Obtaining IFR rating in CAP

[stratoflyer]

I just joined CAP as a senior member. I already have a private pilot license and was pleased to find out that I could get my IFR rating through CAP. I was already told to get intimately familiar with CAPR 60-1. I think the IFR training would be done Part 61. What about simulator time? Or would that not be necessary since flying CAP airplanes is already at a reduced cost?

I would appreciate any tips, hints, and otherwise useful information to maximize this opportunity. My ultimate goal is to become a mission pilot!

[FW]

Training for advanced ratings would be under Part 61.  Also, I would get rated as a "transport mission pilot" before you get started.  It's amazing what you can learn while flying aircraft to mission base with a CAP instructor pilot sitting in the right seat.  After you qualify as a "TMP", start training as a Mission Pilot (MP).  More things to learn.   If you do things right, your instrument training gets much easier.
Simulator time is good if you don't have adequate access to aircraft.  I think costs are about equal and, IMHO, actual flying beats the simulator every time (except in thunderstorms  ).  Good luck with your training.

[DG]

CAPR 60-1 Paragraph 3-6. CAP Pilot Flight Training Leading to an Additional Airman Rating or Certificate. Senior and cadet members may receive flight instruction from CAP instructors in CAP aircraft as follows:
a. CAP senior member mission pilots are authorized flight training leading to an instrument rating, or airman rating or certificate (commercial, certificated flight instructor, or certificated flight instructor instrument). (Use mission symbol B12.)
b. CAP pilots, qualified IAW paragraph 3-2c, who have been an active member of CAP for at least 1 year, are authorized flight training leading to an instrument rating, or airman rating or certificate (commercial, certificated flight instructor, or certificated flight instructor instrument) when his/her training has been approved by the wing or region commander. (Use mission symbol C17.)

[mikeylikey]

^ So if you are already a pilot, CAP will help you advance further, but if you are not already a pilot, but want to become one, CAP will CRAP all over you.  I see how it works.  One group is better than another.

Anyway, stratoflyer, welcome to CAP.  Good luck in your advancement.  When do you pin on Captain? 

[Short Field]

I am not sure, but I don't believe being "authorized flight training leading to an instrument rating.." is the same as CAP fully funding the training.  You have to pay the normal rates for the aircraft and may get some discount hours in the process if you are lucky.  The big advantage is that you can fly CAP plane a lot cheaper than you can rent a similar plane and the CAP CFII does not charge you for the instruction.  If CAP does pay, then I need to know as I could use the free flying hours!!!

With a PPL, once you complete Level I, you can be promoted to 2Lt. 

Most accelerated promotions I process are for non-pilots.

[davidsinn]

I think what he's saying is non pilots can not take primary instruction in a CAP aircraft except under special cases. Thus were I to learn I can't use the very low rate to fly a corporate asset. I'd have to find a publicly available aircraft.

[stratoflyer]

OK. First, let me clarify somethings here.

I am by no means looking for free flight training--I simply heard that the cost of training through CAP is substantially less due to no profit being made. There are, of course, costs involved.

I also understand that my flight training will be in accordance with FAA part 61 rules.

Now, what exactly is a "Transport Mission Pilot"?

I found this in the regs:

CAPR 60-1 Section 3-2
c. CAP Pilot. The following basic requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP pilot in CAP aircraft:
(1) Be an active CAP member at least 17 years of age (16 years of age for CAP glider pilots).
(2) Possess a valid FAA private, commercial, or airline transport pilot certificate.
(3) Possess a class III or higher medical certificate (not required for gliders).
(4) Possess a current flight review IAW FAR 61.56.
(5) Satisfactorily complete a CAPF 5 flight check in an aircraft (in an appropriate group) within the preceding 12 months.
(6) Complete an annual CAPF 5 written examination and annual aircraft questionnaires (attachments 3 and 4) for each aircraft authorized to fly.

So this says that the only real additional requirement to the FAR's is to get a form 5 checkride. Am I correct here?

How do I get Wing approval to start my training?
Where do I find an instructor and how do I get in contact with him?
My squadron has an airplane, so that is no concern there for me.


In short, after the sun rises tomorrow, what should be my first action to start flying with CAP?

