Obtaining IFR rating in CAP

[SJFedor]

CAPR 60-1 Feb 2008

3-9 Requirements for CAP Mission Check Pilots and CAP Mission pilots

a. All mission check pilots must be CAP members and current qualified SAR/DR mission pilots.

So, no, TMP can NOT be Mission Check Pilots.

OK.

I am a SAR/DR Mission Pilot.  Newly minted.

What is the definition of a "mission sortie"?

I have over 25 A9 maintenance flight mission sorties and/or A15 O-flight mission sorties.   But I never flew a SAR/DR mission or SAREX except as a trainee.  Can I qualify as a mission check pilot in meeting the requirement for 25 mission sorties?

Since your appointment as a MCP would be done by the Wing/CC or his desginee (DOV), and they have the discretion as to whether or not they wanna appoint you (not automatic), I would say that, by the straight definition, yes, you have 25 "mission" sorties, however, they're not related to the type of mission activities you'd be evaluating as a MCP, so they would probably pass on you until you had experience relevant to the position.

[SJFedor]

You are a PILOT on a transport mission.  You are not a "Mission Pilot".

By your logic, SAR/DR mission pilots aren't "mission pilots" either, they're PILOTS on SAR/DR missions. 

A "mission pilot" is any CAP Pilot who is authorized to fly CAP aircraft on a USAF-directed mission, period.  Both Transport Mission Pilots and SAR/DR Mission Pilots are therefore "mission pilots".  If John Salvador wants the term to be more specific, he's got the tools at his disposal to do so; he has not availed himself of these as yet.

As I said, TMPs are not limited to "transport missions"; they may also fly highbird sorties.  In any event, a TMP is, in most cases, a pilot short of the 175 hrs PIC required to be a SAR/DR Mission Pilot Trainee.

And even if they WERE limited to only "transport missions", it's not unreasonable for such a mission to require flight in less-than-VFR conditions, and therefore, an instrument rating would enhance a TMP's usefulness. Instrument training should be permitted on those grounds alone--and, in fact, IT IS.

But that's beside the point, really. It's long been my opinion that all CAP pilots should be trained to the Commercial/Instrument level if they aren't already.  Those two tickets make one a sharper, more competent pilot.

Others have since used other logic to defeat this particular idea, but just for gits and shiggles, I've submitted a question to the KB under Stan/Eval for NHQ's read on the subject, though I know what they're going to say, as they're tightening it up in the 60-1 draft.

[DG]

As I said, TMPs are not limited to "transport missions"; they may also fly highbird sorties. 

Transport Mission Pilot previously was a rating which allowed a pilot to fly into and out of a mission base.

That way s/he could fly an a/c into a SAREX, or a real mission for that matter, and do training for mission pilot, or otherwise perform as a mission pilot trainee in the mission.

Maintenance flights and repositioning flights were flown as C mission symbol flights.  Any CAP plot was capable of flying those sorties.

Now under the current scheme, transport mission pilots may fly into and out of a mission base, and also now are flying A9 maintenance flights.

I don't see how a transport mission pilot properly may be released for a mission sortie tasked as high bird in the mission.

[Short Field]

Here is the authorization for TMPs to fly High Bird:
CAPR 60-3 2-3o(3) Note 2: On authorized ES missions TMPs can only:
• Transport Emergency Services qualified CAP members required for an authorized mission
• Ferry aircraft required for an authorized ES mission
• Fly "high bird" communications sorties on an authorized ES mission
• Current and qualified FAA private pilots may transport parts and equipment owned by CAP or a CAP member to a mission base or staging area
• Current and qualified FAA commercial pilots may transport parts and equipment not owned by CAP

Now for the real issue on using TMPs:  A TMP is not required to be a MS or a MO.  They are not required to have any ES training outside of GES - this includes Basic Communications User Training.  IMHO, that means they can not be the Mission Commander (MC) on a High Bird mission and you must have a qualified MO along to be the MC and handle all the CAP communications.  Of course a TMP who is also a qualified MO could be the MC.

 

[DG]

Thank you, Short Field!

