Helicopters?

[sarmed1]

I know this topic ranks up there with berets, rangers and medics but someone pointed me toward the following article:

http://www.armytimes.com/article/20131209/NEWS04/312090006/Army-Plans-Scrap-Kiowa-Helo-Fleet

I direct you toward the later part of the article:

There remains the question of what the Army will do with the more than 300 Kiowa aircraft that it is divesting.

A priority will be put on any needs that the other services may have first, said Col. Jong Lee, of the service's acquisition, logistics, and technology directorate, followed by the Civil Air Patrol, law enforcement, and then foreign military sales

so free helicopters would be available if we could find the pilots to fly them and figure out the cost to maintain them

debate

mk

[sardak]

Still, "the Army is in a difficult position," one defense industry source said. The Armed Aerial Scout AoA "said that the most affordable and capable option was Kiowa linked with the Shadow UAV."

So if we take the Kiowas, do we get the Shadows, too? Then we'd have something we could use.

Mike

[NIN]

This wound up linked on FB the other day and everybody was all atwitter that we were going to be flying Kiowas...

I kind of peed on the parade.

Guys, the chances of CAP getting rotary winged aircraft hovers someplace between slim and none, trending toward none (you see what I did there?), the article notwithstanding. That paragraph is likely a mis-quote of something the colonel they interviewed said.

The reporter might have asked "When the DoD disposes of aircraft, where do they go?" and the colonel probably rattled off the usual progression of "who gets in line first" without thinking "who needs to get into this particular line". So when the DoD disposes of aircraft, Civil Air Patrol is up in the "Other DoD" part (before civilian agencies or DRMO sales to the public), but we're not looking at every UH-1 that turns up. We're looking at T-41s (of which there are probably none anymore) or similar.

He might have said "When the DoD retires aircraft, other services have a crack at them, followed by other DoD agencies, you know, like the Civil Air Patrol, then federal government agencies like the Border Patrol or the Department of Agriculture, followed by state and local agencies.." and that reporter didn't think for 10 seconds whether or not Civil Air Patrol flies helicopters or not (or likely, never even heard of CAP..) or that the Department of Agriculture probably has zero need for clapped out OH-58s.

[FlyTiger77]

Everything that was old is new again.

From the article: "WASHINGTON — Army leaders are considering scrapping its entire fleet of Bell Helicopter OH-58 Kiowa Warrior helicopters, while pulling the National Guard's Boeing AH-64 Apaches into the active-duty force to fill the scout helicopter role as the Army seeks to fulfill its longer-term requirement of a newly developed armed aerial scout, according to several Army and defense industry sources."

That is nearly a verbatim quote from news reports from the 1980s and 1990s as the Kiowa Warrior was being introduced. There was talk of having attack-qualified Apache pilots and scout-qualified Apache pilots to fill the gap until the Commanche was fully fielded.

Nearly an entire career later, here we are.

[PHall]

An OH-58D costs how much an hour to fly?
To put it simply, we can't afford them.

[sarmed1]

An OH-58D costs how much an hour to fly?
To put it simply, we can't afford them.

about double what a 182 is what it sounds like (at least on a quick search)
182 is 16 gph cruise & GA8 is 21 gph vs bell 206 is 30 gph cruise
100LL avgas $6ish/gal vs Jet A is around $5/gal

...still more expensive: but knot ridiculous.  I dont think the we would be talking in place of the 182 fleet, but as an adjunct.  More tools in the tool box.

mk

[NIN]

thats the straight up fuel cost.

The per hour cost of an aircraft has maintenance built into it. For a OH-58, easily double your figure.

And consider: consolidated maintenance and rotary winged aircraft would be a hot mess.

[ProdigalJim]

This wound up linked on FB the other day and everybody was all atwitter that we were going to be flying Kiowas...

I kind of peed on the parade.

Guys, the chances of CAP getting rotary winged aircraft hovers someplace between slim and none, trending toward none (you see what I did there?), the article notwithstanding. That paragraph is likely a mis-quote of something the colonel they interviewed said.

The reporter might have asked "When the DoD disposes of aircraft, where do they go?" and the colonel probably rattled off the usual progression of "who gets in line first" without thinking "who needs to get into this particular line". So when the DoD disposes of aircraft, Civil Air Patrol is up in the "Other DoD" part (before civilian agencies or DRMO sales to the public), but we're not looking at every UH-1 that turns up. We're looking at T-41s (of which there are probably none anymore) or similar.

