Satisfactory Cadet Progression

[Horn229]

Unless of course they do not progress and stay as a career C/CMSgt or C/2Lt, but then again, that violates the cadet oath.

*sigh*

Why do people say that? It doesn't say that. It says "Advance my education and training rapidly, to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation" not "promote real fast so that my squadron/wing can boost their statistics".

I was a C/2d Lt for over two years, a C/1st Lt for a year, and I've been a C/Maj now for nearly 2 years now. Am I violating the oath? Nope. Why? Because I have and am still advancing my education, and constantly training so that I can be of service to my community state and nation. I'm active in ES, I'm the DOS for my squadron, and the ground ES training guy for the wing.

In fact, just yesterday was our GTE, and the ground portion (I was GBD) did a very good job. If we were able to get the grade we did on a training mission, then I just hope we can get a "satisfactory" (completing the mission) on the next redcap.

Now if a cadet isn't promoting, and isn't doing anything else in CAP to be constantly learning something, then there is a problem. Personally, I've always been in favor of taking your time while promoting. When you sit at the various achievements, you learn more. When you force people to speed through the ranks, you're cheating them out great leadership learning experiences.

/rant

[AlphaSigOU]

Unless of course they do not progress and stay as a career C/CMSgt or C/2Lt, but then again, that violates the cadet oath.

*sigh*

Why do people say that? It doesn't say that. It says "Advance my education and training rapidly, to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation" not "promote real fast so that my squadron/wing can boost their statistics".

I was a C/2d Lt for over two years, a C/1st Lt for a year, and I've been a C/Maj now for nearly 2 years now. Am I violating the oath? Nope. Why? Because I have and am still advancing my education, and constantly training so that I can be of service to my community state and nation. I'm active in ES, I'm the DOS for my squadron, and the ground ES training guy for the wing.

In fact, just yesterday was our GTE, and the ground portion (I was GBD) did a very good job. If we were able to get the grade we did on a training mission, then I just hope we can get a "satisfactory" (completing the mission) on the next redcap.

Now if a cadet isn't promoting, and isn't doing anything else in CAP to be constantly learning something, then there is a problem. Personally, I've always been in favor of taking your time while promoting. When you sit at the various achievements, you learn more. When you force people to speed through the ranks, you're cheating them out great leadership learning experiences.

/rant

I agree with C/Maj Horn. 'Rank cranking' isn't the be-all-end-all to progress through the cadet program. The regs specify only a minimum time in grade to progress and earn milestone awards. BITD WIWAC I spent a good deal of time in the lower cadet airman/NCO grades. Did it make me any less of a cadet than others who blew through their achievements to higher grade? No. Now, if a cadet isn't doing anything to advance himself or herself, then that's when they should reevaluate their participation as cadets.

[Eclipse]

I was a C/2d Lt for over two years, a C/1st Lt for a year, and I've been a C/Maj now for nearly 2 years now. Am I violating the oath? Nope. Why? Because I have and am still advancing my education, and constantly training so that I can be of service to my community state and nation. I'm active in ES, I'm the DOS for my squadron, and the ground ES training guy for the wing.

Two years in a grade is too long.  Clocks start ticking after 6 months of no promotion, that's the program you joined.

I don't know how old you are, but as a crusty C/Maj, you should be at or close to Spaatz. Should you ultimately not attain C/Col, you'll have no one to blame but yourself, as I see about 3-4 years of wasted time.  That means leadership opportunities have been lost for your unit, and doors are closed to opportunities you may have had.

There's a reason for the progression requirement - we don't want stagnant "Leadership Corps" types who reach a certain grade and then level out.  As a cadet you should be reaching up in the program the whole time you are in it.  Cadets harp on Seniors who are "lifetime Captains" but many seem to think it is just fine for them. This is one of the reasons I support the CP so much, it is one of the few programs of its type that still has an expectation of performance.

We're not talking about rank cranking, we're talking about working the program as it is defined.
If the issue is a cadet who chooses to do ES to the detriment of his CAP career, meaning he's testing and failing regularly, I would counsel him to reduce his ES time a bit and focus on the tests. 

If its because he is ignoring progression, then the counsel is to forget about ES for a while and work on his CAP career. ES, color guards, drill teams, and similar activities are great "nice to haves", but as has been pointed out numerous times here and other boards, they are not core components of the CP, and therefore core activities must take precedence over the less important stuff.

Either way, once that magic 6 months passes, uncomfortable conversations are on the horizon.

Don't forget, grade is not all about YOU, it is also about what it means to those coming up behind you. 

[Horn229]

Two years in a grade is too long.  Clocks start ticking after 6 months of no promotion, that's the program you joined.

Not really. I think I've spent a proper ammount of time in each grade. When I was a C/2d Lt, I held 2 positions in my squadron, went to ANGSAR, got some comm ratings, and joined wing staff. I learned a lot about leadership, the ins and outs of the executive side of the house, and when I was ready for another promotion I persued it.

I don't know how old you are, but as a crusty C/Maj, you should be at or close to Spaatz. Should you ultimately not attain C/Col, you'll have no one to blame but yourself, as I see about 3-4 years of wasted time.  That means leadership opportunities have been lost for your unit, and doors are closed to opportunities you may have had.

I've got 1.5 years left as a cadet. What exactly is a "crusty C/Maj"? The only thing that's been holding me up from getting light colonel is the AFIADL 13. I can't figure out how to order the AFIADL 13 test, I've had the books for a while now, just need to order the test. But why should my ultimate goal be the spaatz? I've had quite a few senior members bug me about the spaatz. Sure it would be great to get, and I'll most likely be dissapointed if I don't get it, but is it really the end of the world?

