Integrity in Honor Guard, etc??

[capchiro]

I have been told by a cadet that it is okay for cadet officers to wear cadet NCO rank while participating in Honor Guard.  (He may have also incuded Color Guard or Drill Team).  This seems contradictory to me when it comes to integrity.  Am I wrong?  Is this a common or recognized, or condoned, or standard practice?  Although I have many years in CAP, I have little experience in Honor Guard, Drill Teams, or Color Guard.  Is there a double standard for these cadets?  Am I out of line on this?  As usual, Thanks in Advance.

[John Young]

That's just silly.

That is a breach of integrity and regulation. Check out CAPR 52-16 2-4 part e. It forbades temporary or discretionary grades.

While cadet officers cannot compete in the National Color Guard Competition, nothing prohibits a cadet officer from participating in a non-competition color guard or honor guard. So, wearing NCO grade insignia isn't even necessary (integrity aside)

[Nathan]

I have been told by a cadet that it is okay for cadet officers to wear cadet NCO rank while participating in Honor Guard.  (He may have also incuded Color Guard or Drill Team).  This seems contradictory to me when it comes to integrity.  Am I wrong?  Is this a common or recognized, or condoned, or standard practice?  Although I have many years in CAP, I have little experience in Honor Guard, Drill Teams, or Color Guard.  Is there a double standard for these cadets?  Am I out of line on this?  As usual, Thanks in Advance.

I have never heard of this practice. I believe that in Color Guard, the teams are generally made up only of C/NCO's, but I was under the impression that anyone could fall into an Honor Guard.

To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised. I am not sure about the normal rules of the Color Guard competition, but I do know that a local one only allowed C/NCO's, and unfortunately, this caused many a C/CMSgt to hold back on getting the Mitchell simply because they wanted to participate. It wouldn't be shocking for me to hear that C/Officers were pretending to hold C/NCO ranks simply to be admitted into the activity.

Regardless, whether or not it is condoned or standard, there are NO temporary demotions, promotions, or anything of that nature. Cadets wear the rank that they were awarded, period. Is it a violation of integrity? Absolutely. I see this as no different than a cadet lying about his or her age in order to attend NBB, or faking a promotion to get into Cadet Officer School. Lying about one's qualifications is a violation of integrity regardless of whether it results in a promotion or demotion.

[Al Sayre]

If squadrons are using the Cadet Promotions modules in eServices, this would be almost impossible to pull off.  It would be too easy to check and see the cadet's grade.

[Flying Pig]

I think its a dumb idea for CAP.  In the military, only enlisted can be on color guard.  I dont see why it should matter at all for a cadet program.   Why should cadet officers be excluded from color guard.  They are CADETS, dont penalize them because they are moving up in grade.

[Always Ready]

^Agreed. I've seen too many Chiefs blow their chance at progressing because they wanted to stay on the color guard and I've seen way too many Cadet Officers get burnt out early because they couldn't participate in color guard anymore.

I've witnessed some of these shenanigans (cheating on cadet tests, lying about their rank, giving color guard members extra testing periods, etc.). I think they are wrong and should be stopped. However, I think the 'lying about their rank' part could be remedied if color guard members are not restricted to Cadet NCOs and Cadet Airman.

****Note: Anyone who knows me knows I am not a big fan of CAP color guards, honor guards, drill teams, ranger teams, etc. for these reasons. I've seen them destroy a squadron in no time flat and I've seen them superficially build them up. I don't like that some individuals are so focused on one activity that if it fails, they're life is over. Those people are not well rounded, but if it keeps them in the program and progressing satisfactorily, then I can't and won't say much about it.****

[DBlair]

1. I have an issue with allowing Cadets to lie about their Cadet grade. This only serves to teach them that if you want something, it is ok to lie in order to accomplish it. This is a dangerous thing to teach them.

2. I have an issue with limiting Cadet participation in an activity beyond a certain CP achievement. This only serves to discourage them from continued progress and participation in the program- exactly the opposite of what those of us in CP are trying to achieve.

[DC]

Honestly, I don't have an issue with limiting CG participation to Phase 1 and 2 cadets. IMO Phase 3 and 4 cadets need to be focused on larger issues than Color Guard competition. I think Drill Team and Honor Guard are acceptable at that level because they require much more organization and coordination to pull off, presenting a serious organizational and leadership challenge to cadet officers.

I have a general issue with Cadet Competition in general though, because in my experience the cadets the truly get into it, get so into it that they forget about the rest of the Cadet Program. You wind up the Chiefs that can handle a flag with milimetric precision, but couldn't lead a horse to water if their life depended on it. All to often a cadet gets into CG as a Phase 1 cadet, and doesn't let go for the rest of their cadet career, to the detriment of both their squadron and their personal development in the program.