Side note--I'm being promoted to 2LT because of my PPL. I'm ok with that because my level 1 was exempted because I earned my Mitchell as a cadet. So I'll get 1LT in 6 months. Capt will come when I finish my degree.

[SJFedor]

CAPR 60-1, Para 3-6(b) is the answer you're looking for.

You need to do your form 5, get qualified, and spent at least 1 year with CAP before you may begin your training towards an additional rating, unless you get your MP rating before that year is up. You then need to upchannel a request to conduct said training to Wing, and they will write back and say yes or no.

Your unit Stan/Eval officer or Operations officer should be able to help you get started on getting yourself qualified.

[FW]

A Transport Mission Pilot has passed and is qualified for basic CAPF 101 "General Emergency Services" rating and, is a Private Pilot with 175 hrs PIC.  Once your TMP qualification is entered into eservices by your ops officer, you can start training as a Mission Pilot.  While you are training as a MP, you will also start your training (if desired) for instrument rating.  My opinion would be to go for commercial also; as having the commercial/inst. will qualify you for all missions we fly.

So, first get TMP rated.  Next, get MP training with CFII and begin advanced rating training concurrently.  Participate in as many missions as you can having CFII in right seat for most effective use of aircraft, training and cost.

Use simulator only when grounded by weather.

[Short Field]

A Transport Mission Pilot has passed and is qualified for basic CAPF 101 "General Emergency Services" rating and, is a Private Pilot with 175 hrs PIC.  

TMP only requires 100 hrs PIC.  MP Trainee requires 175 hrs PIC plus be a Mission Scanner.  MP requires 200 hours.

[FW]

^ My CRS again  

[Flying Pig]

If  you have access to a Flight Training device (simulator) DO IT!  They are great.  You can get very detailed in your procedures. If you are messing up on an approach, you can literally stop right when the problem is arising and talk about it, back up a mile or two and do it again.  IFR is all about precise procedures.  You can get in detail that you will not otherwise be able to get when you are flying for real.

There are also a lot of drills you do on a Flight Trainer that really assist you with your holds and your power management.  As far as getting your TMP or MP first, I don't think it matters.  If your going to get your Instrument rating then get it.  That way when you get your TMP or MP you will also have your IFR privileges on your Form 5 as well. 

[stratoflyer]

CAPR 60-1, Para 3-6(b) just burst the bubble. I haven't been a member for a year yet. So that means I cannot start my instrument training for 10 months more.

Is this something that can be waived with wing approval?

I guess the only thing I can do now is just my form 5 checkride and build time towards the 100 hrs I need to be TMP rated.

I would also need my CAPF 101 Emergency Services basic rating, right?

[RiverAux]

You're going to need that whole 10 months training to become useful to CAP anyway, so don't worry about it. 

[SJFedor]

CAPR 60-1, Para 3-6(b) just burst the bubble. I haven't been a member for a year yet. So that means I cannot start my instrument training for 10 months more.

Is this something that can be waived with wing approval?

I guess the only thing I can do now is just my form 5 checkride and build time towards the 100 hrs I need to be TMP rated.

I would also need my CAPF 101 Emergency Services basic rating, right?

Unless you can get your MP rating within that 10 months, no.

Part of the reason that rule is there is that (and I'm not saying you're doing this) it prevents people from coming into CAP just for the reduced aircraft rates and free instruction, collecting a few extra ratings, and bouncing right out the door without really giving anything to the organization.

[stratoflyer]

^ Definitely I can see that would be a reason for that. No, rest assured I'm here for the Cadet Program. I got my Mitchell and had a blast and thought about sharing my experience and knowledge. It sure is a nice benefit to be able to fly at a reduced rate.

[SJFedor]

^ Definitely I can see that would be a reason for that. No, rest assured I'm here for the Cadet Program. I got my Mitchell and had a blast and thought about sharing my experience and knowledge. It sure is a nice benefit to be able to fly at a reduced rate.

Well then, we're glad to have you 

[ßτε]

Side note--I'm being promoted to 2LT because of my PPL. I'm ok with that because my level 1 was exempted because I earned my Mitchell as a cadet. So I'll get 1LT in 6 months. Capt will come when I finish my degree.

You could also be a 2d Lt  from your Mitchell. How is it you will get 1st Lt in 6 months? And what degree are you expecting to get Capt from?

[Camas]

So I'll get 1LT in 6 months.

