SERVICE COAT INSIGNIA

[jason.pennington]

I know everyone just can't get enough uniform changes for one year, but as I was wearing my service coat, I could not help but wonder how dumb I looked.  We must be the only organization that wears shoulder sleeves on our jackets.  As you know, the sleeves say CAP, but our lapels say US.  This is just dumb, in my opinion.  When I was a cadet, seniors had the metal insignia on their jackets and CAP on the lapels -- sort of like the corporate coat today.  Why did we change it?  I wish we could go back.  Police departments and fire departments wear metal insignia on their coats and they are not confused with any military service.

Or maybe we should have USCAP cutouts on our lapels!!  Just get away from the shoulder sleeves on the jackets.

[RogueLeader]

To put it simply: the AF said no to metal rank.  we then had to go to the cloth epaulets.

[JarakMaldon]

Why did we change it?

As I understand, it was a "punishment" for the transgressions of a certain national commander.  Having been in grade school at the time, I am not entirely certain on that.

I wish we could go back.

So did the current national commander.  Since the AF said "no way," along came the TPU.  The chief reason for its creation, cited by the boss himself, was to get the metal rank and blue epaulets back.

Police departments and fire departments wear metal insignia on their coats and they are not confused with any military service.

Very true, but the uniforms of PDs and FDs are very different from any military uniform.  The uniform of the CAP is very similar to the uniform of the Air Force.  Since the AF wants to be absolutely sure that people can tell CAP and AF personnel apart, you have grey slides.

Should CAP adopt the new Air Force service coat, you may see the gray go away.  The epaulets on that coat are partially sewn down and would prohibit anything being slid on there.  I am sure, however, a way will be found to incorporate an obvious CAP indicator.  I assess it will be something like the Army's leaders identification insignia, a short loop of gray (or some other color) cloth with "CAP" or "USCAP" on it that goes around the part of the epaulet that you can slide someone onto.  In fact, didn't CAP had something like that in the past for a short time?

[arajca]

Why did we change it?

As I understand, it was a "punishment" for the transgressions of a certain national commander.  Having been in grade school at the time, I am not entirely certain on that.

Yep. Let no more be mentioned about He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named.

I wish we could go back.

So did the current national commander.  Since the AF said "no way," along came the TPU.  The chief reason for its creation, cited by the boss himself, was to get the metal rank and blue epaulets back.

Along with providing a more military-looking uniform for those who cannot wear the AF uniforms.

Police departments and fire departments wear metal insignia on their coats and they are not confused with any military service.

Very true, but the uniforms of PDs and FDs are very different from any military uniform.  The uniform of the CAP is very similar to the uniform of the Air Force.  Since the AF wants to be absolutely sure that people can tell CAP and AF personnel apart, you have grey slides.

Don't forget the fire and police folks usually wear a large piece of metal on their chest to identify themselves as Fire or Police.

Should CAP adopt the new Air Force service coat, you may see the gray go away.  The epaulets on that coat are partially sewn down and would prohibit anything being slid on there.  I am sure, however, a way will be found to incorporate an obvious CAP indicator.  I assess it will be something like the Army's leaders identification insignia, a short loop of gray (or some other color) cloth with "CAP" or "USCAP" on it that goes around the part of the epaulet that you can slide someone onto.  In fact, didn't CAP had something like that in the past for a short time?

So, has a new AF service coat been officially adopted?
Yes, CAP had a maroon epaulet band that was worn with the metal grade insignia for a short period. The AF decided it wasn't humiliating enough sufficient to distinguish CAP personnel from AF personnel.

[mikeylikey]

Perhaps the next CAP-USAF CC will be supportive of letting us go back to metal grade.  I too find it silly to throw on a grey slide!  Why can't we just do what we are doing now with the black army windbreaker that can be worn with the TPU?  You know......have our metal insignia plus a "CAP" cutout along with it.  No problem there.....as that was what the AF "MADE US DO". 

[Eagle400]

Yes, metal rank on the epaulets of the service dress coat would be very nice.  I think what CAP should do is wear the CAP cutouts on the lapels, and have metal rank on the epaulets.  I don't see the need to wear U.S. cutouts, especially when SDF's have a closer relationship to the military and wear distinctive cutouts of their own on their service dress uniforms. 

What I really detest is the color of CAP's epaulets and nametags for officers.  They should be blue.  Period.  If the Air Force was so keen on making CAP personnel stand out from AF personnel, why didn't they make both officers and cadets wear the grey epaulets and nametags?  This is something that puzzles me to this day.     

[mikeylikey]

^^  You have to keep the Cadets thinking they are part of teh AF team.  Thus the blue junk was left.  In reality, more often than not, a punk cadet will not easily pass themselves off as a AF CAPT, right? 

I think the "US" cutouts should stay.  I was sad to see them taken off the TPU too!  It was an AF "reward" for CAP's service to the US for more than 50 years.  It also makes sense, that as the AF auxiliary, we should wear them.  I guess you could make the point that since we are no longe rthe AF AUX except for AF missions they should come off.  I will leave that up to the lawyers to decide, as I am sure they will. 

Your point about SDF's having closer realtionships with the miltiary that is entirely incorrect!  They are State assetes, and ALLWAYS will be state assets, and NEVER FEDERALIZED.  THUS they wear the state cutouts.  CAP on the other hand is "occasionaly called into "FEDERAL SERVICE" each time they work on an AF assigned mission.  Same is true for the compensation benefits the members recieve if injured or killed on an AF assigned mission.

WE need to get more AF Assigned missions!  Who at NHQ needs to get on the ball to make that happen??

[Major Carrales]

Yes, metal rank on the epaulets of the service dress coat would be very nice.  I think what CAP should do is wear the CAP cutouts on the lapels, and have metal rank on the epaulets.  I don't see the need to wear U.S. cutouts, especially when SDF's have a closer relationship to the military and wear distinctive cutouts of their own on their service dress uniforms. 

What I really detest is the color of CAP's epaulets and nametags for officers.  They should be blue.  Period.  If the Air Force was so keen on making CAP personnel stand out from AF personnel, why didn't they make both officers and cadets wear the grey epaulets and nametags?  This is something that puzzles me to this day.     

I have no problem with gray shoulder mark (of US cut outs for that matter), it think gray is distinctive enough and maintains a CAP distinctive color scheme.  I don't see it changing...unless the CAP distinguishes itself in some major way.

This issue, of shoulder marks, is not in need of fixing.  The US Cutouts are a  kudos, in my opinion, to the continuing validity of CAP.  They are most likely a preceived "reward," as much as Maroon shoulder marks are a preceived "punishment." 

[MIKE]

I like how the CGAux does it, and also the RAFVR(T).  The CGAux has red and blue As on the metal insignia.  My windbreaker/lightweight blue jacket has gold bars with red As on the epaulets, as does my garrison cap.





In comparison the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve (Training)... Which are commissioned officers BTW, wear gold VR with a T underneath pins on the lapels of their service dress and pinned to standard RAF epaulet sleeves.



Now, we probably don't need to differentiate between appointed (red A) and elected (blue A) officers like the CGAux does.  Red As might stand out better and would be a nod to the red epaulets of old.  We could also go back to wearing CAP on the lapels of the service dress or perhaps keep the U.S. but with an A underneath for "Auxiliary" not America... Or wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets as before.

