SERVICE COAT INSIGNIA

[ColonelJack]

What I'd like to see done with some of our uniform combinations:

Dump the aviator grays. and make the corporate blues the official senior member uniform.

Modify the grooming standards slightly to allow neatly trimmed facial hair such as goatees and beards.

Bring back the CAP letters to the blue epaulets. It ain't hard, Vanguard.

Ditch the silver sleeve braid. Either replace it with AF blue or eliminate it completely.

Amscray with the blue and woodland BDUs. Get a more complementary solid color BDU to work with the new USAF ABUs.

Blue utilities: make 'em a little more distinctive than the blue flight suit. Instead of the flight suit name patch, why not dark blue CAP and name tapes above the slant pockets?

I know most of the above suggestions will be consigned to the proverbial trash heap, but that's what I think.

Great suggestions!  I like 'em all!  (Except maybe the one about dumping the aviator grays -- they're okay in their own way.)

Jack

[Hawk200]

Dump the aviator grays. and make the corporate blues the official senior member uniform.

Modify the grooming standards slightly to allow neatly trimmed facial hair such as goatees and beards.

If they went with one or the other, it would be more consistent. Three separate dress uniforms is unnecessary. And I think it's a little elitist to design a corporate uniform that only some people can wear, so allowing beards with the corporate is a good thing.

Bring back the CAP letters to the blue epaulets. It ain't hard, Vanguard.

If those same epaulets are used for blues, no problem. If you're going to have blue on one, and gray on the other, it's stupid, and a serious lack of uniformity. There are numerous people in CAP that didn't join to be Air Force officers, why are they so hell bent on looking like one?

Ditch the silver sleeve braid. Either replace it with AF blue or eliminate it completely.

I would buy that. Probably be easier and cheaper for the membership to eliminate it. Personally, I feel that our mess dress looks better than the Air Force's, with the dark blue braid. The AF ones look gaudy to me.

Amscray with the blue and woodland BDUs. Get a more complementary solid color BDU to work with the new USAF ABUs.

And create yet another uniform? People are going to think of our organization as schizophrenic. And I don't want to have buy another set of clothes. I don't mind changing some insignia, but having to get another combo together is a little too much.

Blue utilities: make 'em a little more distinctive than the blue flight suit. Instead of the flight suit name patch, why not dark blue CAP and name tapes above the slant pockets?

I don't see why we even have it . We have a utility uniform equivalent to the woodland BDU's now. The utility jumpsuit is unnecesary.

We need to eliminate some of our excessive uniforms, and start mirroring insignia placement across the board. The same color epaulets and nametags on all uniforms, the same color tapes on all BDU's (the navy blue tapes and rank would probably look fairly good on Woodlands), all the insignia with standardized placement, and patches on one BDU go in the same place as the other. No more of "Wear this thing here on this uniform, but wear it here on that uniform."

Let's standardize it all.

[Grumpy]

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

The Air Force has no say in our corporate uniforms.  None.  And the only real issue you bring up here that they might even remotely be concerned about is the blue epaulets -- which an embroidered "CAP" would fix to their satisfaction.  (Which, I think, is a very good idea whose time has come.)  As for the hard rank and silver braid, from every single thing I've read from AF -- here and in other places -- their attitude toward the corporate uniform is a big yawning "So what?" 

All I have found about the issue shows that the Air Force simply doesn't care about CAP corporate uniforms.  The corporate uniform is sufficiently different from AF uniforms to not be an issue to them.  (With the possible exception of the aforementioned blue epaulets, which can be fixed easily.)

I get it that several of us here don't like the corporate uniforms.  I get it that we're not all that thrilled about how they came into existence.  I even get it that some are concerned about possible repercussions.  But what I don't (still) get is this -- if the corporate uniforms are not an issue at all to the Air Force, why are they such an issue to some members of CAP?

But geez ... the uniform is here.  It is a part of CAP, existing in uniform regulations.  The Air Force does not care, figuring (rightly so) that they have far more important things to worry about.  And the corporate uniform is not required of any individual member.  If you are able to wear AF-style, do so their way and they'll be happy.  If you aren't able to wear AF-style, wear the corporate -- or the blazer -- or the aviation grays -- or the polo shirt if that's your preference. 

Please, though, let's stop pretending the Air Force gives a darn.  They don't.  They've said so. 

Jack

Right on Ol' Fearless Leader,

Brian B.

[CAP Producer]

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

The Air Force has no say in our corporate uniforms.  None.  And the only real issue you bring up here that they might even remotely be concerned about is the blue epaulets -- which an embroidered "CAP" would fix to their satisfaction.  (Which, I think, is a very good idea whose time has come.)  As for the hard rank and silver braid, from every single thing I've read from AF -- here and in other places -- their attitude toward the corporate uniform is a big yawning "So what?" 

