Whats Wrong with this Uniform?

[FlexCoder]

Point Taken especially since this has turned into a debate rather than a helpful topic....I agree with you SARDRAGON!

[PhoenixRisen]

I think threads like this aren't kosher with the mods.  Regardless...  Where's my puking icon?  CAWG nonetheless...   

[stratoflyer]

Oh boy. Here we go again. Who took this pic?

[FlexCoder]

How can we ever fix the problems if we can't address them?  This isn't communist Russia.

[SarDragon]

True, it isn't communist Russia.

Historically, these threads turn into mega-bashing sessions between two polarized groups of posters, and eventually totally degenerate into a massive urinating competition.

[FlexCoder]

Other military forums have these topics and they aren't a problem if they are moderated properly.  However, it is best to sugarcoat CAP since we are a myth to most in the public eye anyway. 

[SarDragon]

I'm not encouraging sugar coating anything. I'm telling you the reality of our forum. 18% of the 120 most recent uniform threads have gotten locked for one reason or another. I'd guess that uniforms are both the most talked about and the most locked topic on CT. The same goes for CadetStuff, too.

Moderation only goes so far, and these threads frequently get out of control before a mod has a chance to act. They do have day jobs, you know, and can't monitor 24/7.

I'm sure our mods can provide additional detail when they see this.

[FlexCoder]

SARDRAGON your exactly right, it has evolved into something else besides the topic, I fixed it as a result

[Pylon]

We don't condone posting pictures of other CAP members and picking apart their uniform issues because that equates to publicly criticizing and making accusations against another individual (something in general that's against our Membership Code of Conduct); it's especially inappropriate because in almost all likely scenarios that person isn't even here to defend themselves.

This is a professional discussion forum, and while it's certainly appropriate to talk about common uniform infractions you've seen, problems you've encountered with other members' uniforms, problems you see with enforcing our uniform standards and any number of related topics, it's not professional to post pictures of a person and publicly "call them out on the carpet" for uniform infractions.  We don't hoist individuals in front of the entire unit and loudly announce their uniform problems and then open it up for the rest of the squadron to comment and bicker and so we wouldn't do that here either.

So we stay away from that type of posting.   Hope that answers your question.

[Timbo]

18% of the 120 most recent uniform threads have gotten locked for one reason or another. I'd guess that uniforms are both the most talked about and the most locked topic on CT.

Godwin's Law.

[FlexCoder]

We don't condone posting pictures of other CAP members and picking apart their uniform issues because that equates to publicly criticizing and making accusations against another individual (something in general that's against our Membership Code of Conduct); it's especially inappropriate because in almost all likely scenarios that person isn't even here to defend themselves.

Relax, this wasn't directed towards making members look bad or defamation of character.  I wasn't making accusations towards anyone.   What does the code of conduct have to do with this!  You need to lighten up.  I removed the post.  I did not know the rules of your board.  Now I know, end of story.  It will not happen again.

[N Harmon]

We don't condone posting pictures of other CAP members and picking apart their uniform issues because that equates to publicly criticizing and making accusations against another individual (something in general that's against our Membership Code of Conduct); it's especially inappropriate because in almost all likely scenarios that person isn't even here to defend themselves.

If the photo was edited to protect the individual's identify (ie, blanking out the face and any name tags and other identifying information), would that be acceptable?

[FlexCoder]

If the photo was edited to protect the individual's identify (ie, blanking out the face and any name tags and other identifying information), would that be acceptable?

They were old photos of previous members.  I was asking for solutions with no intention of making fun of the members.    Were all on the same team, CAP.   I understand that something like this could get way out of hand, best to leave it alone.   Initially I did not know that it would cause a problem but definitely do now.   Besides, it's important to help our comrades rather then critique them.  Blanking them out would not be good.   

[cnitas]

Darn it, I missed the original post.  Maybe next time. 

[Major Carrales]

Kudos to civility.  I have seen these threads really cause much behavior described as "unbecoming."  Posting photos with no context, no caption and then whacking a person with less than the full story...not very cricket.

[FlexCoder]

Kudos to civility.  I have seen these threads really cause much behavior described as "unbecoming."  Posting photos with no context, no caption and then whacking a person with less than the full story...not very cricket.

Major Carrales,
That wasn't the case at all in regard to this post.   It was never directed towards members or to defame character.     It was an exercise that I learned from an Air Force course and thought it would be useful.  However, it has gotten way out of hand especially by the one's that don't have a clue of what really transpired.   Ignorance is bliss!   

[Timbo]

Kudos to civility.  I have seen these threads really cause much behavior described as "unbecoming."  Posting photos with no context, no caption and then whacking a person with less than the full story...not very cricket.

Major Carrales,
That wasn't the case at all in regard to this post.   It was never directed toward members or to defame character.     It was an exercise that I learned from an Air Force course and thought it would be useful.  However, it has gotten way out of hand especially by the one's that don't have a clue of what really transpired.   Ignorance is bliss!   

Which reminds me, didn't the old SLS have a uniform slide asking "whats wrong with this uniform", and weren't the instructors notes advising to "dress incorrectly and let the students figure out what is wrong".

I also remember a PowerPoint by Ms. Parker where she showed incorrect uniforms and violations at a conference a few years ago.

[SarDragon]

I have done exactly that in classes I've taught. Those classes are a closed environment, not subject to the vagaries of an Internet forum. Frequently the photos are setups, and used with the permission of the subject. "Plants" are there of their own accord.

Such is not the case on our forum. The idea is admirable, but the execution is flawed, for all the reasons stated above.

[Timbo]

^ I will agree with you, but when NHQ places pictures on their website that are terribly wrong, should we not be allowed to discuss that.  As well as all pictures taken in an official CAP capacity.  If I remember right, there was a discussion about who owns the rights to the pictures of individual members.  I think the answer was NHQ.

