Physcial Fitness

[DC]

As my wing's CAC Senior Advisor, I hear a lot of complaints about the CPFT - not because the standards are too hard, but because the push-ups in cadence are awkward and the shuttlerun is practically impossible. 

A lot of people I talk to say that the PT is watered down from "when they were cadets."  But I don't think they are - I think they are harder than before.  I remember as a cadet using the 300 point system and each achievement needed a certain number of points to pass.  So for your curry, you'd need something like 40 points out of 300 to pass.  It worked out so that if you could do any of the events and max it out, you didn't need to complete the other two until around your Mitchell Award and really didn't need to do all three until your Earhart.

Over the last few months I've been thinking about the PT situation and revisiting the goal of the program, which is to promote a lifelong habit of fitness.  Do we do that now?  I don't think so, we promote a test.

Anyway, I've noticed that if a cadet joins and isn't very fit at all they are discouraged from even participating in the program because it could take them a year to meet the Curry requirements, etc. 

With that I thought about possibly changing the program to something like...

1) Cadet joins CAP.  There is no standard PT requirement like "12 year old males needs a 9:00 mile for Curry."  But rather, the cadet establishes a baseline fitness level that they're at.

2) The cadet takes the "test."  He runs the mile in 15:00, does 6 sit-ups, 3 push-ups and reaches 10 cm.

3) From there, we set the expectation of improvement between achievements.  So say CAP decides that the improvement should be 2% between achievements the cadet would need to do the following to earn the Arnold Achievement:

Mile: 14:42 (2% of 15:00 is .3 minutes or 18 seconds)
Sit-ups: 7 (we'll round up <1 numbers to at least 1 unit)
Pushups: 4
S&R: 12

This also works well for cadets that already have a high level of fitness because percentages are proportionate to the original amount.  So a kid that runs a 7:00 mile would only need to shave 8 seconds off his mile as opposed to 18 for the other kid.

Now, obviously once you reach a certain point it becomes increasingly more difficult to take more time off.  A person that runs a 5:00 mile is going to have a harder time knocking off 3 seconds than someone that runs a 15 minute mile.

With that in mind there'd be a "max" set so people don't need to be impossibly fit.

The only difficulties that I would see is calculating what each cadet would need to do.  However, this is easily solved with the use of the online promotion system.  When the cadet joins, you enter their baseline and the "system" calculates the needed progression into a nifty chart - you give it to the cadet or it gets emailed to them or whatever and you input their scores from there on.  Voila!

Thoughts?

That is an interesting idea, but I can see issues with keeping track of the criteria for each individual cadet (what is C/Amn Snuffly forgets his sheet?). How about establishing a series of 'brackets' that cadets would fall into with their baseline test. For each achievement they have to move up to the next one, which would be a 2% improvement, or whatever. It would simplify the system a little, at the cost of a small amount of consistency from cadet to cadet... It would still require more record keeping than the current system, but I think it is a viable idea, and would certainly better accomplish the stated goal of the CPFT...

[jimmydeanno]

That is an interesting idea, but I can see issues with keeping track of the criteria for each individual cadet (what is C/Amn Snuffly forgets his sheet?).

That doesn't matter.  The promotions are being recorded online, so you tie it in there.  Make it so the cadet can view their "chart" somewhere easily accessible in e-services so they can reference it, print it, whatever.  All the adminstrator needs to worry about is putting in raw data into the boxes online.

[Always Ready]

When someone can pass PT standards for the active duty military but not for the cadet auxiliary, there is something wrong with the system
...

+1 for making the CPFT mandatory for NCSAs, staff selections, encampments, etc.

These statements seem somewhat inconsistant to me.  So you want to further penalize that older cadet having trouble with the run by keeping them from staff, encampment, and NCSAs? 

The chances of National changing the PT standards so people like me could pass is highly unlikely. I can tell you from experience that when an older cadet has a problem with anything in Cadet Programs, *most* Senior Members will tell them, "If you don't like it, quit or go Senior Member." That's been my experience, YMMV. The chances of me being able to change National standards are slim to none. But the chances of me talking the Wing Director of Cadet Programs into administering a PT test for all those who apply for NCSAs is pretty good.

