Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations

Started by Okayish Aviator, August 04, 2018, 08:16:51 PM

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xyzzy

Quote from: CAP9907 on August 31, 2018, 11:49:03 PM
And IMO, there is absolutely no reason we should adopt the sage/brown/flavor of the day boots. Is wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?
I prefer to buy boots locally, rather than put up with the hassle of sending boots back and forth until I find a pair that fits well enough (and if I were buying locally, maybe I would have found some that fit even better a half size different, or in the brand in the next aisle). From that point of view, black is best, because so many public safety professionals wear them. Coyote brown is pretty good too, especially if the people evaluating uniform compliance don't have any scientific color-measuring equipment.

The nearest Air Force base that I  might be able to purchase uniforms at is 180 miles away.

Fubar

Quote from: CAP9907 on August 31, 2018, 11:49:03 PMIs wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?

That suggests our uniforms are designed based upon mission requirements, which they are not.

Nick

I remember a wise, old CAP Lt Colonel who once mocked up a pair of OG ACUs with blue tapes and patches. Probably the best looking uniform I've seen to date, that all members could wear because it is not nor ever has been an official military uniform. But it would be too practical hence why it'll never go anywhere.
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy Emeritus

CAP9907

Quote from: Fubar on September 01, 2018, 01:03:01 AM
Quote from: CAP9907 on August 31, 2018, 11:49:03 PMIs wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?

That suggests our uniforms are designed based upon mission requirements, which they are not.

Unfortunately, I could not agree more with your statement.
21 yrs of service

Our Members Code of Conduct can be found here:   http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0

Hawk200

Quote from: CAP9907 on August 31, 2018, 11:49:03 PMAnd IMO, there is absolutely no reason we should adopt the sage/brown/flavor of the day boots. Is wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?
I understand having some differences, but don't see the need to go drastically different with black boots. If OCPs are approved for CAP, we'd probably still have full color patches, and some pretty different nametapes.

The black boots with ABUs don't really look good. I've seen the fakers wearing black boots with ACUs, and it it's pretty bad. We don't want that association. It's tacky, and the ones I see doing it are trying to get discounts or freebies.

I think insignia difference is all that is necessary. The have been posts on here about people finding coyote boots in Walmart pretty inexpensive, and Walmarts are pretty common. Go with the stuff that still looks uniform instead of something kludged.

I don't want anything that needs to be shined either. Shined boots are just not necessary with a field uniform.

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 03:47:10 PM
Quote from: CAP9907 on August 31, 2018, 11:49:03 PMAnd IMO, there is absolutely no reason we should adopt the sage/brown/flavor of the day boots. Is wearing plain black boots really that much of an issue to anyone conducting any of our missions?
I understand having some differences, but don't see the need to go drastically different with black boots. If OCPs are approved for CAP, we'd probably still have full color patches, and some pretty different nametapes.

The black boots with ABUs don't really look good. I've seen the fakers wearing black boots with ACUs, and it it's pretty bad. We don't want that association. It's tacky, and the ones I see doing it are trying to get discounts or freebies.

I think insignia difference is all that is necessary. The have been posts on here about people finding coyote boots in Walmart pretty inexpensive, and Walmarts are pretty common. Go with the stuff that still looks uniform instead of something kludged.

I don't want anything that needs to be shined either. Shined boots are just not necessary with a field uniform.

I really would prefer the switch to Coyote for the AF style uniforms. For those who say they get too dirty, or are impossible to clean. I say that's grade A Oscar Meyers. These boots have been worn for the last 10 years, and I've had to clean them several times but they are still more than serviceable and I've used them way harder than any other pair of CAP boots I've worn. I think we'd be fine with the swap. Of course Coyote wouldn't work well with the Corporate Field Uniforms, but those can still wear black boots.

Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Luis R. Ramos

The reason those of you say the "black boots look tacky with OCP" is that you HAVE been USING Coyote Browns with OCP for years and are NOT willing to use different. If you were starting from scratch you would NOT give a darn!


Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Hawk200

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 02, 2018, 04:34:44 PM
The reason those of you say the "black boots look tacky with OCP" is that you HAVE been USING Coyote Browns with OCP for years and are NOT willing to use different. If you were starting from scratch you would NOT give a darn!

I'm not willing to use different, because it's not necessary to do so. Our uniforms have been based on military uniforms, and that's NOT starting from scratch. Insignia is one thing, changing major components is something different.

I just don't want CAP members looking like they kludged something together out of a surplus store.