I joined CAP for the ES portion. Over the last few years I've done two flight encampments, NFA-G out there in Mattoon, and last year I even did JFE and went through the balloon couse. Oh, and of course I've also done NGSAR staff and Encampment staff. I've been incredibly active in all aspects of CAP. And I think I can say that I've learned a lot about CAP and leadership, and I think I've learned more than some spaatz cadets have. But will I be dissapointed if I don't get the spaatz? Yup. Will it be the end of the world for me? No.

There's a reason for the progression requirement - we don't want stagnant "Leadership Corps" types who reach a certain grade and then level out.  As a cadet you should be reaching up in the program the whole time you are in it.  Cadets harp on Seniors who are "lifetime Captains" but many seem to think it is just fine for them. This is one of the reasons I support the CP so much, it is one of the few programs of its type that still has an expectation of performance.

I'm with you on that. But as long as they're doing something to stay active in the program and learn, that's all that should really matter. Just because someone isn't getting more pips/diamonds doesn't mean they're not doing anything to learn how to be a better leader.

We're not talking about rank cranking, we're talking about working the program as it is defined.
If the issue is a cadet who chooses to do ES to the detriment of his CAP career, meaning he's testing and failing regularly, I would counsel him to reduce his ES time a bit and focus on the tests.

If you're trying to imply that I'm having trouble with the tests, you'd be wrong. I finished achievement 15 over a year ago, I just don't have the AFIADL 13 done.  

If its because he is ignoring progression, then the counsel is to forget about ES for a while and work on his CAP career. ES, color guards, drill teams, and similar activities are great "nice to haves", but as has been pointed out numerous times here and other boards, they are not core components of the CP, and therefore core activities must take precedence over the less important stuff.

So what exactly is a "core activity" of the program?

Either way, once that magic 6 months passes, uncomfortable conversations are on the horizon.

Don't forget, grade is not all about YOU, it is also about what it means to those coming up behind you. 

Well then pardon me for be selfish, but I'd rather promote when I feel that I'm ready, than be forced to promote and end up being one of the "He is what you get when you don't do ____" examples.

Oh and since the cadet program is really about teaching followership skills then moving on to leadership and management skills, doing Ground Team is a great resource to learn some of those skills. I've been doing GT stuff some '98, and I've been leading/instructing teams at NGSAR since '02, and I've been the GBD in my wing for over a year.

Being a GTM is a great way to teach practical teamwork skills. Acting as a GTL is a just another form of being a Flight Commander, and being a GBD is a great way to hone some C/CC duties, or mangement style skills.

[Eclipse]

A "crusty C/Maj" is one who has been in grade for two years, with his Spaatz clock ticking and can't figure out who to ask for help with the an ECI Course.  Or how about a C/Maj who believes ES is part of the core of the CP.  Its beneficial, yes, and I encourage it, but there are probably more cadets units than not who have zero ES involvement and are still very successful.

You are attempting to take the tac many Seniors do - "I've been too busy shoring up the program to worry about my own progression."

That's nonsense, but unfortunately too many cadets and Seniors take the "easy" way out and use this excuse.

"Easy way out?"  Do you know how busy I was doing X-Y-& Z?!?!?!" 

Yes, the "easy way out".  By "easy", I mean little to no barometer of performance.
You can trot around, find some ELT's, go to encampments, etc., do some staff work, but these activities don't have the hard-fast finality of a TEST. 

Its much easier to be "too busy" to progress and then clock out of Spaatz, then apply yourself, step up and take your shot at the tests.

Flame away if you like, but your unit CC has been doing you a disservice not pushing you to progress.

One of the great things about the CP is that it forces young people out of their comfort zones and pushes them towards a goal - assuming no one presents the "easy" way out.

Besides, C/Maj if you really do the math, you are probably really stuck, mentally, at C/Capt.  C/Maj, for practical purposes, is a gimme. 

Come on, you can almost feel the extra weight of the second diamond, and you know if you really busted ass you could make the third.

With all the hard work you've put in, you deserve the credit and the "street cred" that comes with Spaatz.

Besides, think of all the fun you could have being a "know-it-all" 21-year old Senior Captain!

[Pylon]

I was a C/2d Lt for over two years, a C/1st Lt for a year, and I've been a C/Maj now for nearly 2 years now. Am I violating the oath? Nope. Why? Because I have and am still advancing my education, and constantly training so that I can be of service to my community state and nation. I'm active in ES, I'm the DOS for my squadron, and the ground ES training guy for the wing.

Two years in a grade is too long.  Clocks start ticking after 6 months of no promotion, that's the program you joined.

I don't know how old you are, but as a crusty C/Maj, you should be at or close to Spaatz. Should you ultimately not attain C/Col, you'll have no one to blame but yourself, as I see about 3-4 years of wasted time.  That means leadership opportunities have been lost for your unit, and doors are closed to opportunities you may have had.

There's a reason for the progression requirement - we don't want stagnant "Leadership Corps" types who reach a certain grade and then level out.  As a cadet you should be reaching up in the program the whole time you are in it.  Cadets harp on Seniors who are "lifetime Captains" but many seem to think it is just fine for them. This is one of the reasons I support the CP so much, it is one of the few programs of its type that still has an expectation of performance.

We're not talking about rank cranking, we're talking about working the program as it is defined.
If the issue is a cadet who chooses to do ES to the detriment of his CAP career, meaning he's testing and failing regularly, I would counsel him to reduce his ES time a bit and focus on the tests. 