He might have said "When the DoD retires aircraft, other services have a crack at them, followed by other DoD agencies, you know, like the Civil Air Patrol, then federal government agencies like the Border Patrol or the Department of Agriculture, followed by state and local agencies.." and that reporter didn't think for 10 seconds whether or not Civil Air Patrol flies helicopters or not (or likely, never even heard of CAP..) or that the Department of Agriculture probably has zero need for clapped out OH-58s.

I don't disagree with the core of your post. You're right, the odds are slim to none, trending toward none, due to finding pilots, qualifying them, re-qualifying them, and keeping mx up without crushing the budget. I would be gobsmacked if anyone at NHQ tickled the Army about trying to get these birds.

BUT, as an aside, I know the reporter on this story and he's very, very good. One of the best. He used to work for us at AvWeek, and he spent some time in Afghanistan as an embed. And he definitely knows CAP because he knows me.

Sometimes, when an interviewed subject says something goofy you'll ask them, "Are you sure that's what you meant?" And then you'll perhaps rephrase the question and give them a chance to un-stupid whatever they said. Sometimes, they're adamant. And when that happens, often you'll just go ahead and quote 'em...they're grownups, they know they're going in the paper (or on TV), and it can generate interesting debate.

It doesn't just happen with Colonels. Look at what happened during the Asiana crash earlier this year, when the head of the NTSB goes up on national television and starts talking about the hours and experience of the pilot-flying without really knowing the score.

I don't know what Paul asked him to elicit that answer. It's possible that the Col. said what he said during a larger brief to a group of folks, because I've seen a similar quote elsewhere. But knowing him, I'll bet nearly anything that he didn't misquote him.

Maybe there's a PA type sitting somewhere in the Pentagon with his face in his hands, muttering "What the Colonel MEANT to say was..."

[FW]

Helicopters in CAP? 
Will not happen.
Why?
1. Ask the Air Force
2. Training is rediculously prohibitive
    A. We're looking at about $400/hr to transition.
    B. CAP does not have the pilot population experienced enough to operate the machines
3. Maintanence is rediculosly expensive; more than twice the cost of a Cessna.
    A. Facilities are not as available as are for Cessnas
    B. I doubt any of our contracted shops are capable of handling helos.
4. Currency in helicopters are problematical for a number of reasons
5. Our current fleet is quite capable of handling our mission, both current and future. There is no reason, other than ego, for acquiring helicopters.

I am glad CAP is mentioned though. :-)

[a2capt]

They were trying to avoid us not being mentioned in a document, like the one for ABU's ;-)

..doesn't mean that, if CAP was mentioned, we'd have them by now either.

[ProdigalJim]

They were trying to avoid us not being mentioned in a document, like the one for ABU's ;-)

..doesn't mean that, if CAP was mentioned, we'd have them by now either.

So I guess that means we now have to worry about cadets trying to acquire Kiowas and fly them to Tuesday night meetings, saying, "my squadron commander's mother-in-law babysits for the pastor of the church 20 miles from Fort Rucker, and he told me we're authorized for them now, so long as we wear Tiger Stripe Nomex flight suits with orange PAWG Ranger hats."

[PHall]

Tick, tick, tick...

[Flying Pig]

 

[Panache]

Tick, tick, tick...

No, they make more of a "whomp-whomp-whomp" sound.

[ColonelJack]

Any time I think of helicopters, I think of this ...

http://youtu.be/lf3mgmEdfwg

Jack

[Flying Pig]

An OH-58D costs how much an hour to fly?
To put it simply, we can't afford them.

about double what a 182 is what it sounds like (at least on a quick search)
182 is 16 gph cruise & GA8 is 21 gph vs bell 206 is 30 gph cruise
100LL avgas $6ish/gal vs Jet A is around $5/gal

...still more expensive: but knot ridiculous.  I dont think the we would be talking in place of the 182 fleet, but as an adjunct.  More tools in the tool box.

mk

An OH58D is not a Bell 206.  Not to mention, your fuel costs are the least of your issues.  A 58D has the guts of a Bell 407.  FADEC C47.

