How often is a 2b issued and what exactally warrants one?

[Major Carrales]

As a Squadron Commander I have never has to use the "NUCLEAR OPTION" of a CAPF 2b...but, the time may come where I may have to use it.

Let us, my Brother and Sister CAP Officers, have an honest discussion that will be insightful and helpful to Commanders.

[Al Sayre]

I had to use it during my first weeks as a commander when I had a Cadet Officer who had stopped coming to meetings get out of hand and start threatening to keep and/or destroy CAP property if I didn't comply with his demands. 

I sent him the 2b by certified mail along with a letter explaining that if he failed to return the squadron property that he would be receiving a visit from the local Sheriff. 

There's a lot more to the story, but I won't air it on a public forum, so don't ask.

I am also considering using it to cut some deadwood in the squadron, specifically a few Cadets whose parents made them join, and seldom if ever attend, and when they do tend to be rather disruptive...

[JohnKachenmeister]

I've seen the 2B option used once.  Mostly disgruntled members quit coming and fail to renew. 

[capchiro]

The procedure for 2b is long and fraught with danger when one considers the appeal options of the one being 2bed.  That said, I have used one because a cadets membership expired and the mother was a sponsoring parent.  Accordingly, I had to 2b her as she no longer had a son in the program and was no longer eligible to be a sponsoring parent.  so, this was kind of an administrative 2b.  2b's are normally used for grievous matters and shouldn't be used lightly.  If someone is not attending or participating, it is sometimes best to let it ride and they sometimes see the light later on.  One needs to remember that all school activities take precedence over CAP and so during band season, I have a cadet that doesn't participate for 3-4 months at a time.  We need to remember that we are an influence in the lives of our members, even if for only a short time and we don't think they "get" the program.  It is amazing to see what happens over a period of years.  A cadet that seemed disinterested for 1-2 years may come back 5-10 years later and be a great senior member.  Being a legal officer at times, I have seen the 2b used mostly for situations where seniors were in trouble for hazing or otherwise bothering cadets.  This was usually after a warning, etc.  A non-active member may be transfered to a "ghost" squadron if there is one in the Wing or to the squadron at National and still be on the books for later if they decide that their life is in order enough for them to get active again.  I would use the 2b for only the most serious of problems and not for petty situations or because someone missed meetings or wasn't progressing satisfactorily.

[AlphaSigOU]

Leave the 2b as the last and final option when verbal admonitions and written reprimands fail.

[Pylon]

For those who lose interest in the program, the 2B really isn't the route to go.  For senior members, you can always convert them to Patron status.  If a cadet up and disappears and never comes back, you can always transfer them to your Wing holding squadron (i/e: NER-NY-000).  A 2B is a long and drawn out process and not intended for those types of personnel actions.


For the disruptive type, make sure you've explored every other possible action first, including verbal and written reprimands, demotion and/or suspension from CAP.  There should be a clear and documented history of escalating disciplinary actions for a habitually disruptive member.  This way, nobody can appeal and say that Member John Doe really was an upstanding member who slipped up once and suddenly you went full-on nuclear - you've got a documented history that shows lesser disciplinary action just won't work thus justifying a 2B action.

I've never been involved in any 2B action and I hope I never have to be.  From what I've heard from those who have, it's messy, it's long and drawn out, and they wish they didn't have to be involved with it.   That alone should be motivation to do your best to resolve problems before they get to that level, when at all possible.   

[SARMedTech]

As an EMT, I frequently spend 4-5 months a year in the Canadian Arctic, Alaska and Russia providing pre-hospital emergency care and med-evac dust offs in the oil fields there. Would I appear to someone to just not be all that hard working or committed to CAP and have someone come along and "disenroll" me? I love my job and I love CAP and I really would like to do both, but I wouldnt like the thought of getting my mail forwarded to be at our base camp and finding a letter stating that I had been demoted or dropped. I would hope that job requirements would be seen a little differently than just not showing up, not completing courses, etc. Any insights?

[Capt M. Sherrod]

SAR - I would hope/imagine that you CC knows that you are working and doesn't just 2b you for not being around.

In general response to the question of how often - I think it really boils down to the situation and the people involved.  The 2b is not just a "nuke".  There are 9 reasons for a 2b for cadets - only one of which allows for an appeal (misconduct), and there are 14 options for SM with only one of those being 'administrative' and therefore not subject to appeal.

While I am not inclined to file a 2b unless it is truly needed (having been previously and properly documented), there are situations where you have folks who have said they are no longer going to participate.  You need to sit down with those folks and find out why that is (there may be some local issues that need to be addressed).  If there are no issues, then administratively, if you need to get them off the roles, you use the Voluntary Resignation part of the 2b.  Moving them to a "ghost squadron" isn't always an option.

