What provides authorization to wear miitary insignia?

[Eclipse]

An offshoot of another thread:  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=6177.0;topicseen

CAP, NSCC, Young Marines, ACA, CG/Aux, etc., get their authorization to wear military uniforms and insignia from direct connections with a "parent" service, congressional charter, or something similar.

What's required when "somebody", such as HWSRN, decides to start a paramilitary organization that wears
similar or identical uniforms and insignia to be able to avoid problems with Stolen Valor, Title 10,  or other related laws?

Simply filing a 501c(3) app can't be enough, if it was, a lot of PTA's and little league boosters could wear ACU's with grade to denote bake sale proficiency.

Is this a matter of "just do it" (until you're caught?).

[RiverAux]

Yep. 

I suppose they could try to get permission, but doubt any do. 

[DNall]

^ kind of yeah, unfortunately. The FBI has more important things to do. When it's a fake seal or something, the community usually sorts it out with all the details & confronts the person to stop the behavior & disassociate with honorable uniformed orgs or face legal action.

For federally chartered formally mil linked type orgs like CAP & CGAux, it is based in federal law.

For other orgs like NSCC, it's a lot harder to say. They're working on that relationship with congress as we know, but it isn't there formally yet.

I guess they take it from the fact that mil decs can be worn by veterans on civilian attire under certain circumstances.

Wearing things you are not authorized, be it a while uniform with officer grade or a little ribbon, is a violation of federal law. There's actually a couple three overlapping laws that cover the spectrum of circumstances. I just know it's illegal. You'd need a specialized lawyer for exact details.

[Eclipse]

The Sea Cadets were founded by the Navy League at the request of the Navy and Chartered under Title 36, so there certainly is a historical lineage to fall back on - the biggest difference between it and similar orgs is that it is focused on training young people and has no operational role.

I just personally can't fathom the hubris of someone who self-promotes to wearing stars.  I can understand wearing
a grade commensurate with current or previous military service, or something home-grown, and the ribbons, well
if you earned them, you earned them, so whatever.

The ACU itself is just a shirt, and we all know you can find plenty of choices for nametape colors, but to appoint yourself
a general of a handful of guys, with no history, lineage, or credibility of any kind, just so you can be the big cheese on campus seems like...well I don't know what its like. 

Being and calling yourself the "commander" ought to be enough if you're actually doing anything.

[DNall]

The Sea Cadets were founded by the Navy League at the request of the Navy and Chartered under Title 36, so there certainly is a historical lineage to fall back on - the biggest difference between it and similar orgs is that it is focused on training young people and has no operational role.

Right, but it's not the operational role that matters, it's the formal relationship. Under no circumstances is NSCC an instrumentality of the US govt. CG Aux & CAP are (in Aux status) formally part of their parent military service (granted an unpaid civilian part, but still part). While NSCC has a strong ties & support of the Navy, they are no more part of it than the boy scouts.

Hence, it's not a military uniform if it's in any way different (usually by attaching their org patch on one shoulder, or dif name on the branch tape). Otherwise, they are free to use subdued colors, etc w/o getting permission from the mil.

The issue comes up when they attach mil stuff. There are some serious legal limitations to doing that. If it's legit earned by a vet, then there are some guidelines for wear on civilian attire. If you can extend that to org uniforms or not I'm not enough legal expert to say. If it's not earned, then obviously that's a crime.

[NIN]

IIRC (*and BG Tornow, the National Commander of the USAC, is -well- versed in this.. far more than I am, so take it for what its worth*), its Title 10 that delineates that military uniforms worn for the purposes of auxiliaries, etc, must be worn with a "distinctive mark" (ie. a patch, badge, some clear delineation that the uniform is that of a non-military, not military, organization).

In the USAC's case, we've got some lineage dating back to 1909 for the Naval & Marine wear, and 2000 for the Army brigade.  Each uniform is construed with distinctive insignia that sets it apart from the military service.  (for example, our collar brass on dress uniforms is "A.C.A." not "U.S.", our shoulder sleeve insignia clearly says "United States Army Cadet Corps", our "distinctive identification badge" is worn on the pocket, and our nametags say "U.S. Army Cadet Corps" under the name.  Each of these things is not found on a standard US uniform.  (then you have some distinctive badges, ribbons, etc, which aren't all that obvious at first glance)

The really interesting thing is that all up and down the chain of command, from the civilian leadership of the Army (in the form of Secretary Geren and the various under-secretaries) to the military leadership (including General Casey, and General Rochelle, the Army G-1, the guy who gets to control the Army's uniform), we've had endless meetings and other functions where we're in very close contact with these folks and not a soul has said "Hey, you shouldn't be wearing that!"  (I did have an O-6 last year who was kind of in his cups give me a hard time about my insignia. I was wearing "U.S." on my Class As as part of the wear test and he swore up and down that you could only wear U.S. if you were "federally commissioned."  He pointed to the "V.A." worn by the folks at VMI, but I reminded him that those folks are "Virginia Militia" or something and that the National Guard, the US Army Reserve, and even the Civil Air Patrol wear "U.S." on their collars, so its not exclusively the province of federal anything.  He backed off his position pretty quickly when he realized that he might have overstated his case..<GRIN>)

[lordmonar]

Bottom line is...no one is going to do anything about HWSRN or any other paramiliatry organisation until/unless they start to tryo to pass themselves off as real members of the military.

