According to an article on CAP News Online, a Luxenborg citzen (Luxenburger?) was recently accepted into one of the overseas CAP units. Apparently he is the first non-citizen that has ever been allowed to join. He eventually got a waiver from the citizenship requirement because DoD lets non-citizens join the military.
Should CAP change its regulations to specifically remove the citizenship requirement or make it a requirement that can be waived depending on the circumstances?
My opinion is "No". Under no circumstances should a non-citizen be allowed to join- unless that person served the US military and was Honorable Discharge.
Unless things have changed in the last few years, I don't think there is a reg that prohibits non-US citizens from joining CAP.
There was an article in the first issue of the Volunteer magazine about a West German Colonel, who had his Gil Robb Wilson Award before he had his American Citizenship.
CAPR 39-2
Cadet requirements:
QuoteCitizenship. Be a citizen of the United States of America or an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence to the United States of America and its territories and possessions or any lawfully admitted non-citizen residing in the United States specifically approved by the National Commander's designee (NHQ CAP/LMM).
1) Those persons in "admitted for permanent residence" status must possess and present a current Alien Registration Receipt Card (Form I-151 or I-551) when making application for CAP membership. If an alien's status changes from "admitted for permanent residence" other then by reason of acquiring citizenship, the alien is no longer eligible for membership.
2) Requests for waiver of citizenship criteria for lawfully admitted non-citizens residing in the United States who were not admitted for permanent residence will be submitted through the wing and region commander along with a copy of the membership application to Membership Services (NHQ CAP/LMM). The waiver, if approved, will be only for the period of residence within the United States.
f. Good moral character.
g. If a former member of CAP, must not have been terminated for misconduct.
h. Be accepted by the unit and higher headquarters.
Seniors:
QuoteCitizenship. Be a citizen of the United States of America or an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence to the United States of America and its territories and possessions or any lawfully admitted non-citizen residing in the United States specifically approved by the National Commander's designee (NHQ CAP/LMM).
1) Those persons in "admitted for permanent residence" status must possess and present a current Alien Registration Receipt Card (Form I-151 or I-551) when making application for CAP membership. If an alien's status changes from "admitted for permanent residence" other then by reason of acquiring citizenship, the alien is no longer eligible for membership.
2) Requests for waiver of the citizenship criteria for lawfully admitted non-citizens residing in the United States who were not admitted for permanent residence will be submitted through the wing and region commander along with a copy of the membership application to NHQ CAP/LMM. The waiver, if approved, will be only for the period of residence within the United States.
Whoever wrote that article was drunk. I had an Australian in a squadron I commanded. He was a legal alien, and that's all CAP required.
Since this guy wasn't even in the US, I think that is where the problem was since he wasn't "lawfully admitted"
I once flew out on a Saturday and got a $100 Luxumburger at a little airport grill.
Great - another PAO on crack.
I personally pushed the paperwork to have a former ATC Brit waiver-ed in as a CAP SM. Unfortunately, due to a college scholarship to the U of Liverpool dropping in his lap we didn't have him for long. I sent his FO epaulets to him so he could be promoted there.
Maybe they meant the first non-citizen in an overseas sqdn.
In Washington, we have had an Austrian join, several Canadians, and a Frenchman. All except 1 eventually became citizens, and all ahve been valued members of the wing.
I processed a Canadian citizen with a green card into my unit a couple of years ago, and it wasn't any harder that any other application. Form 12, fingerprints, a copy of his green card, the check, and we're all set. It took just a little longer to process (still less than a month) and it went smoothly.
Way back when, I had a British kid join as a cadet. (His parents were executives in one of our local international textile companies.) I got the biggest charge out hearing his father introduce me as "Leftenant Bagley."