Try one year from the time you make 2d Lt.

Capt will come when I finish my degree.

Captain will come when you complete Level II - just like everyone else unless there's some very good reason in accordance with CAPR35-5 that should provide you with an exemption.

[stratoflyer]

Yeah I clearly misread the regs. It's clear now.

[Mustang]

Transport Mission Pilot is a form of mission pilot, so if you qualify for that, once it's on your 101 card, you're good to go.  Otherwise, you'll have to wait until you've been a member for a year and secure your wing commander's approval.

[KyCAP]

Just read through this thread... One lingering thing in there not clearly laid out although it is mentioned and hinted toward.

Mission Pilot when stated as Mission Pilot does NOT equal or include Transport Mission Pilot.  So training with a requirement of "Mission Pilot" is NOT authorized to Transport Mission Pilots.   

I ran the last "Flight Clinic" that was funded by CAP in 2004 and worked through all of this language with our Stan/Eval officer and John Salvador (NHQ/DO) back then.  Transport Pilots were NOT authorized for that either. Hence, my coming to understand the nuance in the language.

If it is meant to be applicable, it will state BOTH or either.

[SJFedor]

Transport Mission Pilot is a form of mission pilot, so if you qualify for that, once it's on your 101 card, you're good to go.  Otherwise, you'll have to wait until you've been a member for a year and secure your wing commander's approval.

No. TMP is not Mission Pilot, which is required by 60-1. '

Don't be that guy.

[Mustang]

Transport Mission Pilots are, in fact, one type of mission pilot. If NHQ and/or the NB Ops committee and/or CAP-USAF wanted it more specific, it'd BE more specific. They've had plenty of opportunity to change the language since 2004, but have not.  Unless and until the regs or a policy letter state otherwise--and they presently do not--the term "mission pilot" does in fact include both Transport and SAR/DR types.  The scope of what TMPs may be assigned is somewhat limited (transport, ferry, highbird), but that's also true of SAR/DR pilots who are not CD-approved. 

If you've got something concrete to support a contrary position--ICL, PL, etc--I'm certainly open to it, but otherwise, you're simply stating opinion.

[mikeylikey]

^ Semantics possibly. 

I think it would better if a comma (,) were placed between "Mission" and "Pilot".  As in  "Transport Mission, Pilot".  That way there is a pause between the words "Mission" and "Pilot". 

You are a PILOT on a transport mission.  You are not a "Mission Pilot".

I do believe clarification may be forthcoming, so hold on to your hat.   

[Mustang]

You are a PILOT on a transport mission.  You are not a "Mission Pilot".

By your logic, SAR/DR mission pilots aren't "mission pilots" either, they're PILOTS on SAR/DR missions. 

A "mission pilot" is any CAP Pilot who is authorized to fly CAP aircraft on a USAF-directed mission, period.  Both Transport Mission Pilots and SAR/DR Mission Pilots are therefore "mission pilots".  If John Salvador wants the term to be more specific, he's got the tools at his disposal to do so; he has not availed himself of these as yet.

As I said, TMPs are not limited to "transport missions"; they may also fly highbird sorties.  In any event, a TMP is, in most cases, a pilot short of the 175 hrs PIC required to be a SAR/DR Mission Pilot Trainee.

And even if they WERE limited to only "transport missions", it's not unreasonable for such a mission to require flight in less-than-VFR conditions, and therefore, an instrument rating would enhance a TMP's usefulness. Instrument training should be permitted on those grounds alone--and, in fact, IT IS.

But that's beside the point, really. It's long been my opinion that all CAP pilots should be trained to the Commercial/Instrument level if they aren't already.  Those two tickets make one a sharper, more competent pilot.

[JC004]

Transport Mission Pilots are, in fact, one type of mission pilot. If NHQ and/or the NB Ops committee and/or CAP-USAF wanted it more specific, it'd BE more specific. They've had plenty of opportunity to change the language since 2004, but have not.
...

This is probably because they were too busy changing patches and other uniform items.  It is a lot of work, deciding how many times to change the command patch and the CAP tape.

[heliodoc]

^

I have to to agree with Mr Colgan

CAP spends ENTIRELY too much time on uniforms and how stylish we can look to our ES suitors.