... And take all of this and put it under a more RAFVR(T)/ATC model.

[JarakMaldon]

If the Air Force was so keen on making CAP personnel stand out from AF personnel, why didn't they make both officers and cadets wear the grey epaulets and nametags?  This is something that puzzles me to this day.

I would assess the AF went with that because no rank insignia worn by cadets mirrors any insignia worn by AF personnel.  No cadet officer insignia has an AF counterpart, and the airman/NCO ranks are worn in a different fashion (metal) and in a different place (collar).  That would be difference enough to keep the blue on the cadet side of the house.

[Major Carrales]

I like how the CGAux does it, and also the RAFVR(T).  The CGAux has red and blue As on the metal insignia.  My windbreaker/lightweight blue jacket has gold bars with red As on the epaulets, as does my garrison cap.

I could live with this sort of thing, if not a "A" then the CAP shield or other moniker.

[mikeylikey]

Hmmm....I like the CG AUX rank insignia......that was a neat idea!  PErhaps we shoudl adopt something like that!  I also like the RAFVR(T) pins.  

[PHall]

Hey, the grey epaulets are much better then the maroon one's we had to wear after the AF gave us our smack down because of "He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named" little promotion.

Personal opinion - I can see senior members not being allowed to wear USAF style uniforms because of the recurring major uniform violations made by senior members.

Not saying that it will happen tomorrow, but I wouldn't be surprised either.

"We have met the enemy and they is us."

[mikeylikey]

I like how the CGAux does it, and also the RAFVR(T).  The CGAux has red and blue As on the metal insignia.  My windbreaker/lightweight blue jacket has gold bars with red As on the epaulets, as does my garrison cap.

I could live with this sort of thing, if not a "A" then the CAP shield or other moniker.

I always thought on the AF style coat we should wear the CAP shield in the same place the Army wears the branch insignia.  It would not only look "cool", but would be a distinctive mark. 

[JarakMaldon]

I could live with this sort of thing, if not a "A" then the CAP shield or other moniker.

IMO, CAP having its own, distinctive rank insignia isn't a bad idea.

[MIKE]

I like how the CGAux does it, and also the RAFVR(T).  The CGAux has red and blue As on the metal insignia.  My windbreaker/lightweight blue jacket has gold bars with red As on the epaulets, as does my garrison cap.

I could live with this sort of thing, if not a "A" then the CAP shield or other moniker.

The other option I considered was a Tri-prop worn in the same fashsion... If we can't take more of an Auxiliary with a capital "A" angle.

[JarakMaldon]

The other option I considered was a Tri-prop worn in the same fashsion

That would look pretty good, I'd think.  Can anyone photoshop up an image of what that may look like?

[Hawk200]

I think the "US" cutouts should stay.  I was sad to see them taken off the TPU too! 

The U.S. collar brass was linked to the Air Force uniform, not to CAP overall. The Air Force uniform is a known military uniform, and CAP is considered a component of the Air Force, at least for uniform purposes. The Air Force didn't say we could wear U.S. on all our uniforms, just on the Air Force variants.

The TPU wasn't a recognized military uniform, and that's probably why there is so much heated discussion about it. It wasn't a uniform with an entitlement to the same accoutrements as the Air Force one. The TPU uses pieces and parts from various military service uniforms, and that is another part of the problem, even if some people like the way it looks.

[Hawk200]

I could live with this sort of thing, if not a "A" then the CAP shield or other moniker.

IMO, CAP having its own, distinctive rank insignia isn't a bad idea.

Why? There's no reason to re-invent the wheel. It would just compound our problems. It would also be difficult to create something new and unique. I'd rather they spend the money on something more important than a study to create new insignia.

[SAR-EMT1]

I have no outright complaint with the grey epulets and nametag. - As long as the nametag doesnt say USCAP-  While I would like to see seniors 'back in blue' I would not support a CGAux style approach to hard rank.
Nor would I wish to see the US disappear from our lapels. It was given to us a a reward and in my opinion is one of our best things about our uniform.

And I want to thank both the Air Force and Congress for that.

[RogueLeader]

I could live with this sort of thing, if not a "A" then the CAP shield or other moniker.

IMO, CAP having its own, distinctive rank insignia isn't a bad idea.

We, by law, have the same insignia as of the AF.  So, if we went to CAP distinctive insignia, we would be in violation of Federal law.

[JarakMaldon]

We, by law, have the same insignia as of the AF.  So, if we went to CAP distinctive insignia, we would be in violation of Federal law.

I'm not quite following you here.  Are you talking about the rank insignia by itself, like the bars, oak leaves, eagles and stars alone?

Why? There's no reason to re-invent the wheel. It would just compound our problems. It would also be difficult to create something new and unique. I'd rather they spend the money on something more important than a study to create new insignia.

No reinvention of the wheel is necessary.  Really, CAP isn't broken by having the rank insignia that it does.  However, metal rank and blue slides seem to be some sort of national objective, for whatever reason.  Some form of distinctive rank insignia, that beyond-a-doubt won't be confused with any form of AF insignia, could bring about a return of said particulars.

But then, you'd have complains from certain people that CAP was no longer wearing "true" rank insignia.

Would any one uniform situation make everyone happy? I really doubt it.

[jason.pennington]

OK, this is really showing my lack of knowledge, but what does TPU stand for?

[Eagle400]

OK, this is really showing my lack of knowledge, but what does TPU stand for?

Tony Pineda Uniform.

It is called that because he was the one who came up with it.

I predict it will go away when general Pineda goes away also. 

[mikeylikey]

^^Doubtfull that it will go away!  Now that Vanguard owns the design and production rights, I would see an elimination of the AF style before the TPU. 

All in all the TPU is not a bad looking coat, although the silver braid really should not have been added.  Perhaps no braid would have been better.  Also......why can't military awards be worn on it, when I can wear my mil bling on a civilian sports jacket? 

[Hawk200]

No reinvention of the wheel is necessary.  Really, CAP isn't broken by having the rank insignia that it does.  However, metal rank and blue slides seem to be some sort of national objective, for whatever reason.  Some form of distinctive rank insignia, that beyond-a-doubt won't be confused with any form of AF insignia, could bring about a return of said particulars.

Alright, so what will that new rank insignia be? Keep in mind that if it's going to be distinctive, it cannot mirror any existing design. And since it's an issue, it must be something that would be feasible in metal.

BTW, are you willing to foot the cost on the development? Also, you'll have to explain to both the Air Force and the CAP membership why they need to change. I figure Congress might desire an explanation as well. No bets on the Congress part, but it wouldn't hurt to be prepared.

Since it will be distinctive rank insignia, you should probably go ahead and just create new rank names to go with it. Since the military won't recognize it, you shouldn't use the same rank titles.

Come to think of it, what reason would the Air Force have to maintain a subordinate organization with a rank structure different from it's own? There aren't many reasons out there.

Also, you state "Really, CAP isn't broken by having the rank insignia that it does". If it doesn't seem broken, then why break it?

Are you starting to see the issues of such an undertaking? Easier to stick what we have, and start listening to what Mommy tells us.

As far as the metal rank goes, it's not a National objective, it's a Pineda objective. One that he did an end run around the Air Force by creating a pseudo-Air Force uniform with pieces and parts from the military services. And since we now have a uniform with metal rank insignia on it, what kind of priority do you think Pineda is going to place on getting metal rank on the Air Force service coats? I'm betting not a whole lot, if any.

