Squadron commander term limit?

Started by cadet zimmerman, January 21, 2011, 11:58:26 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ColonelJack

Quote from: CAPSGT on January 24, 2011, 05:01:46 PM
One thing that struck me about ColonelJack's experience with being so burned out that it was simply easier to retire from the organization altogethor.  By staying in command to that point, it deprives the succossor of the opportunity to have their predecessor around as a sounding board, particularly during their first several months of command.  I know that for me it was invaluable having my predecessor around to bounce ideas off of.

I actually stayed one year longer than I wanted to ... and for another two years after giving up command, I was on group staff -- then I retired.  Sorry for the confusion ... I was available to the man who succeeded me at the squadron any time, but he seldom called on me -- and watched the unit fold under him.  (No dig at him, by the way, rest his soul ... the unit would probably have folded if I had stayed on as CC anyway.)

But you're right about a former CC being available to his successor ... in my opinion (which I value highly), a former CC is a resource that is worth its weight in gold.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

RiverAux

Quote from: CAPSGT on January 24, 2011, 05:01:46 PM
One thing that struck me about ColonelJack's experience with being so burned out that it was simply easier to retire from the organization altogethor. 
Yet another reason that I favor the CG Aux's term limit system for commanders -- My local flotilla has had 5-6 commanders since I've been in it and they are all still very active within the unit.  The CAP squadron has absolutely no former squadron commanders still active in it and there are very few still active former squadron commanders in my wing.  Most leave CAP after their stint in command (a few move up to Wing). 

Term limits keep you from reaching your breaking point. 

Chappie

I am in favor of term limits for some of the reasons cited:
1) allows fresh blood to surface in leadership roles -- after all isn't that why the Professional Development and mentoring programs exist?   Why jump through all the hoops and get all the fancy bling to sit on the sidelines?
2) the burn out factor.

On the chaplain side of the house, Wing and Region chaplains are limited to 6 years in that position.  And frankly, 6 years is enough :)  In that time, the potential is that you get to serve 2 commanders as well as plan/conduct 6 Wing Chaplain Conferences or 6 Region Chaplain Corps Staff Colleges.  I was/am fortunate to have had great staff that shared/s the burn of fulfilling the responsibilities ... and had the opportunity to mentor others to fill the responsibility when the clock ran down to 00:00.  It is a mixed bag in that there are great opportunities for personal growth and also observe the growth in others.  And from personal experience about that 4th year, you hit a wall. 

It is also a different feel to be a "go to" person in the role as being a resource when your term of service is completed.  Kinda fun to be the "old sage" and be available to do other things within the organization.


Disclaimer:  Not to be confused with the other user that goes by "Chappy"   :)

FW

My couple of years as a squadron commander were more than adequate for me.  I would have loved to have a term limit in place.  Unfortunately, no one wanted the job.  I ended up threatening the group commander to appoint someone else as, I needed a break. 

On a related thought; I find it interesting no squadron commander ever asked the MARB to hear an appeal for relief of command.  I think that says something about the job.... ;D

RADIOMAN015

I think it is reasonable for Wing & Group Commanders to be asking the question to their squadron commanders every year IF they would like to stay as a commander for another year or so.  Also perhaps ask the question, IF you needed to leave the position who in your squadron could take the reins ???

Right now in our wing one squadron commander (who I think has been that unit's commander for at least 10 years) just decided to close the unit (a unit over 20 years old) because the other "active" seniors that were assisting him/her transferred to a closer squadron to their homes due partially to the cost just of the commute. The commander became an "army of one".   Long time members have told me that particular unit always had a problem keeping senior members.  So in this particular wing, does the wing staff bear some responsibility for the closure likely because the commander did burn out, but probably was burned out many years ago and the indicator might have been there with very high senior member turnover. :-\   

Also I think that some currently serving (but close to burn out) commanders are concerned that everything they worked to build up the squadron can be destroyed by selection of the "wrong" replacement commander.    I know in another nearby squadron a few years back a 'wrong' selection was made, and many of the senior members just basically took a leave of absence (or transferred to another local unit) UNTIL the commander left, then they came back to that unit again :(   

I don't think we need specific term limits BUT Wing (and where organized, Group) Commanders do need to be having some frank & open discussions with squadron commanders about what they want to do, coupled with an honest review of how the squadron is performing in recruiting/retention, training/advancement, and the various CAP missions accomplishments.  By far not easy for anyone :(
RM

Steve Kuddes

My personal experience as a Wing commander is that you must have term limits.  Without them, you have commander burnout and things get stagnant.  I have also seen numerous Wings experience having a Squadron commander in for so long that when the Wing CC tried to make a change they were informed "this is my Squadron and you can't take it away from me".  Several Squadron commanders have attempted to take the money and equipment they acquired for the squadron because they felt they "own" it because they worked for it.  I have had IG complaints filed against Wing commanders because they removed a Squadron commander on term limits.