[Major Lord]

I have had a few experiences. in one , a cadet tried to run another cadet off the freeway with his car...twice, after being warned that murdering ones brother cadets was frowned upon....Fortunately, he voluntarily resigned before the 2B process could go through.

We had a Senior Member go "little league dad" on us, and make death threats against  seniors, cadets , etc. He wrote letters to the President, the Air Force, Etc. CAP initially did not offer our Squadron much support, instead trying to do everything to blow us off. We ended up contacting Dwight Wheless ( May he live forever in the Halls of Valhalla!) who set the legal big dogs in motion and 2b'd the senior. ( On a side note, the former SM tried to come back to meetings as a "parent, not a member" and the process started nearly from scratch again!) I could write a book about that one!

If there is anyway to avoid a 2B, an IG complaint, etc, do it! Do not rely on the good will or prudence of your leadership for support. Be prepared to suffer for several years. Get your own attorney in the process from the start, and keep every single document, E-Mail, note, witness statement, etc.. You may need to obtain a restraining order. You will need to justify every statement and position you have made or taken by regulation. I had to provide a brief to CAP as to where we had the authority to deny promotions to cadets that have not attended meetings!

The cases I have been involved in were not even borderline. Can you imagine what they will do to you if you tried to 2B a member for one of the authorized reasons, like illiteracy or perversion? ( This is Northern California, what constitutes illiteracy or perversion here anyway?)

Capt. Lord

[capchiro]

SAR, This is a voluntary organization and you can only give what you can give.  I would rather have you half time than not at all.  Think of ACP along the lines of a career.  Sometimes you can only go to CAP halftime, but other years you can go to CAP fulltime.  Think about your contribution over 20-30 years of time.  Any good squadron commander will work with you and keep you involved as much as you can be.  Wing and National don't come around and take roll to see who is or isn't attending the meetings.  When working with a voluntary organization, one must be flexible and take what one can.  I know some members will say you have a duty to make every meeting, but let's remember that there are some pilot types that make one meeting a month and are still contributing.  It truly depends upon your squadron commander and usually he/she will work with you.  If not, transfer to my squadron.

[capchiro]

CaptLord makes a good point about getting your own lawyer.  Most don't know it, but your squadron legal officer owes his/her allegiance to National and not the local commander.

[jimmydeanno]

I have found that the approving authorities tend to not want to do them, even for legitimate reasons, opting for the hope of non-renewal.

CASE 1 (true case): Cadet accuses CAP Seniors and cadets of sexual violation (a felony mind you), racism (some areas considered a hate crime) and favoritism (just not fair).  IG complaint filed.  CAP seniors & cadets accused are suspended for 90 days pending the outcome of the investigation. No response on findings of IG complaint, had to request that members involved were re-instated.  Cadet making accusations is still allowed to participate in CAP.

My thoughts:

1. If accusations were found to be false by IG, cadet should have been 2B'd for committing a crime (slander and libel), and making a false claim.

2. If accusations were found to be true by IG, the police should have been notified in the first place.  No report was ever filed with the authorities by CAP or this cadet's parents.  And if the accusations were true, why, as a parent would you continue to send your child to the meetings?  This leads me to thought 1.  

3. In either scenario, IMO, at least one person should have been 2b'd - but I was not the approving authority.

CASE 2(true case): CAP van stops at gas station on way to activity.  Male cadet gets out of van, goes into restroom and returns with a prophylactic.  Upon re-entry into the van, proceeds to give this item to a female cadet and tells her to take it so she can "F" the cadet next to her.

Case of sexual harassment and conduct unbecoming...

IG Investigation placed, no finding ever made. Female cadets parents withdraw cadet from program.

Needless to say, I am rather upset by the way 'issues' are handled, and wish I was the approving authority on these things.  But IMO those are two scenarios that would warrant a 2B for disciplinary reasons.

[Eclipse]

I have had a few experiences. in one , a cadet tried to run another cadet off the freeway with his car...twice, after being warned that murdering ones brother cadets was frowned upon....Fortunately, he voluntarily resigned before the 2B process could go through.

I have heard way too many stories like this, and view it as part of the problem.  I know that this seems like the easier way for everyone, but with no 2b in the jacket, and the terrible record keeping CAP has, there is nothing from keeping a member like this from coming back in a year to a different unit and causing more problems.

Especially in a case like this, better to handle it right away and close the issue for good.

We had a Senior Member go "little league dad" on us, and make death threats against  seniors, cadets , etc. He wrote letters to the President, the Air Force, Etc. CAP initially did not offer our Squadron much support, instead trying to do everything to blow us off. We ended up contacting Dwight Wheless ( May he live forever in the Halls of Valhalla!) who set the legal big dogs in motion and 2b'd the senior. ( On a side note, the former SM tried to come back to meetings as a "parent, not a member" and the process started nearly from scratch again!) I could write a book about that one!

Not to oversimplify this, but to me its an easy fix - 911.

