Drill in PT and Blues?

[Reader5567]

Is there any specific regulation stating that drill cannot be performed while in a PT or Blues uniform?

[Eclipse]

No.   And if you think it through logically, if there were, NCC would be pretty short.

[Reader5567]

No.   And if you think it through logically, if there were, NCC would be pretty short.

Do you have a specific regulation stating that Drill can be performed in any uniform? I am composing an email to my DCC regarding issues in the squadron, and am  attempting to find sources I can cite.

[Eclipse]

Do you have a specific regulation stating that Drill can be performed in any uniform?

No, however you will not find one which prohibits it, either.  I can't imagine why anyone would say otherwise.
Granted there is no "PT uniform", per se, but D&C is a standard part of the CP and has been done in
Class "A" & "B" since John Curry was calling facing movements.

I suppose you could look at the NCC manual for their uniform info.

17 years and you think you've heard it all...

[Reader5567]

Thank you very much, sir. I was recently appointed Flight Commander and intend to fix all the issues in my squadron. (There are several)

[stillamarine]

Drilling in a PT uniform or blues is an issue?? You realize a formation run is a form of drill? Color Guard is a form of drill.


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[NIN]

Drilling in Blues?

The photos in the manual tell all.

Even for double time.

[cnitas]

I once had a Squadron Commander inform me that it was unsafe to drill in the damp grass.  Someone might slip and fall.   We were in BDUs that night.   

[TheSkyHornet]

Curious to know what the issue was here that brought this up...

[Storm Chaser]

Do you have a specific regulation stating that Drill can be performed in any uniform?

No, however you will not find one which prohibits it, either.

I don't disagree with you. In fact, you're 100% correct. But this supports the counterargument that something not explicitly authorized in a regulation is automatically prohibited. In some cases, that is true. But as we can see here, that's not always the case.

[Eclipse]

It does, I understood the contradiction as I typed it.

The issue here is that CAP's regs are such a mess that pretty much anything is possible, interpretations abound, and
even when things "are" they aren't.

There isn't enough, really, to argue that all things authorized are only in the text, and there isn't
enough, really, to say the opposite, but we all know that CAP has never operated in an environment of "that which is not
prohibited is implicitly authorized", either as some would assert.  That would be the civilian world chaos.

Frankly, the question breaks my logic subsystem from both this perspective, and how it's actually a question to start with.

[Holding Pattern]

No.   And if you think it through logically, if there were, NCC would be pretty short.

Do you have a specific regulation stating that Drill can be performed in any uniform? I am composing an email to my DCC regarding issues in the squadron, and am  attempting to find sources I can cite.

AIR FORCE MANUAL 36-2203
20 NOVEMBER 2013

Section 7B—Parade Ceremony
7.3. Definition of a Parade. A parade is a review with honors. A parade is also a ceremony
within itself when respect is paid to the US Flag, as in retreat.
7.4. Suggested Checklist for Commander of Troops.
7.4.1. Establish the time, date, and place.
7.4.2. Determine the type of formation; that is, squadrons in mass or extended mass and
number of squadrons and groups.
7.4.3. Determine the type of ceremony, honors, or decorations.
7.4.4. Select who will perform in command positions and as color guard.
7.4.5. Mark the parade field, including the final line and line of march as shown in Figure
7.1
7.4.6. Make arrangements for the band and public address system. Communicate with flight
line personnel to coordinate flyovers, if desired.
7.4.7. Arrange for and hold practice, if needed.
7.4.8. Announce the uniform for the ceremony.
7.4.9. Arrange for the Colors appropriate to the grade of the reviewing officer

[Holding Pattern]

CAPP 52-4, February 2015

1-9. Uniform Requirements
Uniform requirements may vary year-to-year depending on the host facility's lodging situation. It is
conceivable that cadets will live in field conditions, in which case only BDUs may be required. If
"blues" are listed as the uniform of the day, cadets will wear ribbons, though "short stacks" are
permissible (see CAPM 39-1, 11.1.1.1.2). When participating in drill and ceremonies events, cadets will
wear a white shoulder cord on their left shoulder (if in blues) to recognize their status as members of
a drill team or color guard. Teams may wear a low-cost PT uniform of their choosing during the
appropriate events.

[Tim Day]

Thank you very much, sir. I was recently appointed Flight Commander and intend to fix all the issues in my squadron. (There are several)

I encourage you to start with a conversation with your Cadet Commander, if you have one, or your Deputy Commander for Cadets if you do not. The subject of the conversation should be the issues that he or she would like to fix, in priority order, in your Squadron. This issue may be on the list, if not, ask a question about it.

This way you are showing that you support your chain of command and respect the fact that they are accountable to their chain of command for Squadron issues. That also helps disarm any defensiveness they may have and you may be able to argue for a higher priority on this particular issue - or you may realize that other issues should be fixed first.

When you eventually become the one in command, you'll appreciate subordinate commanders who want to be part of your team and support your priorities. The reason we have one Commander is because sometimes the relative importance of issues are a matter of opinion or perspective, and it helps the team when one person can be the ultimate priority-setter.

Lastly, I think it's excellent that you have a list of issues you'd to fix in your Squadron. Evaluating your team's effectiveness is something that leaders do. The best way to approach that is a subject for life-long learning.

[dwb]

The issue here is that CAP's regs are such a mess that pretty much anything is possible, interpretations abound, and even when things "are" they aren't.

I wonder sometimes whether you and I are in the same CAP.

Besides hand-wavy "it's a mess", can you name some specific areas where the regulatory guidance on allowable/not allowable is unclear? Especially as it pertains to OP's concerns?