It DOES take an inordinate amount of time to change all those uni's and uni items and NOT pay attention to other things like having and up to date MART on the CAP.gov operations page.

I readily understand ALL that "volunteer" and "my time" HOORAH.  But there are more important things to attend to than 81 uniform changes per quarter

Makes NASAR look more professional than we do at times, arguing and worrying about what "military badge I can wear" and those 81 uniform changes makes us look pretty silly

How about some REAL IFR training from CFI and not CAP CFI's who are more interested in Form 5 'ing their friends rather than the general population of us COMM/ INST pilots who do get paid in our PTor FT world?

Lets see it for some REAL Mandatory training from CAP and requiring those CFI's, who for instance, got the free ride to Independence , KS and still have yet to make a real "effort" in training a number of aspiring G1000 drivers.  In some Wings, it is appearing (read perception) that it is always the same people getting the AFAM and funded Form 5/91's and not some new crop of pilots

I personally have addressed that I would PAY for my own Form 5 AND 91 and I am sure there are others who will or have done the same

How about all those "professionals" at NATL get a contact team out there to do some compliance checks out there to see where all that training dinero went to and then ckride those and inspect the records of those who were supposed to pass down the training.  There are some Wings CFI's that have taken the mission more seriously than others.....

IFR training is more serious than just a bunch of icons on a website and how many uniforms we can tend to.....

[DG]

No. TMP is not Mission Pilot, which is required by 60-1. '

What is a mission sortie?

I have over 25 A9 maintenance flight mission sorties and/or A15 O-flight mission sorties.   But I never flew a SAR/DR mission or SAREX except as a trainee.  Can I qualify as a mission check pilot?

CAPR 60-1 3-2 h. Mission Check Pilot. The following requirements must be met to be qualified as a CAP mission check pilot in CAP aircraft.
(2) Have a minimum of 25 mission sorties as PIC ....

[Frenchie]

Looking at the reg, the generic "Mission Pilot" is not defined anywhere.  However on the 101 card, MP is the abbreviation for SAR/DR Mission Pilot and many use the terms interchangeably.

I'm not sure you could make such an assumption on a written regulation.  Furthermore look at the following excerpt from 60-11:

a. Appropriated Funding. When appropriated funds are used (the usual case) the only PCT participants that may be reimbursed are qualified SAR/DR mission pilots, SAR/DR mission pilot trainees, and qualified transport mission pilots (TMP) who are commercially rated with a current Class II medical. No appropriated funds will be used for those who are not mission pilots or trainees.

So another regulation specifically includes TMP as a "mission pilot".  You can also look at it from a logical perspective.  Are you more likely to need an instrument rating on a transport mission, or a SAR/DR mission?  I've never seen a SAR/DR mission flown IFR (that's not to say it isn't done), however I've seen many transport missions flown under IFR.

[heliodoc]

Hey folks I will claim ignorance.....


New MART on Operations section at cap.gov

My mistake.......

[KyCAP]

CAPR 60-1 Feb 2008

3-9 Requirements for CAP Mission Check Pilots and CAP Mission pilots

a. All mission check pilots must be CAP members and current qualified SAR/DR mission pilots.

So, no, TMP can NOT be Mission Check Pilots.

[KyCAP]

CAPR 60-1 Feb 2008

3-6 a. - CAP senior member mission pilots are authorized flight training leading to an instrument rating.... (Use mission Symbol B-12).

Which is guiadance if you are going to use the tool to get flight training as a mission pilot you must use AF insurance coverage on unfunded sortie...

However, TMP can NOT use B-12 symbols..

3-9 b. SAR/DR/CD mission pilots are authorized proficiency flight training under AF assigned non-reimbursed mission status.  These flights should be released using B-12 mission symbol and flown IAW attachment 9.

Further-

ATTACHMENT 9-4 – APPROVED MISSION PILOT PROFICIENCY FLIGHT
PROFILE #4
Transportation Mission Profile

The transportation mission profile may only be  flown by FAA commercial rated pilots or qualified SAR/DR mission pilots.  The following is an approved profile for "Proficiency Flight Training for Mission Pilots".

Attachment 10 - Flight Mission Symbols

(B12) Proficiency flight by qualified SAR/DR/CD mission pilots  conducted pursuant to guidelines published by HQ CAP-USAF in attachment 7 and attachments 9-1 through 9-7 and SAR/DR training in accordance with CAPR 60-3.