Jack
Shortly after World War II, a man came to Pinellas Senior Squadron in Florida, and was interested in joining CAP. He was a legal alien admitted to the United States and was working for a startup airline. He said the problem may be that he wasn't a U.S. Citizen yet. He turned in an application, and the paperwork showing he was in the U.S. leaglly, and National accepted his application and issued a CAP ID card. After he was in for six months he asked if he wear foreign military decorations on the CAP uniform. He was told to see the USAF-CAP Liaison Officer to get the answer. So he traveled to Wing Headquarters and talked to the LO who called National and was told he could wear them on the CAP uniform. The next meeting night he showed up with his Luftwaffe pilot wings and a big grin. Several weeks later, the Squadron went to MacDill AFB for a meeting and at the Officers club he gathered a crowd. It turened out there was a USAF pilot that may have shot down the CAP member who was flying a JU-52 over Germany. The bull session lasted long into the night.
Quote from: wawgcap on June 26, 2007, 10:26:57 PM
In Washington, we have had an Austrian join, several Canadians, and a Frenchman. All except 1 eventually became citizens, and all ahve been valued members of the wing.
In the Seattle Composite Squadron, (LtCol. Mangum apparently forgot about us) we have several non-citizens. India, Great Britain, Australia, Russia, and Ukraine are all represented.
I believe our diversity is one of our strengths.
-Seattle Sarge
It's pretty simple to figure out why we have the provisions we do.
Abdula Ima terrorist, non-citizen, unlawfully enters country, joins CAP and presto...has access to military installations. Those that have entered the country lawfully will have had some sort of 'record' created on them.
I remember that ten years ago we had a family from Holland in our squadron.
Quote from: RogueLeader on June 26, 2007, 09:46:05 PM
My opinion is "No". Under no circumstances should a non-citizen be allowed to join- unless that person served the US military and was Honorable Discharge.
Are you seriously that narrow-minded? Take a look at the other posts here and see how plenty of non-US citizens have served CAP well. I sometimes wonder if people from other countries think we really are this arrogant and egotistical.
Seattle Sarg , is correct it is our diversity which strengthen us. We should be careful about who we take, and screen our applicants, but not close our doors to people who were not lucky enough to be born here.
Quote from: M.S. on June 27, 2007, 03:24:38 AM
Quote from: RogueLeader on June 26, 2007, 09:46:05 PM
My opinion is "No". Under no circumstances should a non-citizen be allowed to join- unless that person served the US military and was Honorable Discharge.
Are you seriously that narrow-minded? Take a look at the other posts here and see how plenty of non-US citizens have served CAP well. I sometimes wonder if people from other countries think we really are this arrogant and egotistical.
To be blunt- Yes I am. When we have to go out of our way- as a culture- to accommodate ourselves to their culture so we don't offend them: that is where I draw the line. You go to any other country- you speak their language, you follow those customs. Only here, in the US, it is ok that we have to make it easier for those that move here. I'm tired of bowing to other cultures. If I went to Germany or Japan, I would expect to know some German or Japanese to get around. Here, if they only speak Spanish or Korean, we have to be accommodating to them. I understand that this is America- the "melting pot" of cultures. I really do. I'm glad that they have their cultures, but don't take mine. If a foreign national wants to join, good, but you have to earn it. Our forefathers bled and died for our freedoms, they gave us our rights with their blood, and I give my time and talents for the future of our country. They want to participate, they should have to shed something for the right to wear the uniform of the USAF Aux- whether it is full time or not.
By the way, I do not have anything against those who come here legally, or become American Citizens. I am glad for those who do, and I wish for many more.
RogueLeader,
If you want to be that way...I don't think anyone can join unless they have served in the military and honorably discharged.
I'm tired of accommodating non-ex-military types! >:D
Quote from: RogueLeader on June 26, 2007, 09:46:05 PM
My opinion is "No". Under no circumstances should a non-citizen be allowed to join- unless that person served the US military and was Honorable Discharge.
The non-citizens that are allowed to join are folks who are here legally and most are on the way to gaining US citizenship. They have to be able to speak and read English because our materials are not published in any other language. So CAP is not bowing to their culture, they are change to ours.
It's important also to determine if they have a SSN. Of course, citizens and green card holders do.