[KyCAP]

All, to be clear, I agree that the the TMP should not be the sole person on board of a "Highbird" sortie UNLESS they are carrying an airborne repeater or are fully qualified to execute a communications role effectively.   I personally would prefer a BCUT/MRO/MO "looking" person.   

It can be done single pilot tracking MANY assets in the field.  I know personally know that it can be done ...  For those that care the regulation just referred to goes to the core of the FAA exemption to cover the pilots from violating their pilot's license more than a "CAP regulation".

[Short Field]

For those that care the regulation just referred to goes to the core of the FAA exemption to cover the pilots from violating their pilot's license more than a "CAP regulation".

CAPR 60-3, CAP Emergency Services Training and Operational Missions, prescribes concepts, policies, and standards that govern all Civil Air Patrol (CAP) supervisory, ground, and flight personnel in the training, qualification, and execution of CAP operational missions.   Para 2-3(o) establishes the basic requirements for qualification as a TMP.

You are confusing 60-3 with 60-1.  CAPR 60-1, Attachment 2, lists the FAA exemptions, specifically exemptions to keep CAP pilots from violating their pilot's license limitations.

[wingnut55]

Why waste your time trying to get a rating from CAP, you can and should do it through a local FBO or someone who "does it for a Living" it will be cheaper, you may deduct the rating from your income tax, this you may verify with a tax consultant. The IRS will allow you this only if you are already a CAP pilot. This is worth its weight in Gold.

[WT]

I disagree about time wasting.  While there are good instructors and not so good instructors, some of the BEST instructors I have flown with have been on CAP flights.  Some of our instructors VOLUNTEER their time for us as pilots in CAP, and don't at FBO's.  Anyway, just remember CAP does not exist as a flight school.  As long as you follow the rules and truly volunteer your time, you can ALSO get some excellent instruction while you are doing it!

[heliodoc]

I can disagree with WT also.....

Finding consistency and a consistent schedule for even G1000 training can be a challenge

How about the general member who VOLUNTEERS their time for just about anything in the squadron not just flight instructors or check pilots.  What do you mean truly volunteer your time .....100 hours a week??

We all know CAP wasn't a flight school nor should they be.  But ask some CFI's and some will remind you how valuable their time is........  like the general memberships time is not??

Volunteer time is worth approx $19.70  according to independentsector.com

So that puts volunteer time right up there with some CFI rates after the FBO cut is applied

[Eclipse]

Here is the authorization for TMPs to fly High Bird:
CAPR 60-3 2-3o(3) Note 2: On authorized ES missions TMPs can only:
• Transport Emergency Services qualified CAP members required for an authorized mission
• Ferry aircraft required for an authorized ES mission
• Fly "high bird" communications sorties on an authorized ES mission
• Current and qualified FAA private pilots may transport parts and equipment owned by CAP or a CAP member to a mission base or staging area
• Current and qualified FAA commercial pilots may transport parts and equipment not owned by CAP

Now for the real issue on using TMPs:  A TMP is not required to be a MS or a MO.  They are not required to have any ES training outside of GES - this includes Basic Communications User Training.  IMHO, that means they can not be the Mission Commander (MC) on a High Bird mission and you must have a qualified MO along to be the MC and handle all the CAP communications.  Of course a TMP who is also a qualified MO could be the MC.

The best right seat for a highbird is an MRO with enough aircrew experience to tolerate sitting in a VW with a door nailed to the top of it for 3-4 hours+.

Highbird's job is accurate relay of messages and communications related tasks, nothing to do with SAR as it relates to a normal Observer's role.

I am strongly in favor of using TMP's in priority for highbird missions, because it then removes the temptation many IC's and AOBD's have to "retask the bird inthe air" as a SAR plane, moving it off station and cutting the highbird off from the ground.  Since many mission ROE's involve ground assets holding fast, or even RTB'ing if communications are lost, some IC's forget that their attempt to leverage an air asset cuts the legs off of their ground assets. (These discussions can get "spirited").

Highbird is first and foremost a safety and communications asset, so the people in the plane should be scaled accordingly.
Most mission observers use the radio 10 or 15 times a sortie, while a highbird MRO will likely have to juggle several airplanes, ground assets and base comms every 30 minutes for roll-calls and other traffic.