[AirAux]

CAP did have helicopters, at least one of th early testbeds of the OH-13 or Bell 47, Souix, way back in the late 40's or early 50's, with CAP emblems on it.  Seemed like a good idea that didn't work out.  When I was flying, rotary maintenance was five (5) times the cost of fixed wing.  For every 5 hours of flying time, they spent and hour being worked on.  Maybe different now.  There would be plenty of pilots, i.e., Warrant Officer types from the Army that we could get to fly them.  The problem is the maintenance cost.  Prohibitive compared to our 172's and 182's.  They would be uber cool.  Never gonna happen though, unfortunately..

[sarmed1]

An OH-58D costs how much an hour to fly?
To put it simply, we can't afford them.

about double what a 182 is what it sounds like (at least on a quick search)
182 is 16 gph cruise & GA8 is 21 gph vs bell 206 is 30 gph cruise
100LL avgas $6ish/gal vs Jet A is around $5/gal

...still more expensive: but knot ridiculous.  I dont think the we would be talking in place of the 182 fleet, but as an adjunct.  More tools in the tool box.

mk

An OH58D is not a Bell 206.  Not to mention, your fuel costs are the least of your issues.  A 58D has the guts of a Bell 407.  FADEC C47.

My bad; I didnt read the whole wikipedia (I know.....) just saw the 58 was based off the 206. (A model apparently) I did come accross the fuel consumption for the 407 though... its more like 36-40/hr.

And one site that I looked at talked about hourly operating costs (again very generic) in looking compared to a Cesna 182 it looks about double the hourly operating cost (it sounded like that figured in maintenence as well)

Of course there are other with more/better knowledge than me... I'm just self loading baggage.

The pilot thing is a catch 22, you wont be able to recruit pilots without a helicopter; you wont be able to get a helicopter unless you have pilots.  Those who know:  What is the likelyhood/cost/time of upgrade for existing pilots?

mk

[Al Sayre]

Here's a good report on operational costs for helcopters.
http://www.washingtoninstitute.net/ftpFiles/StudentFinalProjectReports/TFM24/WardHiesterman.pdf

[Flying Pig]

Upgrade existing pilots. We'll you can't do flight training towards a rating in mil surplus aircraft.  So there's hurdle #1.  So everyone would have to do add on's in an R22, 300 or something like the. The CAP wod have to provide essentially a Bell 407 transition course. 

There are so many issues..... It's not even worth bantering back and forth about. Btw.... I was the mil-surplus program manager for my last agency. CAP would not be getting any helicopters.   

[Panache]

While I'm not a pilot myself, I have heard that, generally speaking, most pilots usually don't transition well between the two (fixed wing and rotary wing) aircraft due to the completely different control schemes.

Any truth to that, or is that bunk?

[sardak]

The DoD annually publishes the reimbursable rates for fixed and rotary wing aircraft. There are four categories of rates: DoD, other Federal, FMS, everyone else.  http://comptroller.defense.gov/rates/fy2014.html

For 2014, the base O&M hourly rates for all users are as follows:

OH-58C  $1,615
OH-58D  $2,373

For comparison, the base rate for a T-41D (C-172) is $40.

For all non-DoD customers, added hourly costs are for personnel and asset utilization (also shown in the charts).

Mike

[AirAux]

If I recall correctly, FAA used to require 10 hours of flight time in rotor wing if one had a fixed wing pvt. pilot license to become qualified.  Of course, one must pass the flight exam and for most that would require more than 10 hours of flight time..  Both arms and both legs go in different directions while the mind is at least 1/10 second ahead of the rotor at all times (oh, don't forget the left hand is either rolling on or off the throttle)... But after a while it becomes second nature... Sure if your second nature is strange to begin with..  Great deal of fun, VERY EXPENSIVE fun, best obtained while in the military.. 

[bosshawk]

Panache: the Army has a significant number of its pilots who are dual-rated in both fixed and rotary winged aircraft.  There probably are far fewer civilian pilots who hold both ratings: mostly because it is VERY expensive and takes lots of time.  I believe that all Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps pilots are fixed wing rated first and then go into helicopters.

[Flying Pig]

I fly both on a regular basis.  Often times I've flown both airplanes and helicopters several times in the same day.   Never had an issue. 

[ol'fido]

Any time I think of helicopters, I think of this ...

http://youtu.be/lf3mgmEdfwg

Jack

This is what I think about when I think of helicopters. A holdover from my cadet days...

Apocalypse Now/Ride Of The Valkyries

[bosshawk]

Randy: you have never seen helicopters until you see 50 Hueys in formation.  Saw that every once in awhile when I was in VN.