People may have gotten their metal rank, but they traded their integrity for it. Easy to understand why the Air Force doesn't have a lot of patience with us.

[RogueLeader]

We, by law, have the same insignia as of the AF.  So, if we went to CAP distinctive insignia, we would be in violation of Federal law.

I'm not quite following you here.  Are you talking about the rank insignia by itself, like the bars, oak leaves, eagles and stars alone?


But then, you'd have complains from certain people that CAP was no longer wearing "true" rank insignia.

Would any one uniform situation make everyone happy? I really doubt it.

The law requires us to wear the same insignia as the AF, it just does not carry any legal authority.  We may wear gold oak leaves, but that does not give us Majors' authority under the UCMJ.  It only denotes achievement in CAP.  In that sense, no one has "true" rank within CAP.  For those officers retired from AD carry their AD rank, but cannot exceed O-5, unless go as wing commander or higher.  I hope that helps.

[LtCol White]

Perhaps the next CAP-USAF CC will be supportive of letting us go back to metal grade.  I too find it silly to throw on a grey slide!  Why can't we just do what we are doing now with the black army windbreaker that can be worn with the TPU?  You know......have our metal insignia plus a "CAP" cutout along with it.  No problem there.....as that was what the AF "MADE US DO". 

I doubt we'll see metal rank on the coats again. Possible but prob not.

What WOULD work is take the blue epaulets with CAP on them and put those on both the USAF coat and the TPU coat. Use the same blue epaulets on the USAF shirts and the TPU shirts. Blue name tag for both shirts. Put CAP cutouts back on the USAF coat. The blue epaulets would be worn on all jackets, sweaters, etc for both uniforms.

Doing this would make both uniforms more similar. All insignia would be the same. USAF would be happy because no more metal rank on the TPU and TPU epaulets would have CAP on them and not look like Reg USAF ones. CAP members would be happy because grey would be gone. Then CAP promises to enforce the F*** out of uniform regs for wear of the USAF uniforms.

Just my 2 cents.

[ColonelJack]

Tony Pineda Uniform.

It is called that because he was the one who came up with it.

I predict it will go away when general Pineda goes away also. 

No, it most probably won't.  Not after all these SMs have spent the $160 a pop for one.  Including most (if not all) of the National Board, the NEC, and a whole lot of wing-level and lower officers.  You want to make a bunch of people very angry?  Tell 'em they're going to have to write that expense off.

Jack

[Eagle400]

Tony Pineda Uniform.

It is called that because he was the one who came up with it.

I predict it will go away when general Pineda goes away also. 

No, it most probably won't.  Not after all these SMs have spent the $160 a pop for one.  Including most (if not all) of the National Board, the NEC, and a whole lot of wing-level and lower officers.  You want to make a bunch of people very angry?  Tell 'em they're going to have to write that expense off.

Jack

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

[Major Carrales]

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

I have already spoken with USAF generals about this and they say they neither want to do anything about it and that they don't care.

[Eagle400]

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.     

I have already spoken with USAF generals about this and they say they neither want to do anything about it and that they don't care.

I will bet my life that those USAF generals are not in a position to make decisions that could affect any CAP uniform.  In fact, those generals probably have nothing to do with CAP.

[Major Carrales]

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.     

I have already spoken with USAF generals about this and they say they neither want to do anything about it and that they don't care.

I will bet my life that those USAF generals are not in a position to make decisions that could affect any CAP uniform.  In fact, those generals probably have nothing to do with CAP.

He reads this.  That's enough.

[jb512]

Perhaps the next CAP-USAF CC will be supportive of letting us go back to metal grade.  I too find it silly to throw on a grey slide!  Why can't we just do what we are doing now with the black army windbreaker that can be worn with the TPU?  You know......have our metal insignia plus a "CAP" cutout along with it.  No problem there.....as that was what the AF "MADE US DO". 

I doubt we'll see metal rank on the coats again. Possible but prob not.

What WOULD work is take the blue epaulets with CAP on them and put those on both the USAF coat and the TPU coat. Use the same blue epaulets on the USAF shirts and the TPU shirts. Blue name tag for both shirts. Put CAP cutouts back on the USAF coat. The blue epaulets would be worn on all jackets, sweaters, etc for both uniforms.

Doing this would make both uniforms more similar. All insignia would be the same. USAF would be happy because no more metal rank on the TPU and TPU epaulets would have CAP on them and not look like Reg USAF ones. CAP members would be happy because grey would be gone. Then CAP promises to enforce the F*** out of uniform regs for wear of the USAF uniforms.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't think there is an easy answer that everyone will agree on.  I wish we would have more standardization though.  I can think of at least 10 different uniforms that we wear, off the top of my head, and different insignia requirements for half.

[AlphaSigOU]

What I'd like to see done with some of our uniform combinations:

Dump the aviator grays. and make the corporate blues the official senior member uniform.

Modify the grooming standards slightly to allow neatly trimmed facial hair such as goatees and beards.

Bring back the CAP letters to the blue epaulets. It ain't hard, Vanguard.

Ditch the silver sleeve braid. Either replace it with AF blue or eliminate it completely.

Amscray with the blue and woodland BDUs. Get a more complementary solid color BDU to work with the new USAF ABUs.

Blue utilities: make 'em a little more distinctive than the blue flight suit. Instead of the flight suit name patch, why not dark blue CAP and name tapes above the slant pockets?

I know most of the above suggestions will be consigned to the proverbial trash heap, but that's what I think.

[RogueLeader]

What I'd like to see done with some of our uniform combinations:

Dump the aviator grays. and make the corporate blues the official senior member uniform.

Modify the grooming standards slightly to allow neatly trimmed facial hair such as goatees and beards.

Bring back the CAP letters to the blue epaulets. It ain't hard, Vanguard.

Ditch the silver sleeve braid. Either replace it with AF blue or eliminate it completely.

Amscray with the blue and woodland BDUs. Get a more complementary solid color BDU to work with the new USAF ABUs.

Blue utilities: make 'em a little more distinctive than the blue flight suit. Instead of the flight suit name patch, why not dark blue CAP and name tapes above the slant pockets?

I know most of the above suggestions will be consigned to the proverbial trash heap, but that's what I think.

That would seriously torq off many, many members.  I, for one, only have woodland BDU's and AF Blues.  No corporates.  And I'll be darned if I go to the corporates.  The AF said I can have AF style uniforms and I will.

[AlphaSigOU]

That would seriously torq off many, many members.  I, for one, only have woodland BDU's and AF Blues.  No corporates.  And I'll be darned if I go to the corporates.  The AF said I can have AF style uniforms and I will.

Exactly why I qualified my statement mentioning that most, if not all of my suggestions will be tossed.

Tags - MIKE

[RiverAux]

Under what law is CAP required to use "standard" military rank insignia?  I'm not advocating we change, but don't recall ever seeing any legal mandate that we use them either. 

[ColonelJack]

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

The Air Force has no say in our corporate uniforms.  None.  And the only real issue you bring up here that they might even remotely be concerned about is the blue epaulets -- which an embroidered "CAP" would fix to their satisfaction.  (Which, I think, is a very good idea whose time has come.)  As for the hard rank and silver braid, from every single thing I've read from AF -- here and in other places -- their attitude toward the corporate uniform is a big yawning "So what?" 