[KyCAP]

In some of our Highbird operations in Ky our Observers are routinely handling as many as 15 aircraft for relay.  If I tell you more I would have to shoot you.

Also, one of the posts refers to some confusion about 60-1 vs 60-3.  I concur with the purpose of each that was stated however, 60-3 can't delegate or describe "guidance" that would be in violation of Federal Law (CFR that describes pilot activities) which the exemptions are for.  Therefore, my point was that ANY CAPR is shaped by the CFR and subsequent exemptions provided to CAP by the FAA Administrator.

Another thread refers to the tax exemption for flight instruction.   I have never given any thought to the deductibility of the Commercial Rating for support to CAP.  In general the prevailing thought is that the Commercial Rating is not a deductible educational expense because it allows you to generate income and prepares you for "another career" rather than advancement or required training.

In my case, I am not a professional pilot, so trying to position that the use of my Commerical Rating would be for  CAP "specifically" I doubt that a tax judge would let that stand the test, because I could then generate revenue as a professional pilot outside of CAP.

[rgr84]

stratoflyer,

Has your original question been answered?

[airdale]

Why waste your time trying to get a rating from CAP, you can and should do it through a local FBO or someone who "does it for a Living" it will be cheaper ...

Wow.

(1) Hard to believe it will be cheaper than CAP, considering CAP instructors don't charge for their time and the airplane time is cheaper.  I would be interested to know the logic behind the statement.

(2) Someone "who does it for a living" at an FBO is quite likely to be a time-building kid who is only one page of the book ahead of the student.  IMHO you are much less likely to encounter a time-builder in CAP.

Gold is where you find it;  The high-time real-world-GA-IMC CFII (often aka "freight dog") might be found either place.

(3) Tax deductibility  is probably independent of where you get the training, except that CAP at least has the possibility of making the cost deductible as a charitable expense.  Consult your tax adviser.

(4) It may well be faster at an FBO because you are not dealing with a volunteer instructor who has other things like family and career demands on his/her time.

[Short Field]

I concur with the purpose of each that was stated however, 60-3 can't delegate or describe "guidance" that would be in violation of Federal Law (CFR that describes pilot activities) which the exemptions are for.  Therefore, my point was that ANY CAPR is shaped by the CFR and subsequent exemptions provided to CAP by the FAA Administrator.

CAPR 60-3 can and does establish the requirements to become a TMP and establishe limits on what missions a TMP can be used for.   Note 2 only applies to TMPs.   Other FAA requirements, qualifications, restrictions and exemptions apply to CAP Pilots in general, but we were specifically discussing TMPs.

[KyCAP]

The "ways" in which CAP defines the TMP mission role and the SAR/DR pilots roles as outlined in CAPR 60-3 are defined by the exemptions handed out by the FAA Administrator.   If I am a CAP Pilot and I just join CAP and shoot instrument approaches the exemptions are irrelevant and so is CAPR 60-3.  However, once I as an IC delegate to the Air Operations Branch missions they have to consider WHAT each pilot can perform during the mission. 

Those WHAT's for each level of pilot are defined as a reflection of the exemptions.  In 2004-2005 time period a review was occurring at the NHQ level that HIGHBIRD operations required a COMMERCIAL RATING.   I was involved in at length discussions with our Wing DO and DOV who were in turn going to NHQ and reviewing this with the NHQ General Counsel.   After several more meetings between FAA Counsel and CAP General Counsel the exemptions were interpreted to ALLOW Highbird missions to NOT require a COMMERCIAL RATING.  Therefore, CAPR 60-3 was allowed to stand with the requirements based on the reflection of the FAA Administrators exemption and interpretation by FAA General Counsel and CAP General Counsel.


Otherwise, if the interpretation had went the other way and the the FAA exemptions would have required a COMMERCIAL rating, then TMP definitions in CAPR 60-3 would have been revised to exclude HIGHBIRD missions because the only requirement is a PIC with 100 HOURS or what ever it is these days.   If you recall this, was the SAME TIME that the insurance for B-missions had no insurance coverage and COMMERCIAL ratings were required for AFROTC orientations pilots.   CAPR 60-3 just missed the bullet in changed for the definitions of the TMP and it's function.