Defense Cuts = No Air Shows

Started by Stonewall, February 16, 2013, 03:28:10 AM

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Tom Szekely

I got into this late and may be duplicating somone else's comment, but what cuts? 

The US government is spending twice as much as it did in 2002, the population didn't double, my income hasn't doubled, sequestration is a reduction in the automatic rate of year-over-year increase, not a real cut. More in constant inflation adjuisted dollars was spent last year than in any previous year, and finally, when I was a young man during the height of the Cold War, the Kennedy Administration alotted about half of all Federal expenditures on defense.  It dropped to as low as 16%-17% after the "peace dividend" and is now up to the low to mid 20's now, wars and all.

If you believe that this spending was and remains necessary to avert a 1929-style economic crash, consider the analogy of taking water out of the deep end (taxes) of a swimming pool and pouring it into the shallow end (stimulus) as a means of raising the overall water level. 

With minimal respect to Paul Krugman, this isn't all that complicated. In English idiom we "make" money while in Lating Tongues it's "found" or "won" because it's not zero-sum. Wealth is created via things like Ricardo's Law of Compartative Advantage and value added by talent and skill.  It's not by the exploitation of others.


Critical AOA

 A well designed and produced TV commercial will reach a far wider audience and do a better job of recruiting than any airshow.  The value of these shows as a recruiting tool is over hyped.
 
I personally enjoy attending airshows such as Oshkosh, Sun 'n Fun or Chino and the many others that are similar albeit much smaller.  I love to see the WW2 warbirds, biplanes, aerobatic shows, experimental planes, new production GA aircraft, skydiving, etc.  These are much more of a pleasure to watch than shows heavy on the jets.  Watching a fighter jet scream by or walking through a large cargo plane just doesn't do it for me. 

Another good thing about the shows I prefer is I get to walk up and get a closer look and even touch and feel the hardware.  I can talk to the aircraft owner or manufacturer.  I can see the demos of new products, speak to vendors and more.   
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."   - George Bernard Shaw

jimmydeanno

Quote from: SarDragon on March 17, 2013, 10:41:20 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 17, 2013, 02:00:18 PM
I wouldn't rather either.  There used to be a time where the DoD wasn't some sort of sacred cow that couldn't be criticized and the civilian population wasn't afraid to keep it in check, since that's who they work for.

DoD has become a function of it's budget.  It has done remarkably well at spending all of their practically unlimited budget.  Now that it's budget isn't unlimited they just need to deal with it.

The practical reality is that the purpose of the military is to destroy our enemy, not provide $40k jobs to unskilled 18 year olds and spend the next 20 years providing their irrelevant education to prepare them for "the outside world," while then providing a living wage for the rest of their life at age 38.

Living wage my ass. Military retirement pay has NEVER been enough to live on by itself. Ever! For me, I'm lucky for it to be enough to make my house payment. Even that hasn't always been the case.

My dad couldn't live on just his retirement as an E-7 over 28, in 1966, nor could I in 1989 (E-6 over 18), nor could My Sweetie by herself in 2000 (E-7 over 24). We can't even do it jointly on just the two retirement checks.

I'm not sure what your individual circumstance is, but our families situation would result in the first retirement check (fast forward a few years) being around 5.8k/month after taxes.  That wouldn't change our standard of living in the slightest.  That's including two houses, two new cars, two kids, vacations, single-income.  Assuming that you spent those 20 years paying a mortgage instead of renting an apartment, theoretically you wouldn't even have a mortage/house payment by the time you retired.  I would hope that someone could live on 50k/year.  Or, during that time instead of paying a mortgage, putting money into TSP.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

lordmonar

Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 17, 2013, 09:57:12 PM
Pat, this is the sacred cow argument I was talking about.  For some reason you are assuming that I'm not looking at the bridges to nowhere and simply going after the vets.  We aren't talking about the bridges to nowhere, we were talking about DoD cuts.

No it is not a sacred cow.......if we got to cut TA....cut TA.....but don't jump on your "I'm a Tax Payer" high horse and complain about how military people are just sucking on the government teat!

QuoteI think the whole military pay system is antiquated, designed around an 19th century caste system that operates under the assumption that the enlisted folks are uneducated and are lower parts of society.  Things like BAH and BAS should just be lumped into your pay.  Our military members aren't operating on the western frontier.  The fact that we pay someone more because they have children or a spouse is absurd.  These are the types of civilian equivalents that I talk about when I compare jobs in the military and civilian sector.  Why do we pay an 18 year old maintenance troop differently than a married one with kids?  Both entry level jobs doing the same thing.