If its because he is ignoring progression, then the counsel is to forget about ES for a while and work on his CAP career. ES, color guards, drill teams, and similar activities are great "nice to haves", but as has been pointed out numerous times here and other boards, they are not core components of the CP, and therefore core activities must take precedence over the less important stuff.

Either way, once that magic 6 months passes, uncomfortable conversations are on the horizon.

Don't forget, grade is not all about YOU, it is also about what it means to those coming up behind you. 

Bob, I have to respectfully disagree with you here, too.  Of course we don't want cadets to stagnate at a certain level, become content with wherever they are in the program, and do nothing but show up to meetings.  However, you have to remember that there are other factors in life that come before Civil Air Patrol, and for many, this is namely "College."

I got my Mitchell in 1998 and by the end of my cadet career in 2004, I had only promoted to C/Capt.  Was I a lazy bum who desecrated the cadet oath and who was an abomination to the core values of the CAP cadet corps?  I doubt it.  I wasn't around much after I graduated high school.  I moved away to college, lived on a residential campus without a car.  There was no opportunity to attend a CAP meeting for me while I was at college -- and I didn't.  During the summers, I focused on something that would actually get me somewhere in life -- particularly job skills and work experience.  I knew enough to realize my future employer would not make a hire or fire decision based on the words Eaker or Spaatz versus Earhart on my resume, but work experience would make that difference.

It's easy to chastize the nameless, ideal cadet for failing to progress because in an ideal world, they'd just be slacking if they weren't cranking out a promotion every 6 months.  In the real world, there's a lot more to the CAP Cadet Program and while cadets learn more as they progress, certain things (especially college) interfere with this.  If that's unacceptable to you, then you're probably going to have to terminate every cadet that goes away to college, at the cost of alientating any potential future cadets become senior members who would serve in your unit.

[Hammer]

Two years in a grade is too long.  Clocks start ticking after 6 months of no promotion, that's the program you joined.

What happens six months after no promotion?

[Eclipse]

Two years in a grade is too long.  Clocks start ticking after 6 months of no promotion, that's the program you joined.

What happens six months after no promotion?

IAW CAPR 52-16:

Page 8, Section 2-1, g
2-3 PROGRESSION.
g. Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3 Membership Termination ).

At 6 months with no indication of a further plan, there is the seed of a problem.  At one year, we are into potential 2b territory, and now that cadet is behind the 8-ball.

I'm not saying that an active cadet should be term'ed at day 366 for non-progression, but certainly serious discussions need to be had regarding where that cadet is focusing his efforts.  Seniors who allow cadets to put too much on their plate are not doing them a service.

I don't think one click up a year is too much to ask.

[Nathan]

At 6 months with no indication of a further plan, there is the seed of a problem.  At one year, we are into potential 2b territory, and now that cadet is behind the 8-ball.

I'm not saying that an active cadet should be term'ed at day 366 for non-progression, but certainly serious discussions need to be had regarding where that cadet is focusing his efforts.  Seniors who allow cadets to put too much on their plate are not doing them a service.

I don't think one click up a year is too much to ask.

Agreed.

The tests are honestly not that hard. Most of the tests that I've taken I've been able to pass or nearly pass with nothing but common sense and a little prior knowledge learned at encampment.

When you have someone who suffers from the infamous Mitchell Syndrome for over a year... well, basically it means that they're in it for:

A) The military benefits awarded with the Mitchell
B) Access to CAP only activities like PJOC and NBB
C) To keep wearing a uniform

As much as the little hooahs want to believe it, we're not the military, and in the cadet side, we aren't expected to stick to Captain for eight years. If someone is sticking around too long at any grade (besides C/Lt Col and C/Col, I suppose), they need to seriously be questioned. A leader is supposed to lead, not stagnate.

[Horn229]

A "crusty C/Maj" is one who has been in grade for two years, with his Spaatz clock ticking and can't figure out who to ask for help with the an ECI Course.  Or how about a C/Maj who believes ES is part of the core of the CP.  Its beneficial, yes, and I encourage it, but there are probably more cadets units than not who have zero ES involvement and are still very successful.

You are attempting to take the tac many Seniors do - "I've been too busy shoring up the program to worry about my own progression."

That's nonsense, but unfortunately too many cadets and Seniors take the "easy" way out and use this excuse.

"Easy way out?"  Do you know how busy I was doing X-Y-& Z?!?!?!" 

Yes, the "easy way out".  By "easy", I mean little to no barometer of performance.
You can trot around, find some ELT's, go to encampments, etc., do some staff work, but these activities don't have the hard-fast finality of a TEST. 

Its much easier to be "too busy" to progress and then clock out of Spaatz, then apply yourself, step up and take your shot at the tests.

Flame away if you like, but your unit CC has been doing you a disservice not pushing you to progress.

One of the great things about the CP is that it forces young people out of their comfort zones and pushes them towards a goal - assuming no one presents the "easy" way out.

Besides, C/Maj if you really do the math, you are probably really stuck, mentally, at C/Capt.  C/Maj, for practical purposes, is a gimme. 

Come on, you can almost feel the extra weight of the second diamond, and you know if you really busted ass you could make the third.

With all the hard work you've put in, you deserve the credit and the "street cred" that comes with Spaatz.

Besides, think of all the fun you could have being a "know-it-all" 21-year old Senior Captain!

Ya, I guess you're right. I have taken the easy way out. I've done nothing of importance for the last year.

I mean, I only finished up achievement 15 in early '05, to turn around and take care of my dad who was in his final months. Ya, I'd stay at home all day every day and watch my dad's declining health, while there was nothing I could do to help him, except do what I could to ease his life by doing the little stuff for him to either make him happy or comfortable.

