Helicopters?

[sarmed1]

I know this topic ranks up there with berets, rangers and medics but someone pointed me toward the following article:

http://www.armytimes.com/article/20131209/NEWS04/312090006/Army-Plans-Scrap-Kiowa-Helo-Fleet

I direct you toward the later part of the article:

There remains the question of what the Army will do with the more than 300 Kiowa aircraft that it is divesting.

A priority will be put on any needs that the other services may have first, said Col. Jong Lee, of the service's acquisition, logistics, and technology directorate, followed by the Civil Air Patrol, law enforcement, and then foreign military sales

so free helicopters would be available if we could find the pilots to fly them and figure out the cost to maintain them

debate

mk

[sardak]

Still, "the Army is in a difficult position," one defense industry source said. The Armed Aerial Scout AoA "said that the most affordable and capable option was Kiowa linked with the Shadow UAV."

So if we take the Kiowas, do we get the Shadows, too? Then we'd have something we could use.

Mike

[NIN]

This wound up linked on FB the other day and everybody was all atwitter that we were going to be flying Kiowas...

I kind of peed on the parade.

Guys, the chances of CAP getting rotary winged aircraft hovers someplace between slim and none, trending toward none (you see what I did there?), the article notwithstanding. That paragraph is likely a mis-quote of something the colonel they interviewed said.

The reporter might have asked "When the DoD disposes of aircraft, where do they go?" and the colonel probably rattled off the usual progression of "who gets in line first" without thinking "who needs to get into this particular line". So when the DoD disposes of aircraft, Civil Air Patrol is up in the "Other DoD" part (before civilian agencies or DRMO sales to the public), but we're not looking at every UH-1 that turns up. We're looking at T-41s (of which there are probably none anymore) or similar.

He might have said "When the DoD retires aircraft, other services have a crack at them, followed by other DoD agencies, you know, like the Civil Air Patrol, then federal government agencies like the Border Patrol or the Department of Agriculture, followed by state and local agencies.." and that reporter didn't think for 10 seconds whether or not Civil Air Patrol flies helicopters or not (or likely, never even heard of CAP..) or that the Department of Agriculture probably has zero need for clapped out OH-58s.

[FlyTiger77]

Everything that was old is new again.

From the article: "WASHINGTON — Army leaders are considering scrapping its entire fleet of Bell Helicopter OH-58 Kiowa Warrior helicopters, while pulling the National Guard's Boeing AH-64 Apaches into the active-duty force to fill the scout helicopter role as the Army seeks to fulfill its longer-term requirement of a newly developed armed aerial scout, according to several Army and defense industry sources."

That is nearly a verbatim quote from news reports from the 1980s and 1990s as the Kiowa Warrior was being introduced. There was talk of having attack-qualified Apache pilots and scout-qualified Apache pilots to fill the gap until the Commanche was fully fielded.

Nearly an entire career later, here we are.

[PHall]

An OH-58D costs how much an hour to fly?
To put it simply, we can't afford them.

[sarmed1]

An OH-58D costs how much an hour to fly?
To put it simply, we can't afford them.

about double what a 182 is what it sounds like (at least on a quick search)
182 is 16 gph cruise & GA8 is 21 gph vs bell 206 is 30 gph cruise
100LL avgas $6ish/gal vs Jet A is around $5/gal

...still more expensive: but knot ridiculous.  I dont think the we would be talking in place of the 182 fleet, but as an adjunct.  More tools in the tool box.

mk

[NIN]

thats the straight up fuel cost.

The per hour cost of an aircraft has maintenance built into it. For a OH-58, easily double your figure.

And consider: consolidated maintenance and rotary winged aircraft would be a hot mess.

[ProdigalJim]

This wound up linked on FB the other day and everybody was all atwitter that we were going to be flying Kiowas...

I kind of peed on the parade.

Guys, the chances of CAP getting rotary winged aircraft hovers someplace between slim and none, trending toward none (you see what I did there?), the article notwithstanding. That paragraph is likely a mis-quote of something the colonel they interviewed said.

The reporter might have asked "When the DoD disposes of aircraft, where do they go?" and the colonel probably rattled off the usual progression of "who gets in line first" without thinking "who needs to get into this particular line". So when the DoD disposes of aircraft, Civil Air Patrol is up in the "Other DoD" part (before civilian agencies or DRMO sales to the public), but we're not looking at every UH-1 that turns up. We're looking at T-41s (of which there are probably none anymore) or similar.

He might have said "When the DoD retires aircraft, other services have a crack at them, followed by other DoD agencies, you know, like the Civil Air Patrol, then federal government agencies like the Border Patrol or the Department of Agriculture, followed by state and local agencies.." and that reporter didn't think for 10 seconds whether or not Civil Air Patrol flies helicopters or not (or likely, never even heard of CAP..) or that the Department of Agriculture probably has zero need for clapped out OH-58s.

I don't disagree with the core of your post. You're right, the odds are slim to none, trending toward none, due to finding pilots, qualifying them, re-qualifying them, and keeping mx up without crushing the budget. I would be gobsmacked if anyone at NHQ tickled the Army about trying to get these birds.

BUT, as an aside, I know the reporter on this story and he's very, very good. One of the best. He used to work for us at AvWeek, and he spent some time in Afghanistan as an embed. And he definitely knows CAP because he knows me.

Sometimes, when an interviewed subject says something goofy you'll ask them, "Are you sure that's what you meant?" And then you'll perhaps rephrase the question and give them a chance to un-stupid whatever they said. Sometimes, they're adamant. And when that happens, often you'll just go ahead and quote 'em...they're grownups, they know they're going in the paper (or on TV), and it can generate interesting debate.

