SERVICE COAT INSIGNIA

[RogueLeader]

I could live with this sort of thing, if not a "A" then the CAP shield or other moniker.

IMO, CAP having its own, distinctive rank insignia isn't a bad idea.

We, by law, have the same insignia as of the AF.  So, if we went to CAP distinctive insignia, we would be in violation of Federal law.

[JarakMaldon]

We, by law, have the same insignia as of the AF.  So, if we went to CAP distinctive insignia, we would be in violation of Federal law.

I'm not quite following you here.  Are you talking about the rank insignia by itself, like the bars, oak leaves, eagles and stars alone?

Why? There's no reason to re-invent the wheel. It would just compound our problems. It would also be difficult to create something new and unique. I'd rather they spend the money on something more important than a study to create new insignia.

No reinvention of the wheel is necessary.  Really, CAP isn't broken by having the rank insignia that it does.  However, metal rank and blue slides seem to be some sort of national objective, for whatever reason.  Some form of distinctive rank insignia, that beyond-a-doubt won't be confused with any form of AF insignia, could bring about a return of said particulars.

But then, you'd have complains from certain people that CAP was no longer wearing "true" rank insignia.

Would any one uniform situation make everyone happy? I really doubt it.

[jason.pennington]

OK, this is really showing my lack of knowledge, but what does TPU stand for?

[Eagle400]

OK, this is really showing my lack of knowledge, but what does TPU stand for?

Tony Pineda Uniform.

It is called that because he was the one who came up with it.

I predict it will go away when general Pineda goes away also. 

[mikeylikey]

^^Doubtfull that it will go away!  Now that Vanguard owns the design and production rights, I would see an elimination of the AF style before the TPU. 

All in all the TPU is not a bad looking coat, although the silver braid really should not have been added.  Perhaps no braid would have been better.  Also......why can't military awards be worn on it, when I can wear my mil bling on a civilian sports jacket? 

[Hawk200]

No reinvention of the wheel is necessary.  Really, CAP isn't broken by having the rank insignia that it does.  However, metal rank and blue slides seem to be some sort of national objective, for whatever reason.  Some form of distinctive rank insignia, that beyond-a-doubt won't be confused with any form of AF insignia, could bring about a return of said particulars.

Alright, so what will that new rank insignia be? Keep in mind that if it's going to be distinctive, it cannot mirror any existing design. And since it's an issue, it must be something that would be feasible in metal.

BTW, are you willing to foot the cost on the development? Also, you'll have to explain to both the Air Force and the CAP membership why they need to change. I figure Congress might desire an explanation as well. No bets on the Congress part, but it wouldn't hurt to be prepared.

Since it will be distinctive rank insignia, you should probably go ahead and just create new rank names to go with it. Since the military won't recognize it, you shouldn't use the same rank titles.

Come to think of it, what reason would the Air Force have to maintain a subordinate organization with a rank structure different from it's own? There aren't many reasons out there.

Also, you state "Really, CAP isn't broken by having the rank insignia that it does". If it doesn't seem broken, then why break it?

Are you starting to see the issues of such an undertaking? Easier to stick what we have, and start listening to what Mommy tells us.

As far as the metal rank goes, it's not a National objective, it's a Pineda objective. One that he did an end run around the Air Force by creating a pseudo-Air Force uniform with pieces and parts from the military services. And since we now have a uniform with metal rank insignia on it, what kind of priority do you think Pineda is going to place on getting metal rank on the Air Force service coats? I'm betting not a whole lot, if any.

People may have gotten their metal rank, but they traded their integrity for it. Easy to understand why the Air Force doesn't have a lot of patience with us.

[RogueLeader]

We, by law, have the same insignia as of the AF.  So, if we went to CAP distinctive insignia, we would be in violation of Federal law.

I'm not quite following you here.  Are you talking about the rank insignia by itself, like the bars, oak leaves, eagles and stars alone?


But then, you'd have complains from certain people that CAP was no longer wearing "true" rank insignia.

Would any one uniform situation make everyone happy? I really doubt it.

The law requires us to wear the same insignia as the AF, it just does not carry any legal authority.  We may wear gold oak leaves, but that does not give us Majors' authority under the UCMJ.  It only denotes achievement in CAP.  In that sense, no one has "true" rank within CAP.  For those officers retired from AD carry their AD rank, but cannot exceed O-5, unless go as wing commander or higher.  I hope that helps.