And I would LOVE to read that book.  Sounds like you've had some real gems... 

[mikeylikey]

I have used the form for a member who requested resignation.  He decided he "hated" the Wing leadership and wanted no part of the program.  He later rejoined in another wing.

[ColonelJack]

My own experience with CAPF 2b is somewhat different -- I was almost on the receiving end of one.

In the mid 1980s, the squadron I belonged to went through a change of command for the third time in two years.  The founding CC had taken a job in another state (where he thrives in CAP today, good on him!) ... the next CC was transferred by his church to Saipan or somewhere like that ... and the fellow who took his place was a really nice guy -- just a lousy commander.  He decided to do things his way instead of by the regs, and with each successive change, I became more and more irate.  I was unit Admin, Personnel, PAO, and Deputy CC for Cadets all in one, and he tried to turn our CAP unit into the old Army unit he used to serve in.  He even promoted himself to captain and wore the bars, though he was still officially a 1st Lieutenant on the SMTLR.

When, after change upon change that directly violated regulations, he allowed a 35-year-old SM to wear Chief Warrant Officer insignia because the guy didn't want to be an officer, I told the CC (privately, politely, and respectfully) that he was in violation of regs, and which regs he was violating.  His response?  A 90-day suspension from unit activities -- for me -- in writing, copy to wing, copy to region, information copy to National HQ.  (Seems he didn't like being told these things.)  And if I said one more word -- one more word -- about "those [darn] regulations," I would be 2b'd.  He had the form filled out and signed ... just needed me to open my trap one more time to date it and send it off.

Rather than accept this sitting down, I wrote my own response to him -- copy to wing, copy to region, copy to National.  Within a week, a surprise IG inspection of the unit was conducted, and he was removed from command.  I was reinstated, and he was "encouraged to let his membership lapse."  He was also demoted to 2nd Lt for promoting himself.

Nice guy ... lousy commander.  And I almost ended up taking the fall for his misdeeds.

Five years later, I was named CC of the unit, where I served for six years before moving up to Group and then retiring.

Nice, huh?

Jack

[Pumbaa]

This is one of the more constructive and informative threads i have seen.. I really appreciate what is being.. and how... discussed...

So for me to put this to the lowest common denominator, and because no one else has said it...

2B or not 2B, that is the question!

The answer is... only as the last , of the most final possible resorts, and docment, document, document..

Did I say document?

[RogueLeader]

Your last transmission was garbled.  I do believe you said "Document"  Is this correct???  Please resend your last transmission.

[Major Carrales]

Thank Richard, I like to post meaningful threads whenever possible.

I have a problem with 2b'ing a cadet that can't show up for whatever reason.  Yes, I know the regs prescribe a set number of missed meetings, however, I chalk it up to Commander discretion.  Citing a problem that a person had with a 2b 25 years ago, I shutter to think that a cadet who's home life prevented his attendance would be "blacklisted" in CAP.  Suppose this cadet wants to return years later as a SM when they chart their own course and is "flagged."

I am more apt to let their membership lapse.

I would apply a 2b in the following circumstances...

1) CAP Officer/Cadet initiates violence, real threats of violence
2) Drug Usage
3) Theft of unit or personal property
4) Serious offense outside of CAP (child abuse, murder, assault, rape etc)
5) Anti-PAO- talking smack about the unit to the media or the like
6) most likely having been ordered to 2b someone by Group or Wing
7) blatant safety violations
8 ) after a long chain of due process for minor offenses such as meeting disruption (well documented)
9) failure to carry out a directive that leads to injury, loss of property or catastrophic failure of a program
10) practices of a nature too unspeakable to be written here


The notion that these things are not to be taken lightly is my goal.

[Eclipse]

10) practices of a nature too unspeakable to be written here

..such as...?   

[Major Carrales]

10) practices of a nature too unspeakable to be written here

..such as...?   

False Demagoguery, Five Minutes of Hate, Room 101...you know, the dispicable stuff!!!

[RogueLeader]

Room 101...

Is that like Area 51?

[Major Carrales]

Room 101...

Is that like Area 51?

Altered from Orwell's 1984...

"You once asked me, Aaron, what was in room 101. I think you know. Everyone does. The thing that is in room 101... is the worst thing in the world. "

[Eclipse]

Room 101...

Is that like Area 51?

Altered from Orwell's 1984...

"You once asked me, Aaron, what was in room 101. I think you know. Everyone does. The thing that is in room 101... is the worst thing in the world. "

I've trained myself to see as many lights / fingers as necessary, on command.  You'd be amazed how handy that can be these days...

[ColonelJack]

"And if Maxwell says two and two is five ... ?"