I've had military members ask me why CAP members are wearing black boots with ABUs, and explained the distinctiveness rule. Many of them think it's stupid, and looks "wannabe."

I don't want a "wannabe" appearance.

Okayish Aviator

I'm willing to wear black boots if that's what it ends up being, BUT, I would prefer coyote boots. Either way... It is more visually similar and aside from the change itself, there aren't many reasons not to do it when this uniform change happens. Not everyone who wants the coyote boots has been using them, even if there are a few who have.
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.


Eclipse

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 05:15:16 PM
I just don't want CAP members looking like they kludged something together out of a surplus store.

That shipped sailed a loooong time ago, and ain't comin' back any time soon.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 05:15:16 PM
I've had military members ask me why CAP members are wearing black boots with ABUs, and explained the distinctiveness rule. Many of them think it's stupid, and looks "wannabe."

Military members, especially those inclined to ask, think a lot of things.  So?
Explain and move on.

As it stands, a member can buy a single pair of black boots and wear them with every multiform CAP has.
Adding another color of boot purely for affectation just increases the costs to members with no mission justification.

There's also the non-trivial reality that for the majority of CAP members, including cadets, a pair of
New Balance "Dad Sneakers" would be much more appropriate to the actual mission then boots,
as by far the majority of members never leave the comfort of hard tarmac, and even the more active
GTMs only do so on a fairly irregular basis.

"That Others May Zoom"

Hawk200

Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 05:33:10 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 05:15:16 PM
I just don't want CAP members looking like they kludged something together out of a surplus store.

That shipped sailed a loooong time ago, and ain't comin' back any time soon.

Not really.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 05:33:10 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 05:15:16 PM
I've had military members ask me why CAP members are wearing black boots with ABUs, and explained the distinctiveness rule. Many of them think it's stupid, and looks "wannabe."

Military members, especially those inclined to ask, think a lot of things.  So?
Explain and move on.

This mindset is a problem. Blowing them off with "So?" Isn't really a wise idea. We'd like the military to take us seriously, not snicker at us. What happens at the lower levels is happening at the higher ones too. We just don't hear it from the higher levels, but we see it in the policy that they dictate.

Considering there's a lot of military resources we make use of, their view of CAP does carry a significant amount of weight.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 05:33:10 PM
As it stands, a member can buy a single pair of black boots and wear them with every multiform CAP has.
Adding another color of boot purely for affectation just increases the costs to members with no mission justification.

So you think it's an affectation to adopt the same uniform ensemble that the Army and Air Force are using?  How many other uniform combos are they likely to use boots with? Most people with one utility uniform type aren't changing it up with other ones. Since two service branches are now using this ensemble, coyote boots are going to be around for a while. Even the Air Force decided to do it completely, they're not even using different color undershirts, belts, hats, and socks like they did with the BDU.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 05:33:10 PM
There's also the non-trivial reality that for the majority of CAP members, including cadets, a pair of
New Balance "Dad Sneakers" would be much more appropriate to the actual mission then boots,
as by far the majority of members never leave the comfort of hard tarmac, and even the more active
GTMs only do so on a fairly irregular basis.

A valid point, but we're not wearing uniforms in which that kind of footwear would be appropriate.

Overall, I feel that only a few minor insignia differences would present the most appropriate appearance. When the public sees CAP,  they should see professionalism. I don't think changing stuff up is going to accomplish that.

Eclipse

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 06:31:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 05:33:10 PM
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 05:15:16 PM
I've had military members ask me why CAP members are wearing black boots with ABUs, and explained the distinctiveness rule. Many of them think it's stupid, and looks "wannabe."

Military members, especially those inclined to ask, think a lot of things.  So?
Explain and move on.

This mindset is a problem. Blowing them off with "So?" Isn't really a wise idea. We'd like the military to take us seriously, not snicker at us. What happens at the lower levels is happening at the higher ones too. We just don't hear it from the higher levels, but we see it in the policy that they dictate.

Considering there's a lot of military resources we make use of, their view of CAP does carry a significant amount of weight.

I didn't say "blow them off" I said "explain and move on"  - we have far too many members that get themselves wrapped around the axle with
the military, be it uniforms, saluting, etc., many of these same members who will have a single, or limited interaction with the military
at best.

What garners CAP respect is behavior and execution, not uniforms.  I guarantee you that members who show up, do their jobs and leave
with little fanfare or drama will garner a lot more respect then those same members looking "tight and right" in a given uniform
and writing checks they can't cash, causing drama, or generally not doing their jobs.