All I have found about the issue shows that the Air Force simply doesn't care about CAP corporate uniforms.  The corporate uniform is sufficiently different from AF uniforms to not be an issue to them.  (With the possible exception of the aforementioned blue epaulets, which can be fixed easily.)

I get it that several of us here don't like the corporate uniforms.  I get it that we're not all that thrilled about how they came into existence.  I even get it that some are concerned about possible repercussions.  But what I don't (still) get is this -- if the corporate uniforms are not an issue at all to the Air Force, why are they such an issue to some members of CAP?

But geez ... the uniform is here.  It is a part of CAP, existing in uniform regulations.  The Air Force does not care, figuring (rightly so) that they have far more important things to worry about.  And the corporate uniform is not required of any individual member.  If you are able to wear AF-style, do so their way and they'll be happy.  If you aren't able to wear AF-style, wear the corporate -- or the blazer -- or the aviation grays -- or the polo shirt if that's your preference. 

Please, though, let's stop pretending the Air Force gives a darn.  They don't.  They've said so. 

Jack

Thank you Jack. That was very well said. Let's move on to something else now.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Tony Pineda Uniform.

It is called that because he was the one who came up with it.

I predict it will go away when general Pineda goes away also. 

No, it most probably won't.  Not after all these SMs have spent the $160 a pop for one.  Including most (if not all) of the National Board, the NEC, and a whole lot of wing-level and lower officers.  You want to make a bunch of people very angry?  Tell 'em they're going to have to write that expense off.

Jack

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

The General sought and received approval for the TPU. Officially, the AF takes no position on CAP corporate uniforms.  Un officially, TP was told the TPU was OK with Big Mother Blue.

[Eagle400]

Well, then it is safe to say that the TPU will last as long as there are people in the Air Force who are fine with it (and who are in a position to affect the future of the TPU). 

I have been told that there was an Air Force Lt Gen at the Pentagon who saw general Pineda in his TPU and had nothing but disdain for the uniform.  However, that general probably was not in a position to affect the future of the TPU.  Too bad, in my opinion.

You see, it's not that the Air Force approves of the TPU.  It's that there are a certain number of Air Force generals (who can affect the future of the TPU) who are fine with the uniform.  If Air Force Times did a story on the TPU and asked for reader input, you'd see comments that are worse than the ones written about the proposed new service dress.

I will bet that most Air Force personnel have no clue what the TPU is.  So it's not fair to say that the Air Force approves of the TPU.  The only way to find out if the Air Force approves of the uniform is to do a service-wide survey.         

[Hawk200]

If it's an established fact that the Air Force is OK with the TPU, then let's ditch the blazer combo. I've seen numerous security staff wearing the exact same outfit: navy blazer, grey slacks. Open it up to all personnel in CAP, not just a few that choose to shave.

Although, I'll never give up the Air Force blues, too much I'm able to wear on them. Not to mention, got way too many Air Force uniforms in the closet that I'd like to get a few more years out of.

[ColonelJack]

Well, then it is safe to say that the TPU will last as long as there are people in the Air Force who are fine with it (and who are in a position to affect the future of the TPU). 

I have been told that there was an Air Force Lt Gen at the Pentagon who saw general Pineda in his TPU and had nothing but disdain for the uniform.  However, that general probably was not in a position to affect the future of the TPU.  Too bad, in my opinion.

You see, it's not that the Air Force approves of the TPU.  It's that there are a certain number of Air Force generals (who can affect the future of the TPU) who are fine with the uniform.  If Air Force Times did a story on the TPU and asked for reader input, you'd see comments that are worse than the ones written about the proposed new service dress.

I will bet that most Air Force personnel have no clue what the TPU is.  So it's not fair to say that the Air Force approves of the TPU.  The only way to find out if the Air Force approves of the uniform is to do a service-wide survey.         

Okay, let's go through this once again.  By their own regulations, the Air Force cannot say anything about the corporate uniforms -- they can't say they like 'em, can't say they hate 'em, can't say anything -- and have it with force of policy.  Are there AF personnel who don't like the uniform?  Probably.  Does the Air Force have the authority or the power to do anything about it?  No.  Not a bit.

Most AF personnel don't know what the corporate uniform is and -- read this part carefully -- they do not care.  There's never going to be a service-wide survey because what the Auxiliary of the Air Force wears just is not a major point to worry about for the active-duty folks. 