Jack

[RiverAux]

I only have 2nd hand knowledge of 1 senior member getting a 2b and somewhat more reliable knowledge of cadets getting them, primarily either for essentially dropping out of the program or becoming incredibly disruptive to the program (talking back to senior members, not following orders, etc.).  Don't recall it being a long drawn out process.  I guess it could be if the 2b was appealed. 

[mdickinson]

Whatever happened to CAPF 2c (non-renewal)? I always figured a form 2c was probably used more often - for instance,
- When someone has made a real nuisance of themselves, but is not such a threat to the unit that they merit a 2b
- A cadet sponsor member whose cadet is no longer a member
- etc.

Now that form 2c no longer exists, is it even possible to simply non-renew someone, or is a 2b the only option?

[JohnKachenmeister]

If a person has demonstrated through his behavior that he should not remain as a cadet or officer in CAP, we OWE it to the organization togo through the 2b process.

Otherwise, he simply joins another group or wing.

[mdickinson]

I told the CC (privately, politely, and respectfully) that he was in violation of regs, and which regs he was violating.  His response?  A 90-day suspension from unit activities -- for me -- in writing, copy to wing, copy to region, information copy to National HQ.  (Seems he didn't like being told these things.) 

And if I said one more word -- one more word -- about "those [darn] regulations," I would be 2b'd.

Wow, that's incredible - I had a very similar experience once! I had the same (private and polite) conversation with a squadron commander in [a wing I used to participate in]. I explained all the regs that were being broken (sending out 15 year old cadets with no 101 cards for ES duties that require a minimum age of 18; awarding "FIND" ribbons to ground teams for finding a practice ELT during a SAREX(!), etc.) and was met with a similar response.

In my case, the squadron commander being corrected was a bit more crafty. Instead of writing a direct memo like your commander did, she told me that I should butt out of her squadron's affairs - but that I was welcome to participate in the next SAREX, where she would be MC. (Yes, it was that long ago, it was still called MC.)

When I showed up at the SAREX to participate as a mission pilot, the MC sent me up in a plane with no DF, accompanied by an "observer trainee" and a "scanner trainee" from her squadron (neither of whom, it turned out, had any training or 101Ts to serve in those positions), with instructions to search a grid in a far corner of the state. The "observer trainee," having no radio experience at all, was an exceptionally poor communicator, and our search of the grid yielded nothing. We could hear reports from another CAP aircraft, 30 miles away, DFing the one practice ELT that was out that day. Having no DF, I did a few wing nulls to see where it was coming from, and reported back an accurate bearing.

After the sortie, the sqdn commander wrote to the wing CC, saying I was clearly unqualified as a mission pilot, because

• My communications with the ground team were very poor
• I had failed to fly to the practice ELT (30 miles away from my assigned grid), and
• My scanner "had felt nauseous" during the wing-null steep turns (what unqualified, untrained scanner wouldn't?)

What a brilliant set-up! Sure enough, I was summoned to wing HQ a few days later, where the wing CC (not a pilot) suspended my 101 card and flying privileges. It took a form 5 ride, then a form 91 ride (both at my own expense), then three months of waiting, to get them back!

I steered clear of that squadron after that...and soon after, found another wing where participation would be less fraught with danger. The squadron commander served several more years before moving up to a wing staff position...

Just writing about it now, 8 years later, gives me the willies. 

[Pumbaa]

Funny you just posted Malcom, I was scanning your site a few minutes ago...

BTW what ever happened to that squadron commander?

[ZigZag911]

The 2C (non-renewal) was eliminated, I think 6 or 7 years back, because it was too open to misuse (grudges, personal dislike -- I know, who could imagine CAP officers behaving thus?!?)....also, I think the JAG types were concerned that it was too difficult to defend if it came to legal action, since the reasons were often vague at best.

During my multi-year tenure as group CC I 2Bed exactly two officers, for finance irregularities, the last straw in a series of regulation transgressions by a squadron CC......my predecessor had terminated a couple of people, generally for outrageous actions subsequent to counseling and other attempts at remedial action...these included a hazing incident.

2Bs, in my view, are our last resort, to be used only when someone becomes so disruptive to the organization, unit and mission that they are depriving others of their rights/benefits.

With cadets especially we tried every alternative approach first....in line with regulations, which describe disciplinary procedures as needing to be "progressive" (start small, build up).

With regard to the 2Bed senior showing up & disrupting unit meetings 'as a parent', we had that happen a couple of times -- it usually stopped very quickly when the state's dim view of trespassing (and our willingness to have it enforced) was discussed.

Parents/guardians were always welcome to observe -- or, if unhappy with how things were going, to take their cadet home at any time and address the matter later with the unit commander or group HQ.

Interference, however, was never tolerated.

[sardak]

I was A party, not THE, party to four 2b actions because of my staff function and/or being in the wrong place at the wrong time.  In all four it was the wing commander that brought the action against a wing member who was not a member of wing staff.

