Army badges on CAP uniforms

[JayT]

Not that long ago there was a Spaatz Award Ceremony where the Kansas Wing Commander wore his CIB on his Dress Uniform which to me looked appropriate. The cooler aspect of the ceremony was that the Cadet Spaatz recipient was also wearing a CIB on his dress uniform. People who have earned the awards should be allowed to wear them.

AGREED!  CAP is CAP, CAP is not USAF.  Every military badge, ribbon and device should be allowed on CAP Uniforms.  PERIOD.  We already make concessions on the AF-style as to not be confused with the AF.  Why can't we let our members show their achievements, sacrifices and accomplishments??  Poor form not to allow every and anything on the uniforms. 

So, you want it both ways then?

"We're the Air Force Auxiliary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

"Well, we don't want to follow Air Force rules, and lets let every body wear anything they've ever earned on their CAP uniform!!!!!!!!"

If the USAF doesn't let members show their "achievements, sacrifices and accomplishments" on their uniforms, why should we loss sleep over it on our own 'concession' ridden uniforms?

If you want to wear some bastardized version of the USAF uniform, you're welcome to it.

I can do my job just fine in the corporates.

[mikeylikey]

"We're the Air Force Auxiliary!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

No we are not.  We are Civil Air Patrol.  We only happen to be the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force on Air Force Assigned Missions.   

Sorry to say we are already wearing "some bastardized version of the Air Force Uniform".

I think there are two groups here.  Those that have no other badges or bling to wear and those that do.  There is nothing wrong with wanting to wear a badge, ribbon or device given to you by your Country for sacrifices made. 

JTheman, if this troubles you that much, I think you would be best in a polo shirt.   

[DNall]

^ But we are wearing things (badges) that are not allowed on the AF uniform now, already.  So why hasn't the AF told us to remove them?  Unless AF specifically says here is the list of badges you can wear, then lets not (NOT) remove what we already have in the current 39-1, just to fall in line with the AF.  It has been years since the AF removed certain badges from the Blues, wouldn't you think if it was such a big deal, we would have had an ICL telling us to remove the badges as well??

The AFI was updated in I believe 2003. 39-1 hasn't been updated since well before that. It's an oversight by NHQ that our current rules on this issue have not been updated to conform with the newer AFI. NHQ staff is currently erring on the side of being more inclusive & not telling people to take stuff off. The issue has not been on the NB's radar, and AF has more important things to worry about than the few hundred people abusing this loophole. However, it is assumed that the updated version of 39-1 will be in compliance with the newer AFI, and AF will have to review the reg for compliance as I understand it. If it is not updated, then the AF will most likely force that action, which would be unfortunate if CAP really feels the need to make them do that.

I do sympathize. A CIB/CAB/CMB is in many cases hard earned, as is an EIB/EMB or any number of navy warfare badges. However, they are not authorized.

Navy warfare badges & AF specialty badges are not authorized on the Army uniform. Why is that fair? Should former airmen pin their stuff on ACUs cause they once earned it & the Army is just wrong to tell them they can't wear it? Who in the hell are they to dictate uniform policy to the Army?

The AF has authority over ALL CAP uniforms, including the corporates. That authority is absolute with the AF-style & codified in federal law. It has more of an advisory & veto authority over the corporate-style uniforms, and CAP is allowed to make changes there without getting permission in advance, but may have to make changes if it doesn't wash, and the authority is at CAP-USAF rather than AETC.

CAP does not have extensive rights in this matter. You certainly do not have the right to dictate uniform policy to the CSAF. You have the right to follow the orders of the officers appointed over you, regardless of your feelings.

As far as the auxiliary, the law says we are allowed to use the name AF Auxiliary, and it says we are the civilian auxiliary of the Air Force. It also says we are not an instrumentality of the US government unless on competent orders (AFAM). In other words, the government cannot be sued for what you do when not under their control (AFAM). In no way whatever does that effect the relationship between AF & CAP. In no way does that make us an independent corporation free to do our own thing as we please.

And Mikey... you're an ROTC instructor. You have cadets that say screw the team & do their own thing cause they feel like it? Do they get to question the competent legal orders of their superiors & decide which ones they'll follow & which ones they can ignore? Do they get to make up their own uniform regs cause it's ROTC & not the real Army so they don't have to comply with 670-1? I think not. Which brings me back to this is in part a discipline issue. If CAP can't do what they're told on a simple thing like uniforms then how can I trust them to protect really sensitive information or execute complex missions as ordered?

[mikeylikey]

^ I was only trying to get across that we are not the military.  We are a bunch of civilians, some of which have been awarded items which should be allowed to be worn on OUR uniforms.  I never said go around the regs, I never said to wear whatever you like, I did say that the chart in 39-1 lists items that the AF would not allow their members to wear, but until that chart is updated, continue to wear the stuff listed.  I also never said not to follow 39-1, nor to disregard it all together. 

I would like to see a members awards/ badges showcased on their uniform.  That is all. Nothing more, nothing less.   

If you go back to pages 1 and 2 of this thread you will see I wear an item specifically listed in 39-1, nothing more, although I have them. 

