for those of u who have not (yet) sprung for an ipad, heres an excel weight and balance spreadsheet that can be used to visualize cg changes resulting from movements in loads or fuel burn off.
i'm sure there are many weight and balance spreadsheets out there, but not sure how many there are with graphs.
constructive comments are welcomed and encouraged. pls let me know if i can help modify one for ur aircraft.
pls read the read me page.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/94343548/N426CP.xls
bill
This is good but I'm also impressed by the iPad app called CAP Preflight. It has ORM and W&B.
Good thing you're in a Wing where you're allowed to do W&B without having the form you do it on approved by NHQ. >:D
Looks good. I have one for my with with a "drop down" list of planes in the wing, so one sheet does all the planes in the wing...lemme know if you want a copy.
is it approved by nhq?
smile
yes i would like to see how u handle the drop down stuff. we r in the south georgia wing, with 2 aircraft on the coast, so keeping the empty weights and moments would not be too much trouble.
how do u insure that any changes to any of the aircraft's weights/moments are promulgated (i've been waiting all year to use that word) to all copies of the spreadsheet?
thanks,
bill
Quote from: starshippe on August 19, 2013, 01:23:38 PM
is it approved by nhq?
smile
yes i would like to see how u handle the drop down stuff. we r in the south georgia wing, with 2 aircraft on the coast, so keeping the empty weights and moments would not be too much trouble.
how do u insure that any changes to any of the aircraft's weights/moments are promulgated (i've been waiting all year to use that word) to all copies of the spreadsheet?
thanks,
bill
Dropbox, trying to migrate to our wing Google Drive, but slow there...our Stan/Eval Guy is also our Maint guy, but empty weights/moments don't change all that often actually.
Sometimes I look in the back seat, and if it's empty, I find I can do a lightening-fast W&B. If I notice the right seat is also empty, the calculations go even faster.
It takes me much longer if I notice people in the back, or when someone has violated policy and filled a C-182's tanks all the way up.
Calculating takeoff performance seems to take me much longer, as well, on short, high runways, and/or if it's hot outside. It's weird, but if I have 5,000' of runway on a winter's day, solo, in a C172, I can do W&B and performance calcs incredibly quickly. Then I waste time checking weather, NOTAMS, and thumbing through bold-face, just to kill time until launch.
This is a cool tool, and will help off-set my apparent reduced mental acuity when faced with people entering the airplane, hot days, and shortened runways. It is nicely done, thank you.
For ORM; once you've done 5 or 6, you've done them all, unless you forgot to save copies for future use.
Quote from: SunDog on August 20, 2013, 03:16:24 AM
For ORM; once you've done 5 or 6, you've done them all, unless you forgot to save copies for future use.
This mentality is why we keep having mishaps.
Complacency .. Kills.
You got that right. . .always worth hearing and considering again. I think my point was missed, however. Martha Lunken can have the stage for me, regarding ORM - see this month's Flying magazine.
FWIW, I think ORM has value, in situations it's suited to. And it can be a minor hazard, as well. Finite time, great weather, hot day - let's check the TO distance again, shall we? All else being " perfect", a better use of time.
You're seriously trying to make the argument that ORM is an impediment?
It's a mindset, not a form, and those who think they "know better" often find themselves completing 78's instead of 108's.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 20, 2013, 04:00:56 AM
It's a mindset, not a form, and those who think they "know better" often find themselves completing 78's instead of 108's.
:clap:
Uh, no. That's not what I said. . .geez, there weren't THAT many words in the post. . .Last try; filling out the FORM can SOMETIMES be a waste of time, and a MINOR impediment, when it occupies finite time better spent on other prep.
Again, CAP has an ORM form, of some value, but not universal in merit or utilty, and dorking with it can occasionally be a waste of time, situationally dependent. When that situation obtains is determined by the same judgement that would be used to enter the subjective values on the form.
If a pilot retains several copies that suit some common situations, he may save time, time that may be useful for a myriad of worthwhile safety related endeavors. Managing time is an aspect of risk mangement. . .on second thought, maybe you should take a pass on reading Martha's article. . .
Yes, managing time is important, that doesn't mean sacrificing required and critical phases of flight, which include preparation.