Because if you don't then the 18 year old with kids will not be able to afford being in the military.  Your argument has logical merit....but in fact we are saving money with BAS and BAH....because the alternitive (to just lump it into your pay) means that we increase the pay for the 18 year single guy.....because with out it....the 18 year olds with dependants will have to QUIT the military because they can't afford to support a family and be in the military.   

QuoteEveryone always brings up the "they get shot and and make sacrifices" argument, too.  I agree, but the average military member isn't sitting in a combat zone 24/7.  So, we provide incentive for the situations when they are in harms way.  Going to a war zone?  Congratulations, we recognize that it's a dangerous job, so we bump your pay by X amount (say double) while you are there.  When you get back and are riding a desk like you do 99% of the time, you get your normal pay.  When they get back and we've messed them up then we provide benefits for that.  But let's not set up a pay system that operates under the potential that you could someday be put in harms way, lets compensate them when we actually plan to.
How about just pay what they are worth?   Like I said....as a blue suiter RPA maintenance production supervisor/NCOIC MSgt.....I got payed $40K/year......as a civilan RPA maintenance Tech (wrench turner worker bee type) I would get $90K/year!   

So the little benifits like TA and BAS/BAQ, the non existance saveings of the BX and Commissary.........are not really saving you all that much as a tax payer.

QuoteI see everyday how hard many military members have it with their deployment schedules and time away from their families, and they should be compensated for it.  However, I also see how "hard" military members have it while they work Monday-Friday, 8-4 with an hour lunch, three-day weekends every other week, all holidays off, squadron picnics, morale days, golf tournaments, PTDYs, and time to work out.  Shoot, they don't even have to pick what to wear each day  ;)   You and I know that everyday life for most military members is pretty cushy and that sitting in the finance office in Florida is hardly "in harms way."  I've even had countless former military folks that got out early say that they wished they never had because they "never worked so [darn] hard until they got a civilian job."
You are right......most of us just sit around doing next to nothing all day.....waiting for the next war.   So what you are really saying is that we need a smaller AD and larger Guard and Reserve.   And For the record there are just as many people working 12 hours shifts, crazy schedules and have to do their PT and appointments on their own time.   Just talk to a SF troop about all their time off.     

QuoteMy example of the life skills earned is still valid.  Even the infantry troop often ends up going into police work or security, so there is skills that are earned.  But again, life is full of choices and signing up for the infantry is going to have consequences in the first place.  So, that goes back to the idea that if you're in a position to get an education while your on AD, you get that choice.  If not, use your GI Bill afterward if you really have no valuable skill to use in regular society.

QuoteYour E-1 not taking classes example is even skewed, because you and I know that all that OJT, CBTs, CDCs, training, etc., that they take is all transferable into college credit - that's the whole concept of the CCAF system, no?  Even outside of CCAF, there are plenty of colleges who will give credit for all that stuff.  After a few years, you take things like English, History, and Math and voila, they give you an Associates.  Every online class I'm in now is comprised of about 30% deployed military members.  So, deployment isn't even an obstacle to getting your education while on AD now. Careers like Comm even get cool certifications out of the deal, A+, Security +, CISSP, all paid for.  If I want those to get a job I'm going to need to find an extra 20k or so and get certified before I apply for the job, not get the job and then spend months learning how to do it.  But either way, the incentive for the E-1 to use his own funds to advance is the same as they are for me - better pay, more benefits.  But, like I said before, society is willing to help our military folks with their education, so whatever.
??

QuoteAnd just for numbers, the GI Bill cost the US taxpayer $4.65 billion dollars in 2011, and is expected to cost $90 billion over 15 years.  In 2010, TA cost over 500 million.  So, we're looking at 5 billion dollars a year in veteran education benefits, which is roughly $16 for every man woman and child in the US, $32 if you consider that half don't pay taxes.  But, if you're trying to shave 30 billion off your budget, something that costs you 5 is a pretty good chunck, no?  Did you also know that recent data shows that our military folks are paid about 7-10% MORE than their civilian counterparts?  Congress has been giving raises over and above what the DoD recommendation has been since 2000.  Military pay increased 20% between 2000 and 2006 and keeps rising, despite DoD meeting its recruiting goals month after month after month.  So, the pay and benefits must be more than adequate, no?
I agree.....the GI Bill is a lot of money.....and maybe should be looked at......but we are not talking about the GI bill we are talking about the $500M of TA......much cheaper.....and only a $1.75 per person.

