Cadating

[Johnny Yuma]

^ It's amazing how people can ignore clear rules because they "know better".

The decision making skills of that "gentlemen" clearly indicated he had zero business being a Wing Commander.

Those who knew about it were duty-bound to report it.

Whatever. It wasn't flaunted on CAP time and unless you were among their circle of friends you'd never have known about it, at least until the wedding invites went out. Seems more than a few folks believe that common sense trumps CAP policy, especially off CAP time.

CAP's rules and regs apply when I'm volunteering for CAP. Any other time I could care less. Of all the groups and organizations I volunteer for CAP seems to be the only one who thinks I pay them so they can enact rules that I must abide by in my private life. Granted, they all expect a certain behavior that reflects positively on the group, but telling folks who they can and cannot associate with, even of legal age, based on nothing more than membership status after hours goes well into MYOB territory.

[Eclipse]

^ It's amazing how people can ignore clear rules because they "know better".

The decision making skills of that "gentlemen" clearly indicated he had zero business being a Wing Commander.

Those who knew about it were duty-bound to report it.

Whatever. It wasn't flaunted on CAP time and unless you were among their circle of friends you'd never have known about it, at least until the wedding invites went out. Seems more than a few folks believe that common sense trumps CAP policy, especially off CAP time.

What they believe is irrelevant.  It's not their call to make.

People want the benefit of CAP opportunities, but not the hard choices and sacrifice that might accompany them.

They also want their leaders to be held to a high standard of behavior, then make choices themselves which
break simple rules of trust and character, while still complaining about leadership failures.

Hypocrisy is clearly easier then sincerity.

[Johnny Yuma]

^ It's amazing how people can ignore clear rules because they "know better".

The decision making skills of that "gentlemen" clearly indicated he had zero business being a Wing Commander.

Those who knew about it were duty-bound to report it.

Whatever. It wasn't flaunted on CAP time and unless you were among their circle of friends you'd never have known about it, at least until the wedding invites went out. Seems more than a few folks believe that common sense trumps CAP policy, especially off CAP time.

What they believe is irrelevant.  It's not their call to make.

People want the benefit of CAP opportunities, but not the hard choices and sacrifice that might accompany them.

They also want their leaders to be held to a high standard of behavior, then make choices themselves which
break simple rules of trust and character, while still complaining about leadership failures.

Hypocrisy is clearly easier then sincerity.

CAP opportunities? What's that? I do know I've made sacrifices of time, money and effort and can guaran-effing-tee you that CAP got more from me than I got from them. Everyone i know in CAP, short of the cadets, can say that. So don't give that line of horse crap.

Butting out of people's lives outside of CAP is also easier than enacting regs that demands members snoop around other member's social activities outside CAP in the name of protecting a Federal corporation from lawsuits.

[Eclipse]

CAP opportunities? What's that? I do know I've made sacrifices of time, money and effort and can guaran-effing-tee you that CAP got more from me than I got from them. Everyone i know in CAP, short of the cadets, can say that. So don't give that line of horse crap.

Butting out of people's lives outside of CAP is also easier than enacting regs that demands members snoop around other member's social activities outside CAP in the name of protecting a Federal corporation from lawsuits.

We're literally talking about cadets, who are on the receiving end of the opportunities and also deserving of protection.

Or did you forget that in your haste to espouse?

[LSThiker]

CAP opportunities? What's that? I do know I've made sacrifices of time, money and effort and can guaran-effing-tee you that CAP got more from me than I got from them. Everyone i know in CAP, short of the cadets, can say that. So don't give that line of horse crap.

It is a common phrase that cadets get more out of the organization than they put in it while seniors put in more but less out of it.  The more senior members put in, the more cadets get in return.

but telling folks who they can and cannot associate with, even of legal age, based on nothing more than membership status after hours goes well into MYOB territory.

And yet teachers cannot date students even if they are legally adults.  I have worked for corporations that won't allow managers and employees to have romantic relations.  You agreed to the rules of the organization, if you do not like them, no one is preventing you from leaving.  The dating prohibitions were put into place to protect cadets, a group that because of their membership status, deserves protection. 

[Johnny Yuma]

CAP opportunities? What's that? I do know I've made sacrifices of time, money and effort and can guaran-effing-tee you that CAP got more from me than I got from them. Everyone i know in CAP, short of the cadets, can say that. So don't give that line of horse crap.

It is a common phrase that cadets get more out of the organization than they put in it while seniors put in more but less out of it.  The more senior members put in, the more cadets get in return.

but telling folks who they can and cannot associate with, even of legal age, based on nothing more than membership status after hours goes well into MYOB territory.

And yet teachers cannot date students even if they are legally adults.  I have worked for corporations that won't allow managers and employees to have romantic relations.  You agreed to the rules of the organization, if you do not like them, no one is preventing you from leaving.  The dating prohibitions were put into place to protect cadets, a group that because of their membership status, deserves protection.

RealMilitary commanders are prohibited from dating or having relationships with subordinates for the same reasons, yet a CAP Wing Commander can make a play at the newest 18 year old SMWOG with 3 days in the organization and there's no policy forbidding it. I'm more worried about these relationships than I am the over 18 cadet/senior dating, to be honest.

There is no logical argument anyone can make that can explain how the CPP protects a 19 or 20 year old cadet from a 18 year old TFO or even SMWOG that they are voluntarily involved in a relationship with. The only excuse you can possibly give is "it's policy", which is to surrender your common sense to some lawyers.