If I caught a pilot using a pre-filled ORM he'd have some remedial training to do before he flew a CAP aircraft again. That is
essentially falsifying a document, one which is not optional, and is considered by CAP to critical to flight safety. That you'd do that is bad enough, that you'd actually say it out loud and then try to justify it is worse.
If you don't have the time to give the ORM process the thought it requires, FOR EACH FLIGHT, you don't have to time fly a CAP airplane.
Period.
ur very welcome. i am glad u find it useful.
and thanks for the kind words.
pls let me know if i can help modify it for ur aircraft.
bill
Quote from: Eclipse on August 20, 2013, 05:18:14 AM
Yes, managing time is important, that doesn't mean sacrificing required and critical phases of flight, which include preparation.
If I caught a pilot using a pre-filled ORM he'd have some remedial training to do before he flew a CAP aircraft again. That is
essentially falsifying a document, one which is not optional, and is considered by CAP to critical to flight safety. That you'd do that is bad enough, that you'd actually say it out loud and then try to justify it is worse.
If you don't have the time to give the ORM process the thought it requires, FOR EACH FLIGHT, you don't have to time fly a CAP airplane.
Period.
Citation?
I'd be inclined to check out the spreadsheet calculations a little closer, myself. It appears that the author has some kind of issues with the keyboard and who knows what kind of syntax errors might be lurking in that spreadsheet.
Appearance is everything. Because in many cases, that's all you've got to go on. Unfortunately, books do get judged by a cover at times.
Quote from: Eclipse on August 20, 2013, 05:18:14 AM
Yes, managing time is important, that doesn't mean sacrificing required and critical phases of flight, which include preparation.
If I caught a pilot using a pre-filled ORM he'd have some remedial training to do before he flew a CAP aircraft again. That is
essentially falsifying a document, one which is not optional, and is considered by CAP to critical to flight safety. That you'd do that is bad enough, that you'd actually say it out loud and then try to justify it is worse.
If you don't have the time to give the ORM process the thought it requires, FOR EACH FLIGHT, you
don't have to time fly a CAP airplane.
U read a little selectively sometimes, U know? One last try, then I go do something useful, like wax the cat or fold dishes. . . . ORM process good; the ORM form sometimes not worth the the time. Not same thing, understand?
Period.
Understood.
The form is not optional, and may not be "reused" from one sortie to another, whether you value the process or not.
Clear?
I just checked the CAPF 104 to ensure that my recollection is accurate, and found that there are two check boxes for ORM form, one for Brief, and one for Debrief. It seems to be a hard requirement, every single time. I know that the last several times I gone flying on a mission, the ORM form has been a significant discussion.
I fly in California, and we start every single flight with 30 points on the ORM form (mountains). Adding in the next 10-30 points (turbulence and density altitude) comes quickly. That's halfway to Moderate risk, and we still haven't talked about the Human, Machine, or Mission factors. ORM is VERY important here.
Quote from: SarDragon on August 21, 2013, 05:53:10 AM
I just checked the CAPF 104 to ensure that my recollection is accurate, and found that there are two check boxes for ORM form, one for Brief, and one for Debrief. It seems to be a hard requirement, every single time. I know that the last several times I gone flying on a mission, the ORM form has been a significant discussion.
Risk analysis for flight operations is also required by CAPR 62-1, specifically directed to use the ORM form found in the AIF.
http://www.capmembers.com/safety/authorized_activities_rm_worksheets/ (http://www.capmembers.com/safety/authorized_activities_rm_worksheets/)
The lack of ORM discussion / confirmation with the FRO was recently noted as a significant gap in CAP's procedures by CAP-USAF during
my wing's SAV. Both the LRADO and his boss were fairly surprised that ORM was not discussed during checklists and will be recommending that CAP add this to the procedure.
I'm still looking for a reference that the ORM form is mandatory for every flight...
Quote from: JeffDG on August 21, 2013, 10:55:14 AM
I'm still looking for a reference that the ORM form is mandatory for every flight...
Quote from: CAPR 60-31-11. Operational Risk Management. The determination to employ CAP resources is a serious one, and should be made carefully, with all personnel fully aware of the associated risks. All CAP members will apply the appropriate level of Operational Risk Management (ORM) and risk mitigation techniques to all events. Additional training and information on ORM is available on the NHQ Safety website.
