Objection, Your Honor!

[MIKE]

I thought state awards weren't supposed to be authorized regardless?

[mikeylikey]

I know I can't wear my state awards on AD.......even though I was NG before I transitioned to AD  through rotc. 

[ZigZag911]

Once again, Kach said it best....we're CAP officers, let's take some pride in who we are, what we  do, and our distinctive gray epaulets that tell folks who we are!

[MIKE]

Wear of state ribbons from the National Guard on the CAP uniform

[Major Carrales]

Come one, folks, these are "rackbuilders," not actual wear.  In theory, a person could build one heck of a rack for their shadowbox and still comply with CAP regs when they wear their uniform.

[LtCol White]

I thought state awards weren't supposed to be authorized regardless?

These were awared FOR CAP duty performance to 50 CAP members . Not earned as a NG members.

[Hawk200]

I thought state awards weren't supposed to be authorized regardless?

These were awared FOR CAP duty performance to 50 CAP members . Not earned as a NG members.

Personally, I got the impression that the allowance for state decs was removed for simple envy. I remember reading a statement somewhere (may have been Civil Air Portal) that many people had the impression that State decs were handed out with far more ease than Federal awards, and therefore Guard members would have far more ribbons than their active duty counterparts.

Ironically, it takes a lot more to get a good many of the State decs than Federal versions. Most Guard people will choose the Federal award. In 18 years of service, I have been awarded fifteen Federal awards/decorations. In that time, I've only ever received one state dec.

[Ned]

To be fair, there are a lot of state decs that have no real Federal counterpart.

In some states you can get a PT ribbon, and some have ribbons for things like "enlisted excellence" that are kinda like, and kind not, the Good Conduct Ribbon.

Not to mention the things like the Drill Attendence Ribbon (with clasps) [Look Ma, no Article 15s for missing drill!], and various Federal Mobilization ribbons, etc.

So, yeah, I'm kinda with you on the "outstanding performance ribbons" as they are pretty similar to their Federal counterparts and sometimes Guard members get to choose whether they want the Fed or state dec.  But some of them are pure "gimmees".

Ned Lee
Cal ARNG, ret.

[RiverAux]

I suspect that it is an oversight.  After all, if we're allowing the wear of JROTC and ROTC ribbons there is no logical reason to not allow the wear of state decorations.

[mikeylikey]

^^  Only while a member of JROTC and ROTC though, right?  As soon as you leave that program or recieve a commission you have to take the ribbons off right?

[MIKE]

Correct.  Ribbons are removed when no longer participating in JROTC/ROTC.

[Eagle400]

I suspect that it is an oversight.  After all, if we're allowing the wear of JROTC and ROTC ribbons there is no logical reason to not allow the wear of state decorations.

I agree with RiverAux.  The 39-1 says that all decorations allowed for wear on the Air Force uniform are allowed for wear on the CAP uniform.  However, for some reason, state National Guard decorations don't fall into that category.  Sounds like the 39-1 is contradicting itself.   

[JohnKachenmeister]

State awards are not authorized on the USAF uniform, except when assigned to the ANG.  Guardsmen on extended federal active duty have to remove their state ribbons.  (I think its active duty periods of 30 days or more, but I'm not sure.)

It MAY be an exception if the state award was given to the member for CAP duty.  You will have to call the venerable Ms. Parker on that one.

[Hawk200]

State awards are not authorized on the USAF uniform, except when assigned to the ANG.  Guardsmen on extended federal active duty have to remove their state ribbons.  (I think its active duty periods of 30 days or more, but I'm not sure.)

AFI 36-2903 says: "Air National Guard (ANG) members wear state decorations when serving in state status but not while on federal active duty."

However, the supplement to AFI 36-2903 published by the Federal level National Guard Bureau states: "ANG personnel on federal active duty status (Title 10) for a period of 179 days or less may wear State awards/decorations."

Then you get to CAPM 39-1, which has one little phrase: "Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority."