It doesn't just happen with Colonels. Look at what happened during the Asiana crash earlier this year, when the head of the NTSB goes up on national television and starts talking about the hours and experience of the pilot-flying without really knowing the score.

I don't know what Paul asked him to elicit that answer. It's possible that the Col. said what he said during a larger brief to a group of folks, because I've seen a similar quote elsewhere. But knowing him, I'll bet nearly anything that he didn't misquote him.

Maybe there's a PA type sitting somewhere in the Pentagon with his face in his hands, muttering "What the Colonel MEANT to say was..."

[FW]

Helicopters in CAP? 
Will not happen.
Why?
1. Ask the Air Force
2. Training is rediculously prohibitive
    A. We're looking at about $400/hr to transition.
    B. CAP does not have the pilot population experienced enough to operate the machines
3. Maintanence is rediculosly expensive; more than twice the cost of a Cessna.
    A. Facilities are not as available as are for Cessnas
    B. I doubt any of our contracted shops are capable of handling helos.
4. Currency in helicopters are problematical for a number of reasons
5. Our current fleet is quite capable of handling our mission, both current and future. There is no reason, other than ego, for acquiring helicopters.

I am glad CAP is mentioned though. :-)

[a2capt]

They were trying to avoid us not being mentioned in a document, like the one for ABU's ;-)

..doesn't mean that, if CAP was mentioned, we'd have them by now either.

[ProdigalJim]

They were trying to avoid us not being mentioned in a document, like the one for ABU's ;-)

..doesn't mean that, if CAP was mentioned, we'd have them by now either.

So I guess that means we now have to worry about cadets trying to acquire Kiowas and fly them to Tuesday night meetings, saying, "my squadron commander's mother-in-law babysits for the pastor of the church 20 miles from Fort Rucker, and he told me we're authorized for them now, so long as we wear Tiger Stripe Nomex flight suits with orange PAWG Ranger hats."

[PHall]

Tick, tick, tick...

[Flying Pig]

 

[Panache]

Tick, tick, tick...

No, they make more of a "whomp-whomp-whomp" sound.

[ColonelJack]

Any time I think of helicopters, I think of this ...

http://youtu.be/lf3mgmEdfwg

Jack

[Flying Pig]

An OH-58D costs how much an hour to fly?
To put it simply, we can't afford them.

about double what a 182 is what it sounds like (at least on a quick search)
182 is 16 gph cruise & GA8 is 21 gph vs bell 206 is 30 gph cruise
100LL avgas $6ish/gal vs Jet A is around $5/gal

...still more expensive: but knot ridiculous.  I dont think the we would be talking in place of the 182 fleet, but as an adjunct.  More tools in the tool box.

mk

An OH58D is not a Bell 206.  Not to mention, your fuel costs are the least of your issues.  A 58D has the guts of a Bell 407.  FADEC C47.

[AirAux]

CAP did have helicopters, at least one of th early testbeds of the OH-13 or Bell 47, Souix, way back in the late 40's or early 50's, with CAP emblems on it.  Seemed like a good idea that didn't work out.  When I was flying, rotary maintenance was five (5) times the cost of fixed wing.  For every 5 hours of flying time, they spent and hour being worked on.  Maybe different now.  There would be plenty of pilots, i.e., Warrant Officer types from the Army that we could get to fly them.  The problem is the maintenance cost.  Prohibitive compared to our 172's and 182's.  They would be uber cool.  Never gonna happen though, unfortunately..

[sarmed1]

An OH-58D costs how much an hour to fly?
To put it simply, we can't afford them.

about double what a 182 is what it sounds like (at least on a quick search)
182 is 16 gph cruise & GA8 is 21 gph vs bell 206 is 30 gph cruise
100LL avgas $6ish/gal vs Jet A is around $5/gal

...still more expensive: but knot ridiculous.  I dont think the we would be talking in place of the 182 fleet, but as an adjunct.  More tools in the tool box.

mk

An OH58D is not a Bell 206.  Not to mention, your fuel costs are the least of your issues.  A 58D has the guts of a Bell 407.  FADEC C47.

My bad; I didnt read the whole wikipedia (I know.....) just saw the 58 was based off the 206. (A model apparently) I did come accross the fuel consumption for the 407 though... its more like 36-40/hr.

And one site that I looked at talked about hourly operating costs (again very generic) in looking compared to a Cesna 182 it looks about double the hourly operating cost (it sounded like that figured in maintenence as well)

Of course there are other with more/better knowledge than me... I'm just self loading baggage.

The pilot thing is a catch 22, you wont be able to recruit pilots without a helicopter; you wont be able to get a helicopter unless you have pilots.  Those who know:  What is the likelyhood/cost/time of upgrade for existing pilots?

mk

[Al Sayre]

Here's a good report on operational costs for helcopters.
http://www.washingtoninstitute.net/ftpFiles/StudentFinalProjectReports/TFM24/WardHiesterman.pdf

[Flying Pig]

Upgrade existing pilots. We'll you can't do flight training towards a rating in mil surplus aircraft.  So there's hurdle #1.  So everyone would have to do add on's in an R22, 300 or something like the. The CAP wod have to provide essentially a Bell 407 transition course. 

There are so many issues..... It's not even worth bantering back and forth about. Btw.... I was the mil-surplus program manager for my last agency. CAP would not be getting any helicopters.