I had a long-term exchange student once we wanted to get approved to join as a cadet while he was in the US. Had parental permission, etc. Waiver was proceeding well until it was determined he had no SSN and wouldn't be getting one -- which killed the deal.
Quote from: Westernslope on June 26, 2007, 10:06:53 PM
There was an article in the first issue of the Volunteer magazine about a West German Colonel, who had his Gil Robb Wilson Award before he had his American Citizenship.
I know the gentleman he was in my Squadron when I assumed command, although he is currently assigned to Wing HQ.
Personally, I have no problem with foreign natiionals joining CAP. I would expect the same thing I expect of an American citizen: They do their job to the best of their ability, ask help when they need it, and contribute to the team.
That being said, it's a little hard to tell a foreign national that they can't join a corporation. If we were still the pre-corporate CAP, some people might have had a little more weight to their issue with this being a military auxiliary. Since it is no longer, denying membership to certain groups of people has little justification.
So, to those who stand on the fact that we are a corporation, and no longer always the Air Force Auxiliary, you can't have it both ways. You have to accept corporate behaviours and attitudes. That includes accepting people that are not American citizens.
Just a note of interest...
Two of our non-citizens are going to be assigned as interpreters to the annual Air Mobility Command Rodeo at McChord AFB in July.
A unique service these personnel can provide.
-SeattleSarge
Quote from: SeattleSarge on June 27, 2007, 04:20:52 PM
Just a note of interest...
Two of our non-citizens are going to be assigned as interpreters to the annual Air Mobility Command Rodeo at McChord AFB in July.
A unique service these personnel can provide.
-SeattleSarge
Bravo! (...and what a great CAP News article and media release for CAP!)
I think it's great to have the diversity of foreign nationals, immigrants and non-citizen residents serving in CAP. They certainly bring a wide variety of talents to the organization, of which another language may be just the start!
As to the earlier worries of one particular poster that we're bending over backwards to accomodate immigrants - that sounds like a personal chip. If they're joining CAP, they obviously speak English and are wanting to contribute to
our society in a productive way. What more could you ask?
I say great opportunities for CAP! I wish we had some "members from abroad" in my squadron! :)
Quote from: Pylon on June 27, 2007, 06:23:18 PM
If they're joining CAP, they obviously speak English
Not necessarily, I remember going to COS and a couple of the Puerto Rico cadets had an interpreter with them because they couldn't speak english.
I am in the process of going through the waiver for a non-citizen to join. She is in the U.S. on a student Visa and won't initially be getting a SSN.
JCJ where in the process did not having an SSN kill the deal?
Quote from: Tubacap on June 27, 2007, 07:07:17 PM
I am in the process of going through the waiver for a non-citizen to join. She is in the U.S. on a student Visa and won't initially be getting a SSN.
JCJ where in the process did not having an SSN kill the deal?
NHQ
I don't remember the exact details any more, but it was legit. It was a few years ago, so maybe it's different now.
The Puerto Rico cadets are U.S. Citizens.
Quote from: JCJ on June 27, 2007, 06:23:25 AM
It's important also to determine if they have a SSN. Of course, citizens and green card holders do.
I had a long-term exchange student once we wanted to get approved to join as a cadet while he was in the US. Had parental permission, etc. Waiver was proceeding well until it was determined he had no SSN and wouldn't be getting one -- which killed the deal.
An exchange student would require a NHQ waiver.
Quote from: lordmonar on June 27, 2007, 04:12:11 AM
RogueLeader,
If you want to be that way...I don't think anyone can join unless they have served in the military and honorably discharged.
I'm tired of accommodating non-ex-military types! >:D
We suffer not your slings & arrows, for they do not penetrate our OTV's...
>:D >:D
Here at Tinker AFB (home of the 552nd AWACS Wing), we have had Canadian Air Force personnel (and still do) as members of the squadron located on the base or with Wing staff. In most cases they have been members of the Canadian Civil Air Search and Rescue Association (CASARA) http://www.casara.ca/ (http://www.casara.ca/) and lots of actual SAR experience.