Is it not better to showcase common mistakes??  It lets us learn from them.

As far as Pylons "the member is not here to defend against the argument", well neither is the National Commander, any of the CAP-USAF folks, or Wing Commanders.  Guess we should cut all discussions regarding NHQ, Wings, Air Force stuff, and pretty much anything!   

[PHall]

If National puts out a picture with a bad uniform it would more "professional" to contact them and make them aware about it so they can fix it.

[Always Ready]

If National puts out a picture with a bad uniform it would more "professional" to contact them and make them aware about it so they can fix it.

That would open up the door for all us uniform nazis to send an e-mail to every SM and Cadet that doesn't wear their uniform properly. How does inundating someone's e-mail account solve anything?

If anyone should be contacted, it should be that member's commander. Isn't it the commander's responsibility to make sure their people are wearing the uniform properly?

Personally, I don't have a problem with people critiquing other people's uniforms as long as it is kept professional. Embarrassing or attacking someone is not the solution. Showing them where to look for guidance (CAPM 39-1 in this case) and in some cases, how to fix the problem, is the solution. If it is a small thing, LET IT GO. If it is a major thing, show everyone the mistake and show EVERYONE how to fix it. Chances are if one person made a mistake, others have/will make the same mistake. Let's try be a part of the solution, not the problem.

[jeders]

As far as Pylons "the member is not here to defend against the argument", well neither is the National Commander, any of the CAP-USAF folks, or Wing Commanders.  Guess we should cut all discussions regarding NHQ, Wings, Air Force stuff, and pretty much anything!   

That's different. At those times we're discussing things that affecy us all. When you post a picture of an incorrect uniform, you're singling out one person and discussing that persons flaws.

[Timbo]

That's different. At those times we're discussing things that affecy us all. When you post a picture of an incorrect uniform, you're singling out one person and discussing that persons flaws.

Not flaws.....just inability to pay attention to detail.  A flaw would be the persons inability to make corrections because they have a terrible attitude when it comes to accepting criticism.

Also, not to drift but I hate how NHQ photoshops pictures.  If the member is not in correct uniform, shouldn't they find a different picture to use, and let the member know they need to reread a certain regulation. 

[Pylon]

Is it not better to showcase common mistakes??  It lets us learn from them.

You can talk about common mistakes so that others can learn from it without needing to post pictures.  If you absolutely need to show pictures, you can always post pictures of that mistake and/or the proper way as shown on your own uniform if you'd like -- much like the aforementioned example of the instructors at SLS or CLC.   Posting up some unsuspecting CAP member's photo and using it as an example of what not to do is inappropriate.

As far as Pylons "the member is not here to defend against the argument", well neither is the National Commander, any of the CAP-USAF folks, or Wing Commanders.  Guess we should cut all discussions regarding NHQ, Wings, Air Force stuff, and pretty much anything!

And we wouldn't allow you to specifically criticize the National Commander or other people as an individual either.  "I don't agree with the latest policy and here's why..." is a lot different than "General Smith is useless!"    Can you tell the difference?  We can.

You may not have been here, but when the Tony Pineda issue was fresh a lot of posts were deleted; the subject itself could be discussed as it was a public matter.  But the minute someone says "That guy is a bozo" the discussion crosses the line from being a professional discussion of a current event to an unprofessional comment about an individual's character.  That may not be the popular thing to do, that may not be what you all want.  It doesn't matter.  Our site, our rules; how we define professional and appropriate is where the bar gets set.

[SM-MADDOG]

I do agree that We must all know how to wear each of the uniforms properly. However I think CAPin general can also take some of this blame. They sometimes dont give enough if any training on proper wear of the uniform, plus they have so many different uniforms sets that You must attend a college course to learn how to wear them (that was a joke).

However My mom was reading an article in  a magazine where the regular Air Force members were complaining about ow the Air Force has way too many uniforms and uniform regulations. I have said from day one that CAP in general needs to stick to uniforms it has now or wants and keep them for a while, and I dont mean for 2 months I mean for 2 or more years.

I dont like all the changes CAP makes on uniforms. For example they made the U.S. Civil Air Patrol tape, they said by what 09 or 010 that We will have to change to that. I had bought My first set of BDU's so I went ahead and bought the US CAP tape. Then 3 to 4 weeks later CAP comes out and says oh We changed our mind on the US CAP tape. If We were getting out uniforms and equipment provided to us by CAP I wouldnt care what changes they made, but We buy our uniforms and I feel that making too many changes, and making a change then 2 months later say never mind is crazy. I've heard allot of members say the same thing, My entire squadron has said this.

I like the AF Blues, the Senior Officer Uniform White Shirt, AF Blue Pants, and the grey is okay also. I think they should either stick with AF Blue Pants or the grey. I like the AF Blue better than the Grey my self. I have both uniform sets. I have the polo shirt, SR Ofc uniform white shirt AF blue pants/grey also, I have the Blue BDU, and I have that new felece CAP jacket vanguard has for sale now. For uniform CAP's, I have the AF flight cap, The Blue BDU cap, and I have an AF Ball CAP style hat.

Also incase some of You dont know that CAP Polo shirt that sells on vanguard they now have a long sleeve polo shirt. Also the new flece jackets they have a hooded shirt to. Plenty of stuff for us to spend our money on lol.

[Hawk200]

However My mom was reading an article in  a magazine where the regular Air Force members were complaining about ow the Air Force has way too many uniforms and uniform regulations.

I'd love to see that article, because I find it hard to believe. The Air Force has typically had the fewest uniforms, and there has only ever been one uniform reg. There are local supplements to regs, but you can never go wrong by complying with the basic uniform publication.