For the ranks insigina....we have way too much precidence of other non-fedreal militray organisations using it.

Just look at how many police departments we would have to procecute beforew we can start looking at HWSRN's orgnanisation.

As for the law...CAP is covered under Title 10, Subtitle A, Part II, Chapter 45, Section 772 (J).

A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category:
        (1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America.
        (2) Members of any other organization designated by the  Secretary of a military department.

[ol'fido]

Doesn't the stolen valor law just cover decorations for valor? I've read desriptions of the law but can't recall exactly what it covered. I know I've read that the feds will send you a nasty gram for most violations unless you are going around claiming a MoH. Then they might pay you a visit and confiscate the medal. It's also illegal to sell decorations for valor(BS, SS,DSC,NC,AFC, MoH, PH). The  best defense against these guys is outing them to whoever they're trying to scam, confronting them, and making sure that everybody knows about them.

[RiverAux]

There is a separate federal law prohibiting the wear of military uniforms unless authorized.  Incidentally, you could be prosecuted for wearing a CAP uniform without authorization as the uniforms of service auxiliaries receive the same protection as their parent services.

[AlphaSigOU]

Doesn't the stolen valor law just cover decorations for valor? I've read desriptions of the law but can't recall exactly what it covered. I know I've read that the feds will send you a nasty gram for most violations unless you are going around claiming a MoH. Then they might pay you a visit and confiscate the medal. It's also illegal to sell decorations for valor(BS, SS,DSC,NC,AFC, MoH, PH). The  best defense against these guys is outing them to whoever they're trying to scam, confronting them, and making sure that everybody knows about them.

Up until 10 or so years ago (maybe longer) full size decorations and service medals were not available for sale to the general public. The law now allows their sale. The only exception, of course, is the Medal of Honor - not available for sale at any price. Now wearing a US decoration or medal when you're not entitled to do so... that's when the Stolen Valor Act comes into play.

Some years ago, one of the major medal manufacturers got into some serious trouble selling Medals of Honor on the side to collectors. I think they had to pay a big fine, collectors who bought the medal had to turn them back in (no refunds) and the manufacturer lost the contract.  Here's a link to the story: http://www.mishalov.com/FBI_False_Medal_of_Honor.html .

[flyerthom]

The concept of intent plays into this. If one has the intent to impersonate a member of the US military  or inflate ones service for some sort of personal gain then it's a problem. If one declares oneself a member of Sargent Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club band it doesn't meet the intent standard.

So if I put on a pink tutu and petty officers strips and declare myself the Lake Mead Navy for Halloween I get written off as another Vegas flake (which would most likely be accurate anyway). If I stick on a navy uniform with Seal insignia to make myself into a fake hero to get a job or impress the Vegas ladies - then I've crossed the line.

Of course either one of the above ought to get torpedoed.   

[davedove]

The Federal law concerning wear of the uniform is 10 USC, Subtitle A, Part II, Chapter 45, Sections 771 and 772.

[SAR-EMT1]

You bring up a good point... what does the law say about wearing a uniform
(with ribbons, medals etc...) as a Halloween costume?

I've seen it done (usually very poorly, and I have given a lecture or two )

[lordmonar]

One could argue that it fall into the "theatrical" clause of the law.

On the other hand....if there is no fraud involved....that is no one tried to pass themselves off as someone in the military....then there is little chance of anyone pursuing it....even though it may be a technical  violation of the law.

[RiverAux]

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 33 > § 702
§ 702. Uniform of armed forces and Public Health Service

Whoever, in any place within the jurisdiction of the United States or in the Canal Zone, without authority, wears the uniform or a distinctive part thereof or anything similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of any of the armed forces of the United States, Public Health Service or any auxiliary of such, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

No exception for intent under this law. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

We have this fake navy in Clearwater, attached to a "church," that I have to wonder about in light of what RiverAux just posted....

You probably know who I'm talking about. Can religious reasons trump this law?

[DrDave]

Hmm, how about a veteran wearing a higher rank than they actually earned?

Would that be covered in Stolen Valor, Title 10 or Title 18?

I.e. CAP member is a retired E-7 from the Army (Sergeant First Class), wearing Master Sergeant stripes because an E-7 in the Air Force is Master Sergeant.