[Flying Pig]

If I recall correctly, FAA used to require 10 hours of flight time in rotor wing if one had a fixed wing pvt. pilot license to become qualified.  Of course, one must pass the flight exam and for most that would require more than 10 hours of flight time..  Both arms and both legs go in different directions while the mind is at least 1/10 second ahead of the rotor at all times (oh, don't forget the left hand is either rolling on or off the throttle)... But after a while it becomes second nature... Sure if your second nature is strange to begin with..  Great deal of fun, VERY EXPENSIVE fun, best obtained while in the military..

If you have a private airplane, its 35hrs I believe for the add on.  When I did mine, my check ride was my 41st hour.  In turbine helicopters, you don't manipulate the throttle while you are flying.  There is either OFF, FLIGHT IDLE or FLIGHT (full throttle)  Helicopters don't take any longer to learn than airplanes and aren't any harder to fly.  But you don't release a 40hr airplane private pilot loose on fire fighting in an Air Tractor either.  No different with a helicopter.  You don't get your private add on and then head off to do a SAR in the mountains.   "Flying" a helicopter is pretty straight forward.  "WORKING" a helicopter is a different story.

[Panache]

Panache: the Army has a significant number of its pilots who are dual-rated in both fixed and rotary winged aircraft.

I fly both on a regular basis.  Often times I've flown both airplanes and helicopters several times in the same day.   Never had an issue.

Okay, so like a great many things that "they say", this is bunk.  Thanks for the clarification. 

[ol'fido]

Randy: you have never seen helicopters until you see 50 Hueys in formation.  Saw that every once in awhile when I was in VN.

Paul, the most I ever saw was about 10. The 25th ID still had them when I was there. It was a toss up when we had airlift scheduled what we would get.

[LTC Don]

If I recall correctly, FAA used to require 10 hours of flight time in rotor wing if one had a fixed wing pvt. pilot license to become qualified.  Of course, one must pass the flight exam and for most that would require more than 10 hours of flight time..  Both arms and both legs go in different directions while the mind is at least 1/10 second ahead of the rotor at all times (oh, don't forget the left hand is either rolling on or off the throttle)... But after a while it becomes second nature... Sure if your second nature is strange to begin with..  Great deal of fun, VERY EXPENSIVE fun, best obtained while in the military..

If you have a private airplane, its 35hrs I believe for the add on.  When I did mine, my check ride was my 41st hour.  In turbine helicopters, you don't manipulate the throttle while you are flying.  There is either OFF, FLIGHT IDLE or FLIGHT (full throttle)  Helicopters don't take any longer to learn than airplanes and aren't any harder to fly.  But you don't release a 40hr airplane private pilot loose on fire fighting in an Air Tractor either.  No different with a helicopter.  You don't get your private add on and then head off to do a SAR in the mountains.   "Flying" a helicopter is pretty straight forward.  "WORKING" a helicopter is a different story.

Methinks it takes a bit more than a day to learn how to do this and not................die 

Oregon Christmas Tree Harvest With Helicopter. Amazing Pilot!


Christmas Trees 2010 - Putting Trees In Trucks

[NIN]

It was always fun watching the ROKA UH-1 units try to conduct some sort of airmobile operation that was any bigger than 5 aircraft. Somehow more than five and everybody decided they were flight lead. And all went in their own directions

[SarDragon]

Methinks it takes a bit more than a day to learn how to do this and not................die 

Oregon Christmas Tree Harvest With Helicopter. Amazing Pilot!


Christmas Trees 2010 - Putting Trees In Trucks

I've seen this done with spent 500 lb exercise torpedoes, carried by H-46s.

[Eclipse]

Is that straining the airframe in ways not designed?  or is he in the envelope?

Takes my breath away to watch it, especially the external shots.

[PHall]

Is that straining the airframe in ways not designed?  or is he in the envelope?

Takes my breath away to watch it, especially the external shots.

If he wasn't in "the envelope" then he wouldn't be doing it, unless he has a death wish.
Aviation can be very harsh when it comes to stupidity.

[NIN]

Is that straining the airframe in ways not designed?  or is he in the envelope?

Takes my breath away to watch it, especially the external shots.

If you do it right (and he sure looks like he is), you're not really throwing that much at the aircraft.

Of course, when you're flying like that, it is terribly unforgiving of any kind of a problem.  Like a mechanical problem.