Regardless of what I think of the standards, I believe that they should be fully enforced at all times. I've seen too many cadets both young and old get picked for NCSAs and other activities that could NOT pass the first phase PT test unless they were at their home unit with their home unit SMs administering the test. It is apparent at any encampment that does PT tests that certain units will stand out from the rest...not always in a good way either. I would rather send a cadet that barely qualifies but meets the standards, than a cadet who is well rounded and can't meet standards. Barely passing is still passing. Barely failing is still failing. Same thing with uniforms, the person may look good on paper and seem to know what they are talking about during the interview, but if they can't wear the uniform properly, would you send them on a NCSA?

[MIKE]

Jimmydeanno would have us do more math... Screw that! 

Not really in favor of such a customized program...  You might be able to get me to agree to get more current data to base the standards off of.  But the get fit or phail... or get a doctors signature is good enough for me. 

[jimmydeanno]

Jimmydeanno would have us do more math... Screw that! 

Again, no math skills required.    Just enter the data, computer does all the work.  Attached is a spreadsheet I just put together to demonstrate.  Enter the data on the "baseline" row and the rest populates.  The cadet gets this chart as part of his e-services record and promotion criteria online.

Note that the spreadsheet doesn't have the "max" built in so you may get some unrealistic requirements with lower miles or high situps, etc.

Having a "customized" PT program is also something that CAP doesn't do but should - "student focused" education.

Have fun!

[BillB]

As a Wing DCP, I saw several excellent cadets fail the Spaatz PT test. Their 20 year old bodies developed differently to make the mile run harder. One cadet always passed the mile run requirements up until he earned the Earhart, which he barely passed. So he dropped from the program knowing he would not pass the Spaatz PT test.
I believe in total I saw 12 cadets fail the Spaatz PT test, and they hit age 21 before they could retry, or just dropped from CAP. I every case the cadets passed all portions of the PT test except for the mile run.
The cadence pushups are also a problem and needs to be changed back to the original allowing cadets to do the pushups as their own pace.

[cnitas]

The chances of National changing the PT standards so people like me could pass is highly unlikely.

Not so sure about that.  I have seen 2 rewrites of the PT program since I have been in CAP.

The chances of me being able to change National standards are slim to none. But the chances of me talking the Wing Director of Cadet Programs into administering a PT test for all those who apply for NCSAs is pretty good.

Again, why?  You have made it clear, and many of us agree that the standards are too high for older cadets.  Why perpetuate a broken system and hurt others who would otherwise be great cadets?  This sounds like a sour grapes issue to me.

Regardless of what I think of the standards, I believe that they should be fully enforced at all times.

Yes, and the standard is that the cadet is tested and signed off at their squadron by either the DCC or CC. 

I've seen too many cadets both young and old get picked for NCSAs and other activities that could NOT pass the first phase PT test unless they were at their home unit with their home unit SMs administering the test. It is apparent at any encampment that does PT tests that certain units will stand out from the rest...not always in a good way either. I would rather send a cadet that barely qualifies but meets the standards, than a cadet who is well rounded and can't meet standards. Barely passing is still passing. Barely failing is still failing. Same thing with uniforms, the person may look good on paper and seem to know what they are talking about during the interview, but if they can't wear the uniform properly, would you send them on a NCSA?

I have seen these cadets as well.  But you are changing your set of facts.  We were talking about a 17-21 yr old who can pass Army PFT standards.  That cadet is not a 'fatbody' and is obviously fit. 
Cadets who are 14 yr old, can't pass Ach. 3 run, and are wearing C/2Lt, are a local leadership problem, and a completely different issue.  Mandatory PT tests at these events would serve no purpose other than to exclude those cadets (Fit 17-21 yr olds) from Wing, Region and National activities.

All that said, Both of my Phase 3 cadets have enrolled in school track in order to meet the run times (good).  Too bad they will miss about 1/2 the meetings and activities during that time since track meets and practice interfere with CAP (Bad, Bad, BAD!).  I hope they retain interest.

[Ned]

The problem isn't that we don't have enough ideas on how to "improve" the CPFT by changing calculations or even changing the events and standards.