Seriously, I don't know what is "ambiguous"? 

This should be tightened up to read the following based on the other information in subsequent language in the reg:

3-6 a. - CAP senior member SAR/DR/CD mission pilots are authorized flight training leading to an instrument rating.... (Use mission Symbol B-12).

[KyCAP]

looking at 60-1 Draft..

This is tightened up to reflect the ambiguousness of 60-1 Feb 2008 (and previous editions).

2-8. Pilot Training.

a.  CAP cadets and qualified SAR/DR mission pilots are authorized to use CAP airplanes  for flight instruction toward any FAA certificate or rating.
b.  All CAP members are authorized to use CAP gliders for flight instruction toward any FAA certificate or rating.
c.  CAP senior members that are not current SAR/DR mission pilots must obtain
permission to receive flight instruction in CAP airplanes toward FAA certificates or ratings as follows:
(1)  Senior members who hold a Private Pilot Airplane Certificate or higher and have been an active CAP member for at least 1 year – Wing commander written permission.
(2)  All other senior members – Wing and region commander and the CAP Executive Director, provided the members lives more than two hours driving time from a commercial training facility.

The point I get from this is that CAP is not a cheap alternative to commercially available flight instruction.  So, if you can prove it based on 2-8-c-2 criteria (two hours from flight training facility) then CAP will assist you in progressing. 

Otherwise, you need to be in CAP 1 year or be a SAR/DR mission pilot.

[RiverAux]

I ran the last "Flight Clinic" that was funded by CAP in 2004

Kentucky hasn't had a flight clinic in 4 years?

[KyCAP]

This was the last "clinic" in FY 04 under the CAPR 50-11 which is now CAPR 60-11.   At that time the reg changed and the timing is honestly a bit fuzzy, but the short version is we applied for funding under one reg and did the training while a "Draft" was coming out... It was quite confusing because by the time the funding reimbursement came to the Wing it was under a new reg and required some "clarification".

Thinking about this some more... this is when the AF started requiring Commercial ratings for AF ROTC orientation pilots and the commercial rating was tacked into the reg for the flight clinic funding for Transport Mission Pilots... (I think... still fuzzy)

[DG]

CAPR 60-1 Feb 2008

3-9 Requirements for CAP Mission Check Pilots and CAP Mission pilots

a. All mission check pilots must be CAP members and current qualified SAR/DR mission pilots.

So, no, TMP can NOT be Mission Check Pilots.

OK.

I am a SAR/DR Mission Pilot.  Newly minted.

What is the definition of a "mission sortie"?

I have over 25 A9 maintenance flight mission sorties and/or A15 O-flight mission sorties.   But I never flew a SAR/DR mission or SAREX except as a trainee.  Can I qualify as a mission check pilot in meeting the requirement for 25 mission sorties?

[KyCAP]

Technically, you have the Sorties by the "letter of a sortie".  However, in our wing upon application to the National Check Pilot Standardization Course you also would submit your pilot log book with supporting "sorties" for authorization. 

It is my opinion and observation that this appointment is the discretion of the Wing Stan / Eval Officer.  Therefore, it might be their position that you might have the "numbers" but not the subtance of the "type" of mission flight profiles to be evaluating your peers on a Form 91.

In other words, you probably didn't fly grids or steep turns on maintenance sorties that you need to evaluate peering pilots on.

I am not a Stan/Eval guy.... but I am sure there is one or two lurking to get their read on this.

[airdale]

OP:

I would appreciate any tips, hints, and otherwise useful information to maximize this opportunity.

This thread has kind of drifted OT, but for the OP I'd like to offer a couple of things:

(1) Find a CFII who has a lot of actual working experience in weather and in the system.  Like hundreds of cross-country hours in IMC, flying GA airplanes.  "Dual given" doesn't count.

You can get the rating alright working with someone who has 5 hours of IMC and a shiny new CFII certificate as long as that someone knows how to teach and knows the material.  But what you won't learn is the real world of weather, reroutes, diversions, ice, etc. at the altitudes GA airplanes fly.  Think about it.  Do you really want to learn that world alone, flying single-pilot IFR?