If you go to the link there is an article about Gord Lemon winning the McKee Trophy. Prominent in the first paragraph is mention about CAP and Gordo's invovlement with OK and AK wings. ;D
Quote from: lordmonar on June 28, 2007, 02:41:31 AM
Quote from: JCJ on June 27, 2007, 06:23:25 AM
It's important also to determine if they have a SSN. Of course, citizens and green card holders do.
I had a long-term exchange student once we wanted to get approved to join as a cadet while he was in the US. Had parental permission, etc. Waiver was proceeding well until it was determined he had no SSN and wouldn't be getting one -- which killed the deal.
An exchange student would require a NHQ waiver.
Yes - and the Chain of Command and NHQ staff were very supportive. Unfortunately the lack of a SSN was some kind of administrative detail that made it a non-starter. We planned to solve it by getting him a SSN for identification purposes only, which is possible, but it was going to take so long that there would be too little time left in his exchange tour.
Personally I think if a non-citizen permanent resident wants to join CAP (and is eligible to join the military), I've got no problem with it as they will undergo the same background checks as the rest of us. If CAP was really getting involved with anything "sensitive" I might feel a little different, but that doesn't really seem to be happening.
Quote from: RogueLeader on June 26, 2007, 09:46:05 PM
My opinion is "No". Under no circumstances should a non-citizen be allowed to join- unless that person served the US military and was Honorable Discharge.
Wow...so are you saying that we need to fire our AMO and ship his Canuck butt home? Does he get a refund of his dues that he's paid for the last several years?
I saw the "story" and LOL'd.
We had a FN member when we were still at MCAS El Toro. Obviously was a plant from NZ, trying to get information in the Pre-911 days
We've got another FN (Chilean IIRC) currently. I am unaware of any hiccups when he came in last fall, and would have heard.
Just got off the phone with another member from Switzerland (or Swaziland-never can get my geography right if it's not on a sectional ;D). Didn't think ever to ask him his nationality-even though last night over a frosty beverage he did confess to being a diver in his former residence's Navy. He just came in last June-no problem there either.
Of course these are folks who are in the country legally.
As was previously posted it was probably because it was an overseas squadron.
Our strength does not come from our diversity-it comes from our commonality-commonality of spirit and professionalism. Commonality in respecting each other, and respecting the principles upon which our country is founded.
Fly safe-Avoid papercuts-and keep those dues payments coming in. :)
Matt in CAWG
Remember guys, there are non us citizens serving on active duty in all branches of the armed forces. If they are allowed to serve, CAP shouldn't really be any different.
Regarding overseas squadrons, there are certain additional restrictions in place. All emphasis mine.
Quote from: CAPR 35-43. Charter Policy. Charters will be limited to cadet squadrons and restricted to overseas US Air Force installations. Charters will be granted only upon request of the installation's commander and only where there is potential for a strong, viable unit. Since the success of the squadron depends largely upon the local installation, squadrons will be chartered only where strong base support is assured.
a. Minimum Membership. Minimum squadron membership is fifteen, three of whom must be senior members. Flights will not be chartered.
b. Squadron Commander. Since overseas squadrons operate almost independently, selecting a suitable squadron commander is vitally important. Squadron commanders and their replacements must be active duty members in the grade of tech sergeant or higher and recommended by the military installation commander. Units cannot obtain or retain a charter without a commander who meets these criteria.
5. Membership Restrictions. Membership in overseas squadrons will be restricted to those individuals meeting the membership eligibility requirements of CAPM 39-2, Civil Air Patrol Membership, and are covered under the provisions of the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA).
The SOFA provisions also vary among the host nations (currently only Japan and Germany).
Quote from: LtCol White on June 29, 2007, 08:26:21 PM
Remember guys, there are non us citizens serving on active duty in all branches of the armed forces. If they are allowed to serve, CAP shouldn't really be any different.