[LtCol White]

Perhaps the next CAP-USAF CC will be supportive of letting us go back to metal grade.  I too find it silly to throw on a grey slide!  Why can't we just do what we are doing now with the black army windbreaker that can be worn with the TPU?  You know......have our metal insignia plus a "CAP" cutout along with it.  No problem there.....as that was what the AF "MADE US DO". 

I doubt we'll see metal rank on the coats again. Possible but prob not.

What WOULD work is take the blue epaulets with CAP on them and put those on both the USAF coat and the TPU coat. Use the same blue epaulets on the USAF shirts and the TPU shirts. Blue name tag for both shirts. Put CAP cutouts back on the USAF coat. The blue epaulets would be worn on all jackets, sweaters, etc for both uniforms.

Doing this would make both uniforms more similar. All insignia would be the same. USAF would be happy because no more metal rank on the TPU and TPU epaulets would have CAP on them and not look like Reg USAF ones. CAP members would be happy because grey would be gone. Then CAP promises to enforce the F*** out of uniform regs for wear of the USAF uniforms.

Just my 2 cents.

[ColonelJack]

Tony Pineda Uniform.

It is called that because he was the one who came up with it.

I predict it will go away when general Pineda goes away also. 

No, it most probably won't.  Not after all these SMs have spent the $160 a pop for one.  Including most (if not all) of the National Board, the NEC, and a whole lot of wing-level and lower officers.  You want to make a bunch of people very angry?  Tell 'em they're going to have to write that expense off.

Jack

[Eagle400]

Tony Pineda Uniform.

It is called that because he was the one who came up with it.

I predict it will go away when general Pineda goes away also. 

No, it most probably won't.  Not after all these SMs have spent the $160 a pop for one.  Including most (if not all) of the National Board, the NEC, and a whole lot of wing-level and lower officers.  You want to make a bunch of people very angry?  Tell 'em they're going to have to write that expense off.

Jack

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

[Major Carrales]

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

I have already spoken with USAF generals about this and they say they neither want to do anything about it and that they don't care.

[Eagle400]

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.     

I have already spoken with USAF generals about this and they say they neither want to do anything about it and that they don't care.

I will bet my life that those USAF generals are not in a position to make decisions that could affect any CAP uniform.  In fact, those generals probably have nothing to do with CAP.

[Major Carrales]

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.     

I have already spoken with USAF generals about this and they say they neither want to do anything about it and that they don't care.

I will bet my life that those USAF generals are not in a position to make decisions that could affect any CAP uniform.  In fact, those generals probably have nothing to do with CAP.

He reads this.  That's enough.

[jb512]

Perhaps the next CAP-USAF CC will be supportive of letting us go back to metal grade.  I too find it silly to throw on a grey slide!  Why can't we just do what we are doing now with the black army windbreaker that can be worn with the TPU?  You know......have our metal insignia plus a "CAP" cutout along with it.  No problem there.....as that was what the AF "MADE US DO". 

I doubt we'll see metal rank on the coats again. Possible but prob not.

What WOULD work is take the blue epaulets with CAP on them and put those on both the USAF coat and the TPU coat. Use the same blue epaulets on the USAF shirts and the TPU shirts. Blue name tag for both shirts. Put CAP cutouts back on the USAF coat. The blue epaulets would be worn on all jackets, sweaters, etc for both uniforms.

Doing this would make both uniforms more similar. All insignia would be the same. USAF would be happy because no more metal rank on the TPU and TPU epaulets would have CAP on them and not look like Reg USAF ones. CAP members would be happy because grey would be gone. Then CAP promises to enforce the F*** out of uniform regs for wear of the USAF uniforms.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't think there is an easy answer that everyone will agree on.  I wish we would have more standardization though.  I can think of at least 10 different uniforms that we wear, off the top of my head, and different insignia requirements for half.

[AlphaSigOU]

What I'd like to see done with some of our uniform combinations:

Dump the aviator grays. and make the corporate blues the official senior member uniform.

Modify the grooming standards slightly to allow neatly trimmed facial hair such as goatees and beards.