The above isn't mutually exclusive, of course, but the former is what is important.
Quote from: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 06:31:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 05:33:10 PM
As it stands, a member can buy a single pair of black boots and wear them with every multiform CAP has.
Adding another color of boot purely for affectation just increases the costs to members with no mission justification.

So you think it's an affectation to adopt the same uniform ensemble that the Army and Air Force are using?

Yes.  And I've said so any number of times.  The ABU only serves affectation (i.e. affinity) with the USAF.  It is a mission
detriment in regards to ES, and defeats its one reason for existing when members at all levels wear it improperly.

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 06:31:55 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 05:33:10 PM
There's also the non-trivial reality that for the majority of CAP members, including cadets, a pair of
New Balance "Dad Sneakers" would be much more appropriate to the actual mission then boots,
as by far the majority of members never leave the comfort of hard tarmac, and even the more active
GTMs only do so on a fairly irregular basis.

A valid point, but we're not wearing uniforms in which that kind of footwear would be appropriate.

Why?  Appearance?  Again that's affectation not function.  You blouse pants to keep out critters and moisture.
neither of which are a "risk" outside field operations.

Want to increase the number of cadets involved in ES?  Require GTM3 to wear boots bloused.

"That Others May Zoom"

Hawk200

Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 06:48:34 PM
I didn't say "blow them off" I said "explain and move on"  - we have far too many members that get themselves wrapped around the axle with the military, be it uniforms, saluting, etc., many of these same members who will have a single, or limited interaction with the military at best.
With any response of "So?" you're blowing them off. Just because you're not saying it to their faces doesn't mean you're not. It shows that their views are unimportant.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 06:48:34 PMWhat garners CAP respect is behavior and execution, not uniforms.  I guarantee you that members who show up, do their jobs and leave with little fanfare or drama will garner a lot more respect then those same members looking "tight and right" in a given uniform and writing checks they can't cash, causing drama, or generally not doing their jobs.

The above isn't mutually exclusive, of course, but the former is what is important.
What is more impressive is when a professional appearance is presented, and professional behavior is displayed. One or the other can increase opinion, but why count on only one or the other? Both would probably increase awareness and support of CAP. And potentially increase the rolls as well. Never a bad thing.

Both are important. You know as well as I do that you aren't going to trust someone that looks like a rag bag, regardless of what their competence is.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 06:48:34 PM
Yes.  And I've said so any number of times.  The ABU only serves affectation (i.e. affinity) with the USAF.  It is a mission
detriment in regards to ES, and defeats its one reason for existing when members at all levels wear it improperly.

I've never seen it as a mission detriment. I will agree that it's an issue when worn improperly. But, improper wear is not a valid reason to not use it.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 06:48:34 PM
Why?  Appearance?  Again that's affectation not function.  You blouse pants to keep out critters and moisture. neither of which are a "risk" outside field operations.

Want to increase the number of cadets involved in ES?  Require GTM3 to wear boots bloused.

Not sure I'm following here. Are you saying it's affectation to not want sneakers? I think I missed something here.

Not following as to wearing boots bloused either. Everyone is blousing boots with that particular type of field uniform.

If, or when, CAP gets authorized the OCP uniform, I would hope it would be simple differences for CAP, not drastic ones. The color patches will probably look just fine with it, just go with some different color nametapes that won't clash, and call it done.

The way it's been done before is "CAP distinctive insignia" (at least before the ABU,) not "CAP wears a few parts but it looks totally different." That maintained the association with the Air Force, which is pretty important to CAP's existence.

Eclipse

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 02, 2018, 09:59:46 PM
Not following as to wearing boots bloused either. Everyone is blousing boots with that particular type of field uniform.
Well, first I can tell you from personal observation "not so much", but that gets to the proper wear, and is also
the case with the ABU.

Up until 2014, neither boots, nor blousing, was required with the CFU, and lots of people wore normal street
shoes with it.  I don't recall Superman needing to reverse the rotation of the earth to fix the problems it caused.

You may have a different CAP experience, and mine is more likely in the same direction, but on the whole, the
majority of CAP members will never encounter a member of the military while in multiform, never set foot on a military
base, and the issue of their distinctiveness, or lack thereof, never comes up.

And for those that do encounter them, they are more then likely CAP-USAF people who already know the score.