[Flying Pig]

I went to NCC 3 times in my 6 years as a cadet.  Placed 2nd all 3 times.  Myself along with the rest of the team were still very active.  We attended all of the activities, BCS, NCOS, NCOA, COBC, and 2 encampments, not to mention countless other activities.  Making it to Nationals is a HUGE Cadet Programs accomplishment.

Color Guard in CAP SHOULD NOT be limited to enlisted grades.  A life of a CAP cadet is very short as it is.  I knew many cadets who stopped promoting at C/MSgt.  (There was no SMSgt or CMSgt when I was a cadet) They stopped because they loved Color Guard.  And why should they have needed to let it go?  There is no reason at all that Cadet Officers should not be on Color Guard.  My Color Guard experience in CAP, believe it or not, got me onto the base color guard when I was in the Marines. I was a young Corporal, in a small Marine Detachment on a Navy Base. The Marine CO asked if anyone had ever done color guard.  I raised my hand.  He said, next week, have a color guard selected and trained.  I was on the team for a year before I moved to another unit, and we went everywhere!  So it paid off.  Are Cadet Officers really that busy that they cannot find time to be on a color guard or a drill team? 
Again, there is no reason for it.  Being a Color Guard Member in CAP was probably one of the most rewarding experiences I had.  Meeting vets, performing at ceremonies, meeting MoH recipients, public speaking because people always wanted to come and talk to us after the events.  To suggest cadets couldnt lead because color guard or drill team had something to do with it?   

[ZigZag911]

If we open up CG competition to cadet officers, there will either need to be a limit to the number of cadet officers on a team, or a weighting system in the judging (to balance out the experience levels somewhat, and keep it fair)

[Flying Pig]

  You pick the best. Plain and simple.  You don't win by balancing experience levels. 

[Ned]

Color Guard in CAP SHOULD NOT be limited to enlisted grades.  [ . . .]

Again, there is no reason for it. [ . . .]

Robert, recognizing that reasonable minds can differ on this subject, and recognizing that cadet officers can participate in well over 99% of CAP color guards (the only restriction is in NCC), let me suggest a couple of reasons why discouraging cadet officers from color guard competitions might be positive for the program as a whole.  The CP goal is not to have every CG cadet "win" at NCC, but to learn and grow and support the unit as a whole.

1.  By "graduating" a Mitchell awardee from the color guard, the squadron opens a slot to engage another more junior cadet to experience the same challenges and rewards that so favorably affected you.  After all, the number of slots on a competative color guard are very limited.

2.  By redirecting the cadet officer's attention and efforts into more "managerial" type roles, you reinforce their training as a cadet officer and hopefully get more useful work out of them planning unit training - including color guard activities and training.

3.  We reinforce the traditions of our parent service (as well as the USMC) who do not normally allow officers to serve on their color guards.  Obviously, not all military traditions translate well into the cadet environment, but this one does "fit."


These are just off the top of my head, there are probably some others.


Ned Lee

[Flying Pig]

Ned

I did not suggest winning at NCC was a goal of the Cadet Program.  However, for those who do, and for those who attended on teams, it is rather large accomplishment that usually is the result of years of practice, dedication and training in Drill, Aerospace, Leadership and Physical Fitness.  Seems to fit the Cadet Programs I grew up in.  All done while still participating in the Cadet Program in the units and Wings.
I was addressing a previous post that suggested cadets who get into Drill and Color Guard Competitions forget about the rest of the Cadet Program and "couldn't lead a horse to water." Thats DC's experiences, so I cant argue with that.  However, having been one of those cadets, I disagree that its a wide spread issue that warrants grade limits for the good of the cadets.
As far as cadet officers not being on color guards.  I don't agree with the restriction. I don't think the reasons the military uses for permitting only enlisted has any bearing on what CAP should do.  I dont think the Air Force will give us much heat over it.   Just my opinion.

[jimmydeanno]

it is rather large accomplishment that usually is the result of years of practice, dedication and training in Drill, Aerospace, Leadership and Physical Fitness.  Seems to fit the Cadet Programs I grew up in.  All done while still participating in the Cadet Program in the units and Wings.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but a Color Guard can EASILY put together a team that goes to National in their first year.  In 2005 the color guard I trained at my squadron won through region, easily. In my opinion, would have been the national champions that year had an unrelated issue not arisen that made them not allowed to compete.  They were all below C/TSgt and had less than a year in CAP.

The team that took second place was formed 3 days prior that year.

[Flying Pig]

I guess Im getting off point maybe.  I was referring to NCC not National Color Guard Comp.

[DC]

I guess Im getting off point maybe.  I was referring to NCC not National Color Guard Comp.