QuoteBut realistically, if we look at the federal budget, if we eliminated all government spending with exception to DoD, Medicare and Social Security, we'd still be running a deficit...so where do you think we need to be looking at?  I'm not picking on the vets, or trying to rake them over the coals.  It's just an honest dialog about the sacred cow syndrome that the country has adopted towards DoD.
I agree that Vet benifits can be a third rail some times..........but let's face it....DoD spends more on whiz bang stuff then they do on TA.  Attack other stupid stuff....like maybe the military academies.....blue angels, thrunder birds, the pentagon, Arlington cemetry.   I remember when the military stopped sending buglers to funerals how much people got up in arms about it!   There is no TDY pay for them now.

Like I said before.......honest discussion about military spending is a must and the military should not be a sacred cow.....but you should not be able to pull the "I'm a tax payer and why do I have to pay for two degrees" card either. 
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 18, 2013, 12:26:05 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on March 17, 2013, 10:41:20 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 17, 2013, 02:00:18 PM
I wouldn't rather either.  There used to be a time where the DoD wasn't some sort of sacred cow that couldn't be criticized and the civilian population wasn't afraid to keep it in check, since that's who they work for.

DoD has become a function of it's budget.  It has done remarkably well at spending all of their practically unlimited budget.  Now that it's budget isn't unlimited they just need to deal with it.

The practical reality is that the purpose of the military is to destroy our enemy, not provide $40k jobs to unskilled 18 year olds and spend the next 20 years providing their irrelevant education to prepare them for "the outside world," while then providing a living wage for the rest of their life at age 38.

Living wage my ass. Military retirement pay has NEVER been enough to live on by itself. Ever! For me, I'm lucky for it to be enough to make my house payment. Even that hasn't always been the case.

My dad couldn't live on just his retirement as an E-7 over 28, in 1966, nor could I in 1989 (E-6 over 18), nor could My Sweetie by herself in 2000 (E-7 over 24). We can't even do it jointly on just the two retirement checks.

I'm not sure what your individual circumstance is, but our families situation would result in the first retirement check (fast forward a few years) being around 5.8k/month after taxes.  That wouldn't change our standard of living in the slightest.  That's including two houses, two new cars, two kids, vacations, single-income.  Assuming that you spent those 20 years paying a mortgage instead of renting an apartment, theoretically you wouldn't even have a mortage/house payment by the time you retired.  I would hope that someone could live on 50k/year.  Or, during that time instead of paying a mortgage, putting money into TSP.

Well, I guess I forgot the officers, 'cause I sure know there are no enlisted folks making enough to end up with $5000+ a month in retirement pay.

The current E-9 max pay is $5,357.40/mo. Seventy-five percent of that is $4018.15/mo. Adding on 3% per year for 5 years gives us $4658.02, still nowhere close to $5000 before taxes. adding 5% per year gets us to 5128.16, before taxes. Using a reasonable amount of 15% for Fed income tax takes us back to $4358.94/mo.

So where we at now? Help me understand your situation, against mine.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Stonewall

You guys don't even want to hear my opinion on the matter.

It raises my blood pressure just considering jumping into this debate, that's why I never get into it.  And yes, my argument would shock the hell out of you, since I'm a veteran and still serving part-time, plus two deployments in my time.  Yeah, grrr...
Serving since 1987.

NIN

I just saw the announcement that the 101st Airborne Division's Parachute Demonstration Team will not be doing any demonstration jumps after 1 April 2013 for this season.

And they, like the Golden Knights and the 82nd & SOCOM demo teams, did a lot more than just airshows.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

This today from the LA Times:http://www.latimes.com/travel/deals/la-trb-las-vegas-sequester-grounds-20130327,0,4214002.story
(I think Lord Monar already mentioned the Nellis cancellations)

Cool picture, though:



"The Associated Press reports that the Thunderbirds, who wow crowds with their formation flying wherever they appear, have canceled all remaining public appearances for 2013. The Associated Press reported that the Army's Golden Knights, an elite skydiving team, also had canceled the rest of their schedule.

Among the biggest events to go dark is the Cleveland National Air Show, which has been held each Labor Day weekend for the last three decades. The aerial display draws tens of thousands of visitors to the Lake Erie shore.

"Aviation Nation was a way for us to show people who normally don't have the opportunity to see what we do here [at Nellis]," Cornish said in the statement. "It is my hope that we will be able to resume Aviation Nation in the near future."
"

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Blue Angels, too:

"March 4(updated Mar 21) Notice from Blue Angels Public Affairs Office: There is a lot of discussion right now regarding the status of the Blue Angels 2013 show schedule. What we can tell you is that the Navy intends to cancel Blue Angel performances scheduled in April as an outcome of the budget cuts resulting from sequestration and the full year continuing resolution. This affects performances at four locations: MacDill AFB, Tampa, FL; NAS Corpus Christi, TX; Vidalia, GA and MCAS Beaufort, SC. The Navy will wait until the last possible moment before making cancellations beyond April. Thank you for all your support for not only the Blue Angels, but the entire Navy and Marine Corps. The Blue Angels are currently training so that if the decision to cancel the April shows is reversed, the team can continue to perform and inspire future generations of Sailors and Marines."