The corporate uniform will last as long as Civil Air Patrol wants it to last.  The Air Force has NO say in the matter.  AF members may not appreciate the uniform on a personal basis, but that is only their opinions -- and those opinions are worth as much as anyone else's, and do not have the force of regulation or law behind them.

Can we move on now?  The uniform is here.  It is staying as long as CAP wants it to stay.  We might wish it otherwise, you and me, but we have as much say about it as the Air Force has ... repeat after me ... none at all.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

If it's an established fact that the Air Force is OK with the TPU, then let's ditch the blazer combo. I've seen numerous security staff wearing the exact same outfit: navy blazer, grey slacks. Open it up to all personnel in CAP, not just a few that choose to shave.

Although, I'll never give up the Air Force blues, too much I'm able to wear on them. Not to mention, got way too many Air Force uniforms in the closet that I'd like to get a few more years out of.

My friend, nobody wants anyone to give up the Air Force blues.  (Though, if we're honest with each other and ourselves, the AF would clobber our wearing their uniform before they say much about the corporate one.)  I can no longer wear my AF uniform, but I keep it for the day when I can once again.  Until then, when I am allowed, I will wear the corporate uniform.  It's close enough for me.

Jack

[Eagle400]

We might wish it otherwise, you and me, but we have as much say about it as the Air Force has ... repeat after me ... none at all.

Yes, and that would not be a problem for me if NHQ asked for member input before the TPU came out.

I hate how general Pineda never asks for membership input regarding new uniforms/uniform changes.  CAP may not be a democracy, but at least the Air Force has the sense to seek input from people in the field before instituting entire new uniforms.   

[LtCol White]

We might wish it otherwise, you and me, but we have as much say about it as the Air Force has ... repeat after me ... none at all.

Yes, and that would not be a problem for me if NHQ asked for member input before the TPU came out.

I hate how general Pineda never asks for membership input regarding new uniforms/uniform changes.  CAP may not be a democracy, but at least the Air Force has the sense to seek input from people in the field before instituting entire new uniforms.   

Quite true. While you will never please all, USAF came up with a prototype and then did a survey of anyone who wanted to participate to give their feedback on the proposal BEFORE it went into production for wear test. CAP is a MUCH smaller org than USAF so if they can do it, CAP certianly can do the same given our small number of members comparatively speaking.

[ColonelJack]

We might wish it otherwise, you and me, but we have as much say about it as the Air Force has ... repeat after me ... none at all.

Yes, and that would not be a problem for me if NHQ asked for member input before the TPU came out.

I hate how general Pineda never asks for membership input regarding new uniforms/uniform changes.  CAP may not be a democracy, but at least the Air Force has the sense to seek input from people in the field before instituting entire new uniforms.   

Granted, but as you also point out, there's nothing that requires NHQ to seek member input before a uniform or any other directive is implemented.  Would it be nice, a more member-friendly idea?  Certainly!!  Does NHQ have to do it?  Not if I read regulations correctly, they don't.

I'm not trying to be a smart [donkey] here, but consider:  by extension, this idea also would require member input before any other regulations are changed or anything new is considered.  And NHQ just doesn't do that.  (We can't be picky, having input here but not there.) 

CAP is not, as you say, a democracy.  Neither is the AF.  Yes, they have a uniform board that conducts field tests for new items, but in the end it's the boys and girls with stars on their shoulders and three sets of farts 'n darts on their hats who make the final decisions.  How else do you think McPeak's uniform monstrosity made it out of committee?  It might've been nice if Gen. Pineda had consulted with someone other than the NEC about the uniform idea, but he didn't.  And apparently he didn't have to.  Running the new uniform by AF was a courtesy, one he didn't have to do (but very wisely did) ... and all reports indicate the Air Force doesn't mind the new uniform one bit.

And the last time I looked, nobody was holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to buy the coroprate uniform.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

While you will never please all, USAF came up with a prototype and then did a survey of anyone who wanted to participate to give their feedback on the proposal BEFORE it went into production for wear test. CAP is a MUCH smaller org than USAF so if they can do it, CAP certianly can do the same given our small number of members comparatively speaking.

Truth be told, I'd like to see that done also.  There's certainly nothing wrong with member input via wear tests ... and in an organization like CAP, it would carry a lot more weight, since any new uniform items would have to be acquired at the members' own expense.  People vote with their wallets more than any other reason.

But even on active duty, the input from wear tests only goes so far.  I think you'll agree that if a certain AF Chief of Staff wants a certain uniform on his personnel, he's going to get it his way.  (Does the name McPeak ring a bell?  )  If the silly man had actually listened to the input from the field, AF -- and CAP -- would still be wearing the four-pocket, four-button, blue Army-style blouse today.