All of them were ES related.  One was a case of bad judgement that was deemed to be a major safety issue on an AFAM.  One involved questionable paperwork and funds.   One was deemed gross insubordination involving a government requested mission and a particular ES asset.  One was repeated failure to follow directions and an assortment of other issues that collected over time.

Only the last case resulted in a member actually being 2b'd.  Two of the others were "overturned" during the appeal process and one was abandoned due to the recognition, once everyone cooled off, that there wasn't much of a case.

In one case I was called to present evidence by both the 2b-ee (member) and the 2b-er (wing).  That was interesting to say the least.

Mike

[Major Carrales]

In terms of a 2b, is there a "hearing" that accompanies it? 

As an aside...

I got a mental image just now of a panel of service coat clad Wing Level Field Grade Officers, with a Service Coat clad Captain serving paperwork to the panel and a Service Coat clad "2b-ee" sitting in a center seat....er, or was thay an episode of Star Trek?

[IceNine]

I too would be extremely reluctant to 2B especially a cadet because that also has the potential to surface if they choose to serve our country.  There is always the option of the CC sending a letter to nationals saying they would like a non-renewal issued.  Which basically means that commander is no longer accepting that person as a member but does not feel it necessary for them to be black listed.  Sort of a thanks but no thanks gesture and the member then has the option of finding a CC that will accept their membership or they are terminated and not allowed to renew until they do.  I cannot find the documentation for this but I have been apart of one such case

[Al Sayre]

In terms of a 2b, is there a "hearing" that accompanies it? 

As an aside...

I got a mental image just now of a panel of service coat clad Wing Level Field Grade Officers, with a Service Coat clad Captain serving paperwork to the panel and a Service Coat clad "2b-ee" sitting in a center seat....er, or was thay an episode of Star Trek?

I think that was The Caine Mutiny

[JohnKachenmeister]

In terms of a 2b, is there a "hearing" that accompanies it? 

As an aside...

I got a mental image just now of a panel of service coat clad Wing Level Field Grade Officers, with a Service Coat clad Captain serving paperwork to the panel and a Service Coat clad "2b-ee" sitting in a center seat....er, or was thay an episode of Star Trek?

I think that was The Caine Mutiny

35-3 is the regulation that governs it, and yes, the proposed member has a right to a hearing.  The regulation specifies who must conduct the hearing, but it generally is the next higher level of command.  A minimum of 3 officers equal or senior in grade to the proposed member must hear the evidence and make a recommendation to the commander.

If you are on a group or wing staff and have the duty of arranging this, I suggest having 5 officers, just in case the proposed member wants to challenge one or two for cause.  (Colonel Smith is my ex-wife's cousin, and never liked me...")  You can follow summary procedures, or the commander can appoint an officer to represent CAP in the presentation of evidence. 

The proposed officer can have legal counsel, military counsel, or may represent himself.  He has the right to cross examine witnesses, but there are no other established procedures or rules of evidence.  That means both sides can get away with introducing hearsay.  Testimony must be sworn, and the President of the Board in empowered to administer an oath.

[Major Carrales]

Kach, how often is this done?  Do CAP Officers and Cadets realize they have this option?  In my nearly ten years in CAP I have never heard of such a hearing haing been assembled in my area.

[RiverAux]

35-3 (6) says that not all members who get a 2b have the appeal option.  Only cadets who got it for misconduct or senior members who got it "for cause".  So a cadet discharged for missing 3 consequtive meetings (which is a listed cause for 2b) without an excuse does not get an appeal hearing.  So most causes for cadet 2bs can't be appealed though most senior member "causes" can be appealed. 

[arajca]

I too would be extremely reluctant to 2B especially a cadet because that also has the potential to surface if they choose to serve our country.  There is always the option of the CC sending a letter to nationals saying they would like a non-renewal issued.  Which basically means that commander is no longer accepting that person as a member but does not feel it necessary for them to be black listed.  Sort of a thanks but no thanks gesture and the member then has the option of finding a CC that will accept their membership or they are terminated and not allowed to renew until they do.  I cannot find the documentation for this but I have been apart of one such case

Actually, the "non-renewal option" has been removed. According to unofficial sources, commanders were submitting non-renewal actions without notifying the member. Since there was a time frame for appeals, very few of these non-renewed members were able to appeal because appeal period had expired.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Kach, how often is this done?  Do CAP Officers and Cadets realize they have this option?  In my nearly ten years in CAP I have never heard of such a hearing haing been assembled in my area.

Since you don't actually lose any money, most officers do not appeal an elimination action. 

[Westernslope]

I am sure there are members on this board who at some point or another messed up as a kid. It is part of being a kid.