If we were at all serious about uniforms here, then 39-1 would have already been published, Region and Wing Commanders would not be allowed to add stupid uniform items (orange hats, ranger whistles) to the ever so large list and and it would follow the format of the AFI.

As far as ROTC goes, it is even more jacked up than CAP is regarding uniforms, plus Cadets are not subject to UCMJ.....(it was almost a whole semester trying to remove one cadet that took a swing at me at morning PT, cause I told him to complete the run over again because he cheated on the course.  We were finally able to disenroll him after 12 weeks.  I am happy to be getting away from Cadet Command and TRADOC).   

[DNall]

^ Okay, now that personal standard you're applying to yourself & others, assume the persona of the CAP organization/leadership and take that same stance in the relationship with the AF. The AFI is the AF rules which they have ordered CAP to comply with for the AF-style uniforms. CAP may be able to get away with doing their own thing to an extent before engendering a response from the otherwise preoccupied AF, but is that really necessary? What does it say to AF that CAP can't even follow simple orders or commander's intent when printed in black in white regs that require little to no interpretation. How far can they really trust us operationally when we can't do what we're told on the simple stuff? I know you talk to your soldiers when they fail a PT test and ask them how they're going to be able to perform in combat if they can't even do those simple events. It's the same thing.

I do really sympathize with letting people wear badges they've earned. I do think the AF should consider that, but currently that is not the policy & my job as an officer is to support the decisions of my higher regardless of how I feel about it. As such, 39-1 should be updated to the newer AFI, removing some badges that are currently authorized. That's unfortunate, but that's the way it is. If you want to talk about adding a CAP combat action medal & marksmanship ribbon to be awarded in place of sister service badges, I think that might be a reasonable compromise - unfortunate it comes to that, but reasonable.

[Hawk200]

It's an oversight by NHQ that our current rules on this issue have not been updated to conform with the newer AFI. NHQ staff is currently erring on the side of being more inclusive & not telling people to take stuff off. The issue has not been on the NB's radar, and AF has more important things to worry about than the few hundred people abusing this loophole. However, it is assumed that the updated version of 39-1 will be in compliance with the newer AFI, and AF will have to review the reg for compliance as I understand it. If it is not updated, then the AF will most likely force that action, which would be unfortunate if CAP really feels the need to make them do that.

How does anyone know if the Air Force has or would forbid those badges on the variants? Unless someone has actually spoken to someone in the Air Force with the authority to set the policy, or has documentation to indicate, how do we know? Food for thought.

For all we know, the Air Force may be permitting it through intentional inaction. It's not an issue to them so they don't address it. They may be making an allowance for those of us who also served, or in many cases, used to. They let us still wear the stuff that we earned.

As far as a 39-1 update goes, I find it hard to believe that they reviewed the latest one. It's full of contradictions, mis-spellings, and generally poor format. If the Air Force did review it, I'm betting that it would be a little more put together than it is now.

[hatentx]

I dont believe anyone is argueing that we not follow the regulations.  I dont think anyone has said that anywhere in this post.  I think the point being made is that we should allow other service badges on the CAP uniform.  In the RM these sorta of things would be brought up and when they update regs the things are takin into consideration, no matter what the regulation is. 

[brasda91]

I do sympathize. A CIB/CAB/CMB is in many cases hard earned, as is an EIB/EMB or any number of navy warfare badges. However, they are not authorized.

Are you saying the CIB is not authorized on the woodland BDU's?

[billford1]

I've had USAF Officers tell me that they are looking at an expanded role for CAP in the area of aerial recon. I have also heard USAF Officers express concern at the decline in the number of CAP membership. If some are really so concerned about whether Military Combat or other Service badges should be allowed on the uniform they should consider  the morale of those ex Military folks who might be told to remove those badges if such a move were considered. It is my position that if the USAF didn't want to allow them to be worn that this would have been dealt with long ago. I really hope that this whole thing just gets left alone. We have lot's of hard working under appreciated members who get little recognition for what they do. If  I had a CIB or other type of Military badge that had been authorized for wear on my uniform and was told that what I had risked my life for had to be removed the outcome would be unsatisfactory. This isn't just about those in Emergency Services or aviation roles it's also about Cadet Programs. Our Cadets have experienced the help of real Military Vets and even Active Duty Military who put on the CAP uniform to mentor the Cadets. They show some of the best leadership I've ever seen. If you upset these folks they will go away and our Cadets will be negatively affected. The contribution made for and by Cadets is probably the biggest contribution made by the CAP. This should not be messed with.

[mikeylikey]

The AFI is the AF rules which they have ordered CAP to comply with for the AF-style uniforms.

Where in a CAP reg does it say to comply with the AFI regarding AF-Style Uniforms?  Honestly, it needs to, and I wouldn't mind being the last chapter in that AFI.  However, AF has control over AF-style, and can approve or disapprove items worn on them.  They have approved the badges and bling listed in 39-1.  Why would we go to them and ask "is this still OK"?  If it were not, CAP-USAF would have sent a memo directing CAP members remove forboten items.  Just because the AF uniform changes every year, does not mean CAP is mandated to follow suite.  If it were, the AF would be running the CAP, like they used to. 