Jack

[Hawk200]

I'm not trying to be a smart [donkey] here, but consider:  by extension, this idea also would require member input before any other regulations are changed or anything new is considered.  And NHQ just doesn't do that.  (We can't be picky, having input here but not there.) 

That's not the way it works in the military I'm in. Not all reg changes get member input. If it's determined through legitimate study that something can be done safer, cheaper or in less time, then that manner is adopted. There are times when the only input is based on facts and risk assessments. Operations are far different than appearance.

Looking for input on things that will affect the appearance of the military is good leadership, and it takes into account the opinions of personnel. If people don't like a certain uniform, it will be obvious. Some people will refuse to wear it until it becomes mandatory, others will just separate to keep their own principles intact. Do you know how many people joined the Marines because their uniforms are some of the best looking ones in the US military? There are times when appearance is an issue to people, and they make choices based on their feelings in the matter.

Suggesting that all reg changes should go through membership is not practical, and in many cases can be harmful. One is apples, the other oranges.

[BillB]

The only problem with changing regulaations by NHQ, often the person writing the regulation doesn't know the program they are changing. This was most noticable in 39-1 and 52-16. Both are confusing as written. In 39-1 one example is placement of insignia on various uniforms. On 52-16 an example is in the CAC section where a long standing policy under the several older regulations had the CAC representatives elected or appointed, now it's just appointed. But units still try to elect their reps and cadets become unhappy when they find they can't.
Often regulations proposed by CAP members on higher headquarters reflect their opinions or egos. This is most evident in the 60 series regulations. Changes made by National also reflect fear of lawsuits, fear of accidents, and thinking that pilots should get bmore FAA ratings to be qualified pilots ignoring that many pilots with private licenses for example have thousands of hours compared to someone with a brand new commercial rating. This reduces the number of pilots available to some aircraft types or operations.

[Major Carrales]

Could you imagine the resulting meshegas if they had brought the idea of a new uniform up to the CAP Populace?  We are the most divided sector on the matter.  One half would vote it up, the other would vote it down.  Then we would get nowhere.

Then, if on side prevailed, the discussion here woudl be..."We didn't vote for that...all of us should have voted affirnatively on it for it to have passed."

Can't please everyone.

[LtCol White]

Could you imagine the resulting meshegas if they had brought the idea of a new uniform up to the CAP Populace?  We are the most divided sector on the matter.  One half would vote it up, the other would vote it down.  Then we would get nowhere.

Then, if on side prevailed, the discussion here woudl be..."We didn't vote for that...all of us should have voted affirnatively on it for it to have passed."

Can't please everyone.

Not necessary to get a vote for approval from membership. USAF didnt do this either. Solicit feedback as they did. Review it to see if any has merit and CONSIDER changes what would make sense that may not have been considered or realilzed during the design phase. Then proceed with wear testing as USAF is doing.

[Major Carrales]

Not necessary to get a vote for approval from membership. USAF didnt do this either. Solicit feedback as they did. Review it to see if any has merit and CONSIDER changes what would make sense that may not have been considered or realilzed during the design phase. Then proceed with wear testing as USAF is doing.

CONSIDER is a strage word.  Suppose the feedback is taken, and CONSIDERED.  Then the topic here would be one of "He's ignored us" instead of "he's making stuff up."  It's the kobayashi maru, no win situation for anyone.

Plus, as for wear tests in CAP, is that realistic?  I mean, we don't wear uniforms of a daily basis...unless you are me who runs CAP over three or four days a week in different Cities.  Much less a service coat.

[LtCol White]

Not necessary to get a vote for approval from membership. USAF didnt do this either. Solicit feedback as they did. Review it to see if any has merit and CONSIDER changes what would make sense that may not have been considered or realilzed during the design phase. Then proceed with wear testing as USAF is doing.

CONSIDER is a strage word.  Suppose the feedback is taken, and CONSIDERED.  Then the topic here would be one of "He's ignored us" instead of "he's making stuff up."  It's the kobayashi maru, no win situation for anyone.

Plus, as for wear tests in CAP, is that realistic?  I mean, we don't wear uniforms of a daily basis...unless you are me who runs CAP over three or four days a week in different Cities.  Much less a service coat.

Well, USAF could be acused of the same if they don't make changes based on their feedback. Eventhough we arent in uniform every day, a wear test program COULD be set up with personnel NHQ if it was desired. Its always possible.

[MIKE]

If I had my way the CAP distinctive uniforms and Corporate Uniform would be drastically reduced.