National Color Guard Comp is part of NCC, the other part being National Drill Team Comp, I don't see how you could refer to Color Guards at NCC and not be referring to NCGC.

[JayT]

I guess Im getting off point maybe.  I was referring to NCC not National Color Guard Comp.

They are one in the same.........

[DBlair]

I guess Im getting off point maybe.  I was referring to NCC not National Color Guard Comp.

National Color Guard Comp is part of NCC, the other part being National Drill Team Comp, I don't see how you could refer to Color Guards at NCC and not be referring to NCGC.

Actually, if I remember correctly, the CG competition started in 1996 and before that it was only DT. Those of us who were on NCC teams prior to the late 1990s, we seem to naturally associate the idea of NCC=DT. Thus, perhaps this is why he was thinking of it that way.

[DBlair]

If we open up CG competition to cadet officers, there will either need to be a limit to the number of cadet officers on a team, or a weighting system in the judging (to balance out the experience levels somewhat, and keep it fair)

  You pick the best. Plain and simple.  You don't win by balancing experience levels. 

I agree with the concept of picking the best- after all, it is a competition.

I was a member of NJ's NCC Drill Team and they selected (through an extensive tryout process) the best from all over the Wing into one team that then trained together. This is part of why the team was so successful. There was a huge mix of Cadet grades on the team, everything from lower enlisted to a variety of C/LtCols and C/Colonels. In fact, it was the Drill Team training (studying the material, mile run, etc.) that largely helped them advance in the Cadet Program. Thus, I think it can be of great benefit as it teaches the Cadets about the program and gets them more involved and motivated to advance.

Regarding focusing on one aspect, I must say that everyone has their favorite part of the program, be it DT/CG, ES, AE, Comm, or whatever the case may be, but I'd say in most cases, DT/CG teams are still very well involved in the rest of the Cadet Program as well. On my team we had a variety of GSAR school grads/instructors, Cadets who were pilots, a few who were Cadet Commanders of their home units, CAC reps (Wing, Region, and National), plenty went to NCSAs, and pretty much everything imaginable in the Cadet Program. Sure, the team had amazing esprit de corps as a team, but we were also members of our home units and allowed by our unit commanders to participate in the Drill Team as long as we didn't neglect our home units.

I've heard of cases in the past with DT members of various wings neglecting the rest of the CP and I feel this does a disservice to the Cadets as they don't get to experience all that is the CP. Then again, the same goes for units that focus almost entirely on ES or Flying- and I've seen plenty of examples of these.

While Cadet Officers are supposed to focus more on management aspects, there are areas where this doesn't always translate well.

In the DT, it was all about experience and ability, not about grade. Those who were most experienced in the DT would work closely with the SM Project Officers in training and administering the team. Sure, most of those experienced Cadets had diamonds on their shoulder (some were some were enlisted, though), but that was largely because they had been around long enough to have experienced a few Region or NCC competitions. It was a team atmosphere more than it was a unit atmosphere and Cadet grade didn't really carry as much weight as did experience.

For example, a new C/LtCol once joined the team and was being trained by a C/TSgt. Experience and ability was what was important to the team- if someone had a specialty in something, then they led that aspect. For example, one of the team members was a great runner (NCC Record of 4:19 for the mile, and a full track scholarship to Princeton) and so he led the running workouts. Another member was a star indoor and beach volleyball player and so he coordinated the volleyball workouts, and it goes on and on. The point is that it this case it was about the "team" and "teamwork" rather than about what was on their collar/shoulder or who was the Cadet Commander of the team.

With Color Guards, the fact of the matter is that if only enlisted Cadets can participate, then a) they are going to lose the desire to promote b) those who do promote aren't going to stick around helping to train the other members if they aren't allowed to participate as well. They may stick around for a bit, but they will start to feel like the CG team doesn't have a place for them anymore and will probably drop out of participation.

Think of it this way... if your favorite aspect of CAP was taken away from you, would you still be as active as you once were? If the only way you could participate in your favorite activity would be to not promote, would you stay enlisted? I feel that by limiting the Cadet grades on Color Guards, it serves to essentially cheat them out of the full CP.

An interesting thought... out of those SM pilots who primarily join due to flying (flying being their primary interest), I wonder how many of them would promote if they were told that after a certain promotion they would be grounded and could only do support tasks thereafter. How many would still promote, and if they were indeed grounded, how many would remain active in CAP?

On a sidenote... my experiences and opinions echo those of Lt Steht (FlyingPig) above- I feel that he is right on target.

[Flying Pig]

You and I probably competed against each other.  I attended NCC in 89 (or maybe) 90,91,92.  I left for the Marines in 93.  Each time we came in 2nd to NJ or NY.  You guys were solid. Or should I say Northeast Region.