Most members will never participate in a mission large enough to have anyone else but CAP members in the
room, and when there are large, multi-agency activities, the ICP staff is likely to be in golf shirts as that is what the
majority of the other agencies wear as their only uniform.

On the rare occasion the issue comes up, CAP needs to be polite and then move on - agreeing with
"how poor the boots look" which is a subjective opinion at best, because seriously who really cares,
is as unprofessional as any appearance issues that don't exist.

"We're an auxiliary, we have to purchase all our own equipment, and this is what is allowed."

It is somewhat amusing, that in a CAP paradigm where at any given activity there can be nine people
in "uniform", all doing the exact same duty, wearing nine different types of clothing and colors, with the
ranking member wearing a realtor's jacket, and people think boot color is the issue with professional appearance.

As of writing this, there are 3 field uniforms, 2 flights suits, 2 service uniforms, and 3 different approved golf shirts.
That's 10 different combos, all approved for wear at any time (or at least argued so and done).

It's not the boots that are the issue.  It's the wardrobe.

"That Others May Zoom"

Hawk200

Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 10:30:20 PM
Well, first I can tell you from personal observation "not so much", but that gets to the proper wear, and is also
the case with the ABU.
People should be following the standard. I don't think I've ever seen a CAP member that didn't have bloused boots in BDUs. If you have, why didn't you correct it?

Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 06:48:34 PM
Up until 2014, neither boots, nor blousing, was required with the CFU, and lots of people wore normal street shoes with it.  I don't recall Superman needing to reverse the rotation of the earth to fix the problems it caused.

Not really aware of any problems that caused. If they wore it as permitted by the book, there shouldn't be any issue.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 06:48:34 PMYou may have a different CAP experience, and mine is more likely in the same direction, but on the whole, the majority of CAP members will never encounter a member of the military while in multiform, never set foot on a military base, and the issue of their distinctiveness, or lack thereof, never comes up.

And for those that do encounter them, they are more then likely CAP-USAF people who already know the score.
Majority of senior members might not, the same can't really be said of cadets. Many activities are on military installations, military aircraft may visit, cadets often work at airshows that have some kind of military display, etc. That's the reason many cadets join in the first place.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 06:48:34 PM
Most members will never participate in a mission large enough to have anyone else but CAP members in the
room, and when there are large, multi-agency activities, the ICP staff is likely to be in golf shirts as that is what the majority of the other agencies wear as their only uniform.

On the rare occasion the issue comes up, CAP needs to be polite and then move on - agreeing with
"how poor the boots look" which is a subjective opinion at best, because seriously who really cares,
is as unprofessional as any appearance issues that don't exist.
Those other agencies have their own uniform standards, and should be concerned about adhering to it. It doesn't take genius to note that someone from another agency isn't "uniform." We kind of look at those things. It's part of our background of "attention to detail." They do the same thing.

Quote from: Eclipse on September 02, 2018, 06:48:34 PM"We're an auxiliary, we have to purchase all our own equipment, and this is what is allowed."

It is somewhat amusing, that in a CAP paradigm where at any given activity there can be nine people
in "uniform", all doing the exact same duty, wearing nine different types of clothing and colors, with the
ranking member wearing a realtor's jacket, and people think boot color is the issue with professional appearance.

As of writing this, there are 3 field uniforms, 2 flights suits, 2 service uniforms, and 3 different approved golf shirts.
That's 10 different combos, all approved for wear at any time (or at least argued so and done).

It's not the boots that are the issue.  It's the wardrobe.
The excess of uniform types has been addressed in the past. I think that such variation could be part of our image being haphazard. But, those issues aren't valid reason to adopt a major deviation from the common uniform. Those deviations don't help the issue, they just add to it.

I'm all for eliminating a few items. Looks like the jumpsuit isn't in the latest manual. No reason to have two different styles of golf shirts (or even have them at all, but that's my take.) Personally, I'd give up rank insignia on the flight suit if it means we could all wear the sage green, they're pretty generic these days, and I don't like the plastic rank anyway. Some of the jackets in there I don't even see the point of. Make a corporate equivalent to the military variants, eliminate everything else, call it done.

OCP adoption is something that people are thinking about. it shows on this board, and I know people outside of here that are excited about them. It would be nice to have some well thought out ideas once it comes up at the top of the chain. A good thought out proposal may see faster adoption than "Oh, we can get that? Uh..., how we gonna do it?"

Nick

Quote from: Eclipse link=topic=23431.msg418193#msg418193
It's not the boots that are the issue.  It's the wardrobe.