Bring back the CAP letters to the blue epaulets. It ain't hard, Vanguard.

Ditch the silver sleeve braid. Either replace it with AF blue or eliminate it completely.

Amscray with the blue and woodland BDUs. Get a more complementary solid color BDU to work with the new USAF ABUs.

Blue utilities: make 'em a little more distinctive than the blue flight suit. Instead of the flight suit name patch, why not dark blue CAP and name tapes above the slant pockets?

I know most of the above suggestions will be consigned to the proverbial trash heap, but that's what I think.

[RogueLeader]

What I'd like to see done with some of our uniform combinations:

Dump the aviator grays. and make the corporate blues the official senior member uniform.

Modify the grooming standards slightly to allow neatly trimmed facial hair such as goatees and beards.

Bring back the CAP letters to the blue epaulets. It ain't hard, Vanguard.

Ditch the silver sleeve braid. Either replace it with AF blue or eliminate it completely.

Amscray with the blue and woodland BDUs. Get a more complementary solid color BDU to work with the new USAF ABUs.

Blue utilities: make 'em a little more distinctive than the blue flight suit. Instead of the flight suit name patch, why not dark blue CAP and name tapes above the slant pockets?

I know most of the above suggestions will be consigned to the proverbial trash heap, but that's what I think.

That would seriously torq off many, many members.  I, for one, only have woodland BDU's and AF Blues.  No corporates.  And I'll be darned if I go to the corporates.  The AF said I can have AF style uniforms and I will.

[AlphaSigOU]

That would seriously torq off many, many members.  I, for one, only have woodland BDU's and AF Blues.  No corporates.  And I'll be darned if I go to the corporates.  The AF said I can have AF style uniforms and I will.

Exactly why I qualified my statement mentioning that most, if not all of my suggestions will be tossed.

Tags - MIKE

[RiverAux]

Under what law is CAP required to use "standard" military rank insignia?  I'm not advocating we change, but don't recall ever seeing any legal mandate that we use them either. 

[ColonelJack]

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

The Air Force has no say in our corporate uniforms.  None.  And the only real issue you bring up here that they might even remotely be concerned about is the blue epaulets -- which an embroidered "CAP" would fix to their satisfaction.  (Which, I think, is a very good idea whose time has come.)  As for the hard rank and silver braid, from every single thing I've read from AF -- here and in other places -- their attitude toward the corporate uniform is a big yawning "So what?" 

All I have found about the issue shows that the Air Force simply doesn't care about CAP corporate uniforms.  The corporate uniform is sufficiently different from AF uniforms to not be an issue to them.  (With the possible exception of the aforementioned blue epaulets, which can be fixed easily.)

I get it that several of us here don't like the corporate uniforms.  I get it that we're not all that thrilled about how they came into existence.  I even get it that some are concerned about possible repercussions.  But what I don't (still) get is this -- if the corporate uniforms are not an issue at all to the Air Force, why are they such an issue to some members of CAP?

But geez ... the uniform is here.  It is a part of CAP, existing in uniform regulations.  The Air Force does not care, figuring (rightly so) that they have far more important things to worry about.  And the corporate uniform is not required of any individual member.  If you are able to wear AF-style, do so their way and they'll be happy.  If you aren't able to wear AF-style, wear the corporate -- or the blazer -- or the aviation grays -- or the polo shirt if that's your preference. 

Please, though, let's stop pretending the Air Force gives a darn.  They don't.  They've said so. 

Jack

[ColonelJack]

Under what law is CAP required to use "standard" military rank insignia?  I'm not advocating we change, but don't recall ever seeing any legal mandate that we use them either. 

I don't think there's any "law" requiring CAP use standard military rank insignia.  It's more a matter of tradition, since such rank was approved back in the day when the organization was part of the Army Air Corps.  I don't think there's a need to change it, either.  Most people who recognize American uniforms can read such insignia quickly.  (By contrast, I have never understood those horn combinations used on many Fire Department uniforms -- I just can't remember how many horns make a captain, what a combination that looks like an asterisk means, etc.)  It's simple recognition, a quick and easy way to tell who holds what grade.

Probably why the CGAux uses the insignia with their own titles -- it still looks familiar enough to tell who's what.

Jack