How do you give others a chance to be leaders without experiencing being a Squadron commander?

Eclipse

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 27, 2011, 12:12:52 AMRight now in our wing one squadron commander (who I think has been that unit's commander for at least 10 years) just decided to close the unit...

A squadron commander does not "close a unit" - there are some practical realities to the situation, but the ultimate authority on that is the Wing CC.  The
fact that some CC's believe what happens to a unit after they leave is somehow their problem or under their control is part and parcel with the fundamental misunderstanding some people have about their place in CAP.

The next echelon always bears responsibility when a unit collapses, but the majority of the burden of success if on the commander AND HIS PEOPLE.
The failure of a CAP unit is a group effort with plenty of blame to spread around.

Quote from: RADIOMAN015 on January 27, 2011, 12:12:52 AMtransferred to a closer squadron to their homes due partially to the cost just of the commute. The commander became an "army of one".   Long time members have told me that particular unit always had a problem keeping senior members.  So in this particular wing, does the wing staff bear some responsibility for the closure likely because the commander did burn out, but probably was burned out many years ago and the indicator might have been there with very high senior member turnover.

I seriously doubt it, though it is interesting that you were able to find a way to make this about the cost of CAP.  People leave CAP or transfer units because they are not getting whatever it is that they want / expect from the experience.  With the exception of Wing staffers in large states, anyone belonging to a unit where the weekly commute is a financial burden doesn't belong to the right unit to start with, and in a lot of the case can't, or more often won't work with the leadership of the local squadron for typical 6th grade interpersonal issues.

"That Others May Zoom"

CAP Producer

#47
Speaking as a staff officer who has served at Wing, Region and National levels I would strongly encourage unit and group commander term limists for all of the reasons previously stated. This wouls also apply to all staff postions.

I served as a wing PAO for 6 years and was burned out. Moving to region gove me new challenges and when I moved to national those challeges and opprotunites multiplied.

Had I stayed on another year at wing I would have completely burned out and possibly quit all together. Thankfully I spent 2 great years at region where my batteries got recharged for my tour on the National Staff.

And I am having a great time as a member of the National Staff.

I hope to serve 2-3 more years (If the CC lets me) and then find a new CAP job. Any suggestions?  :)
AL PABON, Major, CAP

Eclipse

Quote from: CAP Producer on January 27, 2011, 02:45:35 AM
I hope to serve 2-3 more years (If the CC lets me) and then find a new CAP job. Any suggestions?

You're seriously asking this bunch where you should go?   ;D

"That Others May Zoom"

CAP Producer

AL PABON, Major, CAP

RiverAux

Quote from: CAP Producer on January 27, 2011, 02:45:35 AM
I would strongly encourage unit and group commander term limists for all of the reasons previously stated. This wouls also apply to all staff postions.
I served as a wing PAO for 6 years and was burned out. Moving to region gove me new challenges and when I moved to national those challeges and opprotunites multiplied.
Also a very good idea based on my personal experience as well.

FW

#51
Quote from: Eclipse on January 27, 2011, 02:53:25 AM
Quote from: CAP Producer on January 27, 2011, 02:45:35 AM
I hope to serve 2-3 more years (If the CC lets me) and then find a new CAP job. Any suggestions?

You're seriously asking this bunch where you should go?   ;D

Gee Al, after August 20, you'll get a chance to figure it out... >:D

Quote from: Ben There on January 27, 2011, 12:22:43 AM
How do you give others a chance to be leaders without experiencing being a Squadron commander?

There is always the option of instituting a wing policy creating term limits in a wing. Of course, the next wing/cc can make a change.  Unfortunately, without such a (written) policy, a squadron (or group) commander can only be removed for cause.  And, that cause must be documented.  So, unless a squadron commander wants to leave, your stuck.

Eclipse

Quote from: FW on January 27, 2011, 03:31:57 AMUnfortunately, without such a (written) policy, a squadron (or group commander can only be removed for cause.  And, that cause must be documented.  So, unless a squadron commander wants to leave, your stuck.

Cite Please.

Group and Squadron Commanders serve at the whim and pleasure of the Wing CC, there is no inherent protection or requirement to have "cause" to remove them.