All I have found about the issue shows that the Air Force simply doesn't care about CAP corporate uniforms.  The corporate uniform is sufficiently different from AF uniforms to not be an issue to them.  (With the possible exception of the aforementioned blue epaulets, which can be fixed easily.)

I get it that several of us here don't like the corporate uniforms.  I get it that we're not all that thrilled about how they came into existence.  I even get it that some are concerned about possible repercussions.  But what I don't (still) get is this -- if the corporate uniforms are not an issue at all to the Air Force, why are they such an issue to some members of CAP?

But geez ... the uniform is here.  It is a part of CAP, existing in uniform regulations.  The Air Force does not care, figuring (rightly so) that they have far more important things to worry about.  And the corporate uniform is not required of any individual member.  If you are able to wear AF-style, do so their way and they'll be happy.  If you aren't able to wear AF-style, wear the corporate -- or the blazer -- or the aviation grays -- or the polo shirt if that's your preference. 

Please, though, let's stop pretending the Air Force gives a darn.  They don't.  They've said so. 

Jack

[ColonelJack]

Under what law is CAP required to use "standard" military rank insignia?  I'm not advocating we change, but don't recall ever seeing any legal mandate that we use them either. 

I don't think there's any "law" requiring CAP use standard military rank insignia.  It's more a matter of tradition, since such rank was approved back in the day when the organization was part of the Army Air Corps.  I don't think there's a need to change it, either.  Most people who recognize American uniforms can read such insignia quickly.  (By contrast, I have never understood those horn combinations used on many Fire Department uniforms -- I just can't remember how many horns make a captain, what a combination that looks like an asterisk means, etc.)  It's simple recognition, a quick and easy way to tell who holds what grade.

Probably why the CGAux uses the insignia with their own titles -- it still looks familiar enough to tell who's what.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

What I'd like to see done with some of our uniform combinations:

Dump the aviator grays. and make the corporate blues the official senior member uniform.

Modify the grooming standards slightly to allow neatly trimmed facial hair such as goatees and beards.

Bring back the CAP letters to the blue epaulets. It ain't hard, Vanguard.

Ditch the silver sleeve braid. Either replace it with AF blue or eliminate it completely.

Amscray with the blue and woodland BDUs. Get a more complementary solid color BDU to work with the new USAF ABUs.

Blue utilities: make 'em a little more distinctive than the blue flight suit. Instead of the flight suit name patch, why not dark blue CAP and name tapes above the slant pockets?

I know most of the above suggestions will be consigned to the proverbial trash heap, but that's what I think.

Great suggestions!  I like 'em all!  (Except maybe the one about dumping the aviator grays -- they're okay in their own way.)

Jack

[Hawk200]

Dump the aviator grays. and make the corporate blues the official senior member uniform.

Modify the grooming standards slightly to allow neatly trimmed facial hair such as goatees and beards.

If they went with one or the other, it would be more consistent. Three separate dress uniforms is unnecessary. And I think it's a little elitist to design a corporate uniform that only some people can wear, so allowing beards with the corporate is a good thing.

Bring back the CAP letters to the blue epaulets. It ain't hard, Vanguard.

If those same epaulets are used for blues, no problem. If you're going to have blue on one, and gray on the other, it's stupid, and a serious lack of uniformity. There are numerous people in CAP that didn't join to be Air Force officers, why are they so hell bent on looking like one?

Ditch the silver sleeve braid. Either replace it with AF blue or eliminate it completely.

I would buy that. Probably be easier and cheaper for the membership to eliminate it. Personally, I feel that our mess dress looks better than the Air Force's, with the dark blue braid. The AF ones look gaudy to me.

Amscray with the blue and woodland BDUs. Get a more complementary solid color BDU to work with the new USAF ABUs.

And create yet another uniform? People are going to think of our organization as schizophrenic. And I don't want to have buy another set of clothes. I don't mind changing some insignia, but having to get another combo together is a little too much.

Blue utilities: make 'em a little more distinctive than the blue flight suit. Instead of the flight suit name patch, why not dark blue CAP and name tapes above the slant pockets?

I don't see why we even have it . We have a utility uniform equivalent to the woodland BDU's now. The utility jumpsuit is unnecesary.

We need to eliminate some of our excessive uniforms, and start mirroring insignia placement across the board. The same color epaulets and nametags on all uniforms, the same color tapes on all BDU's (the navy blue tapes and rank would probably look fairly good on Woodlands), all the insignia with standardized placement, and patches on one BDU go in the same place as the other. No more of "Wear this thing here on this uniform, but wear it here on that uniform."

Let's standardize it all.

[Grumpy]

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

The Air Force has no say in our corporate uniforms.  None.  And the only real issue you bring up here that they might even remotely be concerned about is the blue epaulets -- which an embroidered "CAP" would fix to their satisfaction.  (Which, I think, is a very good idea whose time has come.)  As for the hard rank and silver braid, from every single thing I've read from AF -- here and in other places -- their attitude toward the corporate uniform is a big yawning "So what?" 

All I have found about the issue shows that the Air Force simply doesn't care about CAP corporate uniforms.  The corporate uniform is sufficiently different from AF uniforms to not be an issue to them.  (With the possible exception of the aforementioned blue epaulets, which can be fixed easily.)

I get it that several of us here don't like the corporate uniforms.  I get it that we're not all that thrilled about how they came into existence.  I even get it that some are concerned about possible repercussions.  But what I don't (still) get is this -- if the corporate uniforms are not an issue at all to the Air Force, why are they such an issue to some members of CAP?

But geez ... the uniform is here.  It is a part of CAP, existing in uniform regulations.  The Air Force does not care, figuring (rightly so) that they have far more important things to worry about.  And the corporate uniform is not required of any individual member.  If you are able to wear AF-style, do so their way and they'll be happy.  If you aren't able to wear AF-style, wear the corporate -- or the blazer -- or the aviation grays -- or the polo shirt if that's your preference. 

Please, though, let's stop pretending the Air Force gives a darn.  They don't.  They've said so. 

Jack

Right on Ol' Fearless Leader,

Brian B.

[CAP Producer]

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

The Air Force has no say in our corporate uniforms.  None.  And the only real issue you bring up here that they might even remotely be concerned about is the blue epaulets -- which an embroidered "CAP" would fix to their satisfaction.  (Which, I think, is a very good idea whose time has come.)  As for the hard rank and silver braid, from every single thing I've read from AF -- here and in other places -- their attitude toward the corporate uniform is a big yawning "So what?" 

All I have found about the issue shows that the Air Force simply doesn't care about CAP corporate uniforms.  The corporate uniform is sufficiently different from AF uniforms to not be an issue to them.  (With the possible exception of the aforementioned blue epaulets, which can be fixed easily.)

I get it that several of us here don't like the corporate uniforms.  I get it that we're not all that thrilled about how they came into existence.  I even get it that some are concerned about possible repercussions.  But what I don't (still) get is this -- if the corporate uniforms are not an issue at all to the Air Force, why are they such an issue to some members of CAP?

But geez ... the uniform is here.  It is a part of CAP, existing in uniform regulations.  The Air Force does not care, figuring (rightly so) that they have far more important things to worry about.  And the corporate uniform is not required of any individual member.  If you are able to wear AF-style, do so their way and they'll be happy.  If you aren't able to wear AF-style, wear the corporate -- or the blazer -- or the aviation grays -- or the polo shirt if that's your preference. 

