Medical Certificate

[SARDOC]

In order to get a Medical Certificate you must see an FAA approved physician.  Unless you are active duty military, you could see a Military Flight Surgeon.  Is the Document issued by the Flight Surgeon valid for CAP pilot purposes in lieu of the FAA Certificate.  I can't find anything in the new CAPR 60-1 that it's allowed or prohibited.  It just states "Medical Certificate" It doesn't even say FAA.

Just curious if anyone out there has an actual Military pilot that might be flying CAP airplanes.  Thanks

[SarDragon]

When I was a student pilot OAD, I got all of my medicals (3rd and 2nd class) through military flight surgeons. They even gave me the proper student pilot certificate. This was back in the '70s. Things may or may not have changed.

[Flying Pig]

Believe it or not..... Not all military flight surgeons are approved to give FAA flight physicals.  I get  a first class military flight physical every 3 years to attend the Navy underwater egress course.  The physicals I get dont qualify for the FAA. Believe me..... I tried even though Im there all freaking day..blood work, eyes exam, hearing exam sitting in the silent box, EKG.....   Wild huh

I know a pilot here locally who flies Super Hornets and has to get an FAA exam from a civilian doc in order to fly civilian.  None of the docs at the base are approved to do FAA medicals. 

[SARDOC]

Thanks for the input guys and I believe what you are telling me.  Does CAP require an FAA medical Certificate and where can I find the reference.  Thanks

[bflynn]

In order to get a Medical Certificate you must see an FAA approved physician.  Unless you are active duty military, you could see a Military Flight Surgeon.  Is the Document issued by the Flight Surgeon valid for CAP pilot purposes in lieu of the FAA Certificate.  I can't find anything in the new CAPR 60-1 that it's allowed or prohibited.  It just states "Medical Certificate" It doesn't even say FAA.

Just curious if anyone out there has an actual Military pilot that might be flying CAP airplanes.  Thanks

CAP doesn't create or control the requirement for flight medicals, they come from the FAA.  Therefore only the FAA controls what constitutes a valid flight medical....or for that matter, a valid pilot's certificate.  A military flight medical does not satisfy the requirement for an FAA medical unless the doctor is also an FAA doctor.

In addition to military flight medicals being different, military pilots don't even necessarily have a FAA issued pilot's certificate.  They can get one pretty easily and I imagine most of them do, but they are seperate things.

The only thing valid for CAP, since we are a civilian organization, is FAA documents.

[sparks]

The following FAA link will help you find a Medical Examiner;

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/amelocator/

[Flying Pig]

If your a pilot in CAP and flying your required to have a pilots license issued by the FAA.  The only thing that makes that valid is a valid medical from the FAA.  Military rated pilots have to have civilian ratings to fly CAP aircraft.  Our aircraft are operated Part 91, not Public Use.  Whatever any civilian would need, so does any CAP pilot.
Its not that CAP requires one.  The FAA does.  In order to have a valid pilot certificate you have to have a valid FAA medical.  The FAA has no juridiction over military aviation which is why military pilots dont get issued FAA medicals from a flight surgeon.

[SARDOC]

Thanks Flying Pig that answers my question.  On another note, there was a discussion recently about CAP/USAF personnel possibly being able to fly CAP aircraft as well.  Does that mean they also have to get the FAA required documentation if not already done so.  Thanks

[Flying Pig]

I would have to think so.  CAP planes fall under the jursdiction of the FAA.

[bosshawk]

The short answer is YES, they must have an FAA license and an FAA medical in order to fly CAP aircraft.  In addition, they must do a form 5.

[PHall]

One of the Flight Surgeons at March ARB was also a FAA designated Flight Surgeon too. It's not that uncommon.

[bosshawk]

You are right, Phil.  IN my days in the Army(a looooong time ago) there were lots of Flight Surgeons who were also AMEs.

[PHall]

It's not that hard for a military flight surgeon to get designated an FAA Flight Surgeon.
Basically they just apply for the designation and provide the documentation from the military showing the training they received.
Mostly a paperwork exercise.

[Paradoc]

It's not that hard for a military flight surgeon to get designated an FAA Flight Surgeon.
Basically they just apply for the designation and provide the documentation from the military showing the training they received.
Mostly a paperwork exercise.