For flying events, it's a check box on CAPF 104, the required briefing form, indicating that the ORM form has been completed.
Quote from: CAPR 60-3, para 1-16.d(3)Aircrews will not self-dispatch; they must be properly released, even remotely via phone or other means if necessary, and noted appropriately on a CAPF 104, Mission Flight Plan/Briefing Form; 107, Flight Operations Log; and other mission documents, as appropriate. Signatures are not required on the CAPF 104, but the CAPF 104 must note who briefed and released the crew accordingly.
Quote from: SarDragon on August 21, 2013, 11:13:26 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on August 21, 2013, 10:55:14 AM
I'm still looking for a reference that the ORM form is mandatory for every flight...
Quote from: CAPR 60-31-11. Operational Risk Management. The determination to employ CAP resources is a serious one, and should be made carefully, with all personnel fully aware of the associated risks. All CAP members will apply the appropriate level of Operational Risk Management (ORM) and risk mitigation techniques to all events. Additional training and information on ORM is available on the NHQ Safety website.
For flying events, it's a check box on CAPF 104, the required briefing form, indicating that the ORM form has been completed.
Quote from: CAPR 60-3, para 1-16.d(3)Aircrews will not self-dispatch; they must be properly released, even remotely via phone or other means if necessary, and noted appropriately on a CAPF 104, Mission Flight Plan/Briefing Form; 107, Flight Operations Log; and other mission documents, as appropriate. Signatures are not required on the CAPF 104, but the CAPF 104 must note who briefed and released the crew accordingly.
So, every box on the CAPF 104 must be checked off in order for a briefing to be complete then?
i made some additions and corrections to the conditional formatting for the baggage area cell backgrounds.
the updated version is on the drop box site. should show aug 21 in b2.
bill
Quote from: JeffDG on August 21, 2013, 11:25:34 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on August 21, 2013, 11:13:26 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on August 21, 2013, 10:55:14 AM
I'm still looking for a reference that the ORM form is mandatory for every flight...
Quote from: CAPR 60-31-11. Operational Risk Management. The determination to employ CAP resources is a serious one, and should be made carefully, with all personnel fully aware of the associated risks. All CAP members will apply the appropriate level of Operational Risk Management (ORM) and risk mitigation techniques to all events. Additional training and information on ORM is available on the NHQ Safety website.
For flying events, it's a check box on CAPF 104, the required briefing form, indicating that the ORM form has been completed.
Quote from: CAPR 60-3, para 1-16.d(3)Aircrews will not self-dispatch; they must be properly released, even remotely via phone or other means if necessary, and noted appropriately on a CAPF 104, Mission Flight Plan/Briefing Form; 107, Flight Operations Log; and other mission documents, as appropriate. Signatures are not required on the CAPF 104, but the CAPF 104 must note who briefed and released the crew accordingly.
So, every box on the CAPF 104 must be checked off in order for a briefing to be complete then?
Everything that applies, and ORM always applies. Why would you NOT want to apply ORM to a flight?
Quote from: SarDragon on August 22, 2013, 12:02:54 AM
Quote from: JeffDG on August 21, 2013, 11:25:34 PM
Quote from: SarDragon on August 21, 2013, 11:13:26 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on August 21, 2013, 10:55:14 AM
I'm still looking for a reference that the ORM form is mandatory for every flight...
Quote from: CAPR 60-31-11. Operational Risk Management. The determination to employ CAP resources is a serious one, and should be made carefully, with all personnel fully aware of the associated risks. All CAP members will apply the appropriate level of Operational Risk Management (ORM) and risk mitigation techniques to all events. Additional training and information on ORM is available on the NHQ Safety website.
For flying events, it's a check box on CAPF 104, the required briefing form, indicating that the ORM form has been completed.
Quote from: CAPR 60-3, para 1-16.d(3)Aircrews will not self-dispatch; they must be properly released, even remotely via phone or other means if necessary, and noted appropriately on a CAPF 104, Mission Flight Plan/Briefing Form; 107, Flight Operations Log; and other mission documents, as appropriate. Signatures are not required on the CAPF 104, but the CAPF 104 must note who briefed and released the crew accordingly.