[Eclipse]

If you made a video game like that, people would say it was unrealistic.

[Panache]

Aviation can be very harsh when it comes to stupidity.

Gravity is a harsh mistress, indeed.

[Eclipse]

Yeah, it's a downer...

[BillB]

I can see where a limited number of helicopters would further many missions of CAP. Say for example two per Region. I don't think they would be used that often, but when needed could be a valuable asset. I don't think maintenace would be that much of a problem. It would require that new maintenance facilitys would have to be added to the mix and former military pilots obtained. Locally that is no problem. There is a helicopter maintance facility at the local airport that supports many air ambulance choppers, and the squadron has at least one rated chopper pilot. The only problem I see is the cost per flight hour for whatever missions the chopper would be used for. But chances are the rates per hour for CAP flights would be lower than law enforcement or other helicopter operations since there is no cost for pilot just fuel and maintenance. SAR specifically in Florida would find a helicopter better suited for the thick wooded area of the state compared to a 172.

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Aviation can be very harsh when it comes to stupidity.

Gravity is a harsh mistress, indeed.

There is no such thing as "gravity".  The earth sucks.

[Garibaldi]

Randy: you have never seen helicopters until you see 50 Hueys in formation.  Saw that every once in awhile when I was in VN.

Back in the late 70s/early 80s I was visiting my grandparents in rural North Carolina. I heard an awful racket and went outside to see what appeared to be an entire helicopter assault battalion flying over. I swear there must have been 70 Hueys or more, all flying in formation. Truly an awesome spectacle. Fort Bragg was too far away and I never figured out where they were from.

[arajca]

From an olde helicopter pilot I met a few years ago:

Helicopters do not fly. They beat the air into submission.

[ZigZag911]

Rotary wing AC are too expensive to maintain, too expensive too operate, and too difficult for the majority of our aircrew...which is not a knock on CAP pilots... but look at the number of RW incidents and accidents in the military, even with their frequent flying, continuous training and operations.

Practically speaking, CAP does search, not much rescue...so why would we need or want helicopters?

Lighter than air craft, with their capability of low, slow flight with multiple observers, would be more helpful...I saw one used in a mission about 30 years ago, western NJ and eastern PA, rough terrain, multi day operations. Someone arranged to borrow the Fuji blimp, with their aircrew; target found in a matter of hours...but LTAC are also expensive to buy, build, operate, and require special ground crew training...again, accidents waiting to happen with our limited 'op tempo'...which is why cooperative arrangements (such as mentioned earlier) make more sense than CAP ownership and operation.

[sarmed1]

...but look at the number of RW incidents and accidents in the military

As someone who rides pretty regular like as a crew member on a RW I have made a few observations.

Its not a matter of # of incidents, I think its just the "oops's" are less forgiving than the fixed wing world....
(ie run out of gas fixed wing glide down to the road/field etc...everyone walks away; run out of gas on RW, helo falls like rock and usually breaks into a bunch of little pieces)

I hear about way more fixed wing incidents in the military than rotor wing (not counting ones involving things that go bang or boom)...

Crashes that I do hear about in the rotor wing world (especially with EMS services) are frequently caused by crews doing things that they know they are not supposed to do (usually involving weather).


mk

[ol'fido]

Plus, I would imagine it would depend on the type of flying your doing and the age of the airframe. When I was in Hawaii, the 25th ID was flying a mix of Blackhawks, Hueys, Kiowas, Chinooks, and Cobras. It got to the point you could tell which copter it was by the sound even the HPD, CG, and HFD choppers. During my whole 3 years there, I don't think the Army lost a single bird. That's a lot of NOE and other "sporty" flying without any real incidents. The Marines on the other hand were putting about one CH-46 in the drink a month for a while there. They even lost a Hornet or two. The Hornets at that time were almost brand new and the Sea Knights were really old. I almost had to fly an air assault in a 46 and it scared me to death. Luckily, we switched to Chinooks for my chalk.

[The Infamous Meerkat]

Didn't have CH-46's or Hornets at Kaneohe, must have been back in the day. We did manage to drop a CH-53 into the sandbar though, not to help the statistics... Turns out, if you fly a bird from the Vietnam era until now, it starts to give out on you...

who knew?  :angel:

[ol'fido]

'88-'92. K-Bay lost a F-18 being flown by a Canadian exchange pilot that I remember. Don't know if they were assigned there then but we saw them flying around enough. They definitely had '46s. When you have one try to land on you not once but twice, after being waved off, you kind of remember these things.