(2) Get as much actual IMC time as you can prior to taking the ride.  Set a minimum, like 10 hours, and stick to it.  After you get the rating, when you get a nice IMC day with just enough ceiling to let you get back into your home airport, call the CFII and go out.  Repeat as often as possible unless you are flying a lot of actual on your own.  This isn't cheap insurance, but IMHO it's pretty good life insurance.

[stratoflyer]

Thanks airdale. That's sounds like great advice.

[SJFedor]

CAPR 60-1 Feb 2008

3-9 Requirements for CAP Mission Check Pilots and CAP Mission pilots

a. All mission check pilots must be CAP members and current qualified SAR/DR mission pilots.

So, no, TMP can NOT be Mission Check Pilots.

OK.

I am a SAR/DR Mission Pilot.  Newly minted.

What is the definition of a "mission sortie"?

I have over 25 A9 maintenance flight mission sorties and/or A15 O-flight mission sorties.   But I never flew a SAR/DR mission or SAREX except as a trainee.  Can I qualify as a mission check pilot in meeting the requirement for 25 mission sorties?

Since your appointment as a MCP would be done by the Wing/CC or his desginee (DOV), and they have the discretion as to whether or not they wanna appoint you (not automatic), I would say that, by the straight definition, yes, you have 25 "mission" sorties, however, they're not related to the type of mission activities you'd be evaluating as a MCP, so they would probably pass on you until you had experience relevant to the position.

[SJFedor]

You are a PILOT on a transport mission.  You are not a "Mission Pilot".

By your logic, SAR/DR mission pilots aren't "mission pilots" either, they're PILOTS on SAR/DR missions. 

A "mission pilot" is any CAP Pilot who is authorized to fly CAP aircraft on a USAF-directed mission, period.  Both Transport Mission Pilots and SAR/DR Mission Pilots are therefore "mission pilots".  If John Salvador wants the term to be more specific, he's got the tools at his disposal to do so; he has not availed himself of these as yet.

As I said, TMPs are not limited to "transport missions"; they may also fly highbird sorties.  In any event, a TMP is, in most cases, a pilot short of the 175 hrs PIC required to be a SAR/DR Mission Pilot Trainee.

And even if they WERE limited to only "transport missions", it's not unreasonable for such a mission to require flight in less-than-VFR conditions, and therefore, an instrument rating would enhance a TMP's usefulness. Instrument training should be permitted on those grounds alone--and, in fact, IT IS.

But that's beside the point, really. It's long been my opinion that all CAP pilots should be trained to the Commercial/Instrument level if they aren't already.  Those two tickets make one a sharper, more competent pilot.

Others have since used other logic to defeat this particular idea, but just for gits and shiggles, I've submitted a question to the KB under Stan/Eval for NHQ's read on the subject, though I know what they're going to say, as they're tightening it up in the 60-1 draft.

[DG]

As I said, TMPs are not limited to "transport missions"; they may also fly highbird sorties. 

Transport Mission Pilot previously was a rating which allowed a pilot to fly into and out of a mission base.

That way s/he could fly an a/c into a SAREX, or a real mission for that matter, and do training for mission pilot, or otherwise perform as a mission pilot trainee in the mission.

Maintenance flights and repositioning flights were flown as C mission symbol flights.  Any CAP plot was capable of flying those sorties.

Now under the current scheme, transport mission pilots may fly into and out of a mission base, and also now are flying A9 maintenance flights.

I don't see how a transport mission pilot properly may be released for a mission sortie tasked as high bird in the mission.

[Short Field]

Here is the authorization for TMPs to fly High Bird:
CAPR 60-3 2-3o(3) Note 2: On authorized ES missions TMPs can only:
• Transport Emergency Services qualified CAP members required for an authorized mission
• Ferry aircraft required for an authorized ES mission
• Fly "high bird" communications sorties on an authorized ES mission
• Current and qualified FAA private pilots may transport parts and equipment owned by CAP or a CAP member to a mission base or staging area
• Current and qualified FAA commercial pilots may transport parts and equipment not owned by CAP

Now for the real issue on using TMPs:  A TMP is not required to be a MS or a MO.  They are not required to have any ES training outside of GES - this includes Basic Communications User Training.  IMHO, that means they can not be the Mission Commander (MC) on a High Bird mission and you must have a qualified MO along to be the MC and handle all the CAP communications.  Of course a TMP who is also a qualified MO could be the MC.