Actually, you are incorrect.

The FAA requires all Aviation Medical Examiners to attend a Basic AME Seminar in Oklahoma City.  This is a week long course (but it felt like two weeks!).  When I took my basic course I had 20+ military flight surgeons in my class.  Even though they were trained as flight surgeons in the military, they had to take the FAA course to do civilian flight physicals.  It is not just a "paperwork exercise".

There are many military flight surgeons who are also FAA flight surgeons.  And most of them will do the FAA paperwork for military pilots who also fly civilian.

Yes, in order to fly with CAP, you need a valid FAA flight physical from a designated FAA AME.  Military flight physicals don't count for FAA pilot privileges.

[SARDOC]

CAP doesn't create or control the requirement for flight medicals, they come from the FAA.  Therefore only the FAA controls what constitutes a valid flight medical....or for that matter, a valid pilot's certificate.  A military flight medical does not satisfy the requirement for an FAA medical unless the doctor is also an FAA doctor

The FAR's have this reference

(b) Operations not requiring a medical certificate. A person is not required to hold a medical certificate--
Snipped for brevity
(9)When a military pilot of the U.S. Armed Forces can show evidence of an up-to-date medical examination authorizing pilot flight status issued by the U.S. Armed Forces and--


(i) The flight does not require higher than a third-class medical certificate; and
(ii) The flight conducted is a domestic flight operation within U.S. airspace. 

If the FAA will accept a Military Flight Physical, will CAP?

[scooter]

On a related note, Oct 1, 2012 MedXpress is in force for FAA Medical Certificates.  See attach.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[SARDOC]

Bump.

Is there any reference that requires specifically an FAA medical to fly CAP aircraft?

[SarDragon]

Bump.

Is there any reference that requires specifically an FAA medical to fly CAP aircraft?

Yes. CAPR 60-1, paras 3-7, and 3-9.

You  must be current under FAA regs. This includes a medical.

[SARDOC]

Yes. CAPR 60-1, paras 3-7, and 3-9.

You  must be current under FAA regs. This includes a medical.

Both Those paragraphs just state that they must meet FAA Guidelines and a Military Pilot with a Military Clearance for Flight meets FAA guidelines.  No FAA medical Certificate is needed if they can provide proof of a military clearance for flight.

If that's the only reference than a Military pilot should be able to fly CAP aircraft without an FAA medical Certificate.  I can't find any reg to the contrary.

[bflynn]

I think you're right, as long as the military flight medical is current.  I'll admit that I learned something...never really read through all the "not needed" section of 61.23 (b)

As a practical item, wouldn't documentation of the military medical be required in e-services?  And then probably an explanation to a lot of people that this is indeed valid as a medical under 61.23 (b).

I have no idea what all that would entail.  It sounds a lot easier to just find a military doctor that is also an AME and pay them for the extra paperwork...

[FlyTiger77]

...pay them for the extra paperwork...

In my experience, Army flight surgeons have never accepted pay for doing a civilian medical in conjunction with an annual military flight physical.

[SARDOC]

^^ That's just the thing.  Not all Military Flight Surgeons are AME's.  Even if they were it would be against regulations to pay them for the extra paperwork.

The Military Flight Physical is an annual requirement so I would think the documentation would need to be updated every time there is a new version.   Also, Military Medical Clearances could be revoked even for the most trivial items.  So the integrity of the Member is crucial in the event their clearance is suspended.

[bflynn]

Military Medical Clearances could be revoked even for the most trivial items.  So the integrity of the Member is crucial in the event their clearance is suspended.

Class 3 medicals can be lost too.  So we're already depending on the integrity of members, which I don't think is a bad thing.

[SARDOC]

Military Medical Clearances could be revoked even for the most trivial items.  So the integrity of the Member is crucial in the event their clearance is suspended.

Class 3 medicals can be lost too.  So we're already depending on the integrity of members, which I don't think is a bad thing.

Back in the day when I was a Corpsman in an Aviation Unit, I could pull an "up Chit" for any reason I deemed necessary, even if it was that the Aviator failed to return their medical record to the squadron as directed.