I will be the first person to say "let the AF write 39-1", and lets follow their AFI in regard to uniforms, but UNTIL that happens, we follow the guidance in the current 39-1.  AGAIN, WE FOLLOW THE GUIDANCE IN THE CURRENT 39-1.  We have no obligation to disregard current 39-1 for the AFI.  UNLESS somewhere it says "Follow the Air Force Uniform Instruction", we don't have to.

DNALL.......you are forgetting we are supposed to be following CAP regs, not AF regs, UNLESS the CAP reg says "FOLLOW this AFI, or this DoD Directive (like the nondiscrimination policy does).  We Follow CAP regs first....because.........we ARE CAP! 

[DNall]

How does anyone know if the Air Force has or would forbid those badges on the variants?

The rule is CAP will wear the AF-style uniform IAW the AFI, and 39-1 will define the org specific variations (as well as the corp-style uniforms). It's not a matter of asking or not asking.

This really has a whole lot more to do with other services not permitting wear of AF specialty badges on their uniforms (and vice versa) than it does anything to do with CAP.

As far as a 39-1 update goes, I find it hard to believe that they reviewed the latest one....

They review it for compliance with the law/policy, and advise only on that, not being a good publication. CAP-USAF reviews all CAP pubs before publication.

I dont believe anyone is argueing that we not follow the regulations.  I dont think anyone has said that anywhere in this post.  I think the point being made is that we should allow other service badges on the CAP uniform.  In the RM these sorta of things would be brought up and when they update regs the things are takin into consideration, no matter what the regulation is. 

The regs are the standard you are held to as an individual. Obviously everyone wants to follow that.

Likewise, the AF holds CAP as an organization to a standard set in the AF regs & they are ordered to comply with that. Right now, the CAP reg is way out of date, which allows people to wear badges that were once but are no longer permitted on the AF uniform. That's something that has to get fixed at some point.

Do they deserve the badges? Of course by all means, and they should take pride in them. But, that doesn't mean the AF wants to allow it on their uniform, and there really is nothing we can do about that either way. As I said, this is more of an issue between the AF & other services than CAP. It's an imperfect world & we're doing the best we can with what we have to work with.

Are you saying the CIB is not authorized on the woodland BDU's?

The reg says those badges auth for wear on the AF uniform (which CIB is not), then refers to a quick ref chart for a list of those that are auth by the AF. CIB is on that chart because at the time it was made it was auth on the AF uniform. It is not auth under the most recent AFI.

So, I'm saying it is specifically authorized in the outdated version of 39-1, but very clearly should not be upon revision. If I personally think that's the right or wrong call is completely a different matter.

I've had USAF Officers tell me that they are looking at an expanded role for CAP in the area of aerial recon. I have also heard USAF Officers express concern at the decline in the number of CAP membership. If some are really so concerned about whether Military Combat or other Service badges should be allowed on the uniform they should consider  the morale of those ex Military folks who might be told to remove those badges if such a move were considered. It is my position that if the USAF didn't want to allow them to be worn that this would have been dealt with long ago. I really hope that this whole thing just gets left alone. We have lot's of hard working under appreciated members who get little recognition for what they do. If  I had a CIB or other type of Military badge that had been authorized for wear on my uniform and was told that what I had risked my life for had to be removed the outcome would be unsatisfactory. This isn't just about those in Emergency Services or aviation roles it's also about Cadet Programs. Our Cadets have experienced the help of real Military Vets and even Active Duty Military who put on the CAP uniform to mentor the Cadets. They show some of the best leadership I've ever seen. If you upset these folks they will go away and our Cadets will be negatively affected. The contribution made for and by Cadets is probably the biggest contribution made by the CAP. This should not be messed with.

Navy badges weren't authorized under the old reg, and hence the current version of 39-1. Why is that fair? Ranger/SF/Sapper Tabs & combat patches have never been authorized. People come in & put on freakin glow in the dark blue tapes versus the subdued they've worn their whole career - now it's going to be a completely different uniform then they've ever worn before. They get squared up that we're not going to be doing combat training and pulled down into the CAP lane. That's who we are & they have to deal with that if they want to contribute.

I understand change can ruffle some feathers. That's part of it. You would hope that change is for the better, or at least well justified. If someone is going to quit mentoring cadets into successful adults because the AF says they can't wear their CIB while doing it, then they really got some other issues to deal with. I am sorry and even a little embarrassed to tell them they'd have to take it off, but is that really what defines them as a CAP member? I don't wear a whole lot of crap I'm authorized. It really doesn't seem to effect my performance as an officer one way or another. 

[MIKE]

I can see that this is just gonna go round and round until another ICL comes out... with the I can wears mah badge crowd pointing at CAPM 39-1 Table 6-5. ... and the take it off crowd pointing at CAPM 39-1 Table 6-4. and AFI36-2903 Table 5-2. Rules 5 through 7.