Had I really sat down and re thought my priorities, I could have just gone out, gotten a job, studied for the spaatz, and achieved the oh so covetted title of Cadet Colonel and ignored my dad let him just die off. Who cares right, he was going to die anyway?

Excuse me. I was "busy" and still am. I went from taking care of my dad while he was dieing, then when he passed away we buried him. The exact same day of the funeral I left to go to JFE. Afte JFE ended I had a little bit of time to relax, then went to NGSAR for 2 weeks. After then I had about 2 weeks to relax then went to encampment. After that I had 3 weeks to relax then started college.

Ya, I should've blown off my family, and stuff that I'd already paid for and gotten promoted. Yup, that would make me real happy, and an excellent role model.

I'm done with this conversation.

[Eclipse]

Please, save the indignant attitude. We all have life issues, and none of the challenges with your father were brought up until this minute. Unless he was ill for an extended period, it doesn't speak to the issues of your 2 years as a 2nd Lt, which is likely where your problems started.

You also can't make the argument that the exception makes the rule, which should be a ribbon
in CAP, because many members, senior and cadet, think policy should be based on exceptions.

Commander's discretion is designed for your situation, but the proper atmosphere of positive pressure from the start would have not left you in the position you were in when time started getting tight for you. More push as a 2nd Lt might have you at Spaatz now.

Which is another of the reasons the CP pushes progression.  NHQ realizes that the older you get, the more divided your time becomes, making it even harder to stay engaged.

Beyond that you are making my argument for me.  When your unit CC approved your participation in JFE and GSAR, he should have been looking at your current state in the program and discussed if these "extracurricular" activities were where you should be spending your time.  That's one of the reasons we are supposed to sign off on these - to be part of the process in deciding whether a respective activity is a good fit. (Though many CC's never even look at the forms, which defeats the purpose).

I can't tell you how any conversations I have had with Unit CC's who have sent cadets, who for one reason or another should have never gotten their blessing to attend ILWG Spring.  When I
bring it to their attention that the Unit CC is there to guide the career of a cadet, many are shocked at the concept.

But that is our job, to make sure you can engage in the program at a level that fits both the requirements, your abilities, and your current state of life.  And when that fit becomes out of balance it is time for a change. Whether that means a hiatus, adjustment of activities, a transfer or a 2b depends on the situation.

[Pylon]

Bob, you still haven't addressed the college situation.  Many cadets go off to college.  It isn't necessarily a choice to stop participating in CAP at that point.  I used my situation as an example of this -- I lived on campus for 4 years at a small, private residential college in Loudonville, New York (rural Albany county).  I didn't own a car nor have access to one until after I graduated college.  There were no other CAP members at my college that I was aware of.  There wasn't even AFROTC.

For a portion of my college years, I lived in France while I studied at the University of Paris.

Both of these situations made it impossible for me to participate effectively in my promotion process or CAP in general.   I had the rare opportunity to participate in IACE, however, over one of the summer vacations.  If I had terminated my cadet membership, I would have missed out on the opportunity that is still the highlight of my CAP career.

In addition, if someone had terminated my membership for failure to progress satisfactorily, do you think I'd still be in CAP as a senior member, working in the cadet program, and carrying on 3+ duty assignments?   Definitely not.

You have to consider the spirit of that oath and progression suggestions in a real world context.  That's why commander's discretion is there.

[Pylon]

I also split this topic from the flight suit discussion from the uniforms section, since there were clearly two very distinct conversations overlapping there.

[Hammer]

Two years in a grade is too long.  Clocks start ticking after 6 months of no promotion, that's the program you joined.

What happens six months after no promotion?

IAW CAPR 52-16:

Page 8, Section 2-1, g
2-3 PROGRESSION.
g. Cadets who fail to progress in the Cadet Program by completing at least two achievements per year may be terminated from the program (see CAPR 35-3 Membership Termination ).

At 6 months with no indication of a further plan, there is the seed of a problem.  At one year, we are into potential 2b territory, and now that cadet is behind the 8-ball.

I'm not saying that an active cadet should be term'ed at day 366 for non-progression, but certainly serious discussions need to be had regarding where that cadet is focusing his efforts.  Seniors who allow cadets to put too much on their plate are not doing them a service.

I don't think one click up a year is too much to ask.

WOW.  There's a C/Lt Col with a date of rank of March 2003!! in my Squadron.  Nothing was ever said/done to him.

[Pylon]

WOW.  There's a C/Lt Col with a date of rank of March 2003!! in my Squadron.  Nothing was ever said/done to him.

That also may be a factor of the testing restrictions on the Spaatz exam.  A cadet may make only three attempts to successfully pass all the portions of the Spaatz examination.  After the third failed try, they are no longer allowed to re-test and would have to remain a C/Lt Col.  This is a distinct possibility for some.

[dwb]

Maybe I've just lowered my standards, but I'm happy to see cadets who reach Phase IV.  In two years when Nick is a s'member, I wouldn't bash him if C/Maj were as far as he got.  C/Maj is great!  Good for him!

I think a cadet's progression, frankly, is between him and his commander (I'm not going to play the pronoun game, but assume him/her substitutions as necessary).

Anyone who knows me knows I am strongly in favor of progressing through Phases III and IV.  Those are where the REAL leadership lessons are, IMO.  "Career NCOs" aren't doing what the program is designed to do; instead, they're settling where they are comfortable.

However, the reason that not everyone progresses at the "canned" pace of two achievements per year is because not everyone is a "canned" scenario.  College, family, friends, jobs... all these things are all part of the equation.  Not to mention that some cadets plain don't want to be Spaatzen, or don't pack the gear to do so (note: I don't lump Nick in either category).