Indeed, I'll wager that if we asked 50 experienced CP leaders to modify the CPFt or design a new one, we would come up with pretty close to 50 reasonable ideas.

The current CPFT was a clever solution to the earlier generation of PT issues -- the problem being that the standards were arbitrariliy established based on somebody's bright idea of what a cadet at a given point in the program "should" be able to do.

"I think a Spaatz cadet should be able to run a mile in . . . . 6 minutes.  Yeah, that's the ticket."

"No, these are the epitome of Dynamic American Aerospace Leaders, they should be able to run the mile in five flat."


Or, we based them very roughly on military standards.  Example, when I took my Spaatz test, I was required to run 1.5 miles in 10:15 seconds; since that was what Dr. Cooper's data suggested the top 20% of USAF recruits could do.

(How the data from 18-20 year old USAF enlistees should relate to a 15-16 year old CAP cadet was never very clear.)

So, NHQ wisely began to look for some externally generated and validated PT standards for young people in our age cohort (12-20.99).  The theory was - and is - that the standards would be based on American youth in the same age and gender norms as our cadets.  A real "apples to apples" set of standards.

Unfortunately, there isn't any data that covers that entire age range.   The various military services' standards start at age 17, which would exclude the majority of our cadets.  (And a 12 year old is not just 12/17ths of a 17 year old.  There are significant changes during adolescence that affect things like the ability to run and do exercises.)

But they did find the well documented Presidents Council data.  This was data derived from testing actual American youth across the country.  Two slight problems presented:  First, the data stops at age 18.  Not great, but the data still covers that great kajority of our troops and we can do a little math interpretation for the rest.

Second, the data is based on their particular set of measured exercises -- hence the odd (to us) cadenced push-up.  But although it feels weird, we need to do it exactly as prescribed to make the data valid.

So, NHQ fielded the CPFT which received a lukewarm reception.  After a push up video was posted, and after a lot of experience was generated via hard work in the field, the process seemed to be going well until a great deal of concern was generated about passage rates.  The NCAC and CP officers in the field believed that a large percentage of troops were having trouble with the CPFT and were stagnating in grade as a result.

(The NHQ database which at the time only tracked milestone awards did not show a significant slowdown in milestone achievements, but we figured it may well be a lagging indicator.)

As a direct response to the concerns, the "pass the run plus two out of three events" rule was issued to meet concerns about pass rates.

There are still concerns about the CPFT -- the NCAC has recently proposed significant changes to the CPFT because they believe the standards are too low.



So, if feel free to develop a new CPFT or to modify the existing test.  But I suggest that any modification or new proposal  meet the following criteria:

1.  The test should be easy to administer on a typical unit meeting night.  IOW, it should not take more than an hour to run the squadron through.

2.  The test should not require any specialized equipment to administer beyond commonly available tools like tape measures and watches.  It should not require laptops, lasers, or a swimming pool.  Don't make the Testing Officer pore over multiple tables and perform calculations with her stubby pencil in the dark parking lot.

3.  The standards should be easy to understand.  ("So easy a senior could understand it.")

4.  It should be amenable to winter weather -- IOW, units that meet in areas that commonly accumulate snow should be able to conduct a CPFT.

5.  To the maximum extent possible it should be based directly upon externally generated and validated standards for young people in our age group.

6.  For bonus points, try to make it fun.  


Ned Lee

[caprr275]

Just a FYI the NCAC has drafted a new CPFT idea which goes back to the point based system but still uses the Presidents Council data. Last I head it was being sent on for approval to get it on the winter national board agenda.

I have mixed feelings about this proposal however it has not been released yet (as far as I know of) so I will keep my thoughts to myself for now.

I will post it once it is added and published in the agenda for the WNB

[RiverAux]

Testing with a start at an individual baseline won't work for the simple reason that even a 12-year old can probably figure out that they really need to do as poorly as possible that first time and then will have an easy time of it for the rest of their CAP career.

Those mile run times seem somewhat unrealistic. 

[SarDragon]

The olde joke goes:

"How do you get to Carnegie Hall?"

"Practice, practice, practice."

Now, how you run faster? Run. A lot.