In preparing for an inspection I had four pilots that wouldn't return "their" medical record, I had to remind them that the medical record was actually the property of the U.S. Government and that their flight clearances were suspended for failure to comply.  They ignored me for over a month...strangely within hours of having their flight status and flight pay suspended I had all four records.  As a Corpsman I can suspend, but then they had to go to medical and meet with a flight surgeon to get a new clearance.  All the Aviators in the Command knew not to mess with Doc when he warns you.   

[PHall]

Military Medical Clearances could be revoked even for the most trivial items.  So the integrity of the Member is crucial in the event their clearance is suspended.

Class 3 medicals can be lost too.  So we're already depending on the integrity of members, which I don't think is a bad thing.

Back in the day when I was a Corpsman in an Aviation Unit, I could pull an "up Chit" for any reason I deemed necessary, even if it was that the Aviator failed to return their medical record to the squadron as directed.

In preparing for an inspection I had four pilots that wouldn't return "their" medical record, I had to remind them that the medical record was actually the property of the U.S. Government and that their flight clearances were suspended for failure to comply.  They ignored me for over a month...strangely within hours of having their flight status and flight pay suspended I had all four records.  As a Corpsman I can suspend, but then they had to go to medical and meet with a flight surgeon to get a new clearance.  All the Aviators in the Command knew not to mess with Doc when he warns you.   

And you wonder why flyers hate you.       It's bad enough we gotta play "you bet your career" with you clowns every year.

[SARDOC]

Military Medical Clearances could be revoked even for the most trivial items.  So the integrity of the Member is crucial in the event their clearance is suspended.

Class 3 medicals can be lost too.  So we're already depending on the integrity of members, which I don't think is a bad thing.

Back in the day when I was a Corpsman in an Aviation Unit, I could pull an "up Chit" for any reason I deemed necessary, even if it was that the Aviator failed to return their medical record to the squadron as directed.

In preparing for an inspection I had four pilots that wouldn't return "their" medical record, I had to remind them that the medical record was actually the property of the U.S. Government and that their flight clearances were suspended for failure to comply.  They ignored me for over a month...strangely within hours of having their flight status and flight pay suspended I had all four records.  As a Corpsman I can suspend, but then they had to go to medical and meet with a flight surgeon to get a new clearance.  All the Aviators in the Command knew not to mess with Doc when he warns you.   

And you wonder why flyers hate you.       It's bad enough we gotta play "you bet your career" with you clowns every year.

They can hate me all they want.  When they fail to bring the records back for six months and the squadron fails the NATOPS audit because if it.  The Doc (me) and the Skipper would be answering to the Admiral.  Not when I've got tools at my disposal to influence the outcome...I don't think so.

[PHall]

Military Medical Clearances could be revoked even for the most trivial items.  So the integrity of the Member is crucial in the event their clearance is suspended.

Class 3 medicals can be lost too.  So we're already depending on the integrity of members, which I don't think is a bad thing.

Back in the day when I was a Corpsman in an Aviation Unit, I could pull an "up Chit" for any reason I deemed necessary, even if it was that the Aviator failed to return their medical record to the squadron as directed.

In preparing for an inspection I had four pilots that wouldn't return "their" medical record, I had to remind them that the medical record was actually the property of the U.S. Government and that their flight clearances were suspended for failure to comply.  They ignored me for over a month...strangely within hours of having their flight status and flight pay suspended I had all four records.  As a Corpsman I can suspend, but then they had to go to medical and meet with a flight surgeon to get a new clearance.  All the Aviators in the Command knew not to mess with Doc when he warns you.   

And you wonder why flyers hate you.       It's bad enough we gotta play "you bet your career" with you clowns every year.

They can hate me all they want.  When they fail to bring the records back for six months and the squadron fails the NATOPS audit because if it.  The Doc (me) and the Skipper would be answering to the Admiral.  Not when I've got tools at my disposal to influence the outcome...I don't think so.

And they had their records for what reason?  If it was to go to a school isn't part of your guys inprocessing checklist to retrieve the records from them before you sign off your block?

Or does the Air Force have a better way to do this. Because we don't really have this kind of problem.
We may have other problems, but not this problem...