 

[DG]

Thank you, Short Field!

[KyCAP]

All, to be clear, I agree that the the TMP should not be the sole person on board of a "Highbird" sortie UNLESS they are carrying an airborne repeater or are fully qualified to execute a communications role effectively.   I personally would prefer a BCUT/MRO/MO "looking" person.   

It can be done single pilot tracking MANY assets in the field.  I know personally know that it can be done ...  For those that care the regulation just referred to goes to the core of the FAA exemption to cover the pilots from violating their pilot's license more than a "CAP regulation".

[Short Field]

For those that care the regulation just referred to goes to the core of the FAA exemption to cover the pilots from violating their pilot's license more than a "CAP regulation".

CAPR 60-3, CAP Emergency Services Training and Operational Missions, prescribes concepts, policies, and standards that govern all Civil Air Patrol (CAP) supervisory, ground, and flight personnel in the training, qualification, and execution of CAP operational missions.   Para 2-3(o) establishes the basic requirements for qualification as a TMP.

You are confusing 60-3 with 60-1.  CAPR 60-1, Attachment 2, lists the FAA exemptions, specifically exemptions to keep CAP pilots from violating their pilot's license limitations.

[wingnut55]

Why waste your time trying to get a rating from CAP, you can and should do it through a local FBO or someone who "does it for a Living" it will be cheaper, you may deduct the rating from your income tax, this you may verify with a tax consultant. The IRS will allow you this only if you are already a CAP pilot. This is worth its weight in Gold.

[WT]

I disagree about time wasting.  While there are good instructors and not so good instructors, some of the BEST instructors I have flown with have been on CAP flights.  Some of our instructors VOLUNTEER their time for us as pilots in CAP, and don't at FBO's.  Anyway, just remember CAP does not exist as a flight school.  As long as you follow the rules and truly volunteer your time, you can ALSO get some excellent instruction while you are doing it!

[heliodoc]

I can disagree with WT also.....

Finding consistency and a consistent schedule for even G1000 training can be a challenge

How about the general member who VOLUNTEERS their time for just about anything in the squadron not just flight instructors or check pilots.  What do you mean truly volunteer your time .....100 hours a week??

We all know CAP wasn't a flight school nor should they be.  But ask some CFI's and some will remind you how valuable their time is........  like the general memberships time is not??

Volunteer time is worth approx $19.70  according to independentsector.com

So that puts volunteer time right up there with some CFI rates after the FBO cut is applied

[Eclipse]

Here is the authorization for TMPs to fly High Bird:
CAPR 60-3 2-3o(3) Note 2: On authorized ES missions TMPs can only:
• Transport Emergency Services qualified CAP members required for an authorized mission
• Ferry aircraft required for an authorized ES mission
• Fly "high bird" communications sorties on an authorized ES mission
• Current and qualified FAA private pilots may transport parts and equipment owned by CAP or a CAP member to a mission base or staging area
• Current and qualified FAA commercial pilots may transport parts and equipment not owned by CAP

Now for the real issue on using TMPs:  A TMP is not required to be a MS or a MO.  They are not required to have any ES training outside of GES - this includes Basic Communications User Training.  IMHO, that means they can not be the Mission Commander (MC) on a High Bird mission and you must have a qualified MO along to be the MC and handle all the CAP communications.  Of course a TMP who is also a qualified MO could be the MC.

The best right seat for a highbird is an MRO with enough aircrew experience to tolerate sitting in a VW with a door nailed to the top of it for 3-4 hours+.

Highbird's job is accurate relay of messages and communications related tasks, nothing to do with SAR as it relates to a normal Observer's role.

I am strongly in favor of using TMP's in priority for highbird missions, because it then removes the temptation many IC's and AOBD's have to "retask the bird inthe air" as a SAR plane, moving it off station and cutting the highbird off from the ground.  Since many mission ROE's involve ground assets holding fast, or even RTB'ing if communications are lost, some IC's forget that their attempt to leverage an air asset cuts the legs off of their ground assets. (These discussions can get "spirited").

Highbird is first and foremost a safety and communications asset, so the people in the plane should be scaled accordingly.
Most mission observers use the radio 10 or 15 times a sortie, while a highbird MRO will likely have to juggle several airplanes, ground assets and base comms every 30 minutes for roll-calls and other traffic.