I always had trouble running in HS. A 12 minute mile for me was a major accomplishment. During my time in the Navy, the PFT changed at least three times, and at the time of my retirement, consisted of a 1.5 mile run, a sit and reach, situps, and pushups.

At my last unit, the OinC took PT seriously, and we did our mandatory "grunt and sweat" twice a week. My 1.5 mile time improved from something over 14 minutes, down to a 12:06. That's an 8 minute mile, at 40 yo.

By now, y'all are wondering where this is going. Our cadets aren't running enough. Many expect to do PT a couple of times a month, just like a lot of folks did WIWOAD, and expect to pass an increasingly more difficult PFT. Guess what? Ain't gonna happen.

FYI, I just started running again last week, after a 5 year lapse. I ran and walked about 2 miles. When I was running, it was at a 12 min mile pace. The walking pace was a bit slower. I anticipate getting better as I run more, just like I did 20 yrs ago. Our cadets need to do the same - run more. The plan for me is to participate in a half-marathon in August. More progress reports later, in a different thread.

</rant, thanks for reading>

[kd8gua]

WIWAC, I had a terrible time with PT. I maxed out as a cadet as a C/SMSgt. Oddly enough I never actually passed a CPFT exam.

My PT scores were terrible. My mile runs averaged well over 10 minutes. In high school gym class, we did the Presidential Fitness tests as our final exam for a grade. The last three times I ran the mile for class, the first was a 15:20 or so, the second time the gym teacher told me to not even finish the last lap around the track, because we "had better things to do," and the last time a mile came up in high school, the gym teacher asked me if I even wanted to try it, as he'd rather have me just sit out. We only had gym class freshman and sophomore years of high school. My sit ups were closest to the regs, but still not passing. Push ups averaged about 10-15 towards my end in CAP. I used to opt for the shuttle run, as I could almost pass it. The sit and reach was my worst event. I have terrible hamstrings, more than likely genetic from my father, that I should have gotten a medical waiver for, but never bothered. When I sit with my legs out in front of me, I sit on my tailbone instead of my butt. When trying to do the sit and reach, my back turns into a "C" shape, instead of an "L" shape. As such, the best score I ever got on sit and reach was to actually touch the end of the box.

Before you assume I was some very overweight or sickly cadet, I was not. In high school, I was 6'1, maxed out at 6'4, and my body weight averaged about 150-160 pounds. I was thin and just not in good shape. I personally could not motivate myself to work out without other people around. In both squadrons I was in, the cadet and senior staff both recognized my CPFT issues from the start, and almost "felt bad" for me, and I promoted with failing CPFT scores all the way up to Doolittle. The Squadron Commander at my final squadron eventually told me that either I get in shape or not promote. As such I maxed out at Doolittle, even though I did take both the last aerospace and the Goddard exams.

Did these squadrons break the rules in letting me promote without passing PT? Absolutely. But on the same token, I don't recall too many cadets in either squadron actually passing all of the achievements for CPFT. If either squadron I was in followed the rules, I would have left CAP after 3 years as a C/AB. I know a lot of other cadets would have maxed out at low grades too. The testing officers at the squadrons also believed that the CPFT requirements were too high for most cadets to achieve, especially at the beginning. They followed a guideline of "as long as there is a marked improvement in scores between each testing period, the cadet should be eligible for promotion."

Honestly that's how it should be. Not everyone is capable of being a superman and perfectly in shape. And not everyone has issues that are actual medical conditions.

[SarDragon]

Passing the PFT for Wright or Mitchell is not anywhere close to Superman status. I met the male 17+ Wright requirements at age 54, and could meet all of the male 17+ Phase II Ach 4-6 requirements except the sit & reach at the same time.

Like I said in my previous post, you need to do the things in CAPP 52-18 on a regular, more often than once a twice a month, basis.

[edit to fix the Phase II part.]

[jimmydeanno]

WIWAC, I had a terrible time with PT. I maxed out as a cadet as a C/SMSgt. Oddly enough I never actually passed a CPFT exam.

