.

It s about half way down the page of this thread: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=4395.msg84695#msg84695

Nope. Read it.

I want to see the cite from the CFR or USC that makes it against federal law to wear CAP insignia under false pretenses.

[heliodoc]

OMG!!!

Now the worries of impersonating CAPers?!?!?

Will the horrors ever end?  Get Stonewall out there to do CAP legit checks, pronto.

Quickly!!!    The program is sliding out of control ......... MP  and GT impersonators  ...oooooohh   nnnooooo

Is there a CFR out on that? 

[Hawk200]

Sheesh...

[SarDragon]

I am a Cadet Chief soon to be switching over to Senior member and working on wing staff. I have attended the national Honor Guard Acadmey and no cadet should every wear false rank on there uniform. it is punishible by federal law. Also, it can be grounds for termination. officers cant compete on the color guard compeition at any level. anyone who says otherwise is wrong. However they can preform and go to hga!

C/Cmsgt Thorburn
First Sergeant

Federal law? Really?

Tell you what, I'll even get you started on where to find a cite:  http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/

That's the current set of US laws that apply to what we're talking about.

Enjoy.

[heliodoc]

^^^^^
Now that is one great website!!

That ought to keep those CAP folks who are wanting to "cite please" Federal laws

Probably alot cleaner explanations on OPSEC and FOUO and NOT in the CAP sense either.  If one digs far enough.....

CAP folks quoting Federal law (cadets or seniors) need some clear educatin!     Or is that edumuckation?

[Hawk200]

Starting to wonder is there is a difference between a troll and toad.

I do know you should wash your hands after touching either one of them.

[JoeTomasone]

"it is punishible by federal law. "

  Uh, what? Yougoddabekiddinme.

It is against Federal Law to wear the uniform or parts of it unless you are RM or belong to an auxiliary or other organization permitted by law to wear it.

I don't buy this. Again, I'd like to see a cite of the law.

§ 771. Unauthorized wearing prohibited

Except as otherwise provided by law, no person except a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, as the case may be, may wear—
(1) the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform, of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps; or
(2) a uniform any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps.

[SarDragon]

However, I contend that Cadet Joey Bagodonuts wearing incorrect rank insignia is NOT a federal crime. That's the statement that prompted posting the link.

[JoeTomasone]

However, I contend that Cadet Joey Bagodonuts wearing incorrect rank insignia is NOT a federal crime. That's the statement that prompted posting the link.

Correct, and I never said it was.

[JoeTomasone]

I want to see the cite from the CFR or USC that makes it against federal law to wear CAP insignia under false pretenses.

The section I posted above would include CAP insignia inasmuch as it is similar to USAF insignia -- but it would have to be on a uniform. 

Anyone can get a set of bottle caps and wear them on their t-shirt.  Put them on ACUs and it's another story.

[Rotorhead]

However, I contend that Cadet Joey Bagodonuts wearing incorrect rank insignia is NOT a federal crime. That's the statement that prompted posting the link.

Correct, and I never said it was.

But that's what I asked for, because it is what the cadet stated.

[pthorburn42@gmail.com]

Maybe in your wing! but as said in national regulations, We are not subject to the uniform code of military conduct and thus cant be locked up for wearing a cap uniform outside of cap. the only thing that will happen is if you are a member then you will more thank likely be put on Suspension.

And by the way about wing staff, I will be a senior in 2 days and then my postion on wing staff we become official.

[raivo]

Maybe in your wing! but as said in national regulations, We are not subject to the uniform code of military conduct and thus cant be locked up for wearing a cap uniform outside of cap. the only thing that will happen is if you are a member then you will more thank likely be put on Suspension.

Erm... that's not what you said in your previous post, but okay...

And by the way about wing staff, I will be a senior in 2 days and then my postion on wing staff we become official.

Okay.

[AirAux]

I think the law everyone wanted to see is this one posted by John Kachenmeister in Feb. of 2008 under a different topic:

"False Personation of an Officer of the United States" (18 USC 44) is a felony, but requires specific intent to defraud another.

18 USC 33 sec. 702 makes it a misdemeanor (6 months in jail, max) to wear the uniform of the Armed Forces of the US, the Public Health Service of the US, or any auxiliary thereof.

Therefore it would appear that since we are the auxilary of the AF, anyone wearing our uniform or impersonating themselves as a CAP officer would in fact be violating a Federal law and subject to punishment.

[Eclipse]

Maybe in your wing! but as said in national regulations, We are not subject to the uniform code of military conduct and thus cant be locked up for wearing a cap uniform outside of cap. the only thing that will happen is if you are a member then you will more thank likely be put on Suspension.

I concur with AirAux - we wear a USAF variant under their direct authority - whether its based on wearing a USAF variant, or just the CAP uniform, per se, you could probably be prosecuted.  Further, if you in any way damage the corporation, whether in reputation or actual monetary damage, you'd be open to civil liability as well.

It might be unusual, but "unusual" doesn't mean "can't".  You might be surprised how tenacious a national corporation with the backing of the DoD and Congress can be if you poke them enough times with a stick.

[a2capt]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but a Color Guard can EASILY put together a team that goes to National in their first year. 

Our unit did it three times in the last 6 or 7 years. Each time the Color Guard make up was all new cadets, and one of them, two of the cadets had just gotten involved two weeks before they presented to a home game opening of the San Diego Chargers. The poor girl..   Her first public presentation was on the jumbotron.. Low pass fly-by's, and lots of military like action on the field at the same time. It was the opening of Fleet week in San Diego.

They did excellent, and they have done the Chargers twice and the Padres three or four times.

[C/Martin]

Hello, I am rather new to this (the website). And I have not read every reply. I have been a CAP cadet for a year and a half along with my second year of AFJROTC. And since I was i AFJROTC first I kinda have their opinion on it. I do not get why rank is a matter when it comes to drill. No one really stops in the middle of a color guard detail to look at ranks. In AFJROTC we have an honor guard that competes all across the State. The Cadet Colonel (the only one in our unit) did not serve as a flight, element, detail, or individual Commander. But, i the event he participated in he was an element leader or just someone in the formation. This is like that with every school that goes to competition. We give everyone a shot to participate and command. My CAP squadron's last Color guard detail I commanded it and the VA Flag was my Sq Commander still wearing his C/2Lt ranks and I in my C/MSgt ranks.

And to answer the question of integrity. Regardless how small of a lie or standard practice it is at the Academies and Active duty lying is lying.