The one state dec I recieved was signed off by my company commander, who could have awarded any number of other decorations to me. A company commander, in the grade of captain, who was recognized by the Federal government as a commisioned officer of the United States military.

The way I see it, it was certainly signed off by competent military authority.

[Eagle400]

Well, if that isin't proof that the 39-1 contradicts itself, I don't know what is.  Bravo, Hawk200. 

[ddelaney103]

State awards are not authorized on the USAF uniform, except when assigned to the ANG.  Guardsmen on extended federal active duty have to remove their state ribbons.  (I think its active duty periods of 30 days or more, but I'm not sure.)

AFI 36-2903 says: "Air National Guard (ANG) members wear state decorations when serving in state status but not while on federal active duty."

However, the supplement to AFI 36-2903 published by the Federal level National Guard Bureau states: "ANG personnel on federal active duty status (Title 10) for a period of 179 days or less may wear State awards/decorations."

Then you get to CAPM 39-1, which has one little phrase: "Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority."

The one state dec I recieved was signed off by my company commander, who could have awarded any number of other decorations to me. A company commander, in the grade of captain, who was recognized by the Federal government as a commisioned officer of the United States military.

The way I see it, it was certainly signed off by competent military authority.

Some nice barracks lawyering, there - but it doesn't wash.

The AF says no, but the NGB cuts some slack and says basically "you don't have to rearrange your ribbon rack every time you get orders - just on extended active duty."  Now, this is probably an illegal supp - supp's can make things more restrictive than the reg, but not less restrictive, but I'm not the JAG.

However, dig far enough into "competent military authority" and I think you'll find a Title 10 requirement somewhere.

[RiverAux]

By the way, both publications cited are AIR FORCE instructions, so somebody at the AF had to approve them, they're just contradictory.  I guess CAP has this problem in our DNA as well.

How about CAP modify its regulations to specifically allow the wear of state awards earned by National Guard members?  I don't think the AF would have any problem with that -- after all if an Air NG person on active duty for less than 6 months can keep wearing them, why would they care if a CAP member wears them the 5 days a year or so they are in their blues? 

[JohnKachenmeister]

There was another thread a while back about some award made to CAP members that the NatCom authorized, and that some members objected to.

Personally (And Ms. Parker may disagree with me on this, but that won't be the first time), I think that a state National Guard is, in fact, "Competent military authority" and an award, state or federal, made by the state National Guard to a CAP member for CAP service can be worn.

A state award made to a CAP member for service in the National Guard, cannot be worn.

This is NOT the only contradiction in 39-1.   

[ddelaney103]

By the way, both publications cited are AIR FORCE instructions, so somebody at the AF had to approve them, they're just contradictory.  I guess CAP has this problem in our DNA as well.

How about CAP modify its regulations to specifically allow the wear of state awards earned by National Guard members?  I don't think the AF would have any problem with that -- after all if an Air NG person on active duty for less than 6 months can keep wearing them, why would they care if a CAP member wears them the 5 days a year or so they are in their blues? 

Having done a little more research, I can find no _current_ ANG supp to 36-2903 (  AFI 36-2903/ANGSUP1 is listed as rescinded).  AFI 36-2903 is the only authority on uniforms for the AF/ANG/AFR.  A state can supp the AFI, but it must be more restrictive, not less.

[Hawk200]

However, dig far enough into "competent military authority" and I think you'll find a Title 10 requirement somewhere.

So you're telling me that a National Guard officer isn't competent military authority? And you talk about "barracks lawyering"?

The phrase is taken at face value. Nothing read into it. We'll just address the 39-1 phrase: "Military service ribbons may be worn on the CAP AF-style uniform provided they were awarded in writing by competent military authority."

That pretty much says that if it's officially awarded its legal. It doesn't mention that an officer has to meet a Civil Air Patrol definition of "competent military authority".

Beginning to think that the cases of envy aren't so far fetched.