Please, though, let's stop pretending the Air Force gives a darn.  They don't.  They've said so. 

Jack

Thank you Jack. That was very well said. Let's move on to something else now.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Tony Pineda Uniform.

It is called that because he was the one who came up with it.

I predict it will go away when general Pineda goes away also. 

No, it most probably won't.  Not after all these SMs have spent the $160 a pop for one.  Including most (if not all) of the National Board, the NEC, and a whole lot of wing-level and lower officers.  You want to make a bunch of people very angry?  Tell 'em they're going to have to write that expense off.

Jack

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

The General sought and received approval for the TPU. Officially, the AF takes no position on CAP corporate uniforms.  Un officially, TP was told the TPU was OK with Big Mother Blue.

[Eagle400]

Well, then it is safe to say that the TPU will last as long as there are people in the Air Force who are fine with it (and who are in a position to affect the future of the TPU). 

I have been told that there was an Air Force Lt Gen at the Pentagon who saw general Pineda in his TPU and had nothing but disdain for the uniform.  However, that general probably was not in a position to affect the future of the TPU.  Too bad, in my opinion.

You see, it's not that the Air Force approves of the TPU.  It's that there are a certain number of Air Force generals (who can affect the future of the TPU) who are fine with the uniform.  If Air Force Times did a story on the TPU and asked for reader input, you'd see comments that are worse than the ones written about the proposed new service dress.

I will bet that most Air Force personnel have no clue what the TPU is.  So it's not fair to say that the Air Force approves of the TPU.  The only way to find out if the Air Force approves of the uniform is to do a service-wide survey.         

[Hawk200]

If it's an established fact that the Air Force is OK with the TPU, then let's ditch the blazer combo. I've seen numerous security staff wearing the exact same outfit: navy blazer, grey slacks. Open it up to all personnel in CAP, not just a few that choose to shave.

Although, I'll never give up the Air Force blues, too much I'm able to wear on them. Not to mention, got way too many Air Force uniforms in the closet that I'd like to get a few more years out of.

[ColonelJack]

Well, then it is safe to say that the TPU will last as long as there are people in the Air Force who are fine with it (and who are in a position to affect the future of the TPU). 

I have been told that there was an Air Force Lt Gen at the Pentagon who saw general Pineda in his TPU and had nothing but disdain for the uniform.  However, that general probably was not in a position to affect the future of the TPU.  Too bad, in my opinion.

You see, it's not that the Air Force approves of the TPU.  It's that there are a certain number of Air Force generals (who can affect the future of the TPU) who are fine with the uniform.  If Air Force Times did a story on the TPU and asked for reader input, you'd see comments that are worse than the ones written about the proposed new service dress.

I will bet that most Air Force personnel have no clue what the TPU is.  So it's not fair to say that the Air Force approves of the TPU.  The only way to find out if the Air Force approves of the uniform is to do a service-wide survey.         

Okay, let's go through this once again.  By their own regulations, the Air Force cannot say anything about the corporate uniforms -- they can't say they like 'em, can't say they hate 'em, can't say anything -- and have it with force of policy.  Are there AF personnel who don't like the uniform?  Probably.  Does the Air Force have the authority or the power to do anything about it?  No.  Not a bit.

Most AF personnel don't know what the corporate uniform is and -- read this part carefully -- they do not care.  There's never going to be a service-wide survey because what the Auxiliary of the Air Force wears just is not a major point to worry about for the active-duty folks. 

The corporate uniform will last as long as Civil Air Patrol wants it to last.  The Air Force has NO say in the matter.  AF members may not appreciate the uniform on a personal basis, but that is only their opinions -- and those opinions are worth as much as anyone else's, and do not have the force of regulation or law behind them.

Can we move on now?  The uniform is here.  It is staying as long as CAP wants it to stay.  We might wish it otherwise, you and me, but we have as much say about it as the Air Force has ... repeat after me ... none at all.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

If it's an established fact that the Air Force is OK with the TPU, then let's ditch the blazer combo. I've seen numerous security staff wearing the exact same outfit: navy blazer, grey slacks. Open it up to all personnel in CAP, not just a few that choose to shave.

Although, I'll never give up the Air Force blues, too much I'm able to wear on them. Not to mention, got way too many Air Force uniforms in the closet that I'd like to get a few more years out of.

My friend, nobody wants anyone to give up the Air Force blues.  (Though, if we're honest with each other and ourselves, the AF would clobber our wearing their uniform before they say much about the corporate one.)  I can no longer wear my AF uniform, but I keep it for the day when I can once again.  Until then, when I am allowed, I will wear the corporate uniform.  It's close enough for me.

Jack

[Eagle400]

We might wish it otherwise, you and me, but we have as much say about it as the Air Force has ... repeat after me ... none at all.

Yes, and that would not be a problem for me if NHQ asked for member input before the TPU came out.

I hate how general Pineda never asks for membership input regarding new uniforms/uniform changes.  CAP may not be a democracy, but at least the Air Force has the sense to seek input from people in the field before instituting entire new uniforms.   

[LtCol White]

We might wish it otherwise, you and me, but we have as much say about it as the Air Force has ... repeat after me ... none at all.

Yes, and that would not be a problem for me if NHQ asked for member input before the TPU came out.

I hate how general Pineda never asks for membership input regarding new uniforms/uniform changes.  CAP may not be a democracy, but at least the Air Force has the sense to seek input from people in the field before instituting entire new uniforms.   

Quite true. While you will never please all, USAF came up with a prototype and then did a survey of anyone who wanted to participate to give their feedback on the proposal BEFORE it went into production for wear test. CAP is a MUCH smaller org than USAF so if they can do it, CAP certianly can do the same given our small number of members comparatively speaking.

[ColonelJack]

We might wish it otherwise, you and me, but we have as much say about it as the Air Force has ... repeat after me ... none at all.

Yes, and that would not be a problem for me if NHQ asked for member input before the TPU came out.

I hate how general Pineda never asks for membership input regarding new uniforms/uniform changes.  CAP may not be a democracy, but at least the Air Force has the sense to seek input from people in the field before instituting entire new uniforms.   

Granted, but as you also point out, there's nothing that requires NHQ to seek member input before a uniform or any other directive is implemented.  Would it be nice, a more member-friendly idea?  Certainly!!  Does NHQ have to do it?  Not if I read regulations correctly, they don't.

I'm not trying to be a smart [donkey] here, but consider:  by extension, this idea also would require member input before any other regulations are changed or anything new is considered.  And NHQ just doesn't do that.  (We can't be picky, having input here but not there.) 

CAP is not, as you say, a democracy.  Neither is the AF.  Yes, they have a uniform board that conducts field tests for new items, but in the end it's the boys and girls with stars on their shoulders and three sets of farts 'n darts on their hats who make the final decisions.  How else do you think McPeak's uniform monstrosity made it out of committee?  It might've been nice if Gen. Pineda had consulted with someone other than the NEC about the uniform idea, but he didn't.  And apparently he didn't have to.  Running the new uniform by AF was a courtesy, one he didn't have to do (but very wisely did) ... and all reports indicate the Air Force doesn't mind the new uniform one bit.