Agreed. Blue field uniform, aviator service uniform, corporate dress uniform for everyone. Problem solved. Right?

I'll start the timer for the first objection.
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy Emeritus

CAP9907

Quote from: Nick on September 03, 2018, 01:24:05 AM
Quote from: Eclipse link=topic=23431.msg418193#msg418193
It's not the boots that are the issue.  It's the wardrobe.

Agreed. Blue field uniform, aviator service uniform, corporate dress uniform for everyone. Problem solved. Right?

I'll start the timer for the first objection.

Certainly won't get an objection from me!!
21 yrs of service

Our Members Code of Conduct can be found here:   http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0

Hawk200

Quote from: Nick on September 03, 2018, 01:24:05 AM
Quote from: Eclipse link=topic=23431.msg418193#msg418193
It's not the boots that are the issue.  It's the wardrobe.

Agreed. Blue field uniform, aviator service uniform, corporate dress uniform for everyone. Problem solved. Right?

Nope. It'll create more. I have never understood  the desire to disconnect Civil Air Patrol from the Air Force. Uniforms are part of the connection. CAP without the Air Force wouldn't be much.

I imagine this thread will be locked shortly. Went from discussion to dispute.

Gunsotsu

This thread has gotten over-complicated. This should be the policy:

Cadets wear the same uniform as USAF within one year of adoption. Seniors do not wear USAF uniforms, corporate only.  Adopt navy blue or OD green OCP style for field uniforms. Done.

"But our membership will dwindle if seniors can't AF cosplay!"

So what. Those are the most dangerous members as it is, the organization would be better off without them.

"But we're part of the Total Force!"

Keep believing that while both the average Ma Blue airman and the American public have no idea who we are.

Okayish Aviator

Quote from: Hawk200 on September 03, 2018, 12:34:47 PM
Quote from: Nick on September 03, 2018, 01:24:05 AM
Quote from: Eclipse link=topic=23431.msg418193#msg418193
It's not the boots that are the issue.  It's the wardrobe.

Agreed. Blue field uniform, aviator service uniform, corporate dress uniform for everyone. Problem solved. Right?

Nope. It'll create more. I have never understood  the desire to disconnect Civil Air Patrol from the Air Force. Uniforms are part of the connection. CAP without the Air Force wouldn't be much.

I imagine this thread will be locked shortly. Went from discussion to dispute.

I agree. I created this thread for polite discourse. If you don't like that we wear AF-style uniforms, fine... that's your right to have that opinion, and you're free to only wear corporate uniforms yourself but this thread is about discussing making meaningful changes to the AF style uniforms (OCP, ABU, etc.). Lets try to keep it polite... please.

I'm under no illusion that our job differs from what active/reserve/guard AF does, but the AF is our adopted branch and as such it makes sense to wear their uniforms when able. I think many forget that the reason we have corporate is because there are instances where it really just makes sense. Each uniform has their place and for what we do, they all make sense.


Getting back to things though:

So what I've seen so far is many don't want a flag patch because we don't operate OCONUS. For that Id simply state that the reason I added it is as a national pride item. That said, in the sense of the reason some of that is worn on USAF utilities it makes sense whereas that was the only other reason I could  come up with. I'll remove it from my draft.

Boots are still split quite a bit. I don't have an opinion either way, but I do think that going Coyote would affect those who wear corporate AND USAF style uniforms. I'm going to leave it with both options in my draft to be chosen by a higher up once it's sent out. If I had to choose, I'd lean toward going Coyote... as we'd fit in a little better. Again, that would only affect USAF style utility uniforms. So, FDU, OCP. Corp still uses black, and black boots could still be worn with blues as is currently in there.

I really like what I've seen regarding patches. I like having a Wing or NCSA patch on the right panel, and squadron/unit patch on the left, with any tabs for military service over that patch and NSCA "tabs" over their respective NCSA patch on the right.

I know adding the name patch at the back of the hat as the AF is doing (and Army has been doing forever) may look a bit odd with the current tapes. I'm still on the fence about this, but it would be another "distinguishing" feature of a CAP OCP.

Speaking of tapes. I highly doubt we'd end up swapping tape color for another go around. I think this color is here to stay, at least for a good while. Keep in mind that the ultramarine looked goofy with the BDU's as well. As much as we all probably thought so, we were able to live with it. If I could chose a color myself, I'd go for the OCP tapes, but with white/silver lettering. That would still be distinctive but wouldn't look crazy. What say ye on that option?
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.