SERVICE COAT INSIGNIA

[jason.pennington]

I know everyone just can't get enough uniform changes for one year, but as I was wearing my service coat, I could not help but wonder how dumb I looked.  We must be the only organization that wears shoulder sleeves on our jackets.  As you know, the sleeves say CAP, but our lapels say US.  This is just dumb, in my opinion.  When I was a cadet, seniors had the metal insignia on their jackets and CAP on the lapels -- sort of like the corporate coat today.  Why did we change it?  I wish we could go back.  Police departments and fire departments wear metal insignia on their coats and they are not confused with any military service.

Or maybe we should have USCAP cutouts on our lapels!!  Just get away from the shoulder sleeves on the jackets.

[RogueLeader]

To put it simply: the AF said no to metal rank.  we then had to go to the cloth epaulets.

[JarakMaldon]

Why did we change it?

As I understand, it was a "punishment" for the transgressions of a certain national commander.  Having been in grade school at the time, I am not entirely certain on that.

I wish we could go back.

So did the current national commander.  Since the AF said "no way," along came the TPU.  The chief reason for its creation, cited by the boss himself, was to get the metal rank and blue epaulets back.

Police departments and fire departments wear metal insignia on their coats and they are not confused with any military service.

Very true, but the uniforms of PDs and FDs are very different from any military uniform.  The uniform of the CAP is very similar to the uniform of the Air Force.  Since the AF wants to be absolutely sure that people can tell CAP and AF personnel apart, you have grey slides.

Should CAP adopt the new Air Force service coat, you may see the gray go away.  The epaulets on that coat are partially sewn down and would prohibit anything being slid on there.  I am sure, however, a way will be found to incorporate an obvious CAP indicator.  I assess it will be something like the Army's leaders identification insignia, a short loop of gray (or some other color) cloth with "CAP" or "USCAP" on it that goes around the part of the epaulet that you can slide someone onto.  In fact, didn't CAP had something like that in the past for a short time?

[arajca]

Why did we change it?

As I understand, it was a "punishment" for the transgressions of a certain national commander.  Having been in grade school at the time, I am not entirely certain on that.

Yep. Let no more be mentioned about He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named.

I wish we could go back.

So did the current national commander.  Since the AF said "no way," along came the TPU.  The chief reason for its creation, cited by the boss himself, was to get the metal rank and blue epaulets back.

Along with providing a more military-looking uniform for those who cannot wear the AF uniforms.

Police departments and fire departments wear metal insignia on their coats and they are not confused with any military service.

Very true, but the uniforms of PDs and FDs are very different from any military uniform.  The uniform of the CAP is very similar to the uniform of the Air Force.  Since the AF wants to be absolutely sure that people can tell CAP and AF personnel apart, you have grey slides.

Don't forget the fire and police folks usually wear a large piece of metal on their chest to identify themselves as Fire or Police.

Should CAP adopt the new Air Force service coat, you may see the gray go away.  The epaulets on that coat are partially sewn down and would prohibit anything being slid on there.  I am sure, however, a way will be found to incorporate an obvious CAP indicator.  I assess it will be something like the Army's leaders identification insignia, a short loop of gray (or some other color) cloth with "CAP" or "USCAP" on it that goes around the part of the epaulet that you can slide someone onto.  In fact, didn't CAP had something like that in the past for a short time?

So, has a new AF service coat been officially adopted?
Yes, CAP had a maroon epaulet band that was worn with the metal grade insignia for a short period. The AF decided it wasn't humiliating enough sufficient to distinguish CAP personnel from AF personnel.

[mikeylikey]

Perhaps the next CAP-USAF CC will be supportive of letting us go back to metal grade.  I too find it silly to throw on a grey slide!  Why can't we just do what we are doing now with the black army windbreaker that can be worn with the TPU?  You know......have our metal insignia plus a "CAP" cutout along with it.  No problem there.....as that was what the AF "MADE US DO". 

[Eagle400]

Yes, metal rank on the epaulets of the service dress coat would be very nice.  I think what CAP should do is wear the CAP cutouts on the lapels, and have metal rank on the epaulets.  I don't see the need to wear U.S. cutouts, especially when SDF's have a closer relationship to the military and wear distinctive cutouts of their own on their service dress uniforms. 

What I really detest is the color of CAP's epaulets and nametags for officers.  They should be blue.  Period.  If the Air Force was so keen on making CAP personnel stand out from AF personnel, why didn't they make both officers and cadets wear the grey epaulets and nametags?  This is something that puzzles me to this day.     

[mikeylikey]

^^  You have to keep the Cadets thinking they are part of teh AF team.  Thus the blue junk was left.  In reality, more often than not, a punk cadet will not easily pass themselves off as a AF CAPT, right? 

I think the "US" cutouts should stay.  I was sad to see them taken off the TPU too!  It was an AF "reward" for CAP's service to the US for more than 50 years.  It also makes sense, that as the AF auxiliary, we should wear them.  I guess you could make the point that since we are no longe rthe AF AUX except for AF missions they should come off.  I will leave that up to the lawyers to decide, as I am sure they will. 

Your point about SDF's having closer realtionships with the miltiary that is entirely incorrect!  They are State assetes, and ALLWAYS will be state assets, and NEVER FEDERALIZED.  THUS they wear the state cutouts.  CAP on the other hand is "occasionaly called into "FEDERAL SERVICE" each time they work on an AF assigned mission.  Same is true for the compensation benefits the members recieve if injured or killed on an AF assigned mission.

WE need to get more AF Assigned missions!  Who at NHQ needs to get on the ball to make that happen??