I think unless it is a very extreme case, a 2B for a cadet is almost an abuse of power. Yes, the Commander has the option based on the regs but often the misbehavior is due to immaturity and absenteeism is due to a gazillion other things. Often as the kids grow up and learn a few life lessons, they can make outstanding leaders  

IMO it would be better to schedule a joint conference with the parents and the Chaplain to tell the cadet that this is not the right program for them. Then just ask them to leave. Most kids do not stay where they are not wanted. If they still want to stay, this is a good time to lay down the ground rules and explain what punitive actions can be taken if behavior does not improve.

[BillB]

As mentioned, when you 2B a cadet, that ends forever his being able to rejoin as a Senior or in another Squadron. Just because Little Johnny doesn't show up for a few months doesn't mean he's quit CAP or that he needs to be 2B'd. Why has he been missing meetings? Does he have a part time job? His parents get home from work late and can't drive him to a meeting? To many Commanders over the years abuse their authority by 2B'ing a cadet without any knowledge about the cadet.
The two Termination Board hearings I was involved with, once as Board Chair, have been a farce. Only myself and one other member of the Board listened to the evidence, we voted not to terminate, but the other three Board members bowed down to the commander bringing the termination action. Many of the Board members had their mind made up prior to the hearing, or the politcs of the Wing were involved. Most members do not appeal as they see no way to get a fair hearing since the termination Board action tends to bias higher headquarters appeal process.

[RiverAux]

Just because Little Johnny doesn't show up for a few months doesn't mean he's quit CAP or that he needs to be 2B'd.

I personally don't care very much if an inactive member stays on the rolls till their dues run out, but the fact does remain that it is a specific cause for cadet disenrollment if they miss 3 meetings in a row without an excuse.

[ZigZag911]

Just because Little Johnny doesn't show up for a few months doesn't mean he's quit CAP or that he needs to be 2B'd.

I personally don't care very much if an inactive member stays on the rolls till their dues run out, but the fact does remain that it is a specific cause for cadet disenrollment if they miss 3 meetings in a row without an excuse.

Perhaps it is time to consider another standard; maybe attendance should only apply toward time in grade (if you miss a meeting without an excuse, the clock goes back a week).

[JohnKachenmeister]

That is really hard to enforce on cadets.  Much of the time their non-attedance is due to factors beyond their control.  And, if they fail to renew, the problem takes care of itself. 

You should only use the Termination option in misconduct cases.

[ZigZag911]

I agree, John, 2B is for misconduct....which is why I'd like to see '3 strikes and you're out' removed for cadets

[RiverAux]

I think you're missing the key word:  "excused"  I've known many, many cadets who had to take a leave of absence from the program for valid reasons.  In fact, that is fairly common.  The thing is that they approached their leadership before hand and got it worked out. 

However, if a cadet just stops showing up and doesn't bother to inform the leadership, thats a different story. 

[Al Sayre]

A 2b does not automatically prevent someone from rejoining except for Cause or Misconduct.  Note that a Voluntary Resignation is also possible as is terminating a Cadets membership for Marriage, Military Service etc.  These do not cause an automatic exclusion from future membership.

[RiverAux]

When I was a cadet I eventually dropped out of CAP.  I know I told the seniors I was leaving, but don't know if they put a 2b in for me or just let my membership lapse.  In either case it didn't prevent me from rejoining about 12 years later. 

[Pumbaa]

Am I missing something?

This is a volunteer organization!!! 

Youth have enough things going on with their lives as is.  Activities and mandatory and changing demands on their time for school.. School is the priority. Family is a priority...

I cannot imagine 2b-ing a cadet because of attendance.  If they miss a meeting, then you have another cadet call and/or email, basically saying "sorry we missed you, here's what went on this week.. will you be back next week?"  It always comes out, why they are not there.

If they are leaving just let the membership lapse... No harm to foul...

My daughter and I just missed 7 weeks due to commitments this year, I missed 8 weeks last year when I uprooted my family when I started a new job and relocated.  They knew things were up but I did not tell them when I was coming back, that was the least of my worries... BTW I still attend the same squadron over an hour away vs one 15 minutes away from my new home!

We have enough things going on to let a volunteer organization dictate what we do and have to worry about getting a 2b.

We have some old time members in our squadron who NEVER show up but pay their dues every year.. We have them on an inactive status, but do not 2b them.

I agree, with Zig and John, 2B is for misconduct...

ETA: Just remember if a person is not showing up, they are not getting the training, so you cannot put them in activities such as ES, etc...

[SARMedTech]

At any point during a 2B hearing, is it appropriate to get all red in the face and scream:"YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!"   Just curious.

[Pumbaa]

SARMed, the answer is YES.. But only when the person is a stooopid Jackhole and you have gone through the 12 step proceedure before getting red in the face.

[RiverAux]

My daughter and I just missed 7 weeks due to commitments this year, I missed 8 weeks last year when I uprooted my family when I started a new job and relocated.  They knew things were up but I did not tell them when I was coming back, that was the least of my worries... BTW I still attend the same squadron over an hour away vs one 15 minutes away from my new home!