So, every box on the CAPF 104 must be checked off in order for a briefing to be complete then?
Everything that applies, and ORM always applies. Why would you NOT want to apply ORM to a flight?
Never said I wouldn't.
What I'm saying is that filling out the form is not mandatory.
Quote from: JeffDG on August 22, 2013, 12:51:50 AM
What I'm saying is that filling out the form is not mandatory.
CAPR 62-1 19 DEC 2012, Page 8
"
b. CAP commanders, activity directors, safety directors and/or safety officers, shall
reference the list of Risk Management analyses for CAP activities available on the National CAP
Safety web page [Authorized Activity RM Worksheets] at http://www.capmembers.com/safety/. (http://www.capmembers.com/safety/.)
CAP leaders are required to use these forms to quantify and mitigate risk during CAP activities
in conjunction with required Operational Risk Safety Briefings. If an RM sheet is not available
for specific activity, it is expected that the blank RM worksheet on the National Safety web page
will be utilized for all activities and sub-activities prior to the activities commencement"http://www.capmembers.com/safety/authorized_activities_rm_worksheets/ (http://www.capmembers.com/safety/authorized_activities_rm_worksheets/) as of 21 AUG 2013
"(Risk Management analyses for flight operations, as required by CAPR 62-1, will be completed using the Risk Management worksheet in the Aircraft Information File (AIF) or the Risk Management tool in WMIRS to assess the GO/NO-GO status of the planned flight activity.)
There you go. I just didn't dig deep enough. ICUT training was calling me.
I upload it when I'm asked, or I remember. It comes up on SAREX sorties, where air ops will remind us - but quite often (really, the vast majority of the time) we (my Wing) don't do the form. Just talking about the form now, not the actual evalution of risk. We are checking weather, maintenance, hazards, self-check, etc., like most pilots have always done.
I have a "severe VFR conditions" canned version, and a couple others, for diffrent situations. I think someone from CA said they have a partially canned form, based on always dealing with mountains. I dunno, sounds sensible to me. It (the form) seems useful, situationally. . . like most tools, it doesn't stand-alone, or work well in a vacuum. The cites here indicate it's manadatory (the form, I mean), but it seems more honored in the breach than the observance. I'm not qualified to debate the rules, just talking merits (of the form).
I can get the same score on two missions, and decide to fly one, but not the other - once I took off in front of an advancing cold front, late afternoon. No immediate weather risk (many hours of good VMC), but I knew I might get trapped out, away from home base. Went anyway, because it was a real mission. Took plenty of quarters for the vending machines, and blasted off. And spent the night in an airport lounge, once the sortie was complete, and waited out the frontal passage through the wee hours. The weather had been great in my search area, and where I terminated. Just no way to get back west safely. Ops knew what was what, was OK with my Plan B.
If it had been a training mission, I wouldn't have gone, though - would have trapped myself and the airplane, depriving the Wing of one valuable, and one scruffy, asset for the night. I try not to get religious about these things - they are often codifications of things that people have been doing for decades, or processes subsituting for judgement. Good to keep an open mind, for sure. I think I have, but also good not to be blind to the flaws in process. My final go/no go isn't likely to to be determined by the score on the ORM form. Most of the time, really, almost always, everything I've done up through pre-flight will serve my decision - I already know if I'm going, or not going, before the form comes to mind. BUT, on a close call, borderline, I can see value in putting a numeric score on a category you feel hinky about - maybe tip you into the "not today" mode.
Mental gymnastics won't change the fact that the form is required for every flight. If your wing is lax about completing them,
the proper course for a mature adult is to point our the inconsistency and failure to follow procure instead of
trying to justify an incorrect position.
Nothing puts our people and resources at risk more then members who "know better".
I dunno; I think there may be some things that put our people more at risk. . . not having ADS-B hardware is more likely to kill me than omitting the ORM form upload, I think. By the way, do the rules say you gotta upload it, or just complete it? Not asking you to do the leg work/research, but just in case you happen to know off the top of your head?
And I truly do believe you, that CAP requires the form for every flight (I think they use it for other activities, too?) It looks like you, or another poster, dug through the necessaries to confirm that.
Anyway, I'll have to find a way to live with myself, even though I won't be busting my COC's chops about enforcing it.