[Eclipse]

An 18 year old TFO is an adult both legally and in the eyes of CAP. 

A 20 year old cadet, is not.

[LSThiker]

yet a CAP Wing Commander can make a play at the newest 18 year old SMWOG with 3 days in the organization and there's no policy forbidding it. I'm more worried about these relationships than I am the over 18 cadet/senior dating, to be honest.

And I do not agree with this either. So why do not you propose a new rule to your leadership to amend this problem and ban these as well?  Or would that also be "telling folks who they can and cannot associate with, even of legal age, based on nothing more than membership status after hours goes well into MYOB territory"?

[Storm Chaser]

An 18 year old TFO is an adult both legally and in the eyes of CAP. 

A 20 year old cadet, is not.

Actually, a 20 year old cadet may be considered an adult "in the eyes of CAP", depending on the jurisdiction (cf. CAPR 52-10, Para. 1-2.h). A 20 year old cadet is not, however, an "adult leader" within CAP context.

Age and/or legal status are not the reasons CAP gives for prohibiting senior members from dating cadets. The reason given is stated clearly in CAPR 52-10:

Because adult leaders have intrinsic supervisory authority over cadets, adult leaders will not date or have an intimate romantic relationship with a cadet at any time, regardless of the circumstances.

[Garibaldi]

Quick solution. Stop the cadet program at 18. QED. This will stop a LOT of issues. We'd still have 18 YO FO/TFO/SFO, and raise the age requirement for a Spaatz turning SM to 22. There are no 21 year old Captains anywhere that I know of. Of course, I don't get out much, but still.

I see a lot of problems with this, too. Someone joins at 17 and has 0 time to complete anything worthwhile. I get it. There is no quick solution.

[Ned]

Quick solution.

Before summarily tossing nearly a thousand cadets out of a highly successful program, perhaps you could clearly identify the problem(s) your "solution" would fix.  And explain more clearly how your proposed fix will solve the problem(s) you've identified in some measurable way.

[Eclipse]

Quick solution. Stop the cadet program at 18. QED. This will stop a LOT of issues. We'd still have 18 YO FO/TFO/SFO, and raise the age requirement for a Spaatz turning SM to 22. There are no 21 year old Captains anywhere that I know of. Of course, I don't get out much, but still.

I see a lot of problems with this, too. Someone joins at 17 and has 0 time to complete anything worthwhile. I get it. There is no quick solution.

I am not even clear on your point here.

Joining at 17 a motivated cadet can make Spaatz.

There are have/been plenty of 21 year old Captains.  Most Spaatz cadets get promoted nanoseconds after eligibility.
Around me, most were in college, so their impact day-to-day was negligible, but we've had a couple who were...well..."learning".

[Garibaldi]

Quick solution. Stop the cadet program at 18. QED. This will stop a LOT of issues. We'd still have 18 YO FO/TFO/SFO, and raise the age requirement for a Spaatz turning SM to 22. There are no 21 year old Captains anywhere that I know of. Of course, I don't get out much, but still.

I see a lot of problems with this, too. Someone joins at 17 and has 0 time to complete anything worthwhile. I get it. There is no quick solution.

I am not even clear on your point here.

Joining at 17 a motivated cadet can make Spaatz.

There are have/been plenty of 21 year old Captains.  Most Spaatz cadets get promoted nanoseconds after eligibility.
Around me, most were in college, so their impact day-to-day was negligible, but we've had a couple who were...well..."learning".

Mainly it was a joke. The 21 year old Captain was supposed to be a reference to the Real Military. The second sentence would be a reference to my idea. Joining at 17 with a cutoff of 18 wouldn't work. The fastest they would be able promote would put them at C/Msgt and no further.

[Eclipse]

Mainly it was a joke. The 21 year old Captain was supposed to be a reference to the Real Military. The second sentence would be a reference to my idea. Joining at 17 with a cutoff of 18 wouldn't work. The fastest they would be able promote would put them at C/Msgt and no further.

Ah!  Bach!

I dunno, a good compromise would probably be to move them to some kind of Senior-Lite Member status because they
are legally adults, but still allow them to progress as cadets, perhaps as an option based on attaining Mitchel
before 18 or something similar.

This would open them up to the real-world supervisory and staff roles most could probably handle,
but it has it's own list of challenges as well.

The BSA has the same issue, if you're not in by about 15, you have no chance of making Eagle, but that doesn't
necessarily preclude some from joining just for the experience (though admittedly that's pretty rare).

[Storm Chaser]

I had a cadet that joined shortly after turning 17. Now, at 18, she'll be eligible for the Mitchell Award next month. There are many opportunities in CAP for a motivated, determined young man or woman, even at 17.

[GrimReaper]

Ah!  Bach!

Nice M*A*S*h reference

[BillB]

Eclipse...Your idea of Senior-lite was exactly what CAP used to have under the STP Program. These members wore warrent officer grade insignia and could still progress in the cadet program while working and progressing as senior members. The Flight Officer grade epaulets are a joke with 1,2 or 3 small stripes. Seniors still consider them super-cadets since they don't wear bars.

[Spaceman3750]

In my experience other seniors treat FO's exactly how they act. Act like a senior, get treated like a senior. Act like a cadet, get treated like a cadet.

[Eclipse]

In my experience other seniors treat FO's exactly how they act. Act like a senior, get treated like a senior. Act like a cadet, get treated like a cadet.

This has been my experience as well.