We should encourage cadets to grow, learn, and make themselves better.  But sometimes, for some people, that requires sticking around in a particular phase of the cadet program for a little longer.

(Full disclosure: I was a C/Lt Col)

[Eclipse]

Bob, you still haven't addressed the college situation. 

I think I did, but again you are the exception, probably deserving of some discretion.

The issue I am trying to put forth is that progression requirements are one of the few things left that make the CP unique over watered-down programs like the BSA. I was a Boy Scout - 2 merit badges got you First Class, which meant you could be a Patrol Leader and Leadership Corps, which meant you ate with the adult leaders and could push the new scouts around like you owned the joint.  Eagles were applauded, but stagnant scouts weren't pushed.

Its why CAP is more than a social organization.  we offer unique opportunities and experiences, but payment for those is supposed to be participation in the whole program.  Its not supposed to be ala carte.

For every cadet you show me with a unique situation that requires discretion, I'll show you
5 that are just blowing off the program and no one is even making an issue of it, let alone
considering termination.

If pure numeric retention is the goal, and membership for nostalgia is the reason for cadets to stay on during disconnected years, then move those cadets off the unit to the state's inactive squadron, and relieve the administrative burden from the previous unit.  Then the Wing King can decide whether to bounce them for non-progression

Too often we people treat CAP as a restaurant - wander in when you feel like it, order something that looks good that day, and then blow off paying the check.   What value do you offer the organization when you are a transient "twice-a-year" member? Yet the "regulars" are supposed to
keep the light burning on the porch for when the "TAY's" decided that the meeting was more important than a Sopranos rerun.

The active components, and civilian employers would not stand for that kind of behavior, and neither should we. 

Then we wonder why our retention is down, readiness doesn't match our rosters, and the organization as a whole seems stuck in the mud, and "not like the old days".

[Eclipse]

We should encourage cadets to grow, learn, and make themselves better.  But sometimes, for some people, that requires sticking around in a particular phase of the cadet program for a little longer.

I can't disagree with that, but at a minimum the issue should be in front of everyone from day zero.  As has been noted here, many cadets and seniors, even commanders, don't even know about the requirement.

If requirement is too strong a word, perhaps importance or possibility is better.

Bottom line, there aren't too many things detailed in the regs to get you 2b'ed, yet NHQ thinks progression is important enough to be specific abut it.

[dwb]

If I were to conjecture, I would say that language is in the regulation to help squadrons justify getting rid of cadets who have a multitude of issues, and also who chronically do not promote (i.e., nothing but trouble, been in for six years and put on two stripes).

I don't think it is NHQ's intent to literally shove out all non-progressing cadets.  At the least, we'd probably lose most of our college-attending cadets.

This is one of those instances where the letter of the regulation needs to be balanced with intent and real world circumstances.

[MIKE]

We should encourage cadets to grow, learn, and make themselves better.  But sometimes, for some people, that requires sticking around in a particular phase of the cadet program for a little longer.

I agree... IMO the Cadet Program is not a race... Promotions are only one element and they are a privilege of those cadets who have clearly demonstrated that are ready to assume responsibilities commensurate with that promotion... They are not a right.  Cadets who complete the requirements for an achievement or award are not automatically entitled to promotion, nor are cadets necessarily required to complete at least two achievements per year or face termination of membership.

[shorning]

Simply amazing.  "May" and "will" are very different.

I wonder how many commanders have the sack to hold seniors to similar promotion standards.  If we're telling cadets that they "owe" it to the program, I should think the same would apply to seniors.  Lets say double the TIG requirement?  Is that sufficient?    When do we start terminating the 30+ year 2nd Lts? 

[Nathan]

Okay, I'm going to throw an opinion in here... again.

Nick, no one is denying that you've done a lot in CAP. I applaud how much you've done, and I look forward to a possibility of meeting you at GSAR this year. You have done a lot in CAP.

However, the cadet oath is just that: the CADET oath. It's designed for the CADET program. We as cadets take the cadet oath, which applies to the cadet program, while seniors sign whatever they sign.

When that oath was being written, it was written only to be taken by people participating in one single aspect of the three missions: The cadet program. When you became a cadet, you promised to advance your training and progress. Now, you wouldn't have had to say that oath at all if you weren't participating in the cadet program, which leaves us with an easy conclusion. That oath applies to the cadet program, being that it's the cadet oath, and the ES and Aerospace missions are other completely different missions that (to my knowledge) there is no oath requirement, or at least not one you have your name signed under, like the cadet oath.

Now, following this logic, you have signed an oath that promises you will progress through the cadet program. You have clearly not done that. Your mission, as a cadet, is to progress through the cadet program, and the ES and AE missions come second to that. You didn't sign a contract with those missions. You signed a contract with the cadet program.

No one is saying you should completely leave the ES program, either. However, priorities within CAP should be placed on you working through the cadet program (the one you took the oath for), not working your way through the ES program. Being a C/Maj for two years is far too long, and that would constitute a progressive failing of that mission.

If you wanted to go full on ES, then quit the cadet program. There's no reason for you to be in it anyway if you're simply going to be working on ES all the time. But while you are a cadet, you have taken an oath to progress through that program, so while you're wearing the cadet insignia, you have an obligation through contract to fulfill THAT mission, not any side missions that you WANTED to perform.

JMHO

[Horn229]

Please, save the indignant attitude. We all have life issues, and none of the challenges with your father were brought up until this minute.

Right, because I shouldn't have had to. You're previous posts were implying that I should have had getting 3 diamonds my end goal. I disagreed, then you say that what I've done for the last two years was "easy". You need to understand that there are personal situations that arise in everyones lives, and what is the end goal of a cadet career for me may not be what it was for you.