Dr. Dave

[Eclipse]

That's covered by the CAP authorization.

[davidsinn]

Hmm, how about a veteran wearing a higher rank than they actually earned?

Would that be covered in Stolen Valor, Title 10 or Title 18?

I.e. CAP member is a retired E-7 from the Army (Sergeant First Class), wearing Master Sergeant stripes because an E-7 in the Air Force is Master Sergeant.

Dr. Dave

An E-7 is an E-7 regardless of the branch of service or title for the rank.

[DrDave]

An E-7 is an E-7 regardless of the branch of service or title for the rank.

A Master Sergeant in the Air Force is an E-7.  A Master Sergeant in the Army is an E-8.  In this case, the title for the rank is NOT equivalent.

They may be wearing an extra rocker they're not entitled to or authorized for. 

Is this Stolen Valor, Title 10, or Title 18?

Dr. Dave

[Eclipse]

You'd be wearing the equivalent grade in the respective service, and referring to yourself as the grade designation of the respective service. (i.e, you refer to yourself as SFC in your Army uniform, and MSgt in your CAP uniform)

In either case, you're functioning under authorization of the service, and under their guidelines.
A far cry from violating the law.

The Stolen Valor Act is only applicable to medals and decorations, not grade insignia.

[ßτε]

An E-7 is an E-7 regardless of the branch of service or title for the rank.

A Master Sergeant in the Air Force is an E-7.  A Master Sergeant in the Army is an E-8.  In this case, the title for the rank is NOT equivalent.

They may be wearing an extra rocker they're not entitled to or authorized for. 

Is this Stolen Valor, Title 10, or Title 18?

Dr. Dave

If the individual is a CAP Master Sergeant, the insignia worn on the CAP uniform would be the AF Master Sergeant insignia. The person would not wear Army Master Sergeant insignia on the CAP uniform. The individual would not be "wearing an extra rocker" unless the individual is wearing Army Master Sergeant insignia instead of Sergeant First Class insignia.

[davidsinn]

An E-7 is an E-7 regardless of the branch of service or title for the rank.

A Master Sergeant in the Air Force is an E-7.  A Master Sergeant in the Army is an E-8.  In this case, the title for the rank is NOT equivalent.

They may be wearing an extra rocker they're not entitled to or authorized for. 

Is this Stolen Valor, Title 10, or Title 18?

Dr. Dave

You're missing my point. The rockers don't have any meaning it's the "pay"rate that matters. It's still and E-7.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

If you follow Dr. Dave's logic, an Army master sergeant who re-upped in the Air Force would take a pay cut to keep the same title. It doesn't work that way... the pay grade dictates the rank insignia.

By that same logic, a captain in the Navy (an O-6) would have to take a three-grade cut to be a captain in CAP (an O-3) instead of a lieutenant colonel (the maximum he'd be allowed under regulation).

[DrDave]

Sorry all, I'm not making my question clear.

This has nothing to do with a CAP uniform or rank.

It's E-8 insignia being worn by a retired E-7 on their Army uniform.

Dr. Dave

[Eclipse]

Sorry all, I'm not making my question clear.

This has nothing to do with a CAP uniform or rank.

It's E-8 insignia being worn by a retired E-7 on their Army uniform.

That's not Stolen Valor, might be a Title 10 violation, and probably UCMJ.

Honorary promotion by his local CC on the way out the door, maybe?

[PHall]

Sorry all, I'm not making my question clear.

This has nothing to do with a CAP uniform or rank.

It's E-8 insignia being worn by a retired E-7 on their Army uniform.

Dr. Dave

So he's wearing ARMY Master Sergeant (E-8) grade insignia on his Army uniform? And you know for a fact that he retired as a Sergeant First Class (E-7).

How did you confirm he retired as a E-7?  Military ID card, DD Form 214, Certificate of Retirement from the Armed Forces, Retirement Orders?

I ask this because you're making a fairly serious accusation.

Please confirm the facts before you do anything.

Now if they are wearing the wrong grade insignia on the Army uniform, ask them whats up with that.
The fact that you know they're not wearing the proper grade may well be enough to stop them.

But they will probably leave CAP because of the embarrassment of getting caught.

[PHall]

Honorary promotion by his local CC on the way out the door, maybe?

Nope, not even a possibility. Civilians might get honorary grade, but military members don't, period.

[lordmonar]

TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 33 > § 702
§ 702. Uniform of armed forces and Public Health Service

Whoever, in any place within the jurisdiction of the United States or in the Canal Zone, without authority, wears the uniform or a distinctive part thereof or anything similar to a distinctive part of the uniform of any of the armed forces of the United States, Public Health Service or any auxiliary of such, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both.

No exception for intent under this law. 

Not under the law....but the DA will not go out of his way for someone wearing a halloween costume.