"That Others May Zoom"

Patterson

Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 17, 2013, 09:57:12 PM
I see everyday how hard many military members have it with their deployment schedules and time away from their families, and they should be compensated for it.  However, I also see how "hard" military members have it while they work Monday-Friday, 8-4 with an hour lunch, three-day weekends every other week, all holidays off, squadron picnics, morale days, golf tournaments, PTDYs, and time to work out.  Shoot, they don't even have to pick what to wear each day  ;)   You and I know that everyday life for most military members is pretty cushy and that sitting in the finance office in Florida is hardly "in harms way."  I've even had countless former military folks that got out early say that they wished they never had because they "never worked so [darn] hard until they got a civilian job."

Cushy?!?!  I get up at 5:00AM everyday and "work out" with my Soldiers. I get home around 7:00AM in time to see my kids leaving for school and waiting for the bathroom as my wife takes much too long to finish up.  We share passing comments as I jump in the shower and she leaves for work.  I am back to the unit by 8:00AM, non-stop meetings, briefings and admin work until noon.  I am lucky if I even get a lunch most days.  The afternoon is similar to the morning except retreat does not signal the end of my work day.  I arrive home between 6:00 and 6:30PM, depending on the kids activities I might not get home until 8:00 or 9:00PM. Picnics, morale days and related activities are not always a welcome thing!!  Those of us responsible to coordinate and be at every function are exhausted!  Lets also not forget that long holiday weekends are not always enjoyable for those of us with families.  Just because I have a Friday off doesn't mean my Wife or Kids have the day off! 

If you have ever been deployed or even separated from your family at the lengths our military members are, you would understand why there are long weekends, benefits that are unequal to civilian life etc. 

The difference that has eluded you between a civilian and a member of the military is the oath those of us who are privelaged to serve take.  I don't think FedEx or McDonalds requires you to take an oath or voluntarily sign a promise of contractual servitude...

NIN

Quote from: Patterson on April 04, 2013, 09:23:18 AM
Cushy?!?!  I get up at 5:00AM everyday and "work out" with my Soldiers. I get home around 7:00AM in time to see my kids leaving for school and waiting for the bathroom as my wife takes much too long to finish up.  We share passing comments as I jump in the shower and she leaves for work.  I am back to the unit by 8:00AM, non-stop meetings, briefings and admin work until noon.  I am lucky if I even get a lunch most days.  The afternoon is similar to the morning except retreat does not signal the end of my work day.  I arrive home between 6:00 and 6:30PM, depending on the kids activities I might not get home until 8:00 or 9:00PM. Picnics, morale days and related activities are not always a welcome thing!!  Those of us responsible to coordinate and be at every function are exhausted!  Lets also not forget that long holiday weekends are not always enjoyable for those of us with families.  Just because I have a Friday off doesn't mean my Wife or Kids have the day off! 

If you have ever been deployed or even separated from your family at the lengths our military members are, you would understand why there are long weekends, benefits that are unequal to civilian life etc. 

The difference that has eluded you between a civilian and a member of the military is the oath those of us who are privelaged to serve take.  I don't think FedEx or McDonalds requires you to take an oath or voluntarily sign a promise of contractual servitude...

If I don't miss my read, jimmydeanno was using hyperbole. He would be one of the last people I know to legitimately say that military life is "cushy"

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

Meh, who needs military jets?   Just let an F-18 pilot strap on a Dreamliner...

Impressive Qatar Airways Boeing 787 Dreamliner Display, Farnborough.

"That Others May Zoom"

johnnyb47

Quote from: Eclipse on April 05, 2013, 08:24:55 PM
Meh, who needs military jets?   Just let an F-18 pilot strap on a Dreamliner...


What, no barrel roll? Psh....
;D
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Eclipse

AF lifts grounding of combat squadrons, Thunderbirds

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20130715/NEWS04/130715001/AF-lifts-grounding-combat-squadrons-Thunderbirds

Air Combat Command announced today that it has restored $208 million as part of a $1.8 billion reprogramming allocation authorized by Congress.
This additional funding will re-instate training and test operations for squadrons in Air Combat Command, along with those assigned to
U.S. Air Forces Europe and Pacific Air Forces, including the Air Warfare Center's Weapons School, aggressors and the Thunderbirds aerial demonstration team.