My PT scores were terrible. My mile runs averaged well over 10 minutes. In high school gym class, we did the Presidential Fitness tests as our final exam for a grade. The last three times I ran the mile for class, the first was a 15:20 or so, the second time the gym teacher told me to not even finish the last lap around the track, because we "had better things to do," and the last time a mile came up in high school, the gym teacher asked me if I even wanted to try it, as he'd rather have me just sit out. We only had gym class freshman and sophomore years of high school. My sit ups were closest to the regs, but still not passing. Push ups averaged about 10-15 towards my end in CAP. I used to opt for the shuttle run, as I could almost pass it. The sit and reach was my worst event. I have terrible hamstrings, more than likely genetic from my father, that I should have gotten a medical waiver for, but never bothered. When I sit with my legs out in front of me, I sit on my tailbone instead of my butt. When trying to do the sit and reach, my back turns into a "C" shape, instead of an "L" shape. As such, the best score I ever got on sit and reach was to actually touch the end of the box.

Before you assume I was some very overweight or sickly cadet, I was not. In high school, I was 6'1, maxed out at 6'4, and my body weight averaged about 150-160 pounds. I was thin and just not in good shape. I personally could not motivate myself to work out without other people around. In both squadrons I was in, the cadet and senior staff both recognized my CPFT issues from the start, and almost "felt bad" for me, and I promoted with failing CPFT scores all the way up to Doolittle. The Squadron Commander at my final squadron eventually told me that either I get in shape or not promote. As such I maxed out at Doolittle, even though I did take both the last aerospace and the Goddard exams.

Did these squadrons break the rules in letting me promote without passing PT? Absolutely. But on the same token, I don't recall too many cadets in either squadron actually passing all of the achievements for CPFT. If either squadron I was in followed the rules, I would have left CAP after 3 years as a C/AB. I know a lot of other cadets would have maxed out at low grades too. The testing officers at the squadrons also believed that the CPFT requirements were too high for most cadets to achieve, especially at the beginning. They followed a guideline of "as long as there is a marked improvement in scores between each testing period, the cadet should be eligible for promotion."

Honestly that's how it should be. Not everyone is capable of being a superman and perfectly in shape. And not everyone has issues that are actual medical conditions.

I'm sorry, but I have a really hard time with what you just posted, not so much the "marked improvement" theory - but the utter lack of regard for the rules of the cadet program, CAP Core Values and lack of ethics in your post.

By your own admission...

...you didn't actually earn any of the achievement awards you wore as a cadet.
...the problem wasn't with the PT program, but with your own lack of motivation (laziness).
...your commanders disregarded the CAP rules and regulations and handed out promotions to those who didn't earn them.

The whole point of the PT program is to promote a lifetime habit of physical fitness.  The way you do that is by adhering to the program, working out more than once a month, not being lazy and trying to meet/beat the established goals. 

If someone has a medical issue that prevents them from completing CPFT, there are waivers.  If the issue is a mental disability, it's still a medically waiverable item.  So, we've eliminated both physical and mental disability.  What's left?  Laziness.  I'm not a big one for promoting because someone is out of shape because of laziness.  You?

[lordmonar]

My problem with the CAP PT program is that there is just not enough time to do it.

The CPF Program is designed to promote a lifestyle of physical fitness but we only do it once a month?(if that often).

I agree a healthy lifestyle is a good thing....but CAP can't be all things.  We do a good try at it....but with the manditory testing, manditory leaders labs, manditory aerospace education, manditory character development....then you throw in ES, DDR, Safety Breifings, OPSEC breifings.....we just don't have the time.

Just doing the PT test takes an hour if you got more then 10 cadets.  But the program tells you that it is more then just doing the test.  When exactly are we supposed to do it?

[jimmydeanno]

Just doing the PT test takes an hour if you got more then 10 cadets.  But the program tells you that it is more then just doing the test.  When exactly are we supposed to do it?

I have ~45 active cadets in my unit.  We conduct the CPFT start to finish in 30 minutes each month, even with the mile run.

Our "testing night" runs down like this on average:

1830-1900: Opening Formation, Drill/Flight Time
1900-1930: Achievement Testing
1930-2000: CPFT
2000-2100: PT Activity/Sport

Sometimes we end up shaving a few minutes off the PT activity because something goes a little over, but still have time to do something physical other than the CPFT.

Maybe I'm just lucky that the "slowest" mile run time for our cadets last month was 8:35. 