[KyCAP]

In some of our Highbird operations in Ky our Observers are routinely handling as many as 15 aircraft for relay.  If I tell you more I would have to shoot you.

Also, one of the posts refers to some confusion about 60-1 vs 60-3.  I concur with the purpose of each that was stated however, 60-3 can't delegate or describe "guidance" that would be in violation of Federal Law (CFR that describes pilot activities) which the exemptions are for.  Therefore, my point was that ANY CAPR is shaped by the CFR and subsequent exemptions provided to CAP by the FAA Administrator.

Another thread refers to the tax exemption for flight instruction.   I have never given any thought to the deductibility of the Commercial Rating for support to CAP.  In general the prevailing thought is that the Commercial Rating is not a deductible educational expense because it allows you to generate income and prepares you for "another career" rather than advancement or required training.

In my case, I am not a professional pilot, so trying to position that the use of my Commerical Rating would be for  CAP "specifically" I doubt that a tax judge would let that stand the test, because I could then generate revenue as a professional pilot outside of CAP.

[rgr84]

stratoflyer,

Has your original question been answered?

[airdale]

Why waste your time trying to get a rating from CAP, you can and should do it through a local FBO or someone who "does it for a Living" it will be cheaper ...

Wow.

(1) Hard to believe it will be cheaper than CAP, considering CAP instructors don't charge for their time and the airplane time is cheaper.  I would be interested to know the logic behind the statement.

(2) Someone "who does it for a living" at an FBO is quite likely to be a time-building kid who is only one page of the book ahead of the student.  IMHO you are much less likely to encounter a time-builder in CAP.

Gold is where you find it;  The high-time real-world-GA-IMC CFII (often aka "freight dog") might be found either place.

(3) Tax deductibility  is probably independent of where you get the training, except that CAP at least has the possibility of making the cost deductible as a charitable expense.  Consult your tax adviser.

(4) It may well be faster at an FBO because you are not dealing with a volunteer instructor who has other things like family and career demands on his/her time.

[Short Field]

I concur with the purpose of each that was stated however, 60-3 can't delegate or describe "guidance" that would be in violation of Federal Law (CFR that describes pilot activities) which the exemptions are for.  Therefore, my point was that ANY CAPR is shaped by the CFR and subsequent exemptions provided to CAP by the FAA Administrator.

CAPR 60-3 can and does establish the requirements to become a TMP and establishe limits on what missions a TMP can be used for.   Note 2 only applies to TMPs.   Other FAA requirements, qualifications, restrictions and exemptions apply to CAP Pilots in general, but we were specifically discussing TMPs.

[KyCAP]

The "ways" in which CAP defines the TMP mission role and the SAR/DR pilots roles as outlined in CAPR 60-3 are defined by the exemptions handed out by the FAA Administrator.   If I am a CAP Pilot and I just join CAP and shoot instrument approaches the exemptions are irrelevant and so is CAPR 60-3.  However, once I as an IC delegate to the Air Operations Branch missions they have to consider WHAT each pilot can perform during the mission. 

Those WHAT's for each level of pilot are defined as a reflection of the exemptions.  In 2004-2005 time period a review was occurring at the NHQ level that HIGHBIRD operations required a COMMERCIAL RATING.   I was involved in at length discussions with our Wing DO and DOV who were in turn going to NHQ and reviewing this with the NHQ General Counsel.   After several more meetings between FAA Counsel and CAP General Counsel the exemptions were interpreted to ALLOW Highbird missions to NOT require a COMMERCIAL RATING.  Therefore, CAPR 60-3 was allowed to stand with the requirements based on the reflection of the FAA Administrators exemption and interpretation by FAA General Counsel and CAP General Counsel.


Otherwise, if the interpretation had went the other way and the the FAA exemptions would have required a COMMERCIAL rating, then TMP definitions in CAPR 60-3 would have been revised to exclude HIGHBIRD missions because the only requirement is a PIC with 100 HOURS or what ever it is these days.   If you recall this, was the SAME TIME that the insurance for B-missions had no insurance coverage and COMMERCIAL ratings were required for AFROTC orientations pilots.   CAPR 60-3 just missed the bullet in changed for the definitions of the TMP and it's function.