Lt Col White is right on the money. At best we're the "part time" USAF. Our standards shouldn't be higher than our parent service. That just doesn't pass the common sense test.
If a non-U.S. citizen can join USAF, he should be eligible to join us.
Now, they still gotta get fingerprinted, and one would hope that CAP puts certain members through a little additional screening behind the scenes. But if they check out, it makes sense to let 'em in.
Quote from: M.S. on June 27, 2007, 03:24:38 AMAre you seriously that narrow-minded? Take a look at the other posts here and see how plenty of non-US citizens have served CAP well. I sometimes wonder if people from other countries think we really are this arrogant and egotistical.
Look in the mirror and don't be narrow-minded about narrow-mindedness. Everyone has the right to an opinion.
Yes foreign citizens are allowed in the Armed Forces but their jobs are restricted. So an open-debate about membership in CAP needs to remain open.
I run a school unit in California. There are a lot of students that would love to become cadets, but can not due to immigration issues. I wish they could learn the same leadership skills and patriotism that our citizen scadets get to.
And of course it would help my squadron membership!
So give them responsibility in the classroom. Get some of the "quicker learners" to teach it to some of the "slower learners"
NOTE: This is not intended as a flame against those whom have trouble learning. It is a fact that there are some that pick up the information faster than others.
For example, in History; I pick up the information very quickly, and can remember all kinds of information, but in Algebra, I am one of the slower ones. I could be a leader in one but not the other. Plus, there are many other challenges to discuss.
That's an interesting side affect of the larger immigration issue. I wonder what NHQ would actually do if you forwarded their application. Have you tried any yet?
Quote from: Tubacap on July 23, 2007, 09:39:42 PM
That's an interesting side affect of the larger immigration issue. I wonder what NHQ would actually do if you forwarded their application. Have you tried any yet?
They would be treated exactly the same...they would deposit their checks and lose their applications....
Capt. Lord
Quote from: CaptLord on July 23, 2007, 10:28:53 PM
Quote from: Tubacap on July 23, 2007, 09:39:42 PM
That's an interesting side affect of the larger immigration issue. I wonder what NHQ would actually do if you forwarded their application. Have you tried any yet?
They would be treated exactly the same...they would deposit their checks and lose their applications....
Capt. Lord
Actually, they would probably return the check, too. I have never had an application returned without the check that went in with it.
As long as they are in the country legally, as with Non-Citizens being in the military, it should be allowed. If they are here legally, but still need to clear some things up before they join, then they wait. Nobody owes them anything regardless of how slow the system is. If your illegal, just be happy your not in jail.
I would like to see any Senior Member booted who knowingly tried to send applications of illegals though to make a political statement or to just see if they could do it. Or system rely's on people doing the right thing, and we dont need members doing their own quality control tests. Our system and our members are burdened enough as it is.
It should be noted though, that if your a non-citizen in the military, you can't be a commissioned officer and you can't hold a security cleareance and there are MOS's you can't serve in.
Quote from: Flying Pig on July 25, 2007, 06:49:29 PM
It should be noted though, that if your a non-citizen in the military, you can't be a commissioned officer and you can't hold a security cleareance and there are MOS's you can't serve in.
There are also certain assignments that are restricted, too.
Quote from: Hawk200 on July 25, 2007, 08:14:53 PM
Quote from: Flying Pig on July 25, 2007, 06:49:29 PM
It should be noted though, that if your a non-citizen in the military, you can't be a commissioned officer and you can't hold a security cleareance and there are MOS's you can't serve in.
There are also certain assignments that are restricted, too.
Happily, you don't need a commission, a clearance, nor one of these special MOS's or assignments to be a productive member of the Civil Air Patrol.
If you did, we'd need to fire most of our members......
When I was the DP for MAWG we had a number of foreign students attending MIT, Harvard, BU, and several other local universities who were allowed to join. It's simply a matter of submitting the application through channels with a letter requesting a waiver. None had green cards only student visa's-Only took about a week longer to process, because of having to get the Region Commander's approval.