[Major Carrales]

Yes, metal rank on the epaulets of the service dress coat would be very nice.  I think what CAP should do is wear the CAP cutouts on the lapels, and have metal rank on the epaulets.  I don't see the need to wear U.S. cutouts, especially when SDF's have a closer relationship to the military and wear distinctive cutouts of their own on their service dress uniforms. 

What I really detest is the color of CAP's epaulets and nametags for officers.  They should be blue.  Period.  If the Air Force was so keen on making CAP personnel stand out from AF personnel, why didn't they make both officers and cadets wear the grey epaulets and nametags?  This is something that puzzles me to this day.     

I have no problem with gray shoulder mark (of US cut outs for that matter), it think gray is distinctive enough and maintains a CAP distinctive color scheme.  I don't see it changing...unless the CAP distinguishes itself in some major way.

This issue, of shoulder marks, is not in need of fixing.  The US Cutouts are a  kudos, in my opinion, to the continuing validity of CAP.  They are most likely a preceived "reward," as much as Maroon shoulder marks are a preceived "punishment." 

[MIKE]

I like how the CGAux does it, and also the RAFVR(T).  The CGAux has red and blue As on the metal insignia.  My windbreaker/lightweight blue jacket has gold bars with red As on the epaulets, as does my garrison cap.





In comparison the Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve (Training)... Which are commissioned officers BTW, wear gold VR with a T underneath pins on the lapels of their service dress and pinned to standard RAF epaulet sleeves.



Now, we probably don't need to differentiate between appointed (red A) and elected (blue A) officers like the CGAux does.  Red As might stand out better and would be a nod to the red epaulets of old.  We could also go back to wearing CAP on the lapels of the service dress or perhaps keep the U.S. but with an A underneath for "Auxiliary" not America... Or wear CAP cutouts on the epaulets as before.

... And take all of this and put it under a more RAFVR(T)/ATC model.

[JarakMaldon]

If the Air Force was so keen on making CAP personnel stand out from AF personnel, why didn't they make both officers and cadets wear the grey epaulets and nametags?  This is something that puzzles me to this day.

I would assess the AF went with that because no rank insignia worn by cadets mirrors any insignia worn by AF personnel.  No cadet officer insignia has an AF counterpart, and the airman/NCO ranks are worn in a different fashion (metal) and in a different place (collar).  That would be difference enough to keep the blue on the cadet side of the house.

[Major Carrales]

I like how the CGAux does it, and also the RAFVR(T).  The CGAux has red and blue As on the metal insignia.  My windbreaker/lightweight blue jacket has gold bars with red As on the epaulets, as does my garrison cap.

I could live with this sort of thing, if not a "A" then the CAP shield or other moniker.

[mikeylikey]

Hmmm....I like the CG AUX rank insignia......that was a neat idea!  PErhaps we shoudl adopt something like that!  I also like the RAFVR(T) pins.  

[PHall]

Hey, the grey epaulets are much better then the maroon one's we had to wear after the AF gave us our smack down because of "He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named" little promotion.

Personal opinion - I can see senior members not being allowed to wear USAF style uniforms because of the recurring major uniform violations made by senior members.

Not saying that it will happen tomorrow, but I wouldn't be surprised either.

"We have met the enemy and they is us."

[mikeylikey]

I like how the CGAux does it, and also the RAFVR(T).  The CGAux has red and blue As on the metal insignia.  My windbreaker/lightweight blue jacket has gold bars with red As on the epaulets, as does my garrison cap.

I could live with this sort of thing, if not a "A" then the CAP shield or other moniker.

I always thought on the AF style coat we should wear the CAP shield in the same place the Army wears the branch insignia.  It would not only look "cool", but would be a distinctive mark. 

[JarakMaldon]

I could live with this sort of thing, if not a "A" then the CAP shield or other moniker.

IMO, CAP having its own, distinctive rank insignia isn't a bad idea.

[MIKE]

I like how the CGAux does it, and also the RAFVR(T).  The CGAux has red and blue As on the metal insignia.  My windbreaker/lightweight blue jacket has gold bars with red As on the epaulets, as does my garrison cap.

I could live with this sort of thing, if not a "A" then the CAP shield or other moniker.

The other option I considered was a Tri-prop worn in the same fashsion... If we can't take more of an Auxiliary with a capital "A" angle.

[JarakMaldon]

The other option I considered was a Tri-prop worn in the same fashsion

That would look pretty good, I'd think.  Can anyone photoshop up an image of what that may look like?

[Hawk200]

I think the "US" cutouts should stay.  I was sad to see them taken off the TPU too! 

The U.S. collar brass was linked to the Air Force uniform, not to CAP overall. The Air Force uniform is a known military uniform, and CAP is considered a component of the Air Force, at least for uniform purposes. The Air Force didn't say we could wear U.S. on all our uniforms, just on the Air Force variants.

The TPU wasn't a recognized military uniform, and that's probably why there is so much heated discussion about it. It wasn't a uniform with an entitlement to the same accoutrements as the Air Force one. The TPU uses pieces and parts from various military service uniforms, and that is another part of the problem, even if some people like the way it looks.

[Hawk200]

I could live with this sort of thing, if not a "A" then the CAP shield or other moniker.

IMO, CAP having its own, distinctive rank insignia isn't a bad idea.

Why? There's no reason to re-invent the wheel. It would just compound our problems. It would also be difficult to create something new and unique. I'd rather they spend the money on something more important than a study to create new insignia.

[SAR-EMT1]

I have no outright complaint with the grey epulets and nametag. - As long as the nametag doesnt say USCAP-  While I would like to see seniors 'back in blue' I would not support a CGAux style approach to hard rank.
Nor would I wish to see the US disappear from our lapels. It was given to us a a reward and in my opinion is one of our best things about our uniform.

And I want to thank both the Air Force and Congress for that.