Note that not everything allowable under CAP regulations is a good idea. There is no uniform prescribed for basic drill, but I would advise against doing it in stiletto heels. You need sound judgment in addition to the regulatory framework. I think OP can make a compelling argument that any clothing good enough to be the UOD (including PT gear) is appropriate to wear for 15 minutes of drill practice.

[Storm Chaser]

The issue here is that CAP's regs are such a mess that pretty much anything is possible, interpretations abound, and even when things "are" they aren't.

I wonder sometimes whether you and I are in the same CAP.

Besides hand-wavy "it's a mess", can you name some specific areas where the regulatory guidance on allowable/not allowable is unclear?

We have plenty of discussions in CAP Talk that prove Eclipse' point. Otherwise, why would experienced, trained, and intelligent members disagree on many areas covered in CAP regulations?

[NIN]

I wonder sometimes whether you and I are in the same CAP.

Besides hand-wavy "it's a mess", can you name some specific areas where the regulatory guidance on allowable/not allowable is unclear?

We have plenty of discussions in CAP Talk that prove Eclipse' point. Otherwise, why would experienced, trained, and intelligent members disagree on many areas covered in CAP regulations?

"Can you name some specific areas where the regulatory guidance on allowable/not allowable is unclear? Especially as it pertains to OP's concerns?"

Ready? Go!

[Storm Chaser]

I wonder sometimes whether you and I are in the same CAP.

Besides hand-wavy "it's a mess", can you name some specific areas where the regulatory guidance on allowable/not allowable is unclear?

We have plenty of discussions in CAP Talk that prove Eclipse' point. Otherwise, why would experienced, trained, and intelligent members disagree on many areas covered in CAP regulations?

"Can you name some specific areas where the regulatory guidance on allowable/not allowable is unclear? Especially as it pertains to OP's concerns?"

Ready? Go!

Regarding the OP's concerns? No, there's nothing unclear about that. I never said there was. You're welcomed to reread my posts on the matter.

Are there regulatory guidance that may be unclear (at least enough to generate debate and different interpretations)? Absolutely. In fact, a few discussed here in CAP Talk come to mind.

For example, the criteria for the Community Service Ribbon has some believing it applies to community service while a CAP member only, while others believe it can be applied to any community service, regardless of when it happened. Some believe that if the community service is done as part of another organization's requirement then it shouldn't be credited for the ribbon in CAP. Others disagree. Meanwhile, the regulation is too vague on the matter other than stating it requires 60 hours of community service outside of CAP. What constitutes creditable community service is not defined.

Another example is the criteria for the Red Service Ribbon and it's clasps. Some believe it should be active service, while others believe it doesn't matter as long as the member was paying his or her annual dues. Again, the regulation is not clear on the intent of this ribbon. Are we rewarding paying annual dues or active service and contributions to CAP?

The Air SAR, DR, and CD Ribbons also come to mind. We've had discussions about what constitutes a sortie for purposes of these awards. Some believe that each SAR sortie must be at least 4 hours to count, while others believe that any sortie should count even if less than 4 hours and that 4.1 should count for 2 sorties instead of 1. Some believe that a relocation sortie should count as well, while others believe only sorties executing the mission should count.

We just recently had a discussion regarding ICUT. Some of us believe that a member without ICUT may operate a CAP radio under supervision of someone who is qualified. Others believe that this is prohibited other than for the purpose of completing ICUT. We're all reading the same regulation and yet arriving at different conclusions.

I have many more examples, most discussed here in CAP Talk. But I think these illustrate my point.

[Tim Day]

I wonder sometimes whether you and I are in the same CAP.

Besides hand-wavy "it's a mess", can you name some specific areas where the regulatory guidance on allowable/not allowable is unclear?

We have plenty of discussions in CAP Talk that prove Eclipse' point. Otherwise, why would experienced, trained, and intelligent members disagree on many areas covered in CAP regulations?

We just recently had a discussion regarding ICUT. Some of us believe that a member without ICUT may operate a CAP radio under supervision of someone who is qualified. Others believe that this is prohibited other than for the purpose of completing ICUT. We're all reading the same regulation and yet arriving at different conclusions.

I have many more examples, most discussed here in CAP Talk. But I think these illustrate my point.

How would you re-write this:

All members with duties including unsupervised operation of radios on CAP frequencies must complete ICUT training.

to be more clear and prevent people from every possible misinterpretation?

[Holding Pattern]

I wonder sometimes whether you and I are in the same CAP.

Besides hand-wavy "it's a mess", can you name some specific areas where the regulatory guidance on allowable/not allowable is unclear?

We have plenty of discussions in CAP Talk that prove Eclipse' point. Otherwise, why would experienced, trained, and intelligent members disagree on many areas covered in CAP regulations?

We just recently had a discussion regarding ICUT. Some of us believe that a member without ICUT may operate a CAP radio under supervision of someone who is qualified. Others believe that this is prohibited other than for the purpose of completing ICUT. We're all reading the same regulation and yet arriving at different conclusions.

I have many more examples, most discussed here in CAP Talk. But I think these illustrate my point.

How would you re-write this:

All members with duties including unsupervised operation of radios on CAP frequencies must complete ICUT training.

to be more clear and prevent people from every possible misinterpretation?

More specifically:

5.2. Introductory Communications Users Training (ICUT). The initial training for all CAP
personnel using CAP radios is the Introductory Communications User's Training (ICUT).

Some people like to think that they can initially train on SQTRs instead of doing ICUT first.