Unless he was ill for an extended period, it doesn't speak to the issues of your 2 years as a 2nd Lt, which is likely where your problems started.

The two years as a C/2d Lt, I spent learning how to a true leader, and a mentor. I was the Admin officer for my squadron, and revamped the entire files, then went to wing and started in on the same thing, and getting regs up to date. I advanced my ES training, and I taught new cadets GT. Just because I didn't get another pip on my collar doesn't mean I wasn't learning.

I spent a good portion of my time as an NCO favoring the Authoritarian style, then once I became an Officer, I had to relearn what leadership really was.

You also can't make the argument that the exception makes the rule, which should be a ribbon
in CAP, because many members, senior and cadet, think policy should be based on exceptions.

Commander's discretion is designed for your situation, but the proper atmosphere of positive pressure from the start would have not left you in the position you were in when time started getting tight for you. More push as a 2nd Lt might have you at Spaatz now.

More push as a C/2d Lt, and I would have been a very immature C/Capt, and an unfit C/Col. I've spent a good amount of time sitting and learning, and when I've felt that I was ready to move on, I have. It's not just about the numbers, it's about learning and developing people into leaders.

Which is another of the reasons the CP pushes progression.  NHQ realizes that the older you get, the more divided your time becomes, making it even harder to stay engaged.

Beyond that you are making my argument for me.  When your unit CC approved your participation in JFE and GSAR, he should have been looking at your current state in the program and discussed if these "extracurricular" activities were where you should be spending your time.  That's one of the reasons we are supposed to sign off on these - to be part of the process in deciding whether a respective activity is a good fit. (Though many CC's never even look at the forms, which defeats the purpose).

So what you're saying is because I've taken my time in getting promoted, that I'm an unfit candidate to attend activities?

I can't tell you how any conversations I have had with Unit CC's who have sent cadets, who for one reason or another should have never gotten their blessing to attend ILWG Spring.  When I
bring it to their attention that the Unit CC is there to guide the career of a cadet, many are shocked at the concept.

But that is our job, to make sure you can engage in the program at a level that fits both the requirements, your abilities, and your current state of life.  And when that fit becomes out of balance it is time for a change. Whether that means a hiatus, adjustment of activities, a transfer or a 2b depends on the situation.

So again, are you trying to imply that because I've chosen to not be aggressive in getting promoted, that I'm not fitting in with the cadet program?

As for the 2b stuff. If you really think that I'm going to be 2b'd for not promoting, think again. This organization is still losing members. There is a serious retention issue in CAP, and I doubt they're going to get it fixed it by kicking out the people who have actually stuck around, simply because they haven't gotten a certain number of promotions.

[Eclipse]

Simply amazing.  "May" and "will" are very different.

I wonder how many commanders have the sack to hold seniors to similar promotion standards.  If we're telling cadets that they "owe" it to the program, I should think the same would apply to seniors.  Lets say double the TIG requirement?  Is that sufficient?    When do we start terminating the 30+ year 2nd Lts? 

When that verbiage is written into the Senior Program regs, until then it’s a good idea which is not related to this conversation.

[Horn229]

Okay, I'm going to throw an opinion in here... again.

Nick, no one is denying that you've done a lot in CAP. I applaud how much you've done, and I look forward to a possibility of meeting you at GSAR this year. You have done a lot in CAP.

However, the cadet oath is just that: the CADET oath. It's designed for the CADET program. We as cadets take the cadet oath, which applies to the cadet program, while seniors sign whatever they sign.

When that oath was being written, it was written only to be taken by people participating in one single aspect of the three missions: The cadet program. When you became a cadet, you promised to advance your training and progress. Now, you wouldn't have had to say that oath at all if you weren't participating in the cadet program, which leaves us with an easy conclusion. That oath applies to the cadet program, being that it's the cadet oath, and the ES and Aerospace missions are other completely different missions that (to my knowledge) there is no oath requirement, or at least not one you have your name signed under, like the cadet oath.

Now, following this logic, you have signed an oath that promises you will progress through the cadet program. You have clearly not done that. Your mission, as a cadet, is to progress through the cadet program, and the ES and AE missions come second to that. You didn't sign a contract with those missions. You signed a contract with the cadet program.

No one is saying you should completely leave the ES program, either. However, priorities within CAP should be placed on you working through the cadet program (the one you took the oath for), not working your way through the ES program. Being a C/Maj for two years is far too long, and that would constitute a progressive failing of that mission.

If you wanted to go full on ES, then quit the cadet program. There's no reason for you to be in it anyway if you're simply going to be working on ES all the time. But while you are a cadet, you have taken an oath to progress through that program, so while you're wearing the cadet insignia, you have an obligation through contract to fulfill THAT mission, not any side missions that you WANTED to perform.

JMHO

Wrong. I did not sign an oath that said I would Progress through the ranks. I signed an oath that says "I will advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation". Nowhere is there is there any hint at promoting. I have been following that oath, and I intend to keep following it. But there is a big difference from advancing my education and training, and speeding through the ranks.

Oh and ya, I look forward to meeting you as well. We should be having some fun filled debates this year. 

[shorning]

When that verbiage is written into the Senior Program regs, until then it's a good idea which is not related to this conversation.

Sure it does.  It fits the entire concept of what your arguing.

[Nathan]

Oh and ya, I look forward to meeting you as well. We should be having some fun filled debates this year.  

Which is why I'm working very hard not to come off as an ass here. I just disagree with you, so let's keep it at that, huh?