So, you folks did it right -- you told the leadership you had some big changes going on and wouldn't be able to participate for a while.  So, no real probability of your daughter getting a 2b. 

Now, would it have been ok if your daughter had just disappeared for 2 months with no word to the squadron?

Like it or not we expect a lot more of our cadets than from our senior members and if they go AWOL (which is exactly what we're talking about), shouldn't there be consequences?   

[Hawk200]

A 2b does not automatically prevent someone from rejoining except for Cause or Misconduct.  Note that a Voluntary Resignation is also possible as is terminating a Cadets membership for Marriage, Military Service etc.  These do not cause an automatic exclusion from future membership.

Why would you terminate a member for military service? I may have missed it, but the only thing that I ever recall reading on the military service aspect was that it had to be extended active duty, and then the individual was supposed to put in a senior application with transfer from cadet status. Don't remember anything about terminating them.

[DeputyDog]

A 2b does not automatically prevent someone from rejoining except for Cause or Misconduct.  Note that a Voluntary Resignation is also possible as is terminating a Cadets membership for Marriage, Military Service etc.  These do not cause an automatic exclusion from future membership.

Why would you terminate a member for military service? I may have missed it, but the only thing that I ever recall reading on the military service aspect was that it had to be extended active duty, and then the individual was supposed to put in a senior application with transfer from cadet status. Don't remember anything about terminating them.

Because some cadets do not want to cross over to the dark side. If they refuse to become a senior member (officer), then what do you do with them?

[RiverAux]

Also, you have to be discharged from the cadet program if you join the active duty military. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I have NO idea why, with everything else a commander has to do, you would do a termination action on a cadet for missing meetings.  IF he misses meetings, there are two possible outcomes:

1.  He will miss them from now until the end of time, and at some point cease to be a member.

2.  He will return, be told he should have communicated his situation with the chain of command, resume his training, and we all go on with our lives.

How does a termination action improve on either of these two outcomes?

[Al Sayre]

My point is, that a 2b is not necessarily the end of the world or the end of someone's participation in CAP.  It is a multipurpose form that probably should be used more often to document when and why people leave the program, rather than just letting their membership lapse.  It could eventually make a difference in the retention rates if used properly to address why people left at the national level rather than just thousands of "non-renewals"...

It's not a really hit against your program or the person if a cadets membership is terminated for marriage, military service, moved, failure to maintain academic standards, voluntary resignation etc., and helps to unskew the statistics.  On the other hand, if the majority of terminations are for lack of interest, failure to progress, misconduct, then you may have a problem in your program.

The Officer Side side of the form is a different story, since there are only 2 choices, voluntary (which would include job, moving, school issues etc.) and For Cause which is punitive in nature.  

In my opinion, we probably should have 2 different forms, one for voluntary resignations of the non-punitive nature, job, school, military service, marriage etc. and another that is specifically for disciplinary actions, both Officerr and Cadet.  The Squadron should be filling out one or the other whenever someone leaves or is tossed, to track the reasons and try and stem the flow of non-renewals.

[MattPHS2002]

Now I have to ask, why does it really matter if a Cadet is married and/or in the Military, especially the military, aren't they usually the type of role model we want for cadets?

[Al Sayre]

If one is married or in the miliary, they are considered an adult, and no longer eligible to be a Cadet.  This kind of makes sense based on the restrictions we place on our Cadet members, it is unlikely that a person who is married or in the military would want to be placed under those restrictions anyway.  YMMV...

[Major Carrales]

If one is married or in the miliary, they are considered an adult, and no longer eligible to be a Cadet.  This kind of makes sense based on the restrictions we place on our Cadet members, it is unlikely that a person who is married or in the military would want to be placed under those restrictions anyway.  YMMV...

I agree, a Married or Military "cadet" is and adult and would now likely best serve CAP as an adult CAP Officer.

However, a 2b is often seen as a mark of dishonor...like a court marshal and less than honorable discharge.  There needs to be, in my opinion, a different form and procedure for those issues.

[mdickinson]

At any point during a 2B hearing, is it appropriate to get all red in the face and scream:"YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!"   Just curious.

In my experience as a wing director of safety, this type of hubris is usually displayed only during Mishap Investigation Board hearings. We once had a situation eerily similar to the one in the movie.

There was a full-blown official 2b hearing (as described below) held in these parts about 10 years ago, and I understand a similar situation happened there - tempers were high, and the board chairman eventually had to instruct the "prosecuting" legal officer to take a seat and simmer down.

[Ned]

If one is married or in the miliary, they are considered an adult, and no longer eligible to be a Cadet.  This kind of makes sense based on the restrictions we place on our Cadet members, it is unlikely that a person who is married or in the military would want to be placed under those restrictions anyway.  YMMV...

A brief off-topic clarification:

The concept of "cadethood" is unrelated to the concept of "adulthood."