And the last time I looked, nobody was holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to buy the coroprate uniform.

Jack

[ColonelJack]

While you will never please all, USAF came up with a prototype and then did a survey of anyone who wanted to participate to give their feedback on the proposal BEFORE it went into production for wear test. CAP is a MUCH smaller org than USAF so if they can do it, CAP certianly can do the same given our small number of members comparatively speaking.

Truth be told, I'd like to see that done also.  There's certainly nothing wrong with member input via wear tests ... and in an organization like CAP, it would carry a lot more weight, since any new uniform items would have to be acquired at the members' own expense.  People vote with their wallets more than any other reason.

But even on active duty, the input from wear tests only goes so far.  I think you'll agree that if a certain AF Chief of Staff wants a certain uniform on his personnel, he's going to get it his way.  (Does the name McPeak ring a bell?  )  If the silly man had actually listened to the input from the field, AF -- and CAP -- would still be wearing the four-pocket, four-button, blue Army-style blouse today.

Jack

[Hawk200]

I'm not trying to be a smart [donkey] here, but consider:  by extension, this idea also would require member input before any other regulations are changed or anything new is considered.  And NHQ just doesn't do that.  (We can't be picky, having input here but not there.) 

That's not the way it works in the military I'm in. Not all reg changes get member input. If it's determined through legitimate study that something can be done safer, cheaper or in less time, then that manner is adopted. There are times when the only input is based on facts and risk assessments. Operations are far different than appearance.

Looking for input on things that will affect the appearance of the military is good leadership, and it takes into account the opinions of personnel. If people don't like a certain uniform, it will be obvious. Some people will refuse to wear it until it becomes mandatory, others will just separate to keep their own principles intact. Do you know how many people joined the Marines because their uniforms are some of the best looking ones in the US military? There are times when appearance is an issue to people, and they make choices based on their feelings in the matter.

Suggesting that all reg changes should go through membership is not practical, and in many cases can be harmful. One is apples, the other oranges.

[BillB]

The only problem with changing regulaations by NHQ, often the person writing the regulation doesn't know the program they are changing. This was most noticable in 39-1 and 52-16. Both are confusing as written. In 39-1 one example is placement of insignia on various uniforms. On 52-16 an example is in the CAC section where a long standing policy under the several older regulations had the CAC representatives elected or appointed, now it's just appointed. But units still try to elect their reps and cadets become unhappy when they find they can't.
Often regulations proposed by CAP members on higher headquarters reflect their opinions or egos. This is most evident in the 60 series regulations. Changes made by National also reflect fear of lawsuits, fear of accidents, and thinking that pilots should get bmore FAA ratings to be qualified pilots ignoring that many pilots with private licenses for example have thousands of hours compared to someone with a brand new commercial rating. This reduces the number of pilots available to some aircraft types or operations.

[Major Carrales]

Could you imagine the resulting meshegas if they had brought the idea of a new uniform up to the CAP Populace?  We are the most divided sector on the matter.  One half would vote it up, the other would vote it down.  Then we would get nowhere.

Then, if on side prevailed, the discussion here woudl be..."We didn't vote for that...all of us should have voted affirnatively on it for it to have passed."

Can't please everyone.

[LtCol White]

Could you imagine the resulting meshegas if they had brought the idea of a new uniform up to the CAP Populace?  We are the most divided sector on the matter.  One half would vote it up, the other would vote it down.  Then we would get nowhere.

Then, if on side prevailed, the discussion here woudl be..."We didn't vote for that...all of us should have voted affirnatively on it for it to have passed."

Can't please everyone.

Not necessary to get a vote for approval from membership. USAF didnt do this either. Solicit feedback as they did. Review it to see if any has merit and CONSIDER changes what would make sense that may not have been considered or realilzed during the design phase. Then proceed with wear testing as USAF is doing.

[Major Carrales]

Not necessary to get a vote for approval from membership. USAF didnt do this either. Solicit feedback as they did. Review it to see if any has merit and CONSIDER changes what would make sense that may not have been considered or realilzed during the design phase. Then proceed with wear testing as USAF is doing.

CONSIDER is a strage word.  Suppose the feedback is taken, and CONSIDERED.  Then the topic here would be one of "He's ignored us" instead of "he's making stuff up."  It's the kobayashi maru, no win situation for anyone.

Plus, as for wear tests in CAP, is that realistic?  I mean, we don't wear uniforms of a daily basis...unless you are me who runs CAP over three or four days a week in different Cities.  Much less a service coat.

[LtCol White]

Not necessary to get a vote for approval from membership. USAF didnt do this either. Solicit feedback as they did. Review it to see if any has merit and CONSIDER changes what would make sense that may not have been considered or realilzed during the design phase. Then proceed with wear testing as USAF is doing.

CONSIDER is a strage word.  Suppose the feedback is taken, and CONSIDERED.  Then the topic here would be one of "He's ignored us" instead of "he's making stuff up."  It's the kobayashi maru, no win situation for anyone.

Plus, as for wear tests in CAP, is that realistic?  I mean, we don't wear uniforms of a daily basis...unless you are me who runs CAP over three or four days a week in different Cities.  Much less a service coat.

Well, USAF could be acused of the same if they don't make changes based on their feedback. Eventhough we arent in uniform every day, a wear test program COULD be set up with personnel NHQ if it was desired. Its always possible.

[MIKE]

If I had my way the CAP distinctive uniforms and Corporate Uniform would be drastically reduced.

[LtCol White]

YUP

[jason.pennington]

I can wear a different uniform every meeting night of the month!  Never have to do laundry!

[LtCol White]

I can wear a different uniform every meeting night of the month!  Never have to do laundry!

* SMACK !! *

[Eagle400]

If I had my way the CAP distinctive uniforms and Corporate Uniform would be drastically reduced.

Me too.  I believe the TPU should have gray shoulder marks and nametags.  No more separating how the uniforms look because some general wants to play Air Force.  The focus should be on what the organization wants, not what one person wants.

I don't know what I'd like to see done to the other distinctive uniforms.  They look pretty good the way they are.      

[JCJ]

Tony Pineda Uniform.

It is called that because he was the one who came up with it.

I predict it will go away when general Pineda goes away also. 

No, it most probably won't.  Not after all these SMs have spent the $160 a pop for one.  Including most (if not all) of the National Board, the NEC, and a whole lot of wing-level and lower officers.  You want to make a bunch of people very angry?  Tell 'em they're going to have to write that expense off.

Jack

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

The General sought and received approval for the TPU. Officially, the AF takes no position on CAP corporate uniforms.  Un officially, TP was told the TPU was OK with Big Mother Blue.

In fact the few minor changes to it (change to CAP cutouts from US, adding "Civil Air Patrol" to the nametags, etc) were done to address a couple of lingering doubts from the AF on the uniform after their review.  I wouldn't be too surprised to see the TPU become the standard service uniform (summer & winter version), replacing the AF style service uniform for senior members and maybe even the grey & white combo.  I's like to see the commissioning braid be standard blue or dark grey, otherwise I think it's a pretty sharp uniform.