Wrong. I did not sign an oath that said I would Progress through the ranks. I signed an oath that says "I will advance my education and training rapidly to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state and nation". Nowhere is there is there any hint at promoting. I have been following that oath, and I intend to keep following it. But there is a big difference from advancing my education and training, and speeding through the ranks.

First off, if you had to say that oath for any other branch besides the cadet program, then I would be agreeing with you 100%. But because only the cadet program requires that oath, then it would be implied that the education and training would apply to the cadet program, NOT the ES program. The ES program is a completely different mission which requires no such oath. You can't take something that is exclusive to one program and apply it to everything else. Technically, I would be able to take that oath (under your logic) and say that it applies to going on a mission trip, or going into the military. While it makes a convenient argument, neither a mission trip nor the military have anything to do with the cadet program, and no such oath is required outside of the cadet program.

Because it is the cadet oath, then you are stating your mission as a cadet; not as a GTM, not as a missionary, and not as a soldier. Because you are stating your mission as a cadet, then it would make sense for what is going on in the oath to apply to the program itself. I mean, everything else in the entire oath applies solely to the cadet program; why are you trying to apply the very last sentence to justify your position?

I completely don't want nor endorse ANYONE speeding through the ranks. I've seen the effects of that first-hand. But I don't think that anyone should simply *stop*. That is detrimental, and why we ARE allowed to 2b for stagnation.

[Eclipse]

The two years as a C/2d Lt, I spent learning how to a true leader, and a mentor. I was the Admin officer for my squadron, and revamped the entire files, then went to wing and started in on the same thing, and getting regs up to date. I advanced my ES training, and I taught new cadets GT. Just because I didn't get another pip on my collar doesn't mean I wasn't learning.

Exactly my point, your Unit CC and Wing CC allowed their needs to come before yours.
Whether you enjoyed the work, it was meaningful, and even necessary, is besides the point.  If we give them the choice, cadets would rather do a lot of things other than study and progress.  Same with regular school.  I doubt your teachers would have allowed you to take a job as an admin assistant in school and stay in 6th grade for two years.  The program is the program.

And Nathan makes a good point.  Why don't you just convert to senior and contribute any way you want?  Probably a big reason is that you couldn't attend some of the cadet activities on the same level - I hear that a lot.  So you stay as a cadet, and attend GSAR, or whatever, in that capacity.  Less responsibility, more time for fun. 

Forgetting that, just as the senior program has Loco Parentis and other nightmare responsibilities, the CP has the Oath of progression. 

Which brings me back to my original premise. You, like a lot a cadets, work towards Captain, get the click to Major, then spend the rest of the time doing cool stuff and
waiting to clock out.  Your singular excuse right now is that you can't figure out how to order AFIDL 13.  I would present that in the time you spent making excuses in this thread, you could have made a phone call to NHQ, or your TCO and had the test on the way.

[Eclipse]

When that verbiage is written into the Senior Program regs, until then it’s a good idea which is not related to this conversation.

Sure it does.  It fits the entire concept of what your arguing.

No, it doesn't.  We are discussing an EXISTING regulation, and whether it should be enforced.  You are trying to muddy it with a side discussion as to whether the same standards should apply to the Senior program.  I think they should, but if you want to discuss that, start a new thread.

There is also the point that the goals and mission of the cadet program is different from the senior program, which means the arguments are different.

[Horn229]

The two years as a C/2d Lt, I spent learning how to a true leader, and a mentor. I was the Admin officer for my squadron, and revamped the entire files, then went to wing and started in on the same thing, and getting regs up to date. I advanced my ES training, and I taught new cadets GT. Just because I didn't get another pip on my collar doesn't mean I wasn't learning.

Exactly my point, your Unit CC and Wing CC allowed their needs to come before yours.
Whether you enjoyed the work, it was meaningful, and even necessary, is besides the point.  If we give them the choice, cadets would rather do a lot of things other than study and progress.  Same with regular school.  I doubt your teachers would have allowed you to take a job as an admin assistant in school and stay in 6th grade for two years.  The program is the program.

Dude, it was good experience for me. I learned a lot when I did the job. Ain't that the point of the cadet program, to learn?

And Nathan makes a good point.  Why don't you just convert to senior and contribute any way you want?  Probably a big reason is that you couldn't attend some of the cadet activities on the same level - I hear that a lot.  So you stay as a cadet, and attend GSAR, or whatever in that capacity.  Less responsibility, more time for fun.

Because I enjoy being a cadet. I'm the cadet mentor in my squadron, I'm the wing CAC chair, and I'm on encampment staff doing SET. Just because I haven't promoted and really enjoy ES doesn't mean I'm not an active participant in the CP.

Forgetting that, just as the senior program has Loco Parentis and other nightmare responsibilities, the CP has the Oath of progression.

Ok, since you keep bringing this oath of progression up, would you please show me where is says that?

Which brings me back to my original premise. You, like a lot a cadets, work towards Captain, get the click to Major, then spend the rest of the time doing cool stuff and
waiting to clock out.  Your singular excuse right now is that you can't figure out how to order AFIDL 13.  I would present that in the time you spent making excuses in this thread, you could have made a phone cal to NHQ, or your TCO and had the test on the way.

Actually, I just got a PM on here last night with instructions on how to order the test. I'll most likely get that ordered before the end of the week.

But ya, here's one more reason for my not switching over right now. The respect issue. I get a lot of respect as a Cadet, I've seen senior member but more faith into senior cadets, than they do the Flight Officers. Flight Officers are treated like cadets by the senior members, and the cadets still act all buddy buddy. It's a lose-lose situation for a cadet to switch over. The only time I've seen FO's get any respect is when they enlisted, and are in the military.