"That Others May Zoom"

NIN

I offered to stand in for the Golden Knights in a CAP uniform. Neither the AF, CAP or the Army was thrilled with the concept...
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

SamFranklin

Quote from: jimmydeanno on March 17, 2013, 09:57:12 PM

I think the whole military pay system is antiquated, designed around an 19th century caste system that operates under the assumption that the enlisted folks are uneducated and are lower parts of society.  Things like BAH and BAS should just be lumped into your pay.  Our military members aren't operating on the western frontier.  The fact that we pay someone more because they have children or a spouse is absurd.  These are the types of civilian equivalents that I talk about when I compare jobs in the military and civilian sector.  Why do we pay an 18 year old maintenance troop differently than a married one with kids?  Both entry level jobs doing the same thing.

..... Did you also know that recent data shows that our military folks are paid about 7-10% MORE than their civilian counterparts?  Congress has been giving raises over and above what the DoD recommendation has been since 2000.  Military pay increased 20% between 2000 and 2006 and keeps rising, despite DoD meeting its recruiting goals month after month after month.  So, the pay and benefits must be more than adequate, no?



This point by jimmydeano is right on target. Even AFA, hardly an anti-servicemember organization, admits that military pay has gone whacko  ("Air Force Magazine," July 2010)



Quote"It is important to note that the military's own goal is not strict parity; it is for troops to earn in the 70th percentile (that is, to be better paid than 70 percent of comparable civilians), not to have "average" pay—or the best pay.

The Congressional Budget Office determined that military members in 2006 were actually in the 75th pay percentile. "Since then, military pay raises have continued to exceed the increases of civilian wages and salaries," CBO officials told Congress this year.

Further, the pay gap only counts basic pay. Not included in the calculation are the value of military housing and sustenance allowances, a major portion of total military pay. By the CBO's calculations, military pay—when housing and food allowances are factored in—has actually outpaced private-sector pay by 11 percent since 1982. RAND has also found essentially no pay gap since 1982....

[Instead of paying everyone unnecessarily high pay] the money could be better applied to targeted bonuses in highly stressed career fields. It is unlikely, though, that Congress will agree.


We've digressed into politics and I'm not helping, but geesh, look at US military spending overall:  We spend more than the TEN NEAREST COMPETITORS COMBINED. You could cut the Pentagon by half and still have more going than China + Russia + UK. I'm for a republic, not an empire. Ike was of the same mind.

http://www.pgpf.org/Chart-Archive/0053_defense-comparison

MSG Mac

Quote from: Eclipse on July 15, 2013, 04:27:43 PM
AF lifts grounding of combat squadrons, Thunderbirds

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20130715/NEWS04/130715001/AF-lifts-grounding-combat-squadrons-Thunderbirds

Air Combat Command announced today that it has restored $208 million as part of a $1.8 billion reprogramming allocation authorized by Congress.
This additional funding will re-instate training and test operations for squadrons in Air Combat Command, along with those assigned to
U.S. Air Forces Europe and Pacific Air Forces, including the Air Warfare Center's Weapons School, aggressors and the Thunderbirds aerial demonstration team.


The T-Birds, Blue Angels, and other "Demonstration Units" should not have been reactivated. When there is a serious money crunch in the Defense Department and we cannot fund operational flying, why have show ponies?
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Eclipse

Quote from: MSG Mac on July 15, 2013, 07:01:35 PMThe T-Birds, Blue Angels, and other "Demonstration Units" should not have been reactivated. When there is a serious money crunch in the Defense Department and we cannot fund operational flying, why have show ponies?

The article mentions a loss of readiness in regards to the combat units, as to the demonstration units, those air shows attendees who are constituents, and those constituents vote and
bug their congressmen, etc.

I don't agree with it, but that's at least a plausible explanation.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

The Blue Angels are back after being grounded for nearly a year.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/14/us/blue-angels-fly-irpt/index.html

"(CNN) -- Clipped wings no more, the Blue Angels are soaring again. The blue and gold jets are returning to the sky after being grounded much of last year because of forced spending cuts.
The U.S. Navy Flight Demonstration Squadron kicks off the 2014 air show season with its first show Saturday, March 15, at Naval Air Facility El Centro in California.
The nation's best military fliers halted their iconic aerobatic performances in April 2013.
But aerospace and military fans are rejoicing as the Blue Angels return this year for more dynamic aerial demonstrations. The team is scheduled for 68 performances at 35 locations between now and November 8."

"That Others May Zoom"

SarDragon

The schedule has been cut back to the extent that former three day performances have been reduced to two days in most, if not all, cases.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret