CAP Rank structure

[RiverAux]

I've listed all the various options I recall coming across.  If I've missed one, let me know and I'll add it in.  For all of these assume that ranks for Colonels and above will stay as is.

 

[ddelaney103]

You forgot "Flight Officers for all members except give commissioned grades for those currently holding command or higher echelon staff positions."

[RiverAux]

I'll modify the existing flight officer option.

[Sgt. Savage]

None of the above. NCO's should be allowed to promote.

[RiverAux]

You're saying that you want the current system in which only prior service NCOs become CAP NCOs, but that there should be some system under which they can advance in enlisted rank?

[ColonelJack]

You may have created a monster here, Dr. Frankenstein.   

Jack

[tribalelder]

Current system-- deflated slightly.

Mission related skills and professional appointments-when member quailifies to serve and serves in the mission skill or profession.  Pilot w/o passed form 5 and passed form 91 isn't a CAP pilot yet.

Scale back Major/LtColonel appointments-we have substantial #'s of each who aren't, weren't and shouldn't be in charge of anything. Vital question for those appointments-is candidate an IC, wing director, major project officer (like, say, encampment ?) or unit commander ? If no, never, over my dead body is response, keep 'em at Captain. 

Expand FO. Allow its use not just for 'graduating' cadets but also as place people who have little-to-no interest in CAP politics to opt out of politics.

[davedove]

I have no problem with the current system.  Of course, anything can be improved.  My thoughts would be to tweak the current system instead of a complete overhaul.

[MIKE]

None of the above.

[pixelwonk]

Keep mostly same system Flight Officers for all members except give commissioned grades for those currently holding command or higher echelon staff positions

Sort of, except that I'd feel better about letting commanders keep their grade, not unlike turning a wing commander's temporary appointment permanent.  This would be on the assumption that CAP has enhanced the Professional Development program to properly train individuals for leadership.  Otherwise, there's no benefit to having either grade system.

[ddelaney103]

Keep mostly same system Flight Officers for all members except give commissioned grades for those currently holding command or higher echelon staff positions

Sort of, except that I'd feel better about letting commanders keep their grade, not unlike turning a wing commander's temporary appointment permanent.  This would be on the assumption that CAP has enhanced the Professional Development program to properly train individuals for leadership.  Otherwise, there's no benefit to having either grade system.

The problem with that is we'll be hip deep in officers again.  My old sqdn had as least 6 former commanders of one sort or another.

[isuhawkeye]

any thoughs of having a unit manning document for all levels of CAP?  How many of each rank do we really need?

[Sgt. Savage]

You're saying that you want the current system in which only prior service NCOs become CAP NCOs, but that there should be some system under which they can advance in enlisted rank?

Not so much as I'm saying that there are too many chiefs and no indians to speak of. An "enlisted" corp provides a subordinate level that will never be in command. Why make everyone FOs or temporary grade... just thin out the officer pool and everything becomes easier.

[MIKE]

any thoughs of having a unit manning document for all levels of CAP?  How many of each rank do we really need?

I would like something like this, but I also favor up and out.

[ColonelJack]

I would like something like this, but I also favor up and out.

Out?  Out of CAP if you can't get promoted?  National's never going to buy into that ... they need your dues money too badly.

Jack

[Dragoon]

You're saying that you want the current system in which only prior service NCOs become CAP NCOs, but that there should be some system under which they can advance in enlisted rank?

Not so much as I'm saying that there are too many chiefs and no indians to speak of. An "enlisted" corp provides a subordinate level that will never be in command. Why make everyone FOs or temporary grade... just thin out the officer pool and everything becomes easier.

Yeah but.

1.  Having an NCO corps in theater creates a class system.  This works fine in the military, but not so well in CAP.  Every member is valuable, or at least they think they are.  Having to call a certain class of people "sir" forever just doesn't sit well with folks that haven't grown up in the military.  The NB discussed this issue a few years back, and came to the same conclusion.  It's a civilian thing.

2.  Today's CAP "officer" is tomorrow's NCO.  I may be the squadron commander for a year, but then decide to kick back and just be the squadron testing officer for a few years while I'm busy coaching my kid's little league.  Our roles are too flud in CAP to be stuck in caste or another.

3.  The flight officer thing is a nice compromise - it makes every one an officer, so no one feels slighted.  But, just like real Warrant Officers, FOs won't be expected to be particularly military (which many of our members don't want to be, like it or not.  And, since FOs would be a CAP only grade, it would eliminate any confusion with active duty guys.

Then if they want to lead or staff they get temporary commissioned grade which they give back when the job is done, created an incentive to apply for the tough jobs if you really want to be an officer and get the prestige and courtesies that come with it.  More people applying for the tough jobs = better quality folks IN the tough jobs, which helps us all.

[Dragoon]

any thoughs of having a unit manning document for all levels of CAP?  How many of each rank do we really need?

I would like something like this, but I also favor up and out.

You say this now, but when you want to take a break from doing a tough job, you won't want to get fired from CAP.

Many of our members step back because of personal stuff (you know, like family, jobs, etc) and take an easy job, but later they step back into tough jobs.

Up or out just doesn't fit the volunteer model.

However, a system of temporary grade DOES fit.  Give up the job, you stay in but give up the grade.

Kind of like up or out, but without the boot in your butt.  And you can always take the tough job later and get the grade back.

[pixelwonk]

Keep mostly same system Flight Officers for all members except give commissioned grades for those currently holding command or higher echelon staff positions

Sort of, except that I'd feel better about letting commanders keep their grade, not unlike turning a wing commander's temporary appointment permanent.  This would be on the assumption that CAP has enhanced the Professional Development program to properly train individuals for leadership.  Otherwise, there's no benefit to having either grade system.

The problem with that is we'll be hip deep in officers again.  My old sqdn had as least 6 former commanders of one sort or another.

Like you, I'd switch to Flight Officer grade happily; however, I'd respectfully remind you that a flight officer is by definition, still an officer sir.  FWIW, I don't see a few former commanders keeping their old grade as a huge problem. I see that as a cadre of advisers and instructors.

[Pylon]

I like the flight officer deal because it eliminates all of the confusion parallels people draw when they see a recognizable symbol on our collars/shoulders/hats.  Somebody sees Captain bars and any one of a number of assumptions may get drawn.  A Civil Air Patrol Lieutenant Colonel is not a commissioned officer, but the symbol easily induces members of the Armed Forces who aren't familiar with CAP to salute us and mistake us for real officers.  A Civil Air Patrol Lt Col does not necessary report to an officer with a higher rank/grade, nor does the job they are filling necessarily equate to the duties an average person would equate with a Lieutenant Colonel.   

We're CAP.  We have distinctive insignia for a reason -- so people don't confuse us for things we aren't.  But our grade insignia belies that distinction.  We know what it means to be a CAP Lieutenant Colonel or a CAP Captain within the organization.  However, to those who aren't familiar with CAP, using easily recognizable symbols that widely denote things that we are actually not doesn't make sense.  We may know the difference, but most others won't.

In addition, we have the issue of expecting a certain military rank to perform a certain level of responsibility within the organization.  One would naturally expect a Lt Col to be performing a command position or a high level director position at a headquarters, for example.  So people get thrown off when the Lt Col is the recently finished squadron commander who just wants to be the squadron testing officer or has no position at all.  With a proprietary CAP rank system, there are no outside stereotypes.  It wouldn't seem weird for a FO to be reporting to another FO - we're all members of the same lot, and our higher designations within FO just denote our long-term professional development and achievement.

We also remove the issue of whether or not to start former service members and others with special qualifications at particular advanced ranks.  The discussion has always been that a Major in the Air Force should be a Major in CAP, because the grade insignia we use reflects their former office.  Even though they may not have the level of knowledge I'd expect a Major in CAP to have of Civil Air Patrol and our unique culture, we give them advanced promotions.  Partly because of their advanced leadership ability, but also partly because... well, our rank/grade structures seem similar, so we should honor what they've earned elsewhere.   A CAP-proprietary system allows us to consider everybody for starting at the beginning, because CAP is unique and leaders of all ability and skill levels could effectively lead in a staff billet as a FO1.

A CAP-proprietary rank system solves all the issues we have with other systems that don't quite fit us the way that CAP uniquely works.  We keep pointing out different ways that officer ranks don't quite work the same way we do and it generates confusion, stigmas, stereotypes, expectations, and unnecessary drama.  We point out it's difficult for us to figure out why we don't have a true NCO corps to compliment our "officers" and how that NCO corps would work if we had one, or why it wouldn't work well in our current set-up.  We allow current and former service NCOs to retain their rank as CAP NCOs because they may not want to serve a "CAP officers" -- again, another stigma based soley on the insignia and title of the advancement structure we're using.  An articificially generated problem that wouldn't exist with a CAP proprietary grade system.

So each CAP member comes in as a FOC - Flight Officer Candidate and wears the CAP cutouts.  Upon Level I completion, they earn FO1.  They move through their professional development, which could be similar to what we have now, or even change some, and work their way up to various levels of Flight Officer.  Or call it something different.  Heck, call it CAP Member 1 - CAP Member 6, I don't care - I know others will and will find a decent term for it.  The point is that the title doesn't matter once we come up with our own system.

People think it would create a lot of confusion, but I don't think it would.  I think it would eliminate a lot of the confusion that we have right now.  It's pretty simple actually:      Members serve in a variety of staff positions, from squadron level staffers up to commanders at the highest echelon.  Their authority derives from their position.  The grade they earn is numbered 1 through 6 and is based upon their education and progression in the program as well as their time and experience in CAP.

[JC004]

I could go with flight officers.  I'd probably add the "Master Flight Officer" that the NB was talking about a while back and maybe "Super Awesome Flight Officer" (that would be mine).  I also like the Coast Guard Auxiliary system.

I have no special interest in being called any kind of military-style rank.  It just doesn't impact how I feel about myself.  I like shiny things (hold on, brb...I see something shiny on the other side of the room...YAY! A SHINY!), but I can start carrying change again...or my debit card is kind of shiny...