Even this past saturday at our GTE, the CMSgt that was evaluating me (the GBD) pointed out that a lot of the senior members seem to have a lot of respect for and trust me. Why throw that, and the fun I have as a Cadet away? So I can have the title of senior member? No thanks, they'll have to drag me over to the dark side kicking and screaming the whole way down.

[Eclipse]

I'm the cadet mentor in my squadron, I'm the wing CAC chair,

BAMM!  Making my point for me again.  Whether you like it or not, you are setting the bar as "Major is good enough..."

[shorning]

You are trying to muddy it with a side discussion as to whether the same standards should apply to the Senior program. 

Nope, just trying to point out that you're out in left field...again.

[Horn229]

I'm the cadet mentor in my squadron, I'm the wing CAC chair,

BAMM!  Making my point for me again.  Whether you like it or not, you are setting the bar as "Major is good enough..."

Eh, not really. We are a small wing. About 55-60 active cadet total. Out of these 60 active cadets, there are 2 active spaatz cadets, and 2 more C/Lt Col's.  I'm not the end all, be all of role modelism. I've chosen to do a lot of things in CAP, other haven't done as much as I, therefore having more time to promote. So, you're still not winning me over. Oh, and you still haven't shown wear it says I signed an oath to progress.

[Nathan]

The cadet oath is present when you first sign up on the form. You sign right under it.

You might have missed my other post... scroll up, I've readdressed what I said earlier.

[shorning]

The cadet oath is present when you first sign up on the form. You sign right under it.

Yep right here:

I hereby make application for cadet membership in Civil Air Patrol. I pledge that I will serve faithfully in the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program and that I will attend meetings regularly, participate actively in unit activities, obey my officers, wear my uniform properly, and advance my education and training rapidly[/i] to prepare myself to be of service to my community, state, and nation.

Emphasis mine.

"Education and training".  Doesn't say anything about promotions.  There are broad possibilities as to how one can advance their education and training without necessarily promoting.  even though he makes it sound like he'd automatically 2b ca cadet for not promoting, even Bob has said it would depend on the situation.

[Nathan]

You're right. It does not specifically mention the word "promotion." :clap:

However, you did point out that it mentions, "Education and training." Which is all I really need.

Come now, how do you think cadets train and educate? Let's take SDA's, for example. Sure, if I wanted to, I could do SDA's as a C/MSgt if I wanted to. But few C/MSgts are willing to do them voluntarily (few C/Officers are willing to do them involuntarily...), and few SM's would be willing to grade them if they don't mean anything.

Point is, being that we hate the process of an SDA aside, few people deny that they are not educational and that we don't learn from them if we put something of an effort into it. But you can only do those as an officer.

The big picture is that the ranks are not there just for fun. They're there to set a level of education and training that we had not previously been proven ready for. A C/Amn will never be put in as the C/CC of NBB, and a C/Capt has a slim chance of making C/XO of COS. They simply haven't experienced as much of the training as CAP wants us to.

By stagnating at a single rank, a cadet is depriving him or herself of the ability to ADVANCE the education and training to a new level; they are simply staying at the same level for a long time, and never advance any higher than that. Sure, there is a LOT you can do as a C/Maj. I can name off many things. You can be C/CC of the squadron, you can be on almost any chair in the CAC, you can be the C/CC of most of the NCSA's, etc. However, should a cadet wait around at a certain rank until he or she has held every single position at an encampment, gone to every single NCSA possible, etc? That's crazy talk.

Then should the ES program have any effect on a cadet's progression? No. The ES program has nothing to do with the cadet program. While it is a noble mission, it does not fall under the "education and training" referred to in the cadet oath (due to it being the cadet oath of the cadet program). Therefore, while it was a good mission, it should not be overcome by the priority of the cadet to the cadet mission.

As I stated earlier, if interest in completing the cadet program's mission has waned, then drop the cadet status so you can truly work 100% on SAR.

[Horn229]

As I stated earlier, if interest in completing the cadet program's mission has waned, then drop the cadet status so you can truly work 100% on SAR.

You're welcome to that opinion. But as I already stated in one of my other posts, I am active in the cadet program. I'm active in my squadron, CAC, wing activities, encampments and NCSA's. Just because I don't have the goal to get the spaatz and let everything else fall by the wayside doesn't mean I don't put a lot into/get a lot out of the cadet program.

You know, I think the two of you are being pretty rediculous by this "finish it or get out" mentality. It's actually rather stupid.

[Nathan]

Eh, it's really not a big deal to me one way or the other. I just felt a need to try to flesh out my ideas, since we have a couple of C/2d Lt's who have been so for about three years now. No personal offense intented.

[Hammer]

My goal is to get my Eaker.  A year or so after that, I'll probably become a FO.  Will I run into problems with doing this?

[MIKE]

My goal is to get my Eaker.  A year or so after that, I'll probably become a FO.  Will I run into problems with doing this?

Eaker makes you eligible for TFO if you go SM between 18-21.  Possible hang up would be if you aren't in a leadership or supervisory position with a unit.

33. a. 3) Leadership qualities. Individuals recommended for promotion to flight officer grade must be occupying positions of supervision or leadership within the unit.

[Hammer]

My goal is to get my Eaker.  A year or so after that, I'll probably become a FO.  Will I run into problems with doing this?

Eaker makes you eligible for TFO if you go SM between 18-21.  Possible hang up would be if you aren't in a leadership or supervisory position with a unit.

33. a. 3) Leadership qualities. Individuals recommended for promotion to flight officer grade must be occupying positions of supervision or leadership within the unit.

Cool, thanks, sir.  I didn't know that,.