[SARDOC]

And they had their records for what reason?  If it was to go to a school isn't part of your guys inprocessing checklist to retrieve the records from them before you sign off your block?

Or does the Air Force have a better way to do this. Because we don't really have this kind of problem.
We may have other problems, but not this problem...

The Medical Records were maintained by the Squadron's Medical Department.  The Command had an assigned flight surgeon who happened to be a reservist, so his role was mostly Quality Assurance but occasionally clinical for those in an active aviation billet.  Active and Reserve Pilots and Aircrew had to have all their medications issued to them via a flight surgeon.  The Branch Medical Clinic typically had 2-3 Flight Surgeons on duty during the day.  For them to get a routine physical or sick call they had to come to the squadron and retrieve their record and hand carry it to the Clinic.

After their appointment they are supposed to come back to the Squadron and return their record along with any appropriate SIQ documentation and Medical Notes.  Frequently, when assigned SIQ they would just go home and bring their record back the next working day.  Occasionally they got a referral to see a specialist at the Naval Hospital which was over 20 miles away for multiple follow up appointments with them needing to hand carry their record each time.  My predecessor would frequently allow them to just hold on to the record for convenience purposes.

This developed the "it's My record" culture.  I was frequently just referred to their "up Chit"(authorization for Flight) and that the record was none of my business.  That answer was a NO GO.  My job was to audit each of their appointments especially those with specialists that were not flight surgeons for any medications or medical conditions that would make the member not aeronautically adaptable to flight. 

When Records stopped coming back to the Squadron Medical Department, I brought it up to the OPS Chief which ended my problem with the Aircrew guys.  It was the Officers that I had a problem with.  The OPS Chief and myself brought the issue up with the OPS/O and I got the shaking head nod but nothing changed.  Eventually the Ops Chief brought it up to the CMC who brought it up to the skipper..still nothing Changed.  It wasn't until the wing medical officer came to do a spot check before a NATOPS inspection when he flipped out when he saw record sign out cards that were over three months old.  I really wish I was there to see it.  He went straight to the skipper and made a call that he could "down" the entire squadron and require all aviation personnel re do a Flight Physical (even I think that would be overboard...but there were other issues)  The Next day I came back to work and the skipper told me to fix it.  I started issuing Down Chits to the most uncompliant in the group.  One a Day, until we got to day four.  So after downing three pilots the word got out and I had all the records back in the cabinet.  After that no problems with the exception of one or two non Aviation personnel.  Which was quickly rectified by their division chief.

[SarDragon]

 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[PHall]

Ah, I see the difference here. The Navy keeps the records at the squadron. In the Air Force they're kept in the Base Flight Surgeon's office.
The medical folks maintain custody of the records about 98% of the time.

I knew we had a "better" system!

[SarDragon]

Well, not "better", just different. Our deployment structure differs from yours, necessitating different handling procedures. When everyone plays nicely, the system works well.

[SARDOC]

There were tenant units that did indeed keep their medical records at the clinic.  Mostly those assigned to shore duty at the Naval Station and the Naval Air Station.  I know we kept the records because we were expected to be able to deploy a detachment anywhere in the world between 48-72 hours.  Our unit was primarily assigned to Combat Search and Rescue and Naval Special Warfare Support.  So as the Corpsman I had to be able review the Detachment roster and verify those sailors that were a No Go for deployment and notify the chain that a sailor was ineligible for medical reasons so they can assign a suitable replacement.  It the timeline I had to provide that decision within 8 hours of receiving orders and since I was a drilling reservist this could be a real trick especially if I wasn't local and/or didn't have access to the member's record.  So the QA deployment process was ongoing so I could just check the deployment roster against my roster of eligible sailors.

That's why I started becoming a real PITA when it came to returning medical records.

[PHall]

The Air Force has the same 48 - 72 hour deployment window. And yet feels no need to keep the medical records at the squadron.

Of course we don't have medical personnel assigned to the squadron either...

As part of our deployment process, as soon as the unit identifies which personnel are deploying, that list is sent to the Clinic where the records are pulled and reviewed. If there is a problem with someone's record the squadron is notified and either the problem is "fixed" or another person is deployed instead.

But hey, we are talking about the Navy here. And the Navy is known for doing things "the Navy way"...