[NIN]

I had an opportunity to play crew chief on a CH-53 once. They light up the APU, and hydraulic fluid starts raining from the slip rings in the transmission. I make the intercom call for a leak in the cabin. The regular crew chief looks in the cabin door and says "no factor".

I'm thinking " and people joke that Chinooks leak... "

So, we start turning number one, and as the slip rings start moving, the rain gets worse in the cabin. I make the call again on the intercom. The Marine corporal crew chief looks again and says "no factor".

I un plugged my ICS cord and walked away. My platoon sergeant had been a Phrog guy in the Corps.  He knew right away why I was walking back into the office.

[sarmed1]

A friend of mine was an MH-53 gunner and then crew chief, he always said its when it's not leaking fluid that they start to get worried....

mk

[PHall]

A friend of mine was an MH-53 gunner and then crew chief, he always said its when it's not leaking fluid that they start to get worried....

mk

If it's not leaking then the reservior is empty!

[Flying Pig]

Funny....  I fly MD500s, OH58s and UH1s and they don't leak.  Their engine compartments are pristine. 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Benefits of civilian maintenance?

[SarDragon]

Benefits of civilian maintenance?

Not necessarily. Pride of "ownership" is a factor. I saw really clean, and really cruddy airframes when I was in the Navy. The clean ones had maintainers who "owned" their planes/helos, and took care of them as if they took them home. The dirty ones were frequently older units that the maintainers didn't really care about, and thought of them as "just another piece of crap I've gotta fix".

[NIN]

Funny....  I fly MD500s, OH58s and UH1s and they don't leak.  Their engine compartments are pristine.

Yep, never saw a UH-1 with a nasty engine deck. The hell hole was another matter...

[Flying Pig]

Funny....  I fly MD500s, OH58s and UH1s and they don't leak.  Their engine compartments are pristine.

Yep, never saw a UH-1 with a nasty engine deck. The hell hole was another matter...

^Ill have to agree with that   I would say in the military, helicopters are work horse tools.  Well, to be fair, They are flying in dirty environments, coming in at night, getting their MX taken care of and right back out the door.  Crews do not always have "their" helicopter.  Where my situation is different.  We have 5 aircraft (2 OH58s, 1 UH1H, C337T and a C172)  and we have two pilots and 2 mechanics. The mechanics can take their time, address very minute attention to detail/TLC issues, and I hand wash and wax them and detail the interiors about once per month.  They Huey doesn't fly all the time, so it usually gets attention after a mission.  When it comes back from a fire, thats when it goes to the bath because its pretty dirty.  But its pretty cool looking when it comes back with the tail boom all black from the soot!  Means she's been out working! 
So with the military, the work volume isn't even comparable.  Where I am, there are 4 of us.  If the Sheriff or a commander comes by and sees the helicopter all nasty and me sitting at my desk typing on CAPTalk.... someones gonna pay!

That being said though, If any aircraft I am flying is squirting fluids, its not flying.  Ive never flown in a military helicopter that was squirting fluids.  I spent plenty of time in the back of 53s and 46s as a grunt and never witnessed the stories of the crew chief running around with fluid squirting from the overhead.  Our two mechanics at work are both retired Army E8s who were 58 and UH1 mechs.  They don't really get into the detail of appearances, but the MX itself is great.

[UH60guy]

If helicopters are so safe, how come we never have any vintage helicopter fly-ins?

[NIN]

You need to go to West Chester Pennsylvania. You'll see some vintage

[UH60guy]

Yep, never saw a UH-1 with a nasty engine deck. The hell hole was another matter...

Similar story for the UH-60. It's never the engine deck, though the hydraulic deck can leak down the side or the transmission can leak a little into the cabin if the drip pan isn't clean.

I learned the lesson of helmet bag placement the hard way on one maintenance test flight back in aught seven. All the seats were out, so I tossed my helmet bag in the center of the cabin and climbed in the cockpit to begin the runup with the maintenance test pilot. I don't remember what part of the startup we were in, but it couldn't have been very long after we started the #1 engine than we hear the crew cheief say "shut it down, shut it down!" over the ICS. About a gallon of oil from somewhere near the transmission oil cooler fan (which apparently wasn't hooked up right or something, I can't remember) decided to purge somehow straight through the cabin ceiling, and straight into my flight bag.