It works out pretty well though.

The mile is timed by a senior w/ a stopwatch.  As they cross, their times are shouted out and recorded.
Situps, they pair up and count for each other.  1 minute, swap, 1 minute.  Scores are recorded.
Pushups, take about 2 minutes for the last kid to finish.  Again, pair off, each count for each other.
Sit and Reach, we made 3 sit and reach boxes that run simultaneously, so you get 3 cadets every 15 seconds or so, 12 per minute, 4 minutes total.

So, we'll figure 10 minutes for organized stretching.
12 minutes for running and cool down.
3 minutes for situps
4 minutes for pushups
4 minutes for sit and reach
------
33 minutes, ish?

I supposed that we could put something else in the hour after that stuff and do the sports thing on a different night (more than once per month for PT stuff), but they're already wearing the right clothing on that night...

[kd8gua]

I'm sorry, but I have a really hard time with what you just posted, not so much the "marked improvement" theory - but the utter lack of regard for the rules of the cadet program, CAP Core Values and lack of ethics in your post.

By your own admission...

...you didn't actually earn any of the achievement awards you wore as a cadet.
...the problem wasn't with the PT program, but with your own lack of motivation (laziness).
...your commanders disregarded the CAP rules and regulations and handed out promotions to those who didn't earn them.

The whole point of the PT program is to promote a lifetime habit of physical fitness.  The way you do that is by adhering to the program, working out more than once a month, not being lazy and trying to meet/beat the established goals. 

If someone has a medical issue that prevents them from completing CPFT, there are waivers.  If the issue is a mental disability, it's still a medically waiverable item.  So, we've eliminated both physical and mental disability.  What's left?  Laziness.  I'm not a big one for promoting because someone is out of shape because of laziness.  You?

I understand looking back on it now that what occured was a complete and utter disregard for the CPFT requirements. However, as a cadet, I didn't know what to expect. I full out believed that every promotion time, I would be held back because of the scores, but I was promoted just as much as the other cadets. Am I saying it was right? No. Frankly I would have rather been held back.

Before I was in CAP I didn't do any sort of physical activity at all. I've never been a fan of sports or anything of that nature, so I chose not to play them. Going through CAP, I actually started to get into some of the best shape I had ever been in.

[Fuzzy]

But they did find the well documented Presidents Council data.  This was data derived from testing actual American youth across the country.  Two slight problems presented:  First, the data stops at age 18.  Not great, but the data still covers that great kajority of our troops and we can do a little math interpretation for the rest.

So why does it just slope off at 17 plus?

[SarDragon]

I'm guessing the original sample group was limited to HS students, most of whom are 18 and under.

[wuzafuzz]

I have a big problem with our PT program.  Our cadet program is a citizenship program not just a PT program.  Yet, we tell kids they can't advance in grade AT ALL, or participate in some activities, until they pass the PT test.  While that may be fine for some kids, others who don't join already fit are excluded and become discouraged.  Instead of establishing a brick wall so early in the program I'd prefer to see it ramp up a bit more slowly.  We can encourage fitness without excluding some kids from CAP.

Yes, my opinion is sour grapes.  My son joined CAP with me.  He was a skinny couch potato.  Not a fat body but not speedy either.  He worked hard, practicing the PT events several times a week at home.  The shuttle run, in particular, was a challenge for him.  He could pull it off at home, but when tested on a waxed concrete floor during a meeting he usually didn't make it.  To be fair, some other kids made the time.  After most of a year he had no interest in renewing his membership.  Instead of working with him over time we created a barrier to enjoying the social and academic benefits of CAP.

It's ironic we hold the cadets to challenging standards but refuse to do the same for our senior members.  We invent fat and fuzzy uniforms to parade in front of the cadets while telling them they can't come out to play unless they get with the program.  Really cool double standard there.

I will forever be angry and disappointed with regard to my son's CAP experience.  It's as if we institutionalized peer pressure and label some kids as losers, unworthy of membership.  The youth programs (Sea Cadets and Law Enforcement Explorers) I was a member of as a kid managed to sell us on physical fitness without casting away members with challenges.  It's a shame CAP can't seem to do the same.

Rant over.