Per 20-1:
Appoint high caliber commanders of subordinate units when replacements are needed and remove unit commanders from positions whenever they are considered unqualified or otherwise unsuitable.

"That Others May Zoom"

FW

Sorry, Eclipse.  CAPR 35-8 allows a MARB appeal for any squadron commander who was removed due to retaliation, failure to follow regulations (in removal) or lack of due process.
Also, as you noted, CAPR 20-1 gives the reasons for removal.  However, these reasons must be documented.  These days, no commander can be removed at the whim of the next higer command.
(except for wing commanders in their probationary year).

Major Carrales

The first time I took command, the time I failed epically, I was told by the Group Commander that the unit would be "folded" and that unless I took command of the squadron I would be responsible for its closure and its member divided among neighboring squadron (the nearest which was over 150 miles away).

I assumed command as 1st Lt Carrales and had great ideas.  We had lost local use of the aircraft and usually I would drive to Corpus Christi from Premont, Texas (70 plus miles) at attend either a "empty meeting" or me "alone" with 12 cadets.  I burnt out of that really fast.

The second time was after two years hiatus...we built up a unit that was dying from three people.  Ended up with a great group of folks that it was a pleasure to serve as the squadron commander.  Now, I am the commander of a cadet unit...building process again.

Command in CAP can be a great experience, but it can also be made a living heck on earth.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

CAP Producer

Quote from: FW on January 27, 2011, 03:31:57 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 27, 2011, 02:53:25 AM
Quote from: CAP Producer on January 27, 2011, 02:45:35 AM
I hope to serve 2-3 more years (If the CC lets me) and then find a new CAP job. Any suggestions?

You're seriously asking this bunch where you should go?   ;D

Gee Al, after August 20, you'll get a chance to figure it out... >:D

I think you are right sir!  :P
AL PABON, Major, CAP

JeffDG

Quote from: Eclipse on January 27, 2011, 03:37:09 AM
Quote from: FW on January 27, 2011, 03:31:57 AMUnfortunately, without such a (written) policy, a squadron (or group commander can only be removed for cause.  And, that cause must be documented.  So, unless a squadron commander wants to leave, your stuck.

Cite Please.

Group and Squadron Commanders serve at the whim and pleasure of the Wing CC, there is no inherent protection or requirement to have "cause" to remove them.

Per 20-1:
Appoint high caliber commanders of subordinate units when replacements are needed and remove unit commanders from positions whenever they are considered unqualified or otherwise unsuitable.[/b]

You actually provided your own citation for his statement.

That right there is a working definition of "cause".  Squadron CCs cannot be relieved on a whim, there needs to be a reason.

Eclipse

This is the standard as defined by the regs:

"...whenever they are considered unqualified or otherwise unsuitable..."

and you guys seriously think this isn't the definition of "whim"?  Like all things in CAP, there is plenty of room for people to do things in a way which
allows for a sustainable IG complaint, but the above is so subjective that unless you can prove you the "retaliation or discrimination angle", you're not
going to be a Commander if you aren't on the page of the next higher HQ.

The other question, more important, is "Why would you want to be?"  Being a commander these days is hard enough, why would you want to do it
when you are constantly fighting with the next HQ and always looking over your shoulder?

"That Others May Zoom"

ColonelJack

Quote from: Eclipse on January 27, 2011, 03:44:16 PM
The other question, more important, is "Why would you want to be?"  Being a commander these days is hard enough, why would you want to do it
when you are constantly fighting with the next HQ and always looking over your shoulder?

"It's a dirty, rotten, stinking job, but somebody's gotta do it...."

And there are people out there who are just gluttons for punishment.

;)

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

FW

Quote from: Eclipse on January 27, 2011, 03:44:16 PM
and you guys seriously think this isn't the definition of "whim"?  Like all things in CAP, there is plenty of room for people to do things in a way which
allows for a sustainable IG complaint, but the above is so subjective that unless you can prove you the "retaliation or discrimination angle", you're not
going to be a Commander if you aren't on the page of the next higher HQ.


Like I said; no one (yet) has ever bothered to argue about being removed from squadron command to the MARB.  Probably, because of the reason you mentioned, it is unlikely it will happen.
Though, if it did, I would hope the next higher commander documented the reasons for the "victim" becoming "unqualified or otherwise unsuitable". 

And, no, I don't think that is the definition of "whim".  It is the reason why you should remove an ineffective squadron (or group) commander.  And, the MARB gives considerable leeway to the commander responsible for relief.  The key is documentation. 

But, hey, what do I know....  ;D