The definition of the word "cadet" is that of a military student.  And one can certainly do that at almost any age.

The definition of the word "adult" (currently) in the US is anyone who has attained their 18th birthday.

Both CAP and the US Armed Forces have cadets below and above the current age of majority.


If Uncle Sam doesn't have a problem with cadets over the age of 18, I'm not sure why we should.

Now back to your 2b thread, already in progress.

[JohnKachenmeister]

If one is married or in the miliary, they are considered an adult, and no longer eligible to be a Cadet.  This kind of makes sense based on the restrictions we place on our Cadet members, it is unlikely that a person who is married or in the military would want to be placed under those restrictions anyway.  YMMV...

I agree, a Married or Military "cadet" is and adult and would now likely best serve CAP as an adult CAP Officer.

However, a 2b is often seen as a mark of dishonor...like a court marshal and less than honorable discharge.  There needs to be, in my opinion, a different form and procedure for those issues.

I agree, Sparky.  It is not intended to be, but it is so perceived.

[Hawk200]

However, a 2b is often seen as a mark of dishonor...like a court marshal and less than honorable discharge.  There needs to be, in my opinion, a different form and procedure for those issues.

I would agree. If you sign up, and your CAP commander says: "You're gone!", that isn't right.

I thought there was a more or less automatic transfer to senior. The way the reg reads, you'd think the person was an undesirable, the way the various reasons for automatic loss of membership is laid out.

[AlphaSigOU]

No automatic transfer of status from cadink to the dark side. If a cadet turns 21 and has not applied for senior membership by their birthday, they're dropped from the cadet rolls. If their cadet membership has not expired, they can switch over the balance of their membership to senior status at no charge.

[MIKE]

IIRC it used to automatically transfer to SM at 21, but this is no longer possible since fingerprints are now required for SM applicants.

[Skyray]

Whoever wrote this needs to inform National about that first sentence.  I am in total agreement with the remainder, having had the bitter privilege of experiencing it.  The first I found out about it was when my early renewal was sent back eight months after the 2C.

Actually, the "non-renewal option" has been removed. According to unofficial sources, commanders were submitting non-renewal actions without notifying the member. Since there was a time frame for appeals, very few of these non-renewed members were able to appeal because appeal period had expired.

The worst offender of this is your now intrepid leader who is trying to become "Dictator for Life."  Someone should go back and see how many non-renewals and 2Bs actually have his stamp on them.

[Sgt. Savage]

Now I have to ask, why does it really matter if a Cadet is married and/or in the Military, especially the military, aren't they usually the type of role model we want for cadets?

Because the regulation says it matters. As a combat vet, I wouldn't want a 18 year old grunt having oversight authority over my 14 year old kid. I can imagine the soldier / cadet getting 2b'd for violation of CPPT (hazing or some such thing).

It's not as if they can't continue to serve the program. They stepped up to the plate and made a commitment to serve, they need to be adults now, not kids.

Save the 2b for those who have wronged.

[ColonelJack]

The worst offender of this is your now intrepid leader who is trying to become "Dictator for Life."  Someone should go back and see how many non-renewals and 2Bs actually have his stamp on them.

He isn't going to be "Dictator for Life" because his push for no term limits for region/wing CCs and one extra term for the National CC was denied.

Jack

[Hawk200]

Now I have to ask, why does it really matter if a Cadet is married and/or in the Military, especially the military, aren't they usually the type of role model we want for cadets?

Because the regulation says it matters. As a combat vet, I wouldn't want a 18 year old grunt having oversight authority over my 14 year old kid. I can imagine the soldier / cadet getting 2b'd for violation of CPPT (hazing or some such thing).

I never thought about, but I'm glad someone did (and posted it for the rest us to consider as well). Many (but not all) people that have entered the military at those ages have a tendency to think they have all the answers, and need leadership then.

Saw some of that at an encampment recently, a former cadet now senior (and an Air Force Reservist) that had some trouble adjusting. Dipping and spitting in front of his flight (he was a tac officer), giving cadets rides in his POV, and a few other issues. Seemed to be the result of a mindset that now being military there was nothing else to learn.

It's not as if they can't continue to serve the program. They stepped up to the plate and made a commitment to serve, they need to be adults now, not kids.

A lesson that some people don't seem to have learned, and should. There is a time for everything, including moving forward.

Save the 2b for those who have wronged.

Can't argue that one.

[Skyray]

He isn't going to be "Dictator for Life" because his push for no term limits for region/wing CCs and one extra term for the National CC was denied.

Jack

And that makes you think the issue is dead?  Remember, this is the player that was relieved as Florida Wing Commander by General Bergman for carrying out personal vendettas and resurrected himself to go on and become National Commander while General Bergman became Colonel Bergman until the Air Force rescued him.  I don't think the fat lady has sung yet