[SARMedTech]

I know this is spitting in the wind, but the AF would do well to take a page from the USCGs playbook. They are proud of their Auxiliary and the AD "Gold Side" are secure enough that they find it sufficient to have different color buttons and writing on the ODU ball cap. We keep talking about Pineda's attitude toward the membership, lets start talking about Mama Blue. IMHO if we are good enough to get up in the middle of the night and go looking for ELTs and downed aircraft, we are good enough to wear the uniform of our parent service. The USCG Aux is proud to wear the uniform of their parent service and it shows in their morale, recruiting, etc.

Just this newbies opinion.

[Eagle400]

I know this is spitting in the wind, but the AF would do well to take a page from the USCGs playbook. They are proud of their Auxiliary and the AD "Gold Side" are secure enough that they find it sufficient to have different color buttons and writing on the ODU ball cap. We keep talking about Pineda's attitude toward the membership, lets start talking about Mama Blue. IMHO if we are good enough to get up in the middle of the night and go looking for ELTs and downed aircraft, we are good enough to wear the uniform of our parent service. The USCG Aux is proud to wear the uniform of their parent service and it shows in their morale, recruiting, etc.

Just this newbies opinion.

This is one reason I believe the USCG Auxiliary is senior to CAP.  There is a much better relationship between the USCG Aux and the USCG than with CAP and the USAF.  I also believe that morale is higher among CG Auxiliary personnel because there is no identity crisis in the organization, and there are fewer uniform differences.     

[JCJ]

I know this is spitting in the wind, but the AF would do well to take a page from the USCGs playbook. They are proud of their Auxiliary and the AD "Gold Side" are secure enough that they find it sufficient to have different color buttons and writing on the ODU ball cap. We keep talking about Pineda's attitude toward the membership, lets start talking about Mama Blue. IMHO if we are good enough to get up in the middle of the night and go looking for ELTs and downed aircraft, we are good enough to wear the uniform of our parent service. The USCG Aux is proud to wear the uniform of their parent service and it shows in their morale, recruiting, etc.

Just this newbies opinion.

This is one reason I believe the USCG Auxiliary is senior to CAP.  There is a much better relationship between the USCG Aux and the USCG than with CAP and the USAF.  I also believe that morale is higher among CG Auxiliary personnel because there is no identity crisis in the organization, and there are fewer uniform differences.     

Well, it's apples and oranges, too.  The USCG peacetime mission is largely law enforcement, SAR and the like - which their aux is clearly close to.  They do a better job of having individual auxies fill in for AD sailors which we really don't do (except for chaplains).  Because the missions are so similar, they fit together well which I believe may foster a closer relationship.  CGAUX also has no weight standards for uniform wear, so there are individuals who can wear their uniform that couldn't wear our USAF style.  I'll leave it to you to decide  if you think that this is because the value of the cg auxies are so much that they will tolerate a seriously non-military appearance in their uniform, or because the USCG in general is a less "military" community than USAF and doesn't care as much about a military appearance (yes I know that they are a uniformed military service, but in peacetime they are DHS, not DOD).

Although they do a great job on the water, the CG Aux has tried for many years to have an effective aviation presence, largely without widespread success.  In part, this is because they are dependant on member-owned aircraft.  On the other hand, I shudder to think about a CAP crew launching a boat.

Also, the USCG is so chronically underfunded that they welcome with enthusiasm any help the cgaux can give.

The politics of the cgaux are interesting as well.  Different from CAP, but just as interesting.

The mission of the majority of the USAF is to get fire & steel on target - on time, to get troops & tanks in badguy land where and when needed, & keep beans & bullets coming to those troops - often on the other side of the world.  CAP really doesn't do any of that.  A large part of CAP's value to the USAF is to handle the non-combat things that the USAF is required by statute to do but doesn't necessarily want or have the resources for (i.e inland domestic SAR) and as a pipeline for airmen & officers (cadet program).  We're just now starting to do some support to the AF warfighters (aerial photo's, target simulation, etc) and we're doing it well.  Many of our newer air force assigned missions actually support other federal agencies (EPA, DHS, FEMA).  I wouldn't expect our relationship with the parts of the mainstream USAF to be as close as the cg-cgaux because the missions are largely different.  The uscg is also much smaller than the USAF and most coast guardsmen have worked with auxies at some point in their career.  Not necessarily true for USAF.

What I have seen is that the relationship between CAP and the parts of the USAF who know who we are (and to who we bring value) is very good.  With rare exception, the USAF guys who we work with regard us very highly.  Unfortunately, alot of the USAF never sees us due to the mission discrepancy.

There's often discussion that we should be a full-time aux, like the cgaux.  Maybe not such a good idea for us.  Aside from the major change in federal legislation that would be required to make this happen, you'd lose many state and local missions that the flexibility of corporate status allows us to do now.  In fact, because of the differences above I  worry that there would not be enough for a full-time, "federal mission only" AF auxiliary to do to justify it's continued existence.

I would very much like to see more cooperative work between CAP and cgaux.

[mikeylikey]

^  We could have been the "true AF AUX" when the laws were rewritten a few years ago.  If we want a change......go talk to you REPS in DC.  Perhaps one day we will be the "United States Air Force Auxiliary".  Most likely in 60 years when they open up that time capsule we planted at Maxwell.  Once they open up that tin can and see "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" they will be like "what the crap is U S CAP?

Just wishful thinking on my part I guess.  I do think we will end up loosing the AF style uniform because a member decides to play General one day.  Not sure when.....but it will happen.

[SAR-EMT1]

Tony Pineda Uniform.

It is called that because he was the one who came up with it.

I predict it will go away when general Pineda goes away also. 

No, it most probably won't.  Not after all these SMs have spent the $160 a pop for one.  Including most (if not all) of the National Board, the NEC, and a whole lot of wing-level and lower officers.  You want to make a bunch of people very angry?  Tell 'em they're going to have to write that expense off.

Jack

Well, what if next year the Air Force decides it's had enough with the TPU and decides to give it the axe?  It is possible, you know.  Even though it is a corporate uniform, it includes distinctive Air Force epaulets, hard rank insignia, and silver braids.  If the Air Force decides it's had enough with the problems created by the TPU, CAP wouldn't be able to anything.    

The General sought and received approval for the TPU. Officially, the AF takes no position on CAP corporate uniforms.  Un officially, TP was told the TPU was OK with Big Mother Blue.

In fact the few minor changes to it (change to CAP cutouts from US, adding "Civil Air Patrol" to the nametags, etc) were done to address a couple of lingering doubts from the AF on the uniform after their review.  I wouldn't be too surprised to see the TPU become the standard service uniform (summer & winter version), replacing the AF style service uniform for senior members and maybe even the grey & white combo.  I's like to see the commissioning braid be standard blue or dark grey, otherwise I think it's a pretty sharp uniform.

I absolutely SHUDDER to think of the TPU becoming the 'standard' dress uniform.

[Grumpy]

You know, no matter you do, you're not going to get everybody to agree on this subject.  You're beating a dead horse.

BRIAN B.

[Hawk200]

I absolutely SHUDDER to think of the TPU becoming the 'standard' dress uniform.

As do I.

[JCJ]

You know, no matter you do, you're not going to get everybody to agree on this subject.  You're beating a dead horse.

BRIAN B.

[sandman]

I like how the CGAux does it, and also the RAFVR(T).  The CGAux has red and blue As on the metal insignia.  My windbreaker/lightweight blue jacket has gold bars with red As on the epaulets, as does my garrison cap.





In comparison the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve (Training)... Which are commissioned officers BTW, wear gold VR with a T underneath pins on the lapels of their service dress and pinned to standard RAF epaulet sleeves.



Now, we probably don't need to differentiate between appointed (red A) and elected (blue A) officers like the CGAux does.  Red As might stand out better and would be a nod to the red epaulets of old.  We could also go back to wearing CAP on the lapels of the service dress or perhaps keep the U.S. but with an A underneath for "Auxiliary" not America... Or wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets as before.

... And take all of this and put it under a more RAFVR(T)/ATC model.

Well, I can't help but to dig up old topics 

Another suggestion, and it's not quite the equine flogging one might think, is to have another competent manufacturer create insignia with the CAP tri-prop emblem similar to the EMS rank insignia as seen in this link:

EMS Rank Insignia

[Grumpy]

I like how the CGAux does it, and also the RAFVR(T).  The CGAux has red and blue As on the metal insignia.  My windbreaker/lightweight blue jacket has gold bars with red As on the epaulets, as does my garrison cap.





In comparison the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve (Training)... Which are commissioned officers BTW, wear gold VR with a T underneath pins on the lapels of their service dress and pinned to standard RAF epaulet sleeves.



Now, we probably don't need to differentiate between appointed (red A) and elected (blue A) officers like the CGAux does.  Red As might stand out better and would be a nod to the red epaulets of old.  We could also go back to wearing CAP on the lapels of the service dress or perhaps keep the U.S. but with an A underneath for "Auxiliary" not America... Or wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets as before.

... And take all of this and put it under a more RAFVR(T)/ATC model.

Well, I can't help but to dig up old topics 

Another suggestion, and it's not quite the equine flogging one might think, is to have another competent manufacturer create insignia with the CAP tri-prop emblem similar to the EMS rank insignia as seen in this link:

EMS Rank Insignia

It looks sharp but you know our parent organization won't go for it because from a short distance away we would look like the active duty dudes.  Plus some individual would pull some stupid stunt and ruin it for everyone else.  Just like they did so many long years ago.

[SaBeR33]

I doubt we'll see metal rank on the coats again. Possible but prob not.

What WOULD work is take the blue epaulets with CAP on them and put those on both the USAF coat and the TPU coat. Use the same blue epaulets on the USAF shirts and the TPU shirts. Blue name tag for both shirts. Put CAP cutouts back on the USAF coat. The blue epaulets would be worn on all jackets, sweaters, etc for both uniforms.

Doing this would make both uniforms more similar. All insignia would be the same. USAF would be happy because no more metal rank on the TPU and TPU epaulets would have CAP on them and not look like Reg USAF ones. CAP members would be happy because grey would be gone. Then CAP promises to enforce the F*** out of uniform regs for wear of the USAF uniforms.

Just my 2 cents.

I could live with your suggestion since I loathe the idea of having the blue AF epaulets on the TPU instead of simply using the grey epaulets which were already available. If your suggestion is heeded then we'll be returning to the same epaulet style we had when I first joined as a cadet, epaulets which were subsequently replaced by the "Berry boards." I still have some of the original blue epaulets that another member gave to me since he no longer wanted them as they had become obsolete .

[sandman]

Well, I can't help but to dig up old topics 

Another suggestion, and it's not quite the equine flogging one might think, is to have another competent manufacturer create insignia with the CAP tri-prop emblem similar to the EMS rank insignia as seen in this link:

EMS Rank Insignia

Sorry, quick tangent off topic (but r/t uniforms).

Okay, how many of you EMT's/Paramedics are thinking of using these on your uniforms (if not already using)?? 

Here's another uniform item suggestion if you hadn't already considered it (from NAEMT):

Lighthouse Uniform: Uniforms for EMS

EMS Striping / Certification

Comprehensive Sleeve Strip List

No replies necessary, just a public service announcement for those of you who are EMS qualified!

v/r
Sandman

[JayT]

That's funny, because my local ambulance company has been rocking Class A's for as long as I can remember.

I work for a private, so the only uniform we wear is our duty uniform.

[stratoflyer]

http://catalog.lighthouseuniform.com/ems/

Those guys look like airline pilots.

And on a side note, the pic of the guy "holding" the link box on the left side of the uniformed fellers, somehow doesn't look right. 

[ThorntonOL]

where can you get the blues service coat for seniors?

[SJFedor]

And on a side note, the pic of the guy "holding" the link box on the left side of the uniformed fellers, somehow doesn't look right. 

A song about placing junk in a square or rectangular container comes to mind....

[Major Carrales]

On the EMT dress uniform.

I would say that they see to be taken seriously and feel that having a dress unifrom rather than a pure field one would achieve that.  I have to agree.

The distinctive marking might look bizzare, but no more so than those first time you see a Firefighter's Dress uniform or chief with his "oak leaf" scrambled eggs on an old style service cap (of the time that look like a legionaire's cap which was similar to the style worn by American soliders circa the Spanish-American war)

Let's not make fun.

[MIKE]

Topic or lock.

[jb512]

On topic, yes our uniforms look silly, especially when there are 9,453 variations.  If we wear AF uniforms, we have to abide by their rulings so we don't look like the real thing.  The TPU is a good alternative, but is not always cost effective compared to free AF stuff.  If it was cheaper and we leaned more toward it as our main uniform then we could make in comparable to the real military, police, fire, ems, etc.

There is no easy answer other than just buying a TPU jacket and sucking it up if you want to look semi-real.

[cadet zimmerman]

NHQ is considering makeing the "cutouts" say USCAP they will have a meeting on it this spring is wat i was told by NHQ

[Cecil DP]

NHQ is considering makeing the "cutouts" say USCAP they will have a meeting on it this spring is wat i was told by NHQ

And this will last until they sell 10,000  and than National will issue an ICL saying it was a stupid idea or never authorized.

[AlphaSigOU]

NHQ is considering makeing the "cutouts" say USCAP they will have a meeting on it this spring is wat i was told by NHQ.

You got bad RUMINT - that ain't gonna happen. The era of 'U.S. CAP' went away with HWSRN. Either U.S. for AF-style or CAP for the corporates. Not a combination of both. We haven't hacked off Ma Blue in years to deserve such punishment.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

If anything, maybe there could be a separate shoulder mark for the AF service coat -- one that may not say "CAP" on it, but is gray and definitely doesn't have the field-grade and general-grade lines on it.

Outside of the color difference, the shirt epaulet on the service coat looks like someone made a mistake -- or didn't have metal grade to put on the epaulets, so in a pinch slid the shoulder marks on.

Another idea would be to make a plain gray mark for the service coat with either "CAP" or the prop-in-triangle insigne that would allow for metal rank to be pinned on.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I have seen the USCG Aux officers with their little "A's" and never thought such an isea would work with us.  But, I'm always open to new ideas, and I have to admit the little "Star of Life" doesn't look too bad on the metal rank.  Putting a little 3-bladed prop on the rank just might work for us.

Maybe a metal "CAP" cutout halfway up the epaulet too, like we wear on the Army outerwear gear. 

[Eclipse]

NHQ is considering makeing the "cutouts" say USCAP they will have a meeting on it this spring is wat i was told by NHQ

By whom, Willie the Groundskeeper?  That's the most off-base "rumor" I've ever seen here - as stated they just reversed